BS: Young Earth Creationism Eureka!

Subject: BS: Young Earth Creationism Eureka!
From: Jack the Sailor
Date: 02 Jan 12 - 11:46 AM

Somehow I got sucked into reading about half of a year old thread about an ages old argument until I skipped to the end and found that the thread had been updated to report recent news on the subject.

But I did not skip until I had read the original poster opine that like an artist, the creator of the universe had created his work of art, the universe, with an "ideal time line" (His explanation of "ideal" has something to do with The Macbeths being married when the play starts) of 14 billion years a few thousand years ago.

But isn't this the solution to the "evolution vs creation" debate. Can't we just go to New Hampshire and all those places trying to teach "Creation Science" and say to the school boards something like, "Hey we get that you believe that God created us and all that and have no problem with you as a school board telling kids that you believe that, but we believe that God created all of this evidence and if we don't teach it as science then in a generation or two your kids will be working in sweat shops making technology for the Chinese."

Subject: RE: BS: Young Earth Creationism Eureka!
From: GUEST,Shining Wit
Date: 02 Jan 12 - 11:57 AM

Good idea.

Whilst we're there we can also ask them what scientific evidence they have to support the YE/creationist fallacy. Show me a horse in the Solnhofen limestone alongside Archaeopteryx. Show me a whale fossil amongst the numerous ammonite fossils that contain the extinct reptile fossils amongst them. You'll need several, but if you're right those fossils are there. Somewhere amongst the Burgess Shale you should find a modern, bony fish.

Make yourself the most famous person in the history of science by proving, by turning scientists own tools against then, that dinosaurs existed alongside horses, or rhinos or whatever. Unequivocally. Think of it! You would change the world. You'd be immortal! Palaeontologists would love you for this massive advance in our knowledge. You'll have statues of you in the halls of the world's great museums.

Subject: RE: BS: Young Earth Creationism Eureka!
From: Little Hawk
Date: 02 Jan 12 - 12:03 PM

One has to wonder why "God" (assuming the existence of such an intervening entity in the first place) would bother creating a whole bunch of misleading scientific evidence to make His (or Her) created human beings believe they were living on a planet far older than it really is!

What would be the purpose of such sleight of hand? To make both atheists AND religious people happy?

AHA! That must be it! God wanted everyone to be happy and to get to be "right" (or at least feel that they were) even though they disagree with each other about really basic stuff.

Animals don't have to worry about any of that. God must like them even better than He (or She) (or It) likes us human beings...although we are (in the view of some)...animals...ummm...

Hmmm. Gets a bit confusing, doesn't it? Now where DID Adam's sons find those women they went off and married?

Christianity's only been around for about 2,000 years. That's a very small chunk of time in the overall tale of humanity on this planet. It's amazing that a cultural phenomenon that's only been around since, relatively speaking, last week can exert this much power over people's minds, but hey....look at the effect Justin Bieber is having! And he's only been around about as long as a fruit fly.

So anything's possible.

Subject: RE: BS: Young Earth Creationism Eureka!
From: Stringsinger
Date: 02 Jan 12 - 12:04 PM

Jack, there are sweatshops extant in the US today, we don't have to worry about working for the Chinese. We certainly aren't going to stop this practice through another "creationist" doctrine.

If we learn anything from theology, it should be that of liberation theology, not scientific in application but a model for how we can equal the playing field for the have-nots and those cheaters who are hoarding taxpayer dollars for themselves.

Again, a doctrine just to define someone's view of a god is not useful to society.

Subject: RE: BS: Young Earth Creationism Eureka!
From: Little Hawk
Date: 02 Jan 12 - 12:08 PM

There are many differing views of "God". Some are useful to society. Some are not. I could give examples, but I'd have to go on typing for days...and I don't have time for that.

Subject: RE: BS: Young Earth Creationism Eureka!
From: GUEST,Shimrod
Date: 02 Jan 12 - 12:18 PM

There are no computers, televisions or radio telescopes in the Bible - therefore I refuse to believe that they exist! But, hang on ... I'm typing this on a computer keyboard ... which doesn't exist ...Oh, never mind, I'm sure that God knows all the answers!

Subject: RE: BS: Young Earth Creationism Eureka!
From: GUEST,Eliza
Date: 02 Jan 12 - 12:23 PM

Everyone is entitled to believe any theory they wish and to follow any religion they subscribe to. The problem I have is with the indoctrination of children, whose minds are not mature enough to form unbiased conclusions, as adults would. As long as ones beliefs do no harm to others (and that's a tall order) one should be left in peace to pursue them, and treated with respect by others. But if one teaches children that all was created at once, and even to infer that it is evil and a sin to believe otherwise, one is guilty of keeping from their young minds the scientific evidence which most of the world now accepts. However, to teach that, for example, Jesus is our Saviour or Jehovah is the One God etc etc could be viewed as similar indoctrination of children. Maybe all these tenets should be left until people are deemed old enough to assess, accept or reject them for themselves.

Subject: RE: BS: Young Earth Creationism Eureka!
From: GUEST,999
Date: 02 Jan 12 - 12:25 PM

Did you hear the one about . . .

Subject: RE: BS: Young Earth Creationism Eureka!
From: Mrrzy
Date: 02 Jan 12 - 12:35 PM

No, Little Hawk, it is all a test of faith.

Then I have no issue with the YECs. Sure it was made a few thousand years ago, but it was made to Look As If, and we can study what it looks as if. Like evolution, plate tectonics, and so on.

If you believe what you see, you fail the test of faith.

If you believe your sacred text in the face of all that evidence, you pass.

However, it is only those of us who fail who will get to find out if we were wrong!

Subject: RE: BS: Young Earth Creationism Eureka!
From: Jim Dixon
Date: 02 Jan 12 - 12:54 PM

Jack the Sailor: You're referring to the Omphalos hypothesis. I wrote a brief summary of it in a thread called Bible question back in October, 2000.

Little Hawk: The Omphalos hypothesis, as expressed by Philip Henry Gosse, includes a thoughtful theological answer to your question "Why would God create misleading evidence?"

Subject: RE: BS: Young Earth Creationism Eureka!
From: Amos
Date: 02 Jan 12 - 01:00 PM

In the dark, one crock of shit smells about the same as another.

Better to light one candle than to stand about in a cloud of unknowing smelling horse manure.

Subject: RE: BS: Young Earth Creationism Eureka!
From: Greg F.
Date: 02 Jan 12 - 01:09 PM

"Everyone is entitled to believe any theory they wish ...."

You're getting very close to "fire in a crowded theater" here, Eliza.

They may be allowed to think it as long as

1. IT DOES NO HARM TO OTHER CITIZENS WHO CHOOSE NOT TO BELIEVE IT.

2. THEY DO NOT ENDEAVOR TO FORCE THEIR IDIOTIC BELIEFS ON OTHERS.

3. IT DOES NOT RESULT IN DIRECT HARM TO OTHERS.

Subject: RE: BS: Young Earth Creationism Eureka!
From: GUEST,michaelr
Date: 02 Jan 12 - 01:17 PM

Religion is like a penis.
It's fine to have one. It's fine to be proud of it.
But please don't take it our in public and wave it around.
And don't try to shove it down my children's throat!

Subject: RE: BS: Young Earth Creationism Eureka!
From: GUEST,999
Date: 02 Jan 12 - 01:33 PM

Doesn't this happen anyway?

Subject: RE: BS: Young Earth Creationism Eureka!
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 02 Jan 12 - 01:51 PM

I've said it before and I'll say it again. All theories are not created equal. People who teach children stupid theories are child abusers.

Subject: RE: BS: Young Earth Creationism Eureka!
From: Bill D
Date: 02 Jan 12 - 01:56 PM

See my last post on the YEC thread......

Subject: RE: BS: Young Earth Creationism Eureka!
From: Greg F.
Date: 02 Jan 12 - 02:09 PM

See my last post on the YEC thread.

Subject: RE: BS: Young Earth Creationism Eureka!
From: GUEST,999
Date: 02 Jan 12 - 02:13 PM

You can see my last and first post on the YEC thread on THIS thread:


Date: 02 Jan 12 - 02:10 PM

I fail to see what an individual's belief in a supreme being has to do with anyone else. Basically, people have a right to their beliefs. That doesn't give them the right to tell me about it.

When proselytizing people come to my door I politely ask them to leave. If they don't, I tell them to leave. If they still don't, I start talking in tongues. Religious, political and other.

Yer gabbit shafling corderum ragables fernucormun. BEASTS! FORNICATORS!

I get very very few second visits.

Subject: RE: BS: Young Earth Creationism Eureka!
From: Paul Burke
Date: 02 Jan 12 - 02:19 PM

The intellectual decline of creationists in the last hundred and fifty years is highlighted by the reception of Gosse's book when it was published. In those pre- Origin of Species days, the response of the religious world was almost as horrified as that later given to Darwin. The omphalos theory proclaims God as a liar, tempting his people into sin, a concept theologically impossible then. For the modern young- Earth fundamentalist, any tool or trick from misrepresentation of evidence, through ad- hominem attacks, to the lie direct is acceptable if it can gain a tactical advantage; there is no concept of honour or morality.

The theory itself is of course rubbish (despite its author's good intentions- and he was an important scientist) as it could be used to support any arbitrary assertion. If God can lie in one matter, why not others?

Subject: RE: BS: Young Earth Creationism Eureka!
From: GUEST,999
Date: 02 Jan 12 - 02:45 PM

If God played golf or went fishing, he'd/she'd lie as often as the rest of us.

Subject: RE: BS: Young Earth Creationism Eureka!
From: Greg F.
Date: 02 Jan 12 - 02:59 PM

Especially fishing, Bruce.

Subject: RE: BS: Young Earth Creationism Eureka!
From: GUEST
Date: 02 Jan 12 - 04:21 PM

"Hours are long. Wages are pitiful. But sweatshops are the symptom, not the cause, of shocking global poverty. Workers go there voluntarily, which means—hard as it is to believe—that whatever their alternatives are, they are worse. They stay there, too; turnover rates of multinational-owned factories are low, because conditions and pay, while bad, are better than those in factories run by local firms. And even a local company is likely to pay better than trying to earn money without a job: running an illegal street stall, working as a prostitute, or combing reeking landfills in cities like Manila to find recyclable goods." ― Tim Harford, The Undercover Economist

Subject: RE: BS: Young Earth Creationism Eureka!
From: gnu
Date: 02 Jan 12 - 04:57 PM

Yech.

Subject: RE: BS: Young Earth Creationism Eureka!
From: Little Hawk
Date: 02 Jan 12 - 05:55 PM

Hey! Don't blame God for the Bible, folks. God didn't write the Bible. A large number of men wrote it. Further large numbers of men in Rome and Constantinople decided which books to include in it and which books to censor out of it. The latter were termed the Apocryha. Some of them contain some very interesting material.

Then you have the ancient Hindu scriptures, the Muslim scriptures, the old Jewish scriptures, the Buddhist scriptures, the Gnostic Gospels, the Taoist scriptures, the Popul Voh (Mayan scriptures), etc....holy books from many traditions, some very ancient, some more modern.

Men wrote all of them (although, a few may have been written by women too). A number of those traditions (but not all of them) say that God directly inspired the writings and that they are "the Word of God". That's a matter of opinion, and it's unprovable either way.

But don't blame it on God, okay? God didn't do it. People did. (And I'm not saying God doesn't exist...I'm just saying that people wrote all those books.)

As I'm sure you know...

Subject: RE: BS: Young Earth Creationism Eureka!
From: Amos
Date: 02 Jan 12 - 06:02 PM

You're not being very enlightening, Hawkster!


A

Subject: RE: BS: Young Earth Creationism Eureka!
From: Little Hawk
Date: 02 Jan 12 - 06:09 PM

I'm just having some fun, Amos. For enlightenment, you must secure a private appointment...and bring mucho dinero! (grin)

Note: I am all booked up right through March 31. Try for early in April, okay?

Subject: RE: BS: Young Earth Creationism Eureka!
From: Bill D
Date: 02 Jan 12 - 06:13 PM

hmmmppff...I'll bet the dachshund doesn't need a private appointment.

Subject: RE: BS: Young Earth Creationism Eureka!
From: Ed T
Date: 02 Jan 12 - 06:13 PM

Why did dogs not write any "good books? 'cause they have dirty mouths, and left it up to humans to spread the good words.

Dogs vs Humans

Subject: RE: BS: Young Earth Creationism Eureka!
From: GUEST,999
Date: 02 Jan 12 - 06:25 PM

I'm working on a new set of religious books right now, LH.

First, there will be a revelation (OK, I need a desert to wander in, so I was thinking about Alberta's badlands). After forty-ish days and nights--I was thinking about maybe a few hours and then bullshi##ing the rest--I'd smoke a jay and have a visitation. From that we'd do up a new ten commandments. You with me on this or not? I know you don't smoke, so I'll describe what is revealed to me to you and then we figure out how to market it. Is that a plan or what?

Think BIG picture here. TV stations, radio shows, ads in newspapers, all to the greater glory.

Subject: RE: BS: Young Earth Creationism Eureka!
From: gnu
Date: 02 Jan 12 - 06:31 PM

"Men wrote all of them".

But, you are God. We are God.. if we choose to be in the sense that we extend a hand to all others... love thy neighbour and all that.

God is in every one of us. We are one. Unfortunately, far too many choose to ignore the common good and think only of themselves. I understand that. Hedge your bets and don't let the other guy fuck you over on accounta he will if he gets the chance... best to either fuck him over first or pile up enough firepower to fuck him over if he tries to take your stuff. And we need our stuff.

I view God as a goal, not a deity. The deity only exists in the minds of SOME men (yeah, I mean humans... womenz too).

Is that cracked?

Subject: RE: BS: Young Earth Creationism Eureka!
From: Ed T
Date: 02 Jan 12 - 06:31 PM

Ali G on Science

Subject: RE: BS: Young Earth Creationism Eureka!
From: gnu
Date: 02 Jan 12 - 06:45 PM

How disgusting. I watched over half of that to see if anyone was gonna say to the piece of trash what I would have said to him. Humour? Not in my books.

Subject: RE: BS: Young Earth Creationism Eureka!
From: Ed T
Date: 02 Jan 12 - 06:56 PM

Seems very logical that we all see humour differently, as we see many things differently. What is one persons "trash", is another persons treasure:)

Subject: RE: BS: Young Earth Creationism Eureka!
From: Little Hawk
Date: 02 Jan 12 - 07:04 PM

I agree with you, gnu, we are all God...in manifestation...whether we know it or not...and so is everything else. But that's just too cosmic for a lot of people. They start making those "doo-doo...doo-doo..." twilight zone sounds and they freak out and start using absuive terms like "mumbo-jumbo", and the whole conversation turns to shit from that point on.

We certainly don't want that happening, do we? ;-D So let's just pretend you didn't say it and I didn't agree...

****

999 - Sounds like a hell of a plan to me! I'm with ya. But yer gonna have to do the whole forty days in the desert for real, man. Too much likelihood of trouble somewhere down the line if you don't. What've you got figured for the new 10 Commandments?

Subject: RE: BS: Young Earth Creationism Eureka!
From: gnu
Date: 02 Jan 12 - 07:16 PM

I got one.

1. Thou shalt not be an asshole.

Any need for any more?

And, yes, I know, I know.

But, of course, I know there will be more. I just hope they are more humourous than my suggestion.

Subject: RE: BS: Young Earth Creationism Eureka!
From: GUEST,999
Date: 02 Jan 12 - 07:36 PM

Well, LH, taking into account my good friend Gnu's suggestion, may I suggest

1) Thou shalt be nice to everyone

Subject: RE: BS: Young Earth Creationism Eureka!
From: Ed T
Date: 02 Jan 12 - 07:40 PM

"Thou shalt not be an asshole"

Good advice for all to heed, except for the field of humour. Sometimes it takes "a humourous asshole approach" to through humour to bring folks back to reality-to lead them to take a close look at what they propose/preach and how they treat the personal views of others, that are likely no better or worse than those they hold :)

BTW, gnu, expect humour when you see the name Ali G. Since you do not seem to like his type of humour, I expect you will pass it by).

If "asshole statement was in all the holy books and preached by those who have "found the light", with or without a diety.These folks have found something that works for them personally. Great stuff. But, acting like assholes with others, who have found something different that works for them, is really being a big asshole.

I am not pointing at anyone here in the last paragraph. But, does anyone really expect to read something new in Mudcat that has not been said before in the many religious posts about God, or a no God?

Maybe it will happen? But, I am not optimistic. It is more likely that someone may see something that was said before in the merry-go-round, that may seem new?

Subject: RE: BS: Young Earth Creationism Eureka!
From: Little Hawk
Date: 02 Jan 12 - 11:19 PM

NO!!!!!!!!!

It is not.

But that won't stop us. ;-)


999 - Good commandment.

I would add:

Thou shalt be truthful.

Thou shalt make war no more, not upon any excuse (this applies to those who start wars, specially in the case of those who are far better armed than the country they attack)(and it specially applies to those who bomb or INVADE the territory of another nation with the clear intent to conquer it.)

Thou shalt cease violence against thine own citizenry (in the case of governments), thy neighbours, and thy family.

Thou shalt not steal.

Thou shalt not engage in fraudulent activity.

Thou shalt not value money above brotherhood.

Thou shalt not charge the sick or injured for needed medical care.

Thou shalt not profit off the suffering of one's fellow beings, but shall seek solutions that benefit and profit all members of the community.

Thou shalt reward great accomplishments with promotions...with public honors...and with great respect...but NOT with money or material gain. (this was the method used to motivate people in the fictional society imagined by Gene Roddenberry in the Star Trek show...and it's a brilliantly intelligent way of organizing and motivating a society. There was no money in that society, no bankers, no loan sharks, and no poverty either.)

Subject: RE: BS: Young Earth Creationism Eureka!
From: GUEST,999
Date: 02 Jan 12 - 11:24 PM

I had very little beer on New Year's eve. I've been making up for it tonight. I agree with all you said, LH. However, I think many are subsumed by #1. Whatdya think?

Subject: RE: BS: Young Earth Creationism Eureka!
From: Jack the Sailor
Date: 03 Jan 12 - 12:51 AM

Look its pretty simple. You put the following as the first paragraph in every science text. "Your elected school board believes the following..(then spell out what they believe.)"   The second paragraph would be the following. "The scientific evidence, which was put into the universe for humanity to find, by God, if you believe God created everything, says the following... (insert entire science text here) The last paragraph would be "Belief in God is not necessary for the examination and use of this knowledge."

Subject: RE: BS: Young Earth Creationism Eureka!
From: Musket
Date: 03 Jan 12 - 04:17 AM

Hello Sailor!

I take your last point but as children are impressionable, and there is a need for authority to be respected when you are a child, (as training to question it appropriately as an adult, but I digress...) Is't it incumbent on the school board not to put it forward in the first place rather than prompt children to take a view on the sanity of the elected school board?

There are times when the wishes of a school board have to be be implemented rather than examined, so surely the best route is to ensure they act responsibly in the first place.

We have faith schools in The UK, and whilst the statistics add up to better achievement than those run by the local authorities, I suspect that is due to better discipline rather than teaching fairy stories as fact. Science is on the curriculum and whilst there may still be a few renegade teachers out there, we put religious education in a religious education class and Darwin in a science class.

That said, one of my teachers didn't believe in dinosaurs and claimed there was more evidence for the existence of Jesus than Hitler. I respected him as an adult figure, (but we called him Larry Gooseneck behind his back,) but I recall even as a child, dismissing his silly fundamentalist viewpoints.

(Now there's something. I recall being told that he moved to The USA where he became a preacher. But there again, many preachers come from the villages around here; The Wesleys, William Brewster, Peverill to name a few. Obviously if it is something in the water, I didn't drink enough...

Subject: RE: BS: Young Earth Creationism Eureka!
From: Jack the Sailor
Date: 03 Jan 12 - 05:20 AM

School boards are elected here. Presumably they are following the will of the people. My suggestion is the only way we can preserve democracy and remain competitive. But I am not suggesting that the children should be calling the board members insane and laughing at them behind their backs. They should be taught to respect the person without regard to that persons beliefs. They should learn that no one is perfect and that it is not acceptable to grow up snickering at one's elders. Especially if they are Christian, but even if they are not they should learn to "Judge not, lest they be judged."   I am suggesting that they get the data, presented as information in such a way that even if they do graduate believing in a "young earth" that they still are able to do science and technology work.

Subject: RE: BS: Young Earth Creationism Eureka!
From: GUEST,Shining Wit
Date: 03 Jan 12 - 06:30 AM

"The scientific evidence, which was put into the universe for humanity to find, by God, if you believe God created everything, says the following... (insert entire science text here) The last paragraph would be "Belief in God is not necessary for the examination and use of this knowledge."

Not right. In no way should science be associated with the work of any deity. You can associate them if you want but science stands alone from God, Allah,

Subject: RE: BS: Young Earth Creationism Eureka!
From: GUEST
Date: 03 Jan 12 - 06:34 AM

. . . Yaweh, Osiris, Odin or The Great Turtle.

We are the universe made conscious, a far more profound thought that needs no explanation that science doesn't currently provide. This just the beginning of the scientific age. It's going to get a whole load more incredible yet.

Subject: RE: BS: Young Earth Creationism Eureka!
From: GUEST,Shining Wit
Date: 03 Jan 12 - 06:34 AM

Arrrgghhh! Still asleep after the break! 'twas I above.

Subject: RE: BS: Young Earth Creationism Eureka!
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 03 Jan 12 - 07:55 AM

If people teach folly they should be treated as fools. Irrespective of age.

Subject: RE: BS: Young Earth Creationism Eureka!
From: Little Hawk
Date: 03 Jan 12 - 08:42 AM

Hmm. And how does one treat a "fool"? Who decides who is "a fool" and who isn't? It's a matter of opinion, isn't it? After all, one man's wisdom is another man's folly...it all depends on whose opinion you consult about it.

I've known any number of people who believed in various things I don't believe in...but I didn't necessarily regard them as fools for that. I usually regarded them not as fools, but as people who had grown up in different familial or cultural surroundings than mine, and therefore they had developed different ideas about things.

In any case, if you openly treat another person as "a fool", it's likely that he (not thinking of himself as a fool) will get angry. He'll retaliate in some way. He'll probably start treating you as a fool. And then you'll get angry.

Where does that end? I think we've seen historically where it ends, and it's not a nice place.

Subject: RE: BS: Young Earth Creationism Eureka!
From: Bee-dubya-ell
Date: 03 Jan 12 - 09:16 AM

Myths exist as tools by which wisdom is transferred. They are metaphorical frameworks for metaphysical exploration and investigation. They're to be ponderd, analysed, interpreted, and transcended, not accepted at face value. Insisting that a myth is literally true is a metaphysical dead-end. It's like a pilgrim coming across a signpost that points the way to wisdom and enlightenment, and deciding to worship the signpost instead of attempting to get to the place toward which the sign is pointing. It's a foolish practice which does disservice to a myth's underlying wisdom by making it look foolish as well. The wisdom of Genesis has suffered greatly at the hands of metaphysically constipated Christian fundamentalists.

Subject: RE: BS: Young Earth Creationism Eureka!
From: Greg F.
Date: 03 Jan 12 - 10:05 AM

Can't we just go to New Hampshire and all those places trying to teach "Creation Science"...

Won't work, Jack- you're trying to counteract/influence lunacy with rational thought.

Subject: RE: BS: Young Earth Creationism Eureka!
From: Bill D
Date: 03 Jan 12 - 10:16 AM

"metaphysically constipated "....I like that!

There was once some graffiti on the wall of the men's room in the Methodist Student Union and the Univ. of Kansas... it asked:

"Can a metaphysician be sued for malpractice?"