 sj |
||
|
||
BS: Young Earth Creationism Eureka!
|
|
|
Subject: RE: BS: Young Earth Creationism Eureka! From: Don Firth Date: 02 Mar 12 - 02:17 PM Astray, it depends on whether one buys all the supernatural stuff, which (and the evangelical and fundamentalist Christians will never agree with this, but they're not the be-all and end-all of Christianity) is NOT essential to being a Christian. Heaven and Hell are not geographical locations and Adam and Eve were not actual historical people. Metaphor. NOT literal. From a sermon given by an intelligent, thinking pastor: Doubting is a sign of caring. If I don't care, you can tell me men from the moon visited you last night during your prayers and I will say, "that's nice." But if I care, if I care passionately, I will perhaps ask, "Really? What did they look like? Did you really see men from the moon? I can't believe it!" Which translates into, I want to believe it. I would like to believe that wanting to have faith is a form of faith.There is a well-known quote that goes "There is more faith shown by honest doubt than in all the creeds of the world." Who said it is not certain, but it has been attributed to both Alexander Pope and William Blake. What makes a Christian a Christian is how seriously they take the ethical teachings of Jesus, NOT whether they actually believe that Noah parted the Red Sea by waving a stick. Also, a pastor I know commented that there are self-style Christians who are "so hell-bent on getting to heaven, that they are of no earthly use to anyone!" Don Firth |
|
Subject: RE: BS: Young Earth Creationism Eureka! From: GUEST,pete from seven stars link Date: 02 Mar 12 - 06:36 PM don-NOAH ! parting the red sea?sounds a very amusing preacher. penny-that seemed a bit of a mocking posting unchacteristic of your usual more reasoned arguments and comments. going back to your earlier postings;you were talking about chalk and hardgrounds.did you see the tv programme last night about the south downs chalk.i caught some of it before an open mic outing.interesting stuff though of course i dont accept the inevitable deep time assertions.i was reading andrew snelling on CMI site tonight giving [IMO ]a good discussion of uiformitarian and diluvial geology re chalk.it certainly aided my understanding of the subject and the arguments as to the formation of the dover etc cliffs, though without my being equal to a worthy recounting. another argument ,sort of related ,was an article called "disappearing coastlines" which as well as being interesting in the accounts of having to move lighthouses, posed the problem for uniformitarian geology of the rate of erosion being immense distances if really over millenia of deep time. just as creationist scientists counter evolutionary aguments;it occurred evolutionists probably offer an explanation for this one. as you are the geologist on mudcat i thought you would be equiped to supply such-if its not too technical for me! best wishes as always pete |
|
Subject: RE: BS: Young Earth Creationism Eureka! From: Don Firth Date: 02 Mar 12 - 07:12 PM Just checking to see if you were awake, pete. That was Moses, of course. Noah just drifted around on it. Or near it. Maybe. You'd be amazed at the number of evangelists who don't catch that. But whoever it was, we can be certain that he was played by Charleton Heston. ==== As to matters of erosion, I think you'll find that this falls more under the heading of geology than evolution. Don Firth |
|
Subject: RE: BS: Young Earth Creationism Eureka! From: GUEST,Suibhne Astray Date: 02 Mar 12 - 07:36 PM Metaphor. NOT literal. The Abrahamic Tradition, Christ included, seems to take such things pretty literally, with the whole thing geared up to an after-life of paradise or purgatory*. So, what gives here? * Yes, I know purgatory isn't Hell as such, but for sake of the alliteration, and the very literal theology of the RCC... |
|
Subject: RE: BS: Young Earth Creationism Eureka! From: Penny S. Date: 03 Mar 12 - 03:44 AM Pete, that was a response to being told what I believe by someone who doesn't believe any of it. It got my dander up a bit. I'll gve a glance to that chalk piece - missed the TV, though. Penny |
|
Subject: RE: BS: Young Earth Creationism Eureka! From: Penny S. Date: 03 Mar 12 - 04:16 AM I've had a look at the Snelling piece, which includes some good descriptive stuff, but misses some vital information out. There are some answers to him here. Answers in Creation (That looks like a site you should find interesting. It's a group who still regard the Bible as inerrant.) The points that occurred to me are that he bases his arguments to start with on deposition to the deep ocean floor - chalk forms on shallow shelves, which is were the blooms he describes occur. The flood is described in many places as turbulent. Chalk requires tranquil conditions. He does not address hard grounds when the chalk ooze floor was occupied by various living things which have left their fossils. He supposes that the growth of carbonate shells depends solely on the availability of CO2, whereas calcium ions are also needed, and this needs the dissolving of exposed rocks by acid rains (all rain is slightly acid, which is why the supply of calcium is slow.) he does not address this point. He does mention the increase of nutrients by the stirring up of soils etc, but this is not going to happen in clean water. He mentions abundant vulcanism as a source for C02 and nutrients. We know that volcanoes erupted during the formation of the chalk, as there are traces of the ash. Traces which look for all the world like fossilised cigarette smoke, and only occur in a few layers, widely separated. Not a vast amount of vulcanism, then. Again, what he describes is not clean water. He looks impressive, but he leaves out the material which doesn't suit him. I couldn't find the erosion piece - though did spot him challenging the absence of historic erosion surface by looking at the Grand Canyon, and not well known unconformities. The main experts on the Chalk are Rory Mortimore and Andrew Gale, and you could do worse than look them up. Penny PS Thanks for the compliment on other posts PS |
|
Subject: RE: BS: Young Earth Creationism Eureka! From: DMcG Date: 03 Mar 12 - 04:40 AM Still not *really* joing in the thread, but it is worth thinking about David Attenborough's recent quotation about a film involving polar bears: "How far do you take this? 'This is a penguin but actually it's a different penguin colony than we did for that one' - come on. We're making movies." And that's right. TV programmes, whatever their other merits, have 'being a successful programme' rather higher in the stakes than accuracy or completeness. A detailed explanation of what is needed to allow chalk deposits would, quite literally, have been 'a turn off'. Showing less famous sites is less entertaining than the Grand Canyon, which looks spectacular even if no-one is actually listening. There was an interesting lecture by Brian Cox (I assume US readers know who that is as well) in which he concentrated on this tension and the sheer effort it took to try and present something that might be quite complicated in a way a novice can understand without damaging the scientific accuracy too much. It is visible here. I apologise that that's on one of Dawkin's sites, but that doesn't affect the content, which was for one of the better lecture series in the UK. So in short: TV currently, and certainly for most channels, puts the Reithian goal to 'entertain' higher than the one for 'educate'. They can be, and are, good sources to inspire thought, but its best to look elsewhere for hard facts. |
|
Subject: RE: BS: Young Earth Creationism Eureka! From: DMcG Date: 03 Mar 12 - 04:43 AM Aggh! Having found the lecture I didn't actually play it, and now I find YouTube have taken it down. I'll see if I can find it elsewhere. Sorry! |
|
Subject: RE: BS: Young Earth Creationism Eureka! From: GUEST,Suibhne Astray Date: 03 Mar 12 - 04:48 AM David Attenborough's recent quotation about a film involving polar bears: "How far do you take this? 'This is a penguin but actually it's a different penguin colony than we did for that one' - come on. We're making movies." Polar Bears and Penguins? Polar opposites! |
|
Subject: RE: BS: Young Earth Creationism Eureka! From: DMcG Date: 03 Mar 12 - 04:54 AM I couldn't find the whole programma by Cox, but there are some clips here Polar Bears and Penguins? Polar opposites! Brilliant! I laughed at that one, SA. But it's not entirely stupidity on my part - for a change! The row was raised about filming polar bears and penguins came up during the discussion. |
|
Subject: RE: BS: Young Earth Creationism Eureka! From: Greg F. Date: 03 Mar 12 - 12:00 PM Another "true believer': March 3, 2012 Albuquerque man finds 'Jesus' on a tortilla Associated Press ALBUQUERQUE, N.M. — An Albuquerque man says he has found Jesus on a tortilla. KOAT-TV reports that David Sandoval said he saw the image of the Lord on the tortilla while preparing to eat on Ash Wednesday last week. He said he couldn't believe what he was seeing and passed the tortilla bearing the face of Jesus to his mother, who also expressed surprised. After seeing the image, Sandoval opted not to eat it. Instead, he said posted a photo of the tortilla on Facebook and his family is looking for ways to preserve it. Sandoval said he felt it was a sign since it appeared on the first day of Lent--the Catholic period of fasting and prayer before Easter. He said those who see the tortilla have called it a miracle. |
|
Subject: RE: BS: Young Earth Creationism Eureka! From: frogprince Date: 03 Mar 12 - 01:52 PM Greg F, this one's for you. |
|
Subject: RE: BS: Young Earth Creationism Eureka! From: Don Firth Date: 03 Mar 12 - 03:55 PM There has to be something in the minds of people who have this kind of experience that divorces them from reality. I believe that's called "psychosis." I can't recall where it was, but a few years ago someone "saw" an image of the Virgin Mary on the side of a tall building. He noised it around, and people started gathering at this new, miraculous "shrine," praying and waiting for miracles of healing and such. The image was without detail. Nothing more than a silhouette. If you squinted a bit and used your imagination a lot, you could make it look like the shape of someone with a shawl over his/her head. There was no way, beyond a leap of the imagination, to identify it as a human shape, and certainly no way of differentiating gender. In fact the image appeared after a particularly heavy rain. Less imaginative people with a certain knowledge of construction said that it was a water stain in the building's concrete façade. This accounted for the fact that it appeared after rain and disappeared after a couple of dry, sunny days. Yet, dozens of people were absolutely convinced that this was a miraculous image of the Virgin Mary. Keep in mind that we have no idea of what Mary looked like other than artists' conceptions, mostly depictions in Renaissance paintings. CLICKY. If one took an objective look at the water stain, it could just as easily have been Sugarloaf Mountain hovering over Rio de Janeiro: CLICKY. Some folks see, not what is there, but what they want to see. (Perhaps they should be careful, lest what is actually there might be THIS sinister fellow). Don Firth |
|
Subject: RE: BS: Young Earth Creationism Eureka! From: Bill D Date: 03 Mar 12 - 04:45 PM "...he felt it was a sign since it appeared on the first day of Lent" wow...what if it had appeared on Mohammed's birthday! |
|
Subject: RE: BS: Young Earth Creationism Eureka! From: Greg F. Date: 03 Mar 12 - 05:09 PM Thanks, frogprince- I'd thought that the Vatican had busted Saint Brace Beemer the same time they chucked out Saint Christopher. Good to know he still shows up from time to time. |
|
Subject: RE: BS: Young Earth Creationism Eureka! From: Don Firth Date: 03 Mar 12 - 05:16 PM Brace Beemer. Now, THERE was a VOICE! Don Firth |
|
Subject: RE: BS: Young Earth Creationism Eureka! From: Greg F. Date: 03 Mar 12 - 09:19 PM You bet! & don't forget Saint Fred Foy - tho I don't think he's shown up on any tortillas- at least, not recently. |
|
Subject: RE: BS: Young Earth Creationism Eureka! From: GUEST,Iona Date: 04 Mar 12 - 02:47 AM I haven't had time to write much on my responses lately, but I thought I'd drop this pretty little bomb of a quote to give y'all something to beat me up over while I'm away. :) I think it pretty well addresses the fact that some of you seem to expect God to lower himself to a level where He can be judged on the same plain as mortals--which He's nowhere near doing, and we're awfully arrogant to demand Him to do. _______________________________________________________ "The secret things belong to the LORD our God, but the things revealed belong to us and to our children forever, that we may follow all the words of this law." Deuteronomy 29:28 "For My thoughts are not your thoughts--neither are your ways My ways," declares the LORD. "As the heavens are higher than the earth--so are My ways higher than your ways, and My thoughts than your thoughts!" Isaiah 55:8-9 The difficulties and mysteries of Scripture, necessarily result from the relations between God and man: God the infinite--man the finite; God the holy--man the sinner; God a Spirit--man a creature of flesh and blood; God in Heaven--man on earth; God inhabiting eternity--and man the creature of a day; God the Sovereign of the universe--and man the tiny, puny rebel to His throne. Mark these contrasts--measure their diversity. The very statement of them shows how impossible it is for man to be able to fully comprehend God or His dealings. The question was asked of old, "Who, by searching, can find out God? Who can find out the Almighty?" And Solomon, the wisest of men, declared, "It is the glory of God to conceal a matter." For if man knew as much as God--he must have the mind of God and the wisdom of God! For eighteen hundred years the mind of man, with its measuring lines--has been endeavoring to fully understand God and His ways, and compute the measurements of His great truths--and yet they are no nearer the solution now, than when first revealed. There they stand in the firmament of theology, the great unresolvable nebulae of revelation; and no magnifying power of man's optics, and no space-penetrating power of man's devising--can unfold those mysteries, which at once challenge and test, the faith of man. There can be no revelation of God which is free from mysteries--because human language cannot embody celestial thoughts and modes of divine existence. And the human mind could not comprehend terms and phrases which would truly reflect the person, glory, and work of the Almighty. Divine thoughts, before they can be taken into our minds, have to be diluted into human words. Divine things have to be symbolized to us, by human or earthly types. And divine beings have to be described to us, by terms borrowed from human existences and of purely earthly signification. Hence, in the process of translation, dilution, and illustration--no one attribute of God, no one truth of God--can be fully revealed and understood. We can only see the earthly side and the earthly terminus--the heavenly side and the heavenly starting-point, are all beyond our reach--far away out of sight! And there we must be content to let it be, ever standing with our eyes upturned to Jesus, holding in one hand the great doctrines of revealed truth, and in the other the precious assurances: "What I am doing, you do not understand now; but you shall know hereafter." John 13:7 "Now we see but a poor reflection as in a mirror; then we shall see face to face. Now I know in part; then I shall know fully, even as I am fully known." 1 Corinthians 13:12 (William Bacon Stevens, "Follow Me!") |
|
Subject: RE: BS: Young Earth Creationism Eureka! From: DMcG Date: 04 Mar 12 - 03:54 AM Divine things have to be symbolized to us, by human or earthly types. And divine beings have to be described to us, by terms borrowed from human existences and of purely earthly signification. Hence, in the process of translation, dilution, and illustration--no one attribute of God, no one truth of God--can be fully revealed and understood.. Iona: reflect on those words. Read them at least four or five times and spend perhaps 20 minutes thinking about them. What do they imply about the Bible as revealing the mind of God? I suspect William Bacon Stevens didn't really think about them either ... |
|
Subject: RE: BS: Young Earth Creationism Eureka! From: Penny S. Date: 04 Mar 12 - 04:41 AM I think it pretty well addresses the fact that some of you seem to expect God to lower himself to a level where He can be judged on the same plain as mortals--which He's nowhere near doing, and we're awfully arrogant to demand Him to do. Dear Iona, what do you think the incarnation was about? Penny |
|
Subject: RE: BS: Young Earth Creationism Eureka! From: GUEST,Shimrod Date: 04 Mar 12 - 05:22 AM The Rich are the infinite--the poor are the finite; The Rich are holy--the poor are sinners; The Rich are Spirits--the poor are creatures of flesh and blood; The Rich are in Heaven--the poor are on earth; The Rich inhabit eternity--and the poor the creatures of a day; The Rich are the Sovereigns of the universe--and the poor are the tiny, puny rebels to Their throne. Mark these contrasts--measure their diversity. The very statement of them shows how impossible it is for the poor to be able to fully comprehend the Rich or Their dealings. Religion: an instrument of social control. |
|
Subject: RE: BS: Young Earth Creationism Eureka! From: Greg F. Date: 04 Mar 12 - 09:30 AM And, in Iona's case, evidently an instrument of mind control. |
|
Subject: RE: BS: Young Earth Creationism Eureka! From: GUEST,Ian Mather sans cookie Date: 04 Mar 12 - 12:10 PM This thread has been going longer than the earth has, if fairy stories are to be believed. And we have now reached the stage where we re not allowed to know the mind of god and wouldn't understand anyway. If god wants to raise himself to my level, I'm all ears. Pity he can't then. I reckon we slightly misheard when he said he was omnipotent. My mate reckons Viagra works wonders in such matters. Mind you, worrying all about the world, even the bits no bugger had heard of when they wrote the bible (s). No wonder he is omnipotent, must be the worrying about us and not capable of telling us where we went wrong. I can tell him though, it's when people started relying on him to cure the world's ills. Poor old sod, almost feel sorry for him. |
|
Subject: RE: BS: Young Earth Creationism Eureka! From: GUEST,pete from seven stars link Date: 04 Mar 12 - 03:18 PM dmcg-not away long but nice to see you back anyway. i see what you are getting at, but in christian teaching the idea that the essence and ways of God can not be explained to man with his limitations is balanced by what he has revealed.as penny rightly implies;the incarnation was/is a revelation of God. and for christians the bible has historically been regarded as Gods revelation .while most here do not accept it could have come from God even if they have some semblance of a faith,i say if God is ,why should he not give us his word.of course,not all the bible is perfectly clear but there is more than enough to get on with while still having much to exercise the minds of the theologically inclined. as quoted earlier- the secret things belong to the Lord our God BUT the things that ARE revealed belong unto us .... |
|
Subject: RE: BS: Young Earth Creationism Eureka! From: Don Firth Date: 04 Mar 12 - 03:29 PM ". . . some of you seem to expect God to lower himself to a level where He can be judged on the same plain as mortals--which He's nowhere near doing, and we're awfully arrogant to demand Him to do." Iona, your understanding of Christian doctrine is way deficient. What do you think God's Incarnation in the form of Jesus the Christ was all about? By the way, since you don't answer my questions—quite simple questions, really—the only conclusion I can come to is that you don't care to answer. When your time comes, will you be judged as a sheep or a goat (see Matthew 25, verses previously cited)? You don't need to answer me, but I think that, for the good of your soul, you should give it some serious thought. Don Firth |
|
Subject: RE: BS: Young Earth Creationism Eureka! From: DMcG Date: 04 Mar 12 - 03:29 PM Oh, I'm not staying long! I said I'd comment on things I found irresistable, but I won't be getting into any detailed discussion. In this case, when Iona called in evidence something that contradicts her case, well, what is one to do? |
|
Subject: RE: BS: Young Earth Creationism Eureka! From: Penny S. Date: 04 Mar 12 - 03:40 PM Pete, it is possible to regard the Bible as a revelation without regarding it as historical or scientific fact. I was going to post just the refrain of this hymn (look guys, music stuff), but I thought the verses were relevant too. We limit not the truth of God To our poor reach of mind, By notions of our day and sect, Crude, partial, and confined. No, let a new and better hope Within our hearts be stirred: Refrain The Lord hath yet more light and truth To break forth from His Word. Darkling our great forefathers went The first steps of the way; 'Twas but the dawning yet to grow Into the perfect day. And grow it shall, our glorious sun More fervid rays afford: Refrain The valleys passed, ascending still, Our souls would higher climb, And look down from supernal heights On all the bygone time. Upward we press, the air is clear, And the sphere-music heard: Refrain O Father, Son, and Spirit, send Us increase from above; Enlarge, expand all Christian souls To comprehend Thy love, And make us to go on, to know With nobler powers conferred: Refrain It can still be profitable to teach about God. (Though I must admit, some parts of the OT - the story of Dinah springs to mind, as does Jephthah's daughter - are a bit difficult to find light in.) Penny |
|
Subject: RE: BS: Young Earth Creationism Eureka! From: GUEST,Suibhne Astray Date: 04 Mar 12 - 04:38 PM in christian teaching the idea that the essence and ways of God can not be explained to man with his limitations is balanced by what he has revealed A very human thing to say really. I think the essence of God is easily explained & understood. 1) We create God to 'explain' the things we can't explain. 2) We hang on to the concept as a means of social control. Simple! |
|
Subject: RE: BS: Young Earth Creationism Eureka! From: Paul Burke Date: 04 Mar 12 - 04:39 PM A step further along understanding how insects remodel their bodies - we all know thw wonder of the caterpiller/chrysalis/butterfly. The trite response of "creation" won't do for the enquiring mind. We still don't know. But we know a little bit more. It amazes me that some people are impervious to the wonder of life. |
|
Subject: RE: BS: Young Earth Creationism Eureka! From: Bill D Date: 04 Mar 12 - 06:56 PM *sneaking back for a moment* pete remarked on: "the idea that the essence and ways of God can not be explained to man with his limitations" Right... like one survivor of a plane crash crawling out and intoning.."God was with me!".... we just can't understand why all those others were not worth God's time & concern. It's just.....a mystery. Very convenient.... |
|
Subject: RE: BS: Young Earth Creationism Eureka! From: Steve Shaw Date: 05 Mar 12 - 04:59 AM Yes, Bill. A bit like prayer, too, when you're asking for something. If I pray for Liverpool to beat Arsenal, I'm also asking that Arsenal get beaten. If I ask God to help someone to recover from illness, I'm asking him to exacerbate the world overcrowding problem and put an even greater burden on the young having to look after the old. And so on. Good stuff, this Christianity lark. Sometimes it just isn't very, er, Christian. |
|
Subject: RE: BS: Young Earth Creationism Eureka! From: Penny S. Date: 05 Mar 12 - 05:08 AM There are two things that get me about prayer - one that Steve has put. The other being that if God is omniscient and all-good, why do we have to ask? There are complex answers to this about what prayer is really about, and praying for things isn't really the heart of it, but intercession is most people's most common understanding. That and the growing belief in a prosperity gospel. A bit like the Lottery. Winning means that you have in your bank account millions of stakes paid in by people who couldn't really afford it, and might well have needed to win more than you. Penny |
|
Subject: RE: BS: Young Earth Creationism Eureka! From: GUEST,Suibhne Astray Date: 05 Mar 12 - 05:15 AM The rich man at his castle, The poor man at his gate, God made them high and lowly, And ordered their estate... All together now: All things bright and beautiful... |
|
Subject: RE: BS: Young Earth Creationism Eureka! From: Penny S. Date: 05 Mar 12 - 05:23 AM My grandmother was taught that stuff. She was supposed to bob a curtsey to carriage folk, because the fact that they had a carriage was a sign that God thought they were better than her. Guess what? She didn't. (It was that story which made her a real person to me.) I hope this isn't a repeat post. Penny |
|
Subject: RE: BS: Young Earth Creationism Eureka! From: GUEST,Shimrod Date: 05 Mar 12 - 05:44 AM "I think the essence of God is easily explained & understood. 1) We create God to 'explain' the things we can't explain. 2) We hang on to the concept as a means of social control." It's number 2) which fascinates me: For centuries the Romans persecuted Christians - crucified them, turned them into 'living torches', fed them to lions etc. (I'll refrain from cheap cracks about, "come back Rome ..." etc.). But this harsh treatment only encouraged them - Christians actually wanted to die an agonising death like Jesus! In spite of the persecution the number of Christians within the Empire continued to grow exponentially (then, as now, there were lots of gullible idiots about). Then, in the 4th century, the Emperor Constantine had a brainwave: "If you can't beat 'em, join 'em!" And not only join them but make Christianity the official religion of the Empire! It was a great wheeze, with lots going for it. After all Christians only worshipped one God (actually a God divided into 3 parts ... eeerrr? ... but we'll skip over that theological nicety). There are obvious analogies between an all-seeing, omnipotent, patriarchal God and a Roman Emperor (or, rather, a Roman Emperor aspired to a state of all-seeing, omnipotent patriarchy). And it's probably no coincidence that the Roman Empire was in the process of splitting in two at this stage in its history - something which, no doubt, would have irked a big shot like Constantine. But what was even better was that Christians tolerated the condition of poverty! The poor's reward for a life of toil and suffering is, of course, in Heaven. This meant that Constantine and his cronies could keep more of the Empire's wealth for themselves (relatively guilt-free) and there was less chance of social unrest or outright rebellion - perfect! It's probably no coincidence that the present day American Right supports Christianity (the more 'fundamental' the better). This allows corporate America to get richer and richer whilst discouraging the poor (kept in a state of ignorance by nonsense like YEC) from rebelling - again, perfect - if you're a hyper-rich American! |
|
Subject: RE: BS: Young Earth Creationism Eureka! From: Penny S. Date: 05 Mar 12 - 05:48 AM Funny the bits they don't see, isn't it? Needles. Eyes of. Matt 19:21 Luke 18:22 Mark 10:21 Penny |
|
Subject: RE: BS: Young Earth Creationism Eureka! From: Steve Shaw Date: 05 Mar 12 - 06:11 AM We create God to 'explain' the things we can't explain. That's right, but the creation of God for this purpose is the ultimate illogicality. The things we can't explain are continually being closed in on by good science, yet somehow we still seem to need a being that explains them anyway (in the most intellectually dull manner possible) yet is completely inexplicable himself (and always will be). Who among us thinks that a satisfactory answer to a question is not actually an answer at all, but an infinitely more difficult question? |
|
Subject: RE: BS: Young Earth Creationism Eureka! From: GUEST,Shimrod Date: 05 Mar 12 - 08:09 AM "Funny the bits they don't see, isn't it? Needles. Eyes of." Yes, Penny, but that assumes that the rich really believe in the religion in the first place - perhaps many of them are ruthless, cynical psycopaths who, like Constantine, have worked out that, in many people, those religious 'buttons' are there to be pressed to their advantage. And if they really are sincere in their beliefs then they can always atone for their 'sinful state' by giving 'lots' (i.e. tiny fractions of their net wealth) to charity ("He's a lovely guy, that Atilla the Hun, he gives loads to 'charidy'!") |
|
Subject: RE: BS: Young Earth Creationism Eureka! From: Penny S. Date: 05 Mar 12 - 08:35 AM I don't think I was assuming anything of the sort. The nearest I would come to being charitable to the poor little rich guys would be to say "there's none so blind as those that won't see," and suggest that their upbringing had fitted them with blinkers, so that, perhaps, they actually can't see, and don't know that they can't. But I'd have to be pretty sure I wasn't walking round with a dirty great plank in my eye first. Penny |
|
Subject: RE: BS: Young Earth Creationism Eureka! From: GUEST,Suibhne Astray Date: 05 Mar 12 - 09:06 AM Funny the bits they don't see, isn't it? Needles. Eyes of. I dare say there'll be someone alomg soon us to tell us about some imaginary narrow gateway in Jerusalem that was difficult to get camels along that was known in the vernacular as the Eye of the Needle. But no - it's a rather hyperbolic metaphor on the evils of material wealth the unambiguity of which makes Christians squirm to this day. In the context of the Biblical Bloodbath (basically everything from Genesis to Revelation) it seems weird that you have this amazing respite in the teachings of Jesus which shine forth as a humanist beacon & yet have little bearing (to say the least) on subsequent Christian theology which is more hung up on the mythical framework of his life (Virgin Birth, Death & Resurection) that what he actually said & did. So simple really. How do we get from that to the 2000-year inhuman Reich of the Holy Roman Church and the rabings of the ultra Right Wing American fundentalists? And just WWJD in the face of it? I would have thought it was pretty obvious really, just as I'm sure his take on such inane mumbo jumbo as YEC, Glossolalia and Transubstantiation would make for very interesting reading indeed. |
|
Subject: RE: BS: Young Earth Creationism Eureka! From: Steve Shaw Date: 05 Mar 12 - 09:20 AM Another piece of progressive Christianity revealed by a survey (see Grauniad website): faith schools, particularly C of E and Roman Catholic ones, are cherry-picking the best kids. Now who'd have thought it - so Christian of them... |
|
Subject: RE: BS: Young Earth Creationism Eureka! From: Don(Wyziwyg)T Date: 05 Mar 12 - 10:24 AM ""The very statement of them shows how impossible it is for man to be able to fully comprehend God or His dealings."" And yet you purport to understand well enough that you will not only recommend, but demand, that your interpretation be accepted over the weight of evidence of hundreds of years of human experimental evidence, and the inescapable conclusions drawn therefrom. Conclusions, moreover, which have been tested, reproduced and where necessary altered to accommodate new techniques and technologies. Against this the best you can offer is your opinion based on books of jumbled up history and mythology, re-written who knows how many times by MEN with many different agendas, but all wanting to control the lives of various populations. You give yourself airs lass, and you do your faith little credit. Don T. |
|
Subject: RE: BS: Young Earth Creationism Eureka! From: Penny S. Date: 05 Mar 12 - 10:32 AM Steve, they haven't just been cherry picking the best. For years, the school I taught at frequently took in children with behavioural problems who had previously been at the local RC primary, which had excluded them. Not just church schools though. One non-faith school nearby had, so I was told by a neighbour who was a parent there, no special needs children except G&T. They had identified her son as one. I'm not sure which criteria they used. I tutored him for the entrance to a local grammar school which had a maths test which went beyond the maths included in the primary curriculum. He wasn't interested in things. Penny |
|
Subject: RE: BS: Young Earth Creationism Eureka! From: Don(Wyziwyg)T Date: 05 Mar 12 - 10:46 AM ""of course,not all the bible is perfectly clear but there is more than enough to get on with while still having much to exercise the minds of the theologically inclined."" More than enough, as you say, to keep the minds of the population occupied to the exclusion of thoughts about the difference in lifestyles between them and the aristocracy upon whose patronage the clergy depended. ""as quoted earlier-the secret things belong to the Lord our God BUT the things that ARE revealed belong unto us ...."" This is the biggest joke of all. Do you not know that the bible and its "revelations" have been hidden from the eyes of the majority of Christians, and that those revelations were carefully doled out by Popes who included among their number, womanising murderers such as Pope Alexander VI (Roderigo Borgia), and Bishops and Cardinals who treated convents as personal harems. Seems to me a bit of a stretch that these types were diseminating the "Word of God", or that they cared much for the accuracy of their revelations. The ordinary citizen was not taught to read and write, and the few who were didn't even get to read the bible until the invention of the printing press. Don T. |
|
Subject: RE: BS: Young Earth Creationism Eureka! From: Penny S. Date: 05 Mar 12 - 10:53 AM I have heard a story about a medieval bishop in France, who on coming across a text from the Bible in translation (probably the Magnificat or one of the texts above) asked who had written the appalling stuff, and then insisted that it be kept from the people. Penny |
|
Subject: RE: BS: Young Earth Creationism Eureka! From: Steve Shaw Date: 05 Mar 12 - 11:38 AM Penny, I taught in a Catholic secondary school in the East End in the 70s. Not a Muslim child in sight - in a secondary school in that area! |
|
Subject: RE: BS: Young Earth Creationism Eureka! From: GUEST,999 Date: 06 Mar 12 - 09:40 AM "And not only join them but make Christianity the official religion of the Empire!" Things changed after the Battle of Malvian Bridge 312 (?) CE and they were reinforced at the First Council of Nicaea in 325 CE. However, Constantine shaded his bets because coins of that era show both a cross and Ra (the sun god imported from Egypt) on coins of the day. Constantine himself didn't become a Christian until he was on his death bed. |
|
Subject: RE: BS: Young Earth Creationism Eureka! From: Mr Happy Date: 06 Mar 12 - 10:06 AM Can't wait for Iona's next thrilling instalment of this serial! |
|
Subject: RE: BS: Young Earth Creationism Eureka! From: Bill D Date: 06 Mar 12 - 11:43 AM I think Constantine used Pascal's Wager centuries before Pascal..... and in fact, Christian doctrine is configured that way... "not only is our way 'good', but that 'ol devil will getcha iffn you stray!" Tends to scare 'em into line.... a scraggly line, but then the idea of "death bed conversion and salvation" allows many to live like they want and still hedge their bets.... such a deal! |
|
Subject: RE: BS: Young Earth Creationism Eureka! From: Paul Burke Date: 06 Mar 12 - 01:21 PM It wasn't Ra, it was Solly Invictus. And only 20 years later the now- established Christians were having heretics executed. |
