BS: America commits war crimes.

Subject: RE: BS: America commits war crimes.
From: Once Famous
Date: 16 Nov 04 - 07:11 PM

It's so easy for you UKers to bash America.

It must be hard everyday waking up in a second rate country.

There.

Deal with it. I am just sick of you pukes who have nothing to do but bash America on this American web site.

Subject: RE: BS: America commits war crimes.
From: Greg F.
Date: 16 Nov 04 - 07:11 PM

Now he's no longer in the cabinet, they can send Colin Powell to investigate. He'll doubtless reportback as he did on My Lai- nothing to the charges, completely groundless.

Subject: RE: BS: America commits war crimes.
From: Bobert
Date: 16 Nov 04 - 07:26 PM

Let's get real here, folks...

Ummmmm, sure the US guity of war crimes but like who is going to arrest US????

No one, that's who.

Why?

Do you have to ask?

Face it. The way that the US views war crimes is that they are for the *other folks*. Not US...

Yeah, you can throw out the Geneva rules on the US. If they wanta torture prisoners they just jet them to a country, like Syria or Egypt, and have it done there. This is very much in violation of the Geneva Convention.

But. like who is gonna arrest US?

Canada?

Switzerland?

Norway?

Well, I got news for Mr Bush and Ms. Rice and the rest of these folks who are trying to build this new American Empire. They will be held accountable. Maybe not in this life but God has somethin' waitin' fir 'um....

Bobert

Subject: RE: BS: America commits war crimes.
From: kendall
Date: 16 Nov 04 - 07:50 PM

Doug, when my country does something good, I am proud. When it does something bad, I say so. Period. The problem with you conservatives is, you never see the bad, you have tunnel vision.

Subject: RE: BS: America commits war crimes.
From: Rt Revd Sir jOhn from Hull
Date: 16 Nov 04 - 08:02 PM

Well said Kendall.

Subject: RE: BS: America commits war crimes.
From: beardedbruce
Date: 16 Nov 04 - 08:02 PM

From the Fourth Geneva Convention:


"Nationals of a State which is not bound by the Convention are not protected by it. Nationals of a neutral State who find themselves in the territory of a belligerent State, and nationals of a co-belligerent State, shall not be regarded as protected persons while the State of which they are nationals has normal diplomatic representation in the State in whose hands they are."


Are the mmember here ready to tell me that the "insurgents", "Terrorists", etc are acting in a manner that indicates THEY are bound by the Geneva Convention? If not, THEY have forfieted the rights that you seem to give them.

The problem with some people here is that they do not have an understanding of what they are talking about. If members of the US forces commit acts that are illegal under the UCMJ, they will be procequted: Where are the requests that the other side be held to international law, if you feel that they are justified in murdering civilians, taking hostages, and "violence to life and person, in particular murder of all kinds, mutilation, cruel treatment and torture;" ?

I have no problem in a discussuin of the possible war crimes being commited, but it seem sto me that it is bigotry of the worst sort to only talk about the isolated cases on one side, and ignore the massive number of crimes being committed by the other.

Subject: RE: BS: America commits war crimes.
From: Peace
Date: 16 Nov 04 - 08:10 PM

The UCMJ is one type of 'trial'. Having the offenders of both sides brought before an international court would certainly make a difference IMO. An American soldier being tried by his/her military makes as much sense as a terrorist being tried by the country that harbours him/her.

Subject: RE: BS: America commits war crimes.
From: GUEST,US
Date: 16 Nov 04 - 08:12 PM

Now some of the silent majority who just read the threads are coming to the defense of America. They are tired of seeing the rantings of those who want to see America defeated.

When the terrorists go by the Geneva Convention they might get treated the same way. They are not an army. The Geneva Convention applies to war between armys.

I want to see America succeed and win the war on terrorism.

Uncle Sam

Subject: RE: BS: America commits war crimes.
From: artbrooks
Date: 16 Nov 04 - 08:14 PM

The Uniform Code of Military Justice (UCMJ) is not a trial. It is a set of laws, passed by the US Congress, which regulate the conduct of members of the US military. It is said that the innocent are better off if tried under the UCMJ, while the guilty are more likely to be let off by a civilian court.

Subject: RE: BS: America commits war crimes.
From: Bobert
Date: 16 Nov 04 - 08:22 PM

America defetas itself when if falls to the level of terrorists...

Bobert

Subject: RE: BS: America commits war crimes.
From: Peace
Date: 16 Nov 04 - 08:22 PM

Thus I wrote it this way: "The UCMJ is one type of 'trial'."

Subject: RE: BS: America commits war crimes.
From: Peace
Date: 16 Nov 04 - 08:24 PM

The Uniform Code of Military Justice (UCMJ) is the bedrock of military law. The UCMJ is a federal law, enacted by Congress. Articles 77 through 134 of the UCMJ are known as the "punitive articles," -- that is, specific offenses which, if violated, can result in punishment by court-martial.

The law requires the Commander-in-Chief (The President of the United States) to implement the provisions of the UCMJ. The President does this via an executive order known as the "Manual for Court Martial" (MCM). Chapter 4 of the MCM includes, and expands on the punitive articles. The MCM divides the punitive articles into six parts: The text, elements of the offense, an explanation, lesser included offenses, maximum permissible punishments, and sample specifications.

Subject: RE: BS: America commits war crimes.
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 16 Nov 04 - 08:46 PM

If it's a "war on terrorism" the first thing is to stop the people you actually command acting as terrorists.

That at least ought to be common ground between us. There is room for dispute as to whether some action might be war crime or not, but there can be no disagreement that war crimes ought to be prveneted and oubnished, whoever commits them.

The International War Crimes Trubunal only exists to try war crimes where the counties concerned are unable or unwilling to deal with them. By refusing to accede to this court form its own citizens the USA has in effect pledge that it will carry out its of bringing to trial any of its citizens reasonably accused of such crimes, and punishing them appropriately, if they are found guilty.

This would, of course, in any case, have meant that the International War Crimes Tribunal would not have been involved, even if it did have jurisdiction.

In the past, notably in the case of Vietnam the United States has on many people's eyes failed to act in this way. No doubt it will do better in future, and will fulfil this important duty. And it would seem to me that any patriotic American would see it that way, and would see this as one of the ways in which America can give the rest of the world a good example of how a democracy can function.

Subject: RE: BS: America commits war crimes.
From: Ebbie
Date: 16 Nov 04 - 09:04 PM

Torture and other violent acts on people of nonsignatory nations just 'because we can' is harmful beyond measure to ourselves. Most of these men and women will eventully return home. "What did you do in the war, Daddy?"

Subject: RE: BS: America commits war crimes.
From: beardedbruce
Date: 16 Nov 04 - 09:21 PM

Ebbie,

ANd it is against the UMCJ. But you notice the US is prosecuting violators- Have you seen AANY trials by the terrorists?

Subject: RE: BS: America commits war crimes.
From: GUEST,US
Date: 16 Nov 04 - 09:23 PM

MGH:

I define terrorism as the acts of the opposition to Democracy in Iraq.

These actions include broadcasting videotaped threats to kill all Americans and beheading of civilian hostages.

This is not what the Coalition forces are doing.

Liberal wimps, sympathetic to the terrorist "cause", have a way of defining the actions of soldiers in a war as terrorist acts. Then they claim the actions of terrorists are acts of self defense and perfectly acceptable.

May you become a casualty of a terrorist's action to defend himself. May you plead for your life and scream horribly whie you head is being removed. Then you will know the true definition of terrorism.

Uncle Sam

Subject: RE: BS: America commits war crimes.
From: Ebbie
Date: 16 Nov 04 - 09:30 PM

Ya just don't lissen do ya. No one here has been saying that the 'terrorists' and 'insurgents' are doing good things. We ARE saying that we expect more from our side.

As far as trials in Iraq go, I haven't heard that the court system is up and running. Hard to do when you yourself are running.

Subject: RE: BS: America commits war crimes.
From: beardedbruce
Date: 16 Nov 04 - 09:36 PM

Ebbie,

And I DO expect more. WHICH I SEE- there have been , and continue to be trials of those who violate the UCMJ.

BUT THIS THREAD is blaming the US for the actions of individuals, yet not placing any blame at all upon the actions of the other side. As I said, this is blatent propaganda for the terrorists. If you want to discuss war crimes, fine- but try to at least pretend that you have a balanced viewpoint.

And how about trials in any of the other countries where Al-Quida exists? WHere is the moaning from the Islamic pulpits about the war crimes being committed in the name of Islam? I hear a vast silence.

Subject: RE: BS: America commits war crimes.
From: Ebbie
Date: 16 Nov 04 - 09:42 PM

Unless I attend 'Islamic pulpits" I don't expect to hear much discussion of the Muslim side. I have no way of knowing what they say or think, other than what is reported in the media.

BeardedBruce, if you have the time check back and see what has been said here about both the Iraqi crimes and the Coalition crimes (I'm assuming there have been some dodgy actions by other members of the Coalition. At least if it is war tension that is allowing this to happen.) Then come back and tell us when and where we on the Mudcat have condoned or approved any Iraqi crimes.

Subject: RE: BS: America commits war crimes.
From: Peace
Date: 16 Nov 04 - 09:43 PM

Likely the reason for the vast silence is that if ya speak up, ya take a long long vacation real soon afterwards.

Subject: RE: BS: America commits war crimes.
From: DougR
Date: 16 Nov 04 - 09:49 PM

Sure, Beardedbruce, we have seen "trials" by the terrorists. They are called beheadings.

Equating the scum that the coalition forces are defeating in Iraq with the brave young soldiers of many nations who are defeating them is sickening. McGrath is concerned about he lack of humanity (as he defines it) shown to wounded terrorists is way off base in my opinion. The terrorists are scum of the earth and have to be eradicated, wounded or not.

There will be a brief pause while McGrath, Ebbie, Bobert, Greg F. and all the other apologists for the terrorist sympathizers observe a moment of silence for my condemded soul.

DougR

Subject: RE: BS: America commits war crimes.
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 16 Nov 04 - 10:02 PM

I've never been to hear a sermon in a mosque. I know that there have been sermons in mosques denouncing terrorism. I knon there have also been sermons in churches denouncing terrorism including terrorism carried out by "our side".

Terrorism, in my definition - and it's a definition consistent with how the word has been frequently used, and with its origin describing the activities of governments - is activity which is aimed at achieving some political or military objective by the use of methods which intentionally kill or injure non-combatants and innocent citizens.

Taking people prisoner and killing them is terrorism. Exploding bombs aimed at killing civilians is terrorism. People who organise such activities are terrorists.

That applies to the people on "the other side", of course it does. But nobody here is saying that they are right to do these things. There are people who apparently believe that it is right when "our side" does them.

Subject: RE: BS: America commits war crimes.
From: Ebbie
Date: 16 Nov 04 - 10:06 PM

Doug, you flatter yourself.

Subject: RE: BS: America commits war crimes.
From: GUEST,TIA
Date: 16 Nov 04 - 10:08 PM

Fellas - please name one, just one, liberal wimp terrorist sympathizer. Just one.

Last time I was railing at one of my kids for something they had done wrong, I didn't stop and fully excuse them when they pointed out that someone else had done something worse.

That's called the "But Billy spit in the salad bar" defense. You're too smart to fall for that aren't you?

Subject: RE: BS: America commits war crimes.
From: Peace
Date: 16 Nov 04 - 10:10 PM

"He pushed me back first!"

Subject: RE: BS: America commits war crimes.
From: GUEST,US
Date: 16 Nov 04 - 10:15 PM

"We ARE saying that we expect more from our side"

No. You are labeling our troops as terrorists.

Uncle Sam

Subject: RE: BS: America commits war crimes.
From: Bobert
Date: 16 Nov 04 - 10:29 PM

Yo, Dougie,

Since when does defending ones homeland get you the tag of "scum"?

In Falluga, the US took 1000 prisoners and of them, 985 of them were Itagis. Like where are all these foriegn fighters?

Scum?

Like what would you do if Iraq was the one with the big superior military with a lot of nukes and they were trying to take over yer town? Yeah, answer me that one, if you will...

Bobert

Subject: RE: BS: America commits war crimes.
From: Peace
Date: 16 Nov 04 - 10:34 PM

War itself, if not a crime, is a bloody shame. It's mostly about money and global positioning today. One has to ask how the US and Britain will recoup their economic losses in this war, and that begs some awkward questions, IMO.

However, there are enough folks on both sides to keep the war going, and that's a good thing I guess. Right? RIGHT?

Subject: RE: BS: America commits war crimes.
From: Greg F.
Date: 16 Nov 04 - 11:48 PM

McGrath, Ebbie, Bobert, Greg F. and all the other apologists for the terrorist sympathizers...

Whew! FLASHBACK! for a moment there I could have SWORN it was old Tailgunner Joe himself speaking....

but its only one of his disciples.

Subject: RE: BS: America commits war crimes.
From: GUEST,guest from NW
Date: 17 Nov 04 - 12:02 AM

"Yep - let's beat up America over one incident and ignore why America is there."

some people can't understand plain english. here it is in small words...

we (the"coalition") are supposed to be fighting a "war on terror"... we are supposed to be "the good guys", the "liberators"... we have rules of war and geneva conventions that we signed onto (we were not forced to sign them or tricked into signing them)... we need to observe those rules to maintain any sense of "moral high ground" EVEN WHEN THE OTHER SIDE DOESN'T... because if we don't, then that makes us JUST LIKE THEM and then the TERRORISTS WIN... are you guys with me so far?

we can only control our own actions...we can't make the "terrorists" have trials or fight "fair"...so when our guys break the rules they must be called to account EVEN THO THE OTHER SIDE DOES THINGS JUST AS BAD OR WORSE... because we're the great and powerful land that everyone wants to come to we have to do the RIGHT THING...otherwise we're ACTING JUST LIKE THE BAD GUYS and if we do that, we're not the good guys anymore we're just the guys with more guns.

"I was inferring that there is always a thread or two about how bad we Americans are - but where are the other threads?"

Let's see, how about...terrorism is bad...let's kill everybody in iraq...those who beheaded should be beheaded themselves...what threads are you proposing exactly? and why don't you start them if you feel there's a lacking? what we're talking about are things that are part of our sphere of influence that we might be able to affect. i don't think any islamic terrorists care what we think but other americans and free-thinking moral people might be interested and willing to discuss these issues without trying to end the discussion by calling names like "terrorist sympathisers" and the like.

"Where are the requests that the other side be held to international law..."

since the US refuses to be bound by the international court why would you think any one else should be?

Subject: RE: BS: America commits war crimes.
From: dianavan
Date: 17 Nov 04 - 01:05 AM

"As far as trials in Iraq go, I haven't heard that the court system is up and running."

EXACTLY! At this point, it seems the U.S. is judge and jury in Iraq. Who do you expect to try the terrorists for war crimes? Are they entitled to a jury of their peers?

As far as the U.S. goes, we can and do hold them accountable for their actions in Iraq and in any country they invade. We are their peers. We are entitled to speak out - in fact it is our duty!

I think we all should remember that during the American Revolution, the British complained bitterly that the U.S. soldiers did not play according to the rules of conventional warfare. They operated more like guerillas and snipers - they could have been called insurgents. It was the only way they could fight a force that was bigger and more organized. Why do you suppose they won their independence?

d

Subject: RE: BS: America commits war crimes.
From: Ooh-Aah2
Date: 17 Nov 04 - 04:48 AM

A very good point Dianavan. The yanks did fine when they hid in trenches, behind walls and swamps and up trees with their squirrel guns, and when the French navy helped them out; a shame that the 'freedom' they go on and on about didn't include native peoples and blacks, whom the wicked ol' British emancipated years earlier than they did, and without a major civil war; pretty first rate I would say.

With regard to the Falluja incident, I'm afraid my first reaction was 'who gives a shit?' This was because I had just heard that Margaret Hassan had been shot through the head in cold blood. I am passionately anti-war and despise Bush and his lot who bear the responsibility for it, so this reaction of mine shocked me and (to me)is indicative of the depths to which the world seems to be sliding.

Even more scary is that my cooler judgemnt is still 'who gives a shit'. I can't really work up real indignation about it. It says something for the absolute depravity of the insurgents when I can see the point of view of triggy-happy American macho men.

Subject: RE: BS: America commits war crimes.
From: Davetnova
Date: 17 Nov 04 - 05:29 AM

So throwing us Brits out of America was Good and Patriotic and Freedomfighting. Remind us again why America is in Iraq. Of course Weapons of Mass Destruction. No, No, No we didn't mean he had them we meant he'd like to have them and use them on us and anyway Saddam must be removed because he's killed so many Iraqis. (Does he still hold the high score in that game) and anyway the country is a total haven for foriegn terrorist, well it is now and anyway my Daddy should have done it and I WANT THAT OIL. I'm American therefore I AM RIGHT.

Subject: RE: BS: America commits war crimes.
From: Ooh-Aah2
Date: 17 Nov 04 - 06:32 AM

God I feel miserable. I don't WANT to hate as much as I did for an hour after I heard about Margaret Hassan, or view gratuitous shootings with indifference. My emotions just cancelled out my political ideas. Damn this bloody war!

Subject: RE: BS: America commits war crimes.
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 17 Nov 04 - 08:24 AM

One thing to remember about Margaret Hassan is that she was consistently and passionately opposed to sanctions on the things that ordinary Iraqis desperately needed, and opposed to the war, and believed that both would cause terrible harm to the people and the country she loved.

Whoever killed her it was an atrocity which will be remembered in the same way as the shooting of Edith Cavill in the Great War, and Nurs Cavill's words could have been spoken by Margaret Hassan: "Patriotism is not enough. I must have no hatred or bitterness for anyone."

We can be certain that the last thing Margaret Hassan would have wanted was for her murder to be used to encourage and support the very kind of violence and hatred that she spent her life trying to counter.

Subject: RE: BS: America commits war crimes.
From: Wolfgang
Date: 17 Nov 04 - 08:58 AM

The terrorists are scum of the earth and have to be eradicated, wounded or not.

Doug, if your heart doesn't tell you that it is wrong to shoot wounded and defenseless people wehatever they might have done before use the brain. It is not only a crime, it is also a mistake in that fight. It will make more enemies and less friends.

Uncle Sam, some (I, for instance) can wish that the USA win the war against terror and therefore object to brutalities of this type.

Too many people here who are partially blind or deaf: They only want to complain about one side's crimes. A US (British,...) crime would only be made the theme of a thread by the one part of the posters, a Muslim (insurgents, terrorists,...) only by another part.

Wolfgang

Subject: RE: BS: America commits war crimes.
From: Big Mick
Date: 17 Nov 04 - 09:30 AM

At last, the voice of reason. Doesn't surprise me that it is my old cyber friend Wolfgang.

As usual, I hear many voices that have never experienced the kind of gut wrenching terror that is pitched combat. They lack the ability to put themselves in the mind of a 20 year old terrified kid who is watching death all around him, and wonder if he will live long enough to try and recapture his or her lost youth.

It is disengenous to suggest that many here don't take every opportunity to castigate the US, but forget about mass gassings, beheadings of aid workers, weapons stores in holy places, and using civilian human shields. I don't care how you cut it, the simple facts are that these "freedom fighters" are trying to preserve a way of life that was oppressive and murderous in the same way that the Nazi's were.

As usual, I hear the voices of those that are so lost in partisanship that they can't see that we are creating more terrorists than we are killing. I hear voices that have forgotten the old American ideal of service with honor. These voices will alibi any behaviour on the pretext that these people do far worse. You have forgotten that one of the things that made America different in the world was our willingness to fight evil without becoming evil. No matter how you cut it, it is wrong, it is sinful, to shoot an unarmed, wounded combatant. And spare your talk about being a liberal apologists. There are a few, but very few, among you that can match your experiences with mine.

It is a time for reason. And intellectual honesty. I see that in Wolfgang. I see it in some of you.

Mick

Subject: RE: BS: America commits war crimes.
From: akenaton
Date: 17 Nov 04 - 01:25 PM

All this talk of "terrorist" "insurgent" "freedom fighter"

Of course the Iraqis who fight the invaders are "terrorists".
It is a major part of their strategy.
They are fighting against the worlds strongest military power, tanks aircraft and heavy artillery against rifles.

How did the Free French and the Italian Partizans fight against the Nazis?   With boxing gloves?

I read with amazement, a report in one of the newspapers where an American commander was berating the rebels for cowardice, "why dont they come out and fight fair".....The mind boggles

However debate is un-necessary, as in every other conflict the "terrorists almost always win....Ake

Subject: RE: BS: America commits war crimes.
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 17 Nov 04 - 01:59 PM

Fighting against invaders, that isn't terrorism, and nor is fighting against insurgents. It's just a very unpleasant type of warfare. But deliberately targetting civilians, and killing prisoners, that is terrorism.

The one spills over into the other, but there is a distinction. Terrorist acts such as those are war crimes, whoever does them. It would be perfectly appropriate for the people who do those things to be tried for it in a War Crimes tribunal. It would not be appropriate for the same to be done for people who had taken part in irregular warfare, without resorting to terrorism.

Subject: RE: BS: America commits war crimes.
From: akenaton
Date: 17 Nov 04 - 02:10 PM

McGrath its all a matter of definition...
Would the destruction of civilian areas, as in Fallujah,or the incendiary bombing of Dresden and Cologne be defined as "terrorism"..Ake

Subject: RE: BS: America commits war crimes.
From: Peace
Date: 17 Nov 04 - 03:00 PM

The purpose of bombing is two-fold:

1) Destroy targets
2) Break the will of the people to continue fighting

It is not of and by itself terrorism, although terror may result from the bombing. It is war. War. War.

Subject: RE: BS: America commits war crimes.
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 17 Nov 04 - 03:10 PM

I'd say that they should be, akenaton. They are, on the face of, it war crimes. But just because the perpetrators will probably get away with it, as victors in war normally do, does not mean that actions such as the murder of Margaret Hassan was in any sense a justifiable act of resistance to an invasion.

Subject: RE: BS: America commits war crimes.
From: Nerd
Date: 17 Nov 04 - 04:41 PM

Big Mick, I hear you. I cannot match your experience, but I was attempting to acknowledge the lad's own situation when I pointed out that extenuating circumstances applied (he was scared shitless after having been shot the previous day) and that the Law of war is not a perfect instrument to deal with situatuions like an urban insurgency. As i said, I suspect if he is found to have acted wrongfully he will be treated leniently.

Beardedbruce:

"Nationals of a State which is not bound by the Convention are not protected by it. Nationals of a neutral State who find themselves in the territory of a belligerent State, and nationals of a co-belligerent State, shall not be regarded as protected persons while the State of which they are nationals has normal diplomatic representation in the State in whose hands they are."

Both the US and Iraq are parties to the Geneva Conventions. So I'm not sure why you quoted this passage and then accused people of not knowing what they are talking about. There are passages of the conventions that would make more sense for you to quote. In specific, the US is not in fact at war with Iraq; the militia members are not representing the Iraqi state, though they are Iraqi nationals. So there is some question as to whether the Geneva conventions are relevant; while the US as a state is at war, Iraq as a state is not.

But one could argue that the current "government" of Iraq is merely a puppet regime established by the US, and the US HAS been occupying Iraq since it attacked the state of Iraq under Hussein, so is this not the same war? Until there are elections, the Iraqi state as far as the conventions are concerned would have to be the state that was party to the conventions. These wounded Iraqis are nationals of that state and thus would count as protected people under the conventions.

Subject: RE: BS: America commits war crimes.
From: Wolfgang
Date: 17 Nov 04 - 04:41 PM

Of course the Iraqis who fight the invaders are "terrorists". It is a major part of their strategy. (Ake)

I agree for the insurgents who are Iraqis and who actually fight the invaders. I have some kind of respect for them.

However, (1) there are a couple of non-Iraqis involved with a completely different agenda and (2) all too often they (including Iraqis now) do not fight against the invaders but target deliberately civilians and other Iraqis. I have no respect for them.

Deliberately targetting civilians, and killing prisoners, that is terrorism sounds like a good working definition to me.

If I take that definition Americans are not without blame, but most of the blame in my eyes rests with the insurgents.

Wolfgang

Subject: RE: BS: America commits war crimes.
From: akenaton
Date: 17 Nov 04 - 04:43 PM

Reading between the lines on the murder of Mrs Hassan,it would appear that her death is the responsibility of criminals seeking to "sell" her on to "insurgent" groups.
When al Zarqawi called for Mrs Hassan to be freed, the group holding her obviously decided to kill her and go into hiding.

al zarqawi wants to terrorise foreign workers and governments in an attempt to hinder the Wests bid to set up a puppet government and phony democracy.
He obviously realised that to kill someone who was loved by ordinary Iraqis would be counter productive.

So I dont think the unfortunate death of Mrs Hassan could be called terrorism in the accepted sense..


Brucie ,hope all is well with you....
Would not an "attempt to break the will of the people to continue fighting" be construed as terrorism,if it involved slaughter of civilians and destruction of their homes.

Subject: RE: BS: America commits war crimes.
From: DougR
Date: 17 Nov 04 - 04:51 PM

I suspect none of us, even those of you who have experienced similar circumstances, can put ourselves in the boots of the young man who fired the shot. I expect, under those circumstances, each situation is different.

This enemy does not fight by the same rules, however, that those of you who are so critical of the young Marine, expect from the coalition forces. Yes, Mick, it is well and good to lecture us "do not knows because we haven't been there" guys, but I hazard a guess that even you couldn't predict what you would do under similar circumstances. This is an enemy that plants booby traps on the dead and wounded. Perhaps that young Marine thought the wounded man was a threat ...had a grenade or other type weapon hidden from view.

I think we have to wait until we know the facts. The Marines will not whitewash the incident, I'm sure. The press won't allow that. If the young man is in the wrong, he should be punished. However, the circumstances of the situation must be taken into account.

DougR

Subject: RE: BS: America commits war crimes.
From: akenaton
Date: 17 Nov 04 - 04:57 PM

Wolfgang....I dont suppose Mr al Zarqawi cares whether you or I "respect" him, and he certainly does not respect Western society or any of us who live by its rules.
People like Zarqawi, Stalin, Churchill,Bush, firmly believe that the "end justifies the means"...Ake

Subject: RE: BS: America commits war crimes.
From: DougR
Date: 17 Nov 04 - 05:02 PM

One more thing:why do those so quick to condem this young man fail to rise similarly in anger at the terrorists who lop of the heads of their captives? Instead, when the terrorists behead someone they have kidnapped, your anger is turned on the U. S. and the coalition partners for invading Iraq! And they are NOT insurgents over there in Iraq, they are Muslim terrorists from all over the Muslim world. If it was an insurgency, all of the forces fighting the coalition forces would be Iraqis. They are not. My dictionary defines a insurgent as:"Rising in nonbelligerent revolt against civil authority or a government in power." These guys aren't insurgents, they are Terrorists! Anyone who thinks they are not belliberent is just not tuned in.
DougR

Subject: RE: BS: America commits war crimes.
From: akenaton
Date: 17 Nov 04 - 05:12 PM

Doug...You are so naive.
Of course the soldier who was filmed murdering the Iraqi will be diciplined.   But his main crime will be in getting caught.
Im sure when the cameras were safely switched off there would be many Iraqi fighters put"out of their misery",whether they were a threat or not.
I have spoken to veterans of Korea who said that "if it moved they killed it" getting medical assistance for the enemy was out of the question.

As Brucie said ,the real monster is War itself ......and who started the War ..Ake

Subject: RE: BS: America commits war crimes.
From: Big Mick
Date: 17 Nov 04 - 06:21 PM

First off, Doug, I do know how I would act because I have been in a situation so close as to be scary. Second, of course every case is different, as is every persons response, and that was my point. I don't give a shit if you don't like to be from the standpoint of "those who haven't had the experience". It happens to be a fact, as any combat vet can tell you.

Finally, while I understand how this happens, I must tell you that unless something comes out in the investigation that mitigates what the video seems to show, there is no excuse for the killing. I have more empathy for this young man than one could ever imagine. But barring something that is not evident, this was not a "good kill".

Mick