Life of Burl Ives

Subject: RE: Life of Burl Ives
From: GUEST,Mountainbanjo
Date: 09 May 11 - 07:32 PM

I have read the transcript of Burl's testimony. It has been blown out of proportion, if you can imagine that. On the extreme end some said he named "hundreds" of people as Communists, and of course everyone knows he pointed the finger at Pete Seeger.

In fact he didn't really name anyone as a Communist. He mentions Pete went to some of the same meetings that he himself went to. That's it as far as Pete goes. That's it, period. When pestered by the witch hunters, he said Richard Dyer Bennett was who first solicited his participation in the Communist Political Association. But without being prompted, he then states that like himself, RD-B had subsequently rejected it.

Then, when pestered by these headhunters, he mentions 3 names of people who were present at some functions-his former publicity man, Allen Meltzer, Ray Ley and Herb Kay. Thats all he says, is that they, like he, were present.

In regards to Mr Meltzer's presence, here is a bit of the transcript.

Mr Connors (Senate Staff member): Is Mr Meltzer a Communist, to the best of your knowledge?
Mr Ives: Well he was there, and I assume he was affiliated.
Mr Connors: Do you have any evidence of his present political affiliations?
Mr Ives: As a matter of fact, I haven't seen him in 3 or 4 years, I have not seen him.

That is as close as he came to any of the things he has been accused of doing in this testimony.

The worst impression I can glean from it is that he may have been scared, maybe even cowardly-certainly he did not put on an admirable or defiant performance like Pete Seeger and Paul Robeson did, respectively. But he was also testifying 3 and 4 year's earlier. No doubt some later testifiers gained strength to be less cooperative from each other, and Burl didn't have the benefit of that. He didn't know what other people were going to say. His was the kind of testimony one might live to regret, because he would have seen in hindsight that he didn't have to cooperate. And it sounds like he did regret it. But there is no evidence in the transcripts that he was out to harm anyone's career or life. He apologizes for mentioning the names he does mention, and says they will have their chance to speak (before the subcommittee). He seems like he was just a bit scared and spineless and trying to be (what he perceived to be ) "a good American" by cooperating. Not admirable, but quite far from how it has been painted.

What is really shameful here is the behavior of the subcommittee in pursuing this line of questioning at all. It is truly disgusting to read in that respect, that any American should have been subjected to this Senate Inquisition about where they were five, six, seven years earlier, what functions they attended, who was there, who invited them, when nobody had committed any crime. It is sickening.

Sorry, its way too long to transcribe. Do what I did if you want to read it, request it from your library's interlibrary loan service.

Subject: RE: Life of Burl Ives
From: GUEST,Bluesman James
Date: 09 May 11 - 08:39 PM

There was an old clip on youtube of Ives singing with Josh White and two other folks. the clip has been taken off (maybe for copyright issues) Shame it was a valuable clip!
I know little of Ives Politics and/or political views.

Subject: RE: Life of Burl Ives
From: Charley Noble
Date: 09 May 11 - 09:26 PM

Mountain Banjo-

Interesting. I've never read the transcripts, only excerpts by others.

"he (Ives) said Richard Dyer Bennett (sic) was who first solicited his participation in the Communist Political Association."

Well, that remark was sufficient to derail much of Richard Dyer-Bennet's musical career, being quoted in RED CHANNELS. It's true that during World War 2 Dyer-Bennet provided musical entertainment for Russian War Relief special events; the Russians were our allies at the time. And he also participated in music benefit concerts for progressive labor groups. He certainly supported Henry Wallace in his progressive campaign for President. But he was never a card-carrying Communist.

After the hearings, Burl Ives' career continued on with greater success.

I thought Burl Ives also identified Tony Kraber, actor and folk singer, as either a Communist or fellow traveler.

Charley Noble

Subject: RE: Life of Burl Ives
From: GUEST,Bluesman James
Date: 09 May 11 - 09:51 PM

http://www.cduniverse.com/search/xx/music/pid/1055046/a/Free+%26+Equal+Blues.htm

Here is something interesting and relevant to the discussion
Josh White and the"Union Boys" Peter Seeger and Burl Ives identified

Subject: RE: Life of Burl Ives
From: GUEST,Alan Whittle
Date: 09 May 11 - 11:05 PM

I had a paperback book by Burl Ives - a collection of folksongs and some tips on guitar playing.

I owe it all to Burl. Thanks to Burl, I knew whether it was a 'dum-ching' song or a 'dum-ching-ching' song,

I was never confused.

Subject: RE: Life of Burl Ives
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 09 May 11 - 11:40 PM

I still have my pb Burl Ives Songbook, Al. Falling to pieces but still regularly refd to ~~ the last time just 3 days ago, when the question of 'piker' as originally a name for a 49-er from Pike County Missouri arose in Quinion's World Wide Words & led me there to look up Sweet Betsy From Pike, which is of course a GoldRush song [note the 'miner' in the last verse] tho Ives does not specify this.

~Michael~

Subject: RE: Life of Burl Ives
From: GUEST
Date: 10 May 11 - 12:24 AM

His comment didnt derail anyone's career-it was the witch hunters who did that. Ives said RDB had rejected Communism and had also stopped going to the meetings SEVEN or EIGHT YEARS BEFORE THE HEARING DATE! He also said that RDB had started going to the lectures around the same time he did. He never said anything about RDB being a prominent or important member or recruiter. But they didn't care about that. They only heard what they wanted to hear. I'm telling ya, its sick.

I don't recall seeing Tony Kraber's name.

I don't doubt Burl was worried about his own career being ruined by the bloodsuckers, that fear seems to come through in his testimony and it was a well justified fear.

---

RDB=Richard Dyer-Bennet

Subject: RE: Life of Burl Ives
From: Charley Noble
Date: 10 May 11 - 07:45 AM

Mountain Banjo-

"His comment didnt derail anyone's career-it was the witch hunters who did that."

Well, I can see how that might look to someone younger than myself and it's partially true. But giving the press coverage of the earlier hearings focused on "Communists" in the movie industry, it should have been clear to Ives what would happen if he mentioned any names as "Communists" or "fellow travelers." Ives was indeed a fine singer and for a while he was a good friend of Dyer-Bennet, Pete Seeger and Woody Guthrie.

"The Witch Hunters" who did the follow-up dirty work were a mixture of super-patriots and self-serving professionals. For example my grandfather who was a well-respected sculptor was also identified at the hearings as someone who signed petitions circulated by "Communists" in the 1930's, and one of the groups that circulated his name was a conservative sculptor group based in Washington, DC, whose members were in competition with him for monument projects; my grandfather won all the lawsuits for commissions that he was denied because of their work but we'll never know how much other work he was denied because project directors were not willing to take the risk of considering such a "controversial" artist. The John Birch Society was one of the Witch-Hunt groups.

Charley Noble

Subject: RE: Life of Burl Ives
From: GUEST
Date: 10 May 11 - 08:59 AM

You are right Charley, I was not around at that time and so all I can do is try to glean intent and meaning from words on a piece of paper. I'm sure there are subtleties that I cant appreciate, not having lived through that time.

Subject: RE: Life of Burl Ives
From: GUEST,GEC
Date: 17 May 11 - 04:28 PM

In regard to Burl's testimony at the Un-American Activities hearings, I lived through the McCarthy era and here is my opinion.   

Burl was just a true-blue American who was reluctantly, but truthfully -- as a Christian publicly swearing before his leaders -- trying to respond to an official inquiry made by what were in reality much-less-than-true-blue Americans. The problem was that small truths about people were warped into big lies by the government.

The liers were not in the witness stand, they were sitting as the judges.   

Was Burl a snitch? In a prison sense, yes: not because he accused people of illegal activities, but because the process considered the legal activities he described to be somehow worthy of government sanctions. Were some of the other artists around him seriously or not-so-seriously flirting with America's 'potential' enemies, yes -- but it was the Senators and others behind the witch hunt who were the reprehensible ones, and without their errors none of the others would have been so villified. What Ives did and what Seeger did would have been non-news if Senator McCarthy had not been so far off the reservation and in charge of a shameful process. It was really an unbelievable tornado of raw, government-sanctioned, media-hyped injustice.

So, as we look back, let's keep the names of McCarthy's poor victims straight. Burl Ives, the so-called "snitch," and Pete Seeger, the so-called "Communist sympathizer," were both among them, in my opinion. They both have my respect.

Subject: RE: Life of Burl Ives
From: Don Firth
Date: 17 May 11 - 05:24 PM

Amen, GEC.

Don Firth

Subject: RE: Life of Burl Ives
From: Charley Noble
Date: 17 May 11 - 09:59 PM

GEC-

We may be getting closer to closure on this one. It's still hard for me not to be bitter on behalf of the people I knew who were truly hurt by this witch hunt. I was only ten or so at the time and was just puzzled by what was happening all around to people I knew and respected. It's unsettling when grown-ups appear to be frightened by what their "government" is doing. It wasn't until I got to college that I learned just how this whole witch hunt happened.

Charley Noble

Subject: RE: Life of Burl Ives
From: John on the Sunset Coast
Date: 17 May 11 - 10:28 PM

In the interest of historical accuracy, neither Ives, nor Seeger were victims of McCarthy. Both Ives and Seeger were called to testify before the House Committee on Un-American Activities...the same committee that had investigated alleged (and real) Communists in Hollywood.

But they never had any truck with McCarthy. Tail Gunner Joe was a senator whose primary targets were alleged (and real) Communists in government service, and his downfall was going after army personnel.

It is interesting, but erroneous, that although these committees had their genesis prior to McCarthy's tenure, the entire 10 year or so period...separate Senate and House hearings...have become known as the McCarthy Era.

Next to Benedict Arnold, McCarthy is probably the most vilified American personality...not without good reason.

Subject: RE: Life of Burl Ives
From: Charley Noble
Date: 18 May 11 - 08:08 AM

John-

You're certainly correct. Sen. McCarthy managed to gain most of the credit for this sorry phase of our history. There were several chairs of the House Un-American Activities Committee (HUAC):

John Stephens Wood, 1949–53
Harold Himmel Velde, 1953–55
Francis Walter, 1955–65

Cheerily,
Charley Noble

Subject: RE: Life of Burl Ives
From: GUEST,Alan Whittle
Date: 18 May 11 - 08:27 AM

very weird business!

You only really get it in fragments over here in England. i've come across references to it in biogs of Humphrey bogart, Josh White, Zero mostel, Paul Robeson, Larry Adler - but i guess a lot of less famous people were involved and suffered as well.

Subject: RE: Life of Burl Ives
From: GUEST,too scared
Date: 18 May 11 - 09:27 PM

Of course Ives was wrong to name names, but listen to what Charlie is saying above. It was not just McCarthy. There were investigations all over. New York City required that teachers and other employees sign loyalty oaths. People lost their jobs and were blacklisted because of rumors and false accusations. I only learned later how frightened my parents had been. They had friends who were falsly accused and also friends who really were communists (idealists). It was dangerous to speak of this in front of children. In the 1970's my mother finally told me about their experiences in the late 1940's and early fifties.
    Lets also remember that the Communist Party actively promoted the singing of folk songs as a way of interesting people in social issues and communism. An interesting recent book is Reds, Whites, and Blues: Social Movements, Folk Music, and Race in the United States, by William G. Roy.
    I dare say that Burl Ives was more influential than the Communist Party in introducing people to folk music, but the Communists did what they could. As a child in the 1940's and fifties I remember "everyone" knew the songs sung by Burl Ives that were cited above.

Subject: RE: Life of Burl Ives
From: GUEST,warren fahey
Date: 18 May 11 - 10:34 PM

Burl toured Australia in the 1950s and was a significant influence on the development of the revival in Australia. To his immense credit he championed Australians looking at their own folk traditions and it seemed to work. He was a big hit in Australia - and big in other ways for he demanded two airplane seats to fit his immense behind. He was the first to popularise Click Go The Shears. I remember hearing him for the first time and still love that fruity old voice.

Subject: RE: Life of Burl Ives
From: GUEST,Page Stephens
Date: 20 Oct 12 - 07:53 PM

You had to have lived through it to understand how accepted anticommunism was in the 1950s and 1960s. Today we tend to look on it as quaint but there was real fear in the air and it took a lot of guts to even work for civil rights. And don't think it's disappeared.
Just look at the tea party signs.

Subject: RE: Life of Burl Ives
From: GUEST,Desi C
Date: 21 Oct 12 - 08:29 AM

I wonder DID ives say he hated children? I only question it because having read Val Doonican's auto biography, who was a huge fan of Ives and when he invited I'ves onto his 70's TV show. Tells how Ives visited his home. Va''s children were fans of Ives songs and Val asked if he'd just pop up and say hello before they went to sleep. half hour later Ivs hadn't returned, val went upstairs onl to find Ives at the foo of the bed singing Ugly Bug ball to the children. So you never kn ow with these quotes, after all Jimmy saville also said the same thing! ;)

Subject: RE: Life of Burl Ives
From: dick greenhaus
Date: 21 Oct 12 - 12:11 PM

Whatever his politics and moral fiber (or lack of same) Burl Ives was probably personally responsible for the Folk Revival.

Subject: RE: Life of Burl Ives
From: GUEST
Date: 21 Oct 12 - 02:46 PM

Prior to the folk music revival that began to accelerate in the 1950s, I can't think of any other singer of folk songs who was better known to the general public than Burl Ives.

Well before I became actively interested in singing folk songs myself, I was aware of Burl Ives. As a kid, I used to listen to his radio program, "The Wayfaring Stranger," on which he talked about American history and sang songs relating to the historical events he was talking about. The program started in 1940. I was not aware that it had started that early. But I remember listening to it regularly.

Then, when he began appearing in movies, e.g. "Smoky" in 1946, and "The Green Grass of Wyoming" and "So Dear to My Heart" in 1948, as the portly, likeable guitar strumming singer, everybody knew who he was.

In 1952, when I bought my first guitar ($9.95, and it sounded like an apple crate, but it played easily enough) and went looking for records to learn songs from, the folk music bin in Campus Music and Gallery was pretty sparse pickings. But I got one Pete Seeger record, one Richard Dyer-Bennet, one Susan Reed, and three Burl Ives records, all 10" LPs.

I think the folk music revival would have happened anyway, but Burl Ives gave it one helluva jump-start!

Don Firth

Subject: RE: Life of Burl Ives
From: Don Firth
Date: 21 Oct 12 - 08:29 PM

Hmm! As indicated at the bottom of the post directly above, that was from me. I did a general shovelling out of extraneous stuff from my computer, and apparently tossed my cookies at the same time.

Don Firth

Subject: RE: Life of Burl Ives
From: GUEST,Don Stevens
Date: 22 Oct 12 - 11:00 AM

To me, Burl Ives was the Greatest Folk Singer, of all. I only got to meet him once, at Pete Seegers', in 1948 (Although I corresponded with him many times, over the years, until he 'passed'). My wife purchased my first Album, in 1949, for my Birthday. It was Burl Ives 'The Wayfaring Stranger'. We have since collected 188 of his Albums, and Videos (many of these in multiple styles, i.e., LP & CD, Cassette & CD , VHS & DVD, etc.)

I think all this political 'crap', is just that. None of that has anything to do with this Wonderful Man - or his Music. There have been many wonderful Music Artists, that I have heard 'bad-mouthed' - usually by some 'no-talented' Jerk. This is the case in many of these 'comments'

Don Stevens

Subject: RE: Life of Burl Ives
From: Stringsinger
Date: 22 Oct 12 - 11:17 AM

This "wonderful man" ratted on his friends in front of the House of UnAmerican Activities Committee in order to save his career.

That said, I also was greatly influenced by his artistry which I find not in dispute.

Not all artists are "wonderful" people in spite of the artistic achievement. What is "crap" is to give them their due as humanitarians or socially aware individuals despite their despicable acts. By contrast, Pete Seeger is both an artist and humanitarian with a highly developed social conscience built on his courage and integrity as a person.

Burl Ives was unquestionably a great singer and performer but I don't know how he could live with himself after jeopardizing other's careers before the chopping block of McCarthyism.

Subject: RE: Life of Burl Ives
From: dick greenhaus
Date: 22 Oct 12 - 12:05 PM

THe deification (and the demonization) of prominent folks is a favorite pastime of the public, whether the subject be Ives, MacColl or Guthrie.

Subject: RE: Life of Burl Ives
From: Don Firth
Date: 22 Oct 12 - 01:49 PM

"This 'wonderful man' ratted on his friends in front of the House of UnAmerican Activities Committee in order to save his career."

I rarely disagree with you on most things, Frank, but this is the stock, rubber-stamp rant against Burl Ives. I suggest that you scroll up to

Subject: RE: Life of Burl Ives
From:GUEST,Mountainbanjo - PM
Date: 09 May 11 - 07:32 PM

And read what Mountainbanjo has posted, which, he informs us, was taken from the transcript of Burl Ives' testimony.

That's hardly "ratting on his friends." He didn't tell the committee anything they didn't already know. And when asked if the people in question were Communists, he responded, "You know who my friends are. Ask them."

Sounds fair enough to me.

Don Firth

Subject: RE: Life of Burl Ives
From: Stringsinger
Date: 23 Oct 12 - 12:12 PM

sorry Skivee, the real victims were the ones who lost their jobs because they had the integrity to stand up to this Committee. Burl was a sell-out here and even named names to victimize people he knew. You can't white wash this.

Don, he cooperated with the HUAC and that's enough to charge him. He wasn't hurt in his career like so many others such as The Weavers, Pete Seeger, Josh White, and so many actors and writers. I don't understand how you can call this abuse "rubber stamping" and give Burl a pass. I don't care what Mountainbanjo has posted, Burl cooperated and was let off otherwise his career would have taken a nose dive along with so many others who were truly victimized.

Subject: RE: Life of Burl Ives
From: Don Firth
Date: 23 Oct 12 - 03:06 PM

Well, mebbe so, Frank, but right from the start (my first active interest in folk music, circa 1952) I've heard some folk music enthusiasts who seemed to feel impelled to take shots at Burl Ives—for no apparent reason other than just because he was well-known, and he was there.

And then, of course, the strangely gleeful trashing of Ives after the Congressional hearings. "Burl Ives 'ratted' on his friends in order to further his own career." But little information on what Ives actually said at those hearings.

The actual transcripts of the hearings tells a story that is considerably different from the one that's so popular with those who seem to take delight in dumping on "Big Daddy."

If you have some authoritative information beyond the usual brief but unsubstantiated accusations, I'm certainly willing to listen.

Don Firth

Subject: RE: Life of Burl Ives
From: Don Firth
Date: 23 Oct 12 - 04:29 PM

Burl Ives probably had a more legitimate claim to being a folk singer than most of those city-born singers who learned all of their songs from records (often Burl Ives' records) and songbooks, who looked down their noses at him.

He was born in a rural town in Jasper County, Illinois. His father was a farmer, later a contractor, and Burl learned his first songs—and ballads—from his grandmother, not from records or songbooks. And he spent some time wandering the country, making his way by singing (a la Woody Guthrie), and learning songs from other people as he went.

When he settled down and decided he'd better make a legitimate living, he enrolled in a teachers' college for a short time, then on the advice of others (commenting on his singing voice), he went to New York to study singing at a music conservatory there. I'm quoting myself from something I posted above, here:

Burl Ives' early autobiography, The Wayfaring Stranger (1948), is well worth a read. It's been a while since I read it, but I particularly remember where he says that he was in New York studying music at a music conservatory and living with a number of other music students. He was studying to be a singer of lieder (art songs), but when he got homesick, he'd take out his guitar and sing some of the songs he had learned from his grandmother. The other students made fun of the songs and mocked him. So one afternoon, he took his guitar to a nearby park. He wasn't thinking of busking or anything like that, he just wanted to sing a bit with no one around but a few pigeons.

It wasn't long before a few children stopped to listen, then more and more people drifted in. Before long he was doing an impromptu concert for a sizable and very appreciative crowd.

He made a decision then. "Why am I killing myself trying to develop a repertoire of songs that are really foreign to me, language and all, when I already have a large repertoire of songs that I've been singing all my life?"

He dropped out of the conservatory and started singing folk songs, and the rest is history.

His singing voice (a light tenor, not unlike Richard Dyer-Bennet's) was cultivated, but he didn't make a fetish of it, and many of the songs he sang he had "tidied up," polishing off some rough edges, which occasionally made some of them a bit "wimpy," and as a guitarist, his playing was dead simple. He was no Segovia, by any means. But his accompaniments, if simple, were at least adequate.

But he was out there, one of the very first to introduce folk music, presented in a simple, straightforward manner, to the general public! And he got a lot of people interested in folk music early on.

If he is, indeed, the Devil, then let's at least give the Devil his due.

Don Firth

Subject: RE: Life of Burl Ives
From: GUEST,Tunesmith
Date: 23 Oct 12 - 04:35 PM

Here in the UK, Burl had a number of hits ( Ugly Bug Ball, Little Bitty Tear, for example )some 50 years ago but I was never tempted to "check him out" further.
I'm not at all sure why he didn't catch my imagination.
On the other hand, from the moment that I heard Pete Seeger, I went out of my way to search out his material.

Subject: RE: Life of Burl Ives
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 23 Oct 12 - 05:10 PM

Tunesmith, those were his later records, where his company had, most mistakenly IMO, tried to make him more MOR popular by singing songs which his father had earlier in his career described as 'kinda soupy'. His earlier, traditionally-based, records ~~ The Fox, Aunt Rhody, Careless Love, Blue Tail Fly ... ~~ far more acceptable; and, for that matter, rather more successful. He relates this in his Wayfaring Stranger autobiog; together, as I think I mentioned in an earlier post, with his lack of success in trying to appreciate grand opera ---
in one of his dutiful visits to the Met Opera during his early days in NY: "One day while standing through a Wagnerian opera, the Almighty sent a ray of light through my skull, and I realised, 'This stinks'."

~M~

Subject: RE: Life of Burl Ives
From: Don Firth
Date: 23 Oct 12 - 06:07 PM

Right, M. It was from those early records that I learned the first songs I learned. The first song, "The Fox." This was in 1952.

Then the next song I took a shot at was "Greensleeves," from a Richard Dyer-Bennet record. I also had Dyer-Bennet's folio of twenty songs with the guitar accompaniments written out. Way to hell and gone beyond me, and I quickly discovered that I couldn't sing it in the same key. So back to the Burl Ives records.

And my copy of A Treasury of Folk Songs, compiled by John and Sylvia Kolb (Bantam Books, 35¢).

Then "The Golden Vanity" from Dyer-Bennet, and back to "The Bold Soldier" from The Burl Ives Song Book, followed by "High Barbaree" from the same source.

Lotsa good songs!!

I eventually got "Greensleeves," but I worked out my own accompaniment for it, as ornate as Dyer-Bennet's, but in a different key. But this was after I had taken some classical guitar lessons.

Burl Ives' records were sort of "basic repertoire" early on. And not just for me.

Don Firth

P. S. I can't really agree with Ives about opera. In my middle teens, a friend of mine (actually, one of my fencing instructors) was smitten with opera, then discovered that he had a pretty nice tenor voice. He decided to take singing lessons. He and I and a couple of others used to listen to recordings of operas, and I decided to take some singing lessons from the same teacher. She diagnosed my voice as a low bass-baritone (frog in a rain barrel). But I developed a real liking for opera, and my wife and I are season ticket holders at Seattle Opera.

If I were to try to sing operatic stuff, I'd really smell at it, but I seem to be able to do folk songs and ballads well enough so that some benighted souls are willing to pay to listen to me, and I love the songs, so. . . .

Wagner is pretty heavy going if you're not familiar with opera to begin with, but rather than "stinks," some of it is bloody magnificent!!

Your mileage may vary. . . .

Subject: RE: Life of Burl Ives
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 23 Oct 12 - 11:58 PM

Oh, no, Don; my mileage doesn't vary. Burl's did! I love opera; in my early teens, would go to the matinée at Sadlers Wells every Saturday, having risen v early for tube ride Golders Green to Angel, to get front of queue when box office opened for amphitheatre seats only bookable on day, then back again for 2.30, till I had heard whole repertoire.

Re your trouble with keys, had nobody taught you the 3-chord trick for transposal of tonic, subdom, dominant, to adjust any song to your own key?

~M~

Subject: RE: Life of Burl Ives
From: GUEST,999
Date: 24 Oct 12 - 12:25 AM

Little Bitty Tear was a song of his I liked. There was a heart-felt presence on that record. I saved money from my paper route to buy it in the days when 45 rpm's were fifty cents or so. I paid more than 10% of my weekly pay to buy that.

Today, I figure that if Pete Seeger could forgive him, who am I to complain.

When we are all gone--as we shall be--how will we be remembered? Did froggy go a-courtin' or are we waist deep in the big muddy?

HUAC was an abomination. Today, we face much the same thing: the remaining question is one of personal choice. If our music is not beyond that, well, that's a choice. I hope I'll side with the big muddy, but I've made stupid decisions before and the good lord willing I'll make s'more again.

As a btw, it is great to read two masters of their craft parlaying. Now, I'll return to lurking once again.

Subject: RE: Life of Burl Ives
From: GUEST,Beachcomber
Date: 24 Oct 12 - 07:01 AM

It must have been difficult for a man like Frank Hamilton to observe that Burl Ives' career thrived over the years while that of the Weavers, Seeger et al., was virtually halted by the machinations of the HUAC. But I don't think it matters anymore, as regards appreciation of their value to society, not to people like those who populate Mudcat anyway. The songs of the Weavers and their ilk are there on record for all to hear and they will never be forgotten, and neither will Burl Ives.
I, for one, have been listening for some 60 years, on and off..

Subject: RE: Life of Burl Ives
From: GUEST,Tunesmith
Date: 24 Oct 12 - 08:30 AM

MtheGM mentioned that he was turned on to Burl Ives by songs such as "The Fox, Aunt Rhody, Careless Love, Blue Tail Fly".
Well, I must admit that apart from Careless Love I consider the other songs only fit for the under 10s!

Thinking about that, I've always admired - in amazement - Pete Seeger's ability/desire to sing anything and everything that comes under the heading "folk".

I've always had lots of trouble finding material that I would want to sing, but Pete ... and Burl, probably - were happy to sing the A to Z of folksongs.

Subject: RE: Life of Burl Ives
From: Stringsinger
Date: 24 Oct 12 - 02:09 PM

"Whatever his politics and moral fiber (or lack of same) Burl Ives was probably personally responsible for the Folk Revival."

I would agree with you, Dick. He was probably my first introduction to folk music.
Maybe next was Josh White and Richard Dyer-Bennet.

As far as his guitar playing being "adequate" that says a lot considering all the guitar hotshots who over arrange their accompaniments. Burl's guitar was appropriate so that the words could come through, his diction being impeccable.

But we have to give Pete Seeger his due as a one man publicity agent for the rise of the Folk Revival, introducing and promoting so many such as Sonny Terry, Leadbelly, along with Alan Lomax, Woody Guthrie, Odetta (yes Pete was there), and many songwriters such as Tom Paxton et. al.

Subject: RE: Life of Burl Ives
From: Vic Smith
Date: 24 Oct 12 - 03:16 PM

The Brighton Centre was opened in 1977 and the following September hosted the first and only Brighton Folk Festival with Fred Woods brought in by the Brighton council as the main organiser. The event was a huge financial flop which was paid for out the Brighton rates.
Burl Ives was one of the top names booked for the festival. The outcry by Brighton ratepayers at the amount of money that the festival had cost them was heightened when it was revealed the one of the riders on the Burl Ives contract was that he should travel to Europe for the festival by Concorde.
One of the few events of the festival that was well attended was the dance which I think was in the early evening of the Saturday. Eddie Upton was calling.... would the band have been The Etchinghams or was in the Albion Dance Band by 1978?
Fred Woods was standing at the back of the dance hall with Burl Ives when Eddie started an announcement:-
There's a very important person in the hall today, one of the most important names in folk music.....
Fred starts to push Burl forward towards the stage.
So, I'd like you all to welcome....
Fred starts clapping loudly and Burl walks towards the stage waving to either side.
...... Shirley Collins!
Burl turns around and looks with a hurt and confused expression at Fred.

Later that evening, Burl gives a performance to not many people in the cavernous main auditorium.

Subject: RE: Life of Burl Ives
From: Vic Smith
Date: 24 Oct 12 - 03:39 PM

Sorry - wrong date in previous post! It was September 1977 not 1978 as you can read by clicking here

Subject: RE: Life of Burl Ives
From: Don Firth
Date: 24 Oct 12 - 03:55 PM

MtheGM, no, I knew how to transpose early on. But I was trying to read the notation Dyer-Bennet had written for the accompaniment he used for "Greensleeves." I knew right off I couldn't sing it in the key he did (Em). I was trying to figure out how to do what he was doing, but in a different key, Am. Due to the layout of the guitar fingerboard, I'd have to completely rework it if I wanted to do the kind of fiddly bits that he was doing. I eventually did after taking some classical guitar lessons and educating my fingers at bit. I managed to come up with a pretty good arrangement which was all my own. It sounds kind of lute-like, which is what I was after.

####

GUEST,Tunesmith:   " . . . I must admit that apart from Careless Love I consider the other songs [The Fox, Aunt Rhody, Careless Love, Blue Tail Fly] only fit for the under 10s!"

Well, I've been singing for audiences off and on now for somewhat over fifty years, and in addition to the ten-year-olds, adults seem to thoroughly enjoy those songs as much as the kids do.

Except, of course, for some folkies who seem to regard themselves as too serious and sophisticated to get a kick out of children's songs. Not saying that this necessarily applies to you, Tunesmith, but—hey, think about it a bit.

And by the way, "The Blue-Tail Fly" is not exactly a children's song. It has a bit of serious history to it. Have you actually listened to it? It's kinda dark, really.

####

And Frank's comment just above, in his second paragraph regarding Burl Ives' guitar accompaniments:   a friend of mine, also a singer-guitarist, and I were sitting over coffee one day and talking about guitars and guitar accompaniments. We were rattling on when another fellow at the table, who'd just been listening up to that point, interrupted us and asked, "Do you two regard yourselves primarily as singers? Or primarily guitarists?"

Damned good question! I thought about that quite a lot.

I melded this question with a comment made by another friend, who was a picture framer by trade. "If people look at a painting hanging on the wall and go away saying, 'Gee, isn't that a wonderful frame?' then the picture framer blew it! The frame is supposed to set the painting off in space, not overwhelm it!"

It occurred to me that the same principle applies to song accompaniments. If your accompaniment overwhelms the song—you blew it!

KISS*.

Burl Ives may not be a flashy guitarist, but his accompaniments do the job and do it well.

Don Firth

*For those who don't recognize the acronym, it's a good one:   Keep It Simple, Stupid!"

Just because you CAN do something, it doesn't mean you HAVE to.

Subject: RE: Life of Burl Ives
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 24 Oct 12 - 04:59 PM

Vic Smith ~~ Romantic tale, about Burl singing in 'cavernous hall to not many people' at Brighton 1977. Were you there? I recall standing-room only. Colin Irwin & I interviewed Burl next day at the Grand Hotel [then still standing, before the IRA had their bit of fun a few years later], Colin for Melody Maker & I for The Guardian; he was perfectly happy with the arrangements and the reception he had got.

~M~

Subject: RE: Life of Burl Ives
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 24 Oct 12 - 05:30 PM

In fact, to clarify ~~ Burl was standing at the back with Fred on the Saturday night; I saw him & spoke to him, but he was there only as an observer and it is possible that when the announcement was made about the "important person", the person making it didn't even know he was there; so no joke or insult intended. Colin & I then interviewed him on the Sun afternoon, as I said, when he was perfectly cheerful. His actual set was sung, as I said, to a packed hall as the final climax to the Festival on the Sunday night ~~ not, as you appear erroneously to recollect, 'later on the [Saturday] night', which was climaxed by IIRC The Chieftains ~~ at least, I certainly remember talking to Paddy Moloney & Derek Bell, who were in same hotel arranged by Fred, at breakfast on the Sunday morning. My interview with him was in The Guardian on, I think, the Tuesday of the following week, as I had to send it by 1st class Sunday mail for some reason as phone copytakers were not available; can't recall why.

I am pretty sure I have got my recollections accurately together this time; and particularly that anything about Burl singing to 'few people in a cavernous space' were just not the case.

~Michael~

Subject: RE: Life of Burl Ives
From: Stringsinger
Date: 24 Oct 12 - 06:56 PM

Don, what you said about simplicity apropos of folk song accompaniment is right on.
Anything that's played should enhance and not subtract from the melody, words and feeling.

One person who is not mentioned too much who played lovely accompaniments to his songs is the late Sam Hinton, from La Jolla, California whose recordings were done by the Library of Congress Folkarts Division and through the aegis of my friend, Adam Miller,
showing Sam's incredible harmonica playing, the best straight style harp I've ever heard.

I suspect that Sam had heard Burl sing many times and carried the sense of the story/song as Burl would have done. Sam's voice was plain and honest, with a lilt in his rhythm.

The songs reflect his Texas background. I think that a thread on Sam would be in order, the most likely person to start it would be Adam Miller who knew Sam intimately.
Sam started me off in a concert in 1952 at San Diego State College, the first full length
concert I did. I was about seventeen or so.

When I think of the simplicity of Burl and the appropriate accompaniments on guitar,
I often think of Sam and how he was not well known outside of California, a shame.

Subject: RE: Life of Burl Ives
From: Mark Ross
Date: 24 Oct 12 - 08:56 PM

Frank, You are so right, Sam Hinton is vastly underrated, and not as well known as he should be. He wasn't a bad cross harp player either.

Mark Ross

Subject: RE: Life of Burl Ives
From: Don Firth
Date: 24 Oct 12 - 09:05 PM

Now, THERE is one of those wild-eyed coincidences, Frank, that you should mention Sam Hinton!

I first met Sam Hinton at the first Berkeley Folk Festival I attended in 1960, where he MCed pretty much the whole thing. I heard, and had a chance to meet and talk with, some great people—Peggy Seeger and Ewan McColl, John Lomax Jr., Lightnin' Hopkins, and several others, including running into Sandy Paton again. He'd been a busy lad since I last saw him in Seattle in 1954. And Sam Hinton. The concerts were great and the workshops were a real learning experience. I attended several more Berkeley festivals, and Sam was MCing most of the events, along with doing a lot of singing.

But—What makes this a surprising coincidence is that a few days ago, I got one of those notices from Amazon that said, "Our records show that in the past you bought this, this, and this. So we thought you might be interested in this." And the item was a CD of some forty-five songs sung by Sam Hinton.

The mail just came, the CD arrived, and I just opened it. I wanted to do a quick check of Mudcat, then listen to the CD.

And there you are, talking about Sam Hinton!

What a blast!!

Don Firth

Subject: RE: Life of Burl Ives
From: pdq
Date: 24 Oct 12 - 10:11 PM

Somebody here was trying to knock Burl Ives for doing children's songs.

Other great Folkies who did children's songs include Pete Seeger, Doc Watson and Sam Hinton.

Perhaps it takes a grownup to do children's songs.

Subject: RE: Life of Burl Ives
From: meself
Date: 24 Oct 12 - 10:38 PM

Not to mention Woody Guthrie.

Subject: RE: Life of Burl Ives
From: GUEST,Tunesmith
Date: 25 Oct 12 - 02:39 AM

Performing children's songs to children is fine!
But the practice of performing children's songs to adults is rather questionable!

Subject: RE: Life of Burl Ives
From: GUEST,Alan Whittle
Date: 25 Oct 12 - 03:56 AM

Trouble is, no one sings folksongs to kids. Maybe Liza Carthy got sung folksongs to her, but no one else. Whereas we learned a lot of folksongs. people like Elton Hayes and Burl and BBC's Singing Together programme did great work for our geberation.

I heard all the nasty things people said about Burl. But I don't judge him, any more than I do John Dillinger for robbing banks in depression America. Judge not lest ye be judged - the hardest injunction from the Sermon on the Mount.

I also heard the stuff about him singing like he wore silk drawers, Woody also said Pete seeger playing guitar was like someone dressing the songs up in lace pants. As a devotee of the lingerie section in every catalogue that comes through the door - I don't really like my folksongs smelling of fart and sweat. I suspect its down to individual sensiblities.

I worship Woody as a songwriter, but if he'd talked that way about my singing or guitar playing - I would probably have told him to fuck off. I hear he used to make Ronnie Gilbert cry - no excuse for that stuff.

Personally i always liked that rich buttery voice that Burl perfected. I also thought it sounded like butter on a scone, just perfect. I remember wishing that he's have a go at Blues Run the Game. The desolation of the words actually need a richer voice to lift it. Someone like Bert Jansch singing it made it sound like clinical depression - rather than the Byronic loneliness of that all young people occasionally enjoy indulging in - and what really drew us youngsters to the song.

Subject: RE: Life of Burl Ives
From: Amos
Date: 25 Oct 12 - 09:07 AM

Sam was a gem. I shared the privilege of singing to the crowd at his last-but-one birthday party. He was wheelchair bound by then, but he loved being sung to, and shaking to the music. He knew every song I had ever heard and then some.

A