BS: Christmas? A rant

Subject: BS: Christmas? A rant
From: John on the Sunset Coast
Date: 26 Nov 09 - 05:31 PM

I have just finished looking at adverts from eighteen (18) different retailers for sales beginning tomorrow. Not even one of these refers in any way to Christmas. Well, a few do show snow flakes or baubles in the background, but the few times the C word shows up it is to advertise a 'Christmas tree'.

I have heard that one particular clothing store will put up no Christmas decorations at all. True? I don't know. The last several years, Disney's holiday jingle to the tune of "Down the Chimney" replaced 'Saint Nick' in the lyric with 'Santa Nick', as if we don't know what Santa means.

Very few folks who decorate their house use any sort of religious symbols. Many just have a string of white light to look like icicles. Too bad; the sentiment was beautiful.

My family doesn't personally celebrate Christmas, although we do send 'Christmas cards' to folks we know who do celebrate.

So the rant is--What's the point of giving gifts in December if there is no underlying meaning to them anymore? Why not give gifts in August when nothing much else is going on? Or on my birthday?--That would be swell.

Subject: RE: BS: Christmas? A rant
From: Little Hawk
Date: 26 Nov 09 - 05:42 PM

If you don't watch television and basically just don't worry about all the bla-bla on there, it's not much of a problem. Even better if you don't listen to the radio either. That's what I find. As for all the printed advertising that lands in my mailbox, I just drop it in the recycling bin on the way back to the door and never read any of it.

And if you don't want to give gifts...don't. Why get stressed out over something you can just as easily ignore by focusing on other things instead?

Subject: RE: BS: Christmas? A rant
From: Joe Offer
Date: 26 Nov 09 - 05:47 PM

Well, the Conventional Wisdom is that the term "Christmas" is offensive to at least some people nowadays, so it might be better for merchants to avoid the risk of offending a customer and use a secularized term like "holidays." In some circumstances, especially in stores and other businesses, I agree.

But I work as a volunteer at a women's center that is operated by two nuns (our volunteers and clients come from a wide variety of belief groups). When I took over operation of the Women's Center Website, I found a page that talked about our Christmas Store - except that the page very carefully used the word "holiday" and never once made mention of "Christmas." One of the first changes I made to the Website was to substitute the word "Christmas" for most of the times "holiday" was used. To me, it seemed silly to think that nuns shouldn't be allowed to be associated with the word "Christmas." Oh, and the nuns approved of the changes I made, even though I didn't ask for permission first.

-Joe-

Subject: RE: BS: Christmas? A rant
From: Little Hawk
Date: 26 Nov 09 - 06:01 PM

Good for you, Joe. ;-)

I think that people who are so flipping culturally "sensitive" that the word "Christmas" offends them should get to spend a month or two living at survival level in a Somali refugee camp or something. They would come back with a much-adjusted tolerance level and find themselves offended by not nearly as many things as before they took that little refresher course in reality.

Subject: RE: BS: Christmas? A rant
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 26 Nov 09 - 06:02 PM

Basic life rule is, if you know what you are doing, and it needs doing, don't ask permission. Doesn't always apply, but more often than not it's the right way to go.

Subject: RE: BS: Christmas? A rant
From: Alice
Date: 26 Nov 09 - 06:05 PM

I'm with Joe on this. Christmas is Christmas and it is weird that people try to pretend it is not Christmas or that it should be called something else.

Subject: RE: BS: Christmas? A rant
From: artbrooks
Date: 26 Nov 09 - 06:12 PM

Well, I can't honestly say that I pay much attention to advertising, at this time of year or any other, or listen to the words of whatever piped-in "music" is available in the mall. Come to think of it, I avoid the mall.

I do think that this ongoing trend...assuming that this should be a matter of concern at all...really means that we have all come full circle. After all, the early Christians stole the solstice holiday (the time that the sun returned), which was celebrated in the frozen lands of Northern Europe with feasting, gift giving and merry-making, and used it to celebrate the birth of their Christ instead. {Most likely Rabbi Yeshua ben Yosef of Nazaret was born sometime in December or January, and I suppose December 25th is as good a guess as any.}

Going back to an earlier form of celebration seems fine to me - and there is no reason at all that the Christians, the Jews, the Wiccans, the African-Americans or anyone else shouldn't be able to celebrate it in their own way.

Subject: RE: BS: Christmas? A rant
From: Lizzie Cornish 1
Date: 26 Nov 09 - 06:14 PM

Yup, bring back CHRISTmas....and those who don't like it can go shove their intolerant backsides in the snow...

Subject: RE: BS: Christmas? A rant
From: pdq
Date: 26 Nov 09 - 06:15 PM

If the Muslims will agree to ignore Christmas, I will solemnly swear to pay no attention to Ramadan.

Sounds fair, eh?

Subject: RE: BS: Christmas? A rant
From: Little Hawk
Date: 26 Nov 09 - 06:26 PM

Exactly, pdq. I mean, heck, I don't have any problem ignoring Chanukah or Purim, and they don't bother me at all, so why should a Jew be bothered by Christmas when he can just ignore it?

Just focus on what works for you. I've never been to a Bar Mitzvah and I didn't even notice what I missed. Nor have I ever been baptized. And I haven't been to Mecca. Yet...somehow I feel reasonably fulfilled in any case.

Subject: RE: BS: Christmas? A rant
From: GUEST,Guest Emma B
Date: 26 Nov 09 - 06:33 PM

I am not a christian but I DO celebrate the winter solstice in much the same way as artbrooks described with feasting, gift giving and merry-making.

Have you heard about another feature of the season Lizzie - known as good will?
Or do you prefer that those who don't celebrate in one particular religion (i.e. yours!) should all 'go shove their intolerant backsides in the snow... '


Hanukkah (Hanukah / Hanuka / Chanukah)
is a festival of lights that is symbolized by the candelabrum known as a menorah. Hanukkah celebrates a lighting miracle when one night's worth of oil lit candles for 8 days.

Special foods and gift-giving are also a part of Hanukkah

Sankranti:
The Hindu Sankranti historically takes place on the Solstice, although the date is January 14, which gives evidence to how much time has elapsed since it started. It is believed that people who die on this day end the reincarnation cycle, for which reason it is very lucky.

Gifts are exchanged, sweets and other special food are consumed

Subject: RE: BS: Christmas? A rant
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 26 Nov 09 - 06:38 PM

Jesus Christ is reverenced by Muslims as a prophet, second only to Muhammed. It's never Muslims or Jews or Hindus or Buddhists who object to Christmas being called Christmas, and publicly celebrated.

And I may not keep Ramadan, with all that fasting, but I'm happy to join Muslims in any celebration of Eid. Or Hindus celebrating Diwali, or Jews with Hanukah, or what have you.

The more holidays and celebrations the better - and given their rightful names, to celebrate our diversity.

Subject: RE: BS: Christmas? A rant
From: Little Hawk
Date: 26 Nov 09 - 06:46 PM

Well said, McGrath. I have found most of the Muslims I know in Canada to be very hospitable, reliable, and kind people, and they all celebrate Christmas as far as I know.

Subject: RE: BS: Christmas? A rant
From: Dave MacKenzie
Date: 26 Nov 09 - 06:58 PM

Growing up in Scotland, we didn't really celebrate Christmas. The main winter festival was New Year, and there was always at least one report of a Headmaster (usually a Seceder) refusing to let his school celebrate a pagan festival. We had a small family party with presents, rather like a glorified Sunday, though the vast majority of churches were closed.

Santa Claus, after all, owes more to Odin than to St Nicholas (who only gave presents to the poor), and the Christmas tree is a relic of pagan Germanic human sacrifices.

As to referring to it as "holiday", isn't this just "Holy Day" referring to a Christian religious festival?

Subject: RE: BS: Christmas? A rant
From: gnomad
Date: 26 Nov 09 - 07:05 PM

If one cannot call Christmas by that name what is its point anyway? And how is holiday (Holy day) any better for those supposedly offended?

I ask these questions as a non-believer who is not offended. The feast that people are observing needs its name, be it Christmas, Yom Kippur, or the anniversary of Kermit's first panic attack. Let folk celebrate whatever event(s) they wish, in the manner of their choosing, subject to normal behavioural bounds.

I have not encountered anyone professing a non-Christian religion who voiced an objection to the term Christmas. In my experience such objections generally come from militant atheists, or from a few nominal Christians who lack the courage of their convictions.

Mind you, I would happily see the event confined to the twelve days, but that is a matter of taste, and of boredom threshold.

Subject: RE: BS: Christmas? A rant
From: Alice
Date: 26 Nov 09 - 07:07 PM

Holiday has become a generic term, which can apply to government holidays, too, like 4th of July.

Subject: RE: BS: Christmas? A rant
From: Dave MacKenzie
Date: 26 Nov 09 - 07:11 PM

"In my experience such objections generally come from militant atheists, or from a few nominal Christians who lack the courage of their convictions."

or from Evangelical Christians who object to Christs's name being applied to a pagan festival!

Subject: RE: BS: Christmas? A rant
From: Acorn4
Date: 26 Nov 09 - 07:11 PM

Come Back, Ebenezer

1.The first Nowell that the angels did say
Was a Noel Edmonds Special upon Christmas Day
All hail to the brain dead forget silent night
Fill up every channel with wall to wall sh**e

2.Away in a manger, no crib for a bed,
They've barcoded Jesus stuck a paper hat on his head
Like cattle we're seething let's make the tills ring,
With big mouths and big bums and obnoxious offspring

Chorus:-

Come back, Ebenezer, when all's said and done,
Put it down to your dry sense of humour
Wheel your trolley to the checkout,
Stick on a false grin
And become a festive consumer.

3.Oh come all ye faithful, oh come ye three kings
Bear the gift of Bing Crosby to make us all cringe
Let's all stuff our faces, and loudly get pissed
Unto us is born Johnny Mathis to drive us all round the twist.

4.Lets deck all the halls with boughs of holly
Fill up the bars with every rentagob wally
It certainly would have advanced peace on earth
If someone had strangled Cliff Richard at birth.

Come back, Ebenezer, when all's said and done,
Put it down to your dry sense of humour
Wheel your trolley to the checkout,
Stick on a false grin
And become a festive consumer.

5.Hark the Herald Angels jingle and wassail
Here's a health to the credit card, to Cliff's wallet all hail
And just for a parting gift to all mankind
That f***ing record by Slade for the 3 millionth time

Come back, Ebenezer, when all's said and done,
Put it down to your dry sense of humour
Wheel your trolley to the checkout,
Stick on a false grin
And become a festive consumer.

Subject: RE: BS: Christmas? A rant
From: Alice
Date: 26 Nov 09 - 07:14 PM

Stan Freberg, Green Chri$tma$

Subject: RE: BS: Christmas? A rant
From: Jeri
Date: 26 Nov 09 - 07:33 PM

",,,bring back CHRISTmas....and those who don't like it can go shove their intolerant backsides in the snow" -- the irony was not lost on me, Lizzie. Thanks for pointing out that there's no set form for intolerance.

I was raised Christian and I'm a non-believer these days, although you'd need a checklist with thousands of yes or no answers to determine what I do or don't believe in. I think it's possible that everyone who says they're Christian might need a hundred or so fewer questions.

Christmas is, for me, a time when loved ones get together and just try to be a little bit better. It's white and red and green. It smells like spruce and pine, cinnamon and cloves, roasting turkey, sage and thyme. It's tinsel and ornaments and lights and packages wrapped up in brightly colored paper. It's visiting with friends and neighbors. I know what it feels like to celebrate the religion, and I know how it feels to just celebrate the time of year. I think that whatever you celebrate is fine, but best if love and generosity are part of it.

The stores are just cashing in on the tradition. Buy stuff or ignore the sales--they don't force people to believe anything--they don't even force anyone to buy their wares. Businesses can never control what's in people's hearts, and I find no reason to think they should be trying to.

Subject: RE: BS: Christmas? A rant
From: pdq
Date: 26 Nov 09 - 07:49 PM

If you want to read more stuff by people who want to ban Christmas, check out these folks...

                                                            American Humanist Association

Subject: RE: BS: Christmas? A rant
From: Leadfingers
Date: 26 Nov 09 - 08:09 PM

In UK . the people who create problems for anyone trying to celebrate Christmas seem to be the Over Sensitive Politically Sensitive Pillocks who are SO concerned about upsetting all those other people who frankly dont give a S**t about what WE do .
But PLEASE dont start the celebrations at least until the Start of Advent !

Subject: RE: BS: Christmas? A rant
From: Ruth Archer
Date: 26 Nov 09 - 08:19 PM

I'm a humanist. I'm good with Christmas.

But Emma's points are spot on. Giok asks why we give gifts and have a knees-up in the winter if it's no longer anything to do with Christ.

Well, as most folkies know, Christmas was grafted onto much older, midwinter celebrations. Lots of religions have them. I'm not a Christian, but neither am I a pagan - I still like to have a bit of a knees-up at the darkest time of the year, which is really what it was all about in the first place, right? Banishing the cold and the darkness with a bit of festivity? I mean, everyone knows Jesus wasn't actually born on the 25th of December, and it was in the desert and everything. Not a lot to really make it bear any resemblance to the midwinter revelry we know today - but then again, the midwinter revelry came first anyway. I genuinely love carols like "In the Bleak Midwinter" precisely because they graft a particular kind of Englishness onto this utterly foreign experience. Kinda like Holman Hunt's very English-looking Jesus in The Light of the World.

I remember at my Convent school one of the priests once told us that Easter is the most important holiday in the Christian calendar, not Christmas, and if we revered Christmas over Easter we were all heathen blasphemers who were going to hell in a handcart. Did that make us love Easter any more? Nope. But, you know, there wasn't midnight mass at Easter. Or carolling, or any of the other good stuff, except swanning around on the boardwalk in a big hat. It was a bit rubbish in comparison, really. Maybe there's simply something a bit deeper in us that longs to celebrate at this time of year.

I'm happy to call it Christmas, because it's traditional ;). I'm not that bothered about contemplating Christ's birth, but I love each and every other tradition that goes along with it. So yes, I'll be hauling my agnostic arse down to our 1000 year old village church on Christmas eve. The church will be lit with candles, and the children in the village will sing, and I'll probably get roped into serving mulled wine and mince pies like last year. And then we'll go to the pub on the village green, and I will share a drink and a laugh with my neighbours around the fire.

That's my Christmas - totally traditional, and totally godless. And anyone who doesn't like it is equally welcome to cool their bums in a snowdrift. :)

Subject: RE: BS: Christmas? A rant
From: Ruth Archer
Date: 26 Nov 09 - 08:20 PM

Sorry, it wan't Giok who asked why we bother, it was the OP, John on the Sunset Coast.

Subject: RE: BS: Christmas? A rant
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 26 Nov 09 - 08:28 PM

"...and it was in the desert and everything. Not a lot to really make it bear any resemblance to the midwinter..."

Not that there's anything about it in the Gospel narratives - but in fact it does snow in the Holy Land. Here is a picture of a snowy Bethlehem.

Subject: RE: BS: Christmas? A rant
From: John on the Sunset Coast
Date: 26 Nov 09 - 08:39 PM

Man, Little Hawk, you completely missed the gist of my opening post.

I'm ranting because merchants peddle merchandise as if there is a special reason when it has becomes less and less so. Most people give gifts in December for reasons that are longer seasonally important. Those December gifts would have just as much or as little meaning, if given at any other time.

I know there are many Christians who celebrate the Nativity, giving gifts in honor of the holiday, not just giving lip service to it. I'm not railing against them. My admiration for them is profound.

I don't celebrate Christmas because I am not a Christian. I'm not offended by Christmas. I am offended by those who are offended by an overt celebration of Christmas as a religious holiday!

Not only that, am I not offended by the public or private celebration of any religion's holidays; I am joyed to see the traditions and the trappings that go with them.

Finally Hawk, you choose the things that tick you off and I'll choose my battles; at this time, this ticks me off.

Subject: RE: BS: Christmas? A rant
From: katlaughing
Date: 26 Nov 09 - 08:58 PM

Well said, Jeri and Ruth. Thanks.

Subject: RE: BS: Christmas? A rant
From: Alice
Date: 26 Nov 09 - 09:16 PM

Like the saying "live and let live",

... celebrate and let celebrate!

Subject: RE: BS: Christmas? A rant
From: Sandra in Sydney
Date: 27 Nov 09 - 01:40 AM

we also have the excessive commercialism (buy our expensive stuff to show them you love them!, overfeed them all this food to show you love them!, go into debt, with no interest for lots of months, to show you love them!) & the PC mob saying don't use the word 'Christmas' cos it will offend members of other religions, like Muslims, Jews, Hindus, & the representatives of these other religions saying we're not offended & the PC folks saying, yes you are, we know best!

sandra

Subject: RE: BS: Christmas? A rant
From: Little Hawk
Date: 27 Nov 09 - 01:51 AM

I thought, John, that the gist of your opening post was primarily that you are bugged by all the commercialism and selling at Christmas, not by the holiday itself. That barrage of commercialism bugs me too, and I avoid it mainly by just not tuning in to the broadcast media.

Then I got talking about some other stuff, cos one thing leads to another. ;-)

Fewer things "bug" me as time goes by, because I don't tend to dwell much on things that bug me...although there are some political issues I remain quite interested in.

Subject: RE: BS: Christmas? A rant
From: AllisonA(Animaterra)
Date: 27 Nov 09 - 08:31 AM

Amen, Jeri and Ruth!

As for me, I play the music, sing the songs, light the lights, bring in the greens, set out the lovely carved-wood nativity scene from the southern Appalachians, and celebrate as my good friend Alouette wrote in a round that came to her in a flash one Solstice:

"Candles keep us from the dark, and fire from the cold,
Good friends, good food, and music are light for the soul."
(can't figure out how or where to upload an mp3 of this wonderful song, but pm me and I'll email it!)


Ads? Crass commercialism? I just ignore them, as I do the rest of the year.

Allison



(It helps that we own neither a tv nor a radio!)

Subject: RE: BS: Christmas? A rant
From: Bryn Pugh
Date: 27 Nov 09 - 10:05 AM

I don't mind you celebrating christmas, provided you don't mind me and mine celebrating Yule.

This is very much family orientated - we shall be fortunate to have four generations round the festive table on December 21st.

There are presents ; there is thanksgiving for family, and praise to the gods that we have survived another year.

There is fire, and candles - artificial light is a no-no, except for those which are called "fairy lights" on Odin's tree.

We get up with the Sun, and go to bed with the Sun, over this sacred time.

There is much love, great food (but not gluttony, which is well discouraged) ; drink for those who want it; and, most important, at midnight on the 20th, cakes and ale are taken to a convenient oak tree, in praise and thanksgiving to the
Great Mother and the All Father.

On the 'day' of the 21st we go to neighbours and bring cakes and ale for sharing.

Sound familiar ?

Subject: RE: BS: Christmas? A rant
From: Jack Blandiver
Date: 27 Nov 09 - 10:23 AM

We get up with the Sun, and go to bed with the Sun, over this sacred time.

Hardly worth getting up, Bryn - especially up in these latitudes! Solstice Point in the UK this year is 17.47, on the 21st - by which time you'll be safely tucked up in bed!

As a SAD suffering atheist I'm quite happy to celebrate the Solstice, Christmas, Xmas, Hanaka, Winterval, Festivus (for the Rest of Us), or whatever other nonsense humans have come up with over the years to cope with the savage realities of winter. Shame hibernation wasn't one of them...

Subject: RE: BS: Christmas? A rant
From: John on the Sunset Coast
Date: 27 Nov 09 - 10:44 AM

Sorry, Hawk...my bad , as they say.

Subject: RE: BS: Christmas? A rant
From: Folkiedave
Date: 27 Nov 09 - 01:33 PM

cos it will offend members of other religions, like Muslims, Jews, Hindus, & the representatives of these other religions saying we're not offended & the PC folks saying, yes you are, we know best!

Sums it up nicely.

The Mail and the Express will be running "Carols Banned" or "Winterland" stories soon (if they haven't already started).

Try putting "Council Bans Christmas" into Google.

You get loads of hits, all of which turn out to be horlicks once investigated. But by then Nick Griffin and his mates have quoted them and so they go around and around.

Personally I'm out at an Eid party tonight. The problem is a shortage of taxis.

Subject: RE: BS: Christmas? A rant
From: DougR
Date: 27 Nov 09 - 01:40 PM

L.H.: don't watch TV? Don't listen to radio? Does that account for the fact that in your posts you always appear so well informed? :>)

DougR

Subject: RE: BS: Christmas? A rant
From: Joe Offer
Date: 27 Nov 09 - 02:08 PM

Well, both extremes make me nervous - those who want to "put Christ in Christmas" and shove it down your throat; and those who think the word is offensive and must be avoided.

But hey, I love Christmas, or whatever winter holiday you want to celebrate with me. In the Northern Hemisphere, December is a pretty dreary month, with grey skies and dead vegetation. The Christmas traditions and gift-giving and music do a lot to brighten up a dreary season. Who'd want to bother with decorations and gift-giving in August, when you can go hiking and swimming and camping? Who wants to gather in a home in July, when you can be outside enjoying the evening sunlight?

I made a foray out last night (Thursday) to take advantage on a one-day sale on power tools. They were sold out. What a drag. I think I'll stay home on Black Friday and enjoy the fireplace and my family and the leftovers.

-Joe-

Subject: RE: BS: Christmas? A rant
From: Q (Frank Staplin)
Date: 27 Nov 09 - 02:28 PM

Yes, an excellent time for a family gathering in the drear of winter. No other excuse needed.

Subject: RE: BS: Christmas? A rant
From: GUEST,Steamin' Willie
Date: 27 Nov 09 - 02:54 PM

What's all this about deeper meaning???

Xmas was a pagan / Roman festival hijacked so the proselytising Christians could make it easier to convert them.

Xmas is, like anything else, what you make it. I am not a Christian, in fact I am not a member of any superstition. So I do get a bit angry when Christians try claiming you cannot enjoy it as much if you miss out the little baby jesus...

I enjoy it by eating, drinking, laughing, seeing my lads, watching the football.....

That IS Xmas. Or at least it is my Xmas. If yours is different, then good luck. Just don't try enforcing yours onto mine.

I keep looking for those Santa on a cross figures that were popular a few years ago. Keep the god botherers from the door. (And some of her happy clappy relatives for that matter.)

Subject: RE: BS: Christmas? A rant
From: Lizzie Cornish 1
Date: 27 Nov 09 - 03:10 PM

"Have you heard about another feature of the season Lizzie - known as good will?
Or do you prefer that those who don't celebrate in one particular religion (i.e. yours!) should all 'go shove their intolerant backsides in the snow... '"


yup, I sure have heard of Goodwill, Emma. Have you though?

I'm not talking about other religions here....heck, *I* don't have a religion...but I respect people who DO. And if they want cards with Jesus, Mary and Joseph on, then that's just fine by me. Likewise Nativity plays, the three wise kings, the bible, or nurses praying for their patients, for nothing but kind and loving reasons.

What I cannot abide is people who are constantly trying to put Christianity down, along with all of those who believe in it. We see it on here over and again, but we also know that those very same people who choose to villify Christianity wouldn't DARE to do the same thing with the Jewish or Muslim religion, or any other...

So, if someone would please explain to me why Christianity has been singled out in this way, I'm very ready to listen.

Until I hear a decent explanation, I'll continue to say that those sort of people should go show their intolerant backsides into the snow, because they should either be on here villifying ALL religions, or....NONE at all.

You cannot, in my book, single out Christianity for preferential hate treatement.

And the way that people are almost afraid to admit to being Christian these days says an awful lot, because they've been bullied and laughed at to the point where they'd rather not even admit to their beliefs..and that is wrong.

They bullying culture that has surrounded Christianity for two decades or more has been very wrong, imo...and I also believe that is part of the reason why the Christian Celebration has been deliberately dumbed down and become little more, for the masses, than just another excuse to get paralytic and spend loadsa money.

I loathe the way Christmas has become...so I thought I'd make a stand and tell folks...that's all.

Peace and Goodwill to all religions...and to all non-religious people too who have good souls and kindness in their heart.

The spiteful ones....? Well, there's a snow drift over there...you know what to do...

:0)

Subject: RE: BS: Christmas? A rant
From: Stringsinger
Date: 27 Nov 09 - 03:26 PM

Happy Mithras. The Persian god was said to be born on Dec. 25.

For the others, Happy Myth-ras.

The christmas tree lights are the symbol of burning trees to bring back the sun.
Time was they burnt the trees on the Winter Solstice, and lo and behold, the sun came back. The days got longer and sunnier.

The picture we have of Santa was painted by a guy who worked for Coca Cola. The Company used it in their ads. (I think Santa gained weight drinking Coke. He was skinnier as European Saint Nicholas).

Did Rudolph get his shiny nose from drinking too much spiked egg nog? Or coke?

Gift giving is a wonderful idea. As was posted above why does it just have to be on Christmas? We could give the wonderful gift of bringing the troops home from Afghanistan, Iraq and Pakistan but let's not carry this christmas tradition too far. :)

Buy lots of gifts this season and make Wall Street happy.

I think seriously that christmas is a fun holiday if you make it that way. Any excuse for having fun includes any holiday.

Christmas carols are pretty whether you believe in their religious message or not.
I sing 'em joyfully and don't believe a thing they say. Just like folk music texts.

Subject: RE: BS: Christmas? A rant
From: GUEST,Steamin' Willie
Date: 27 Nov 09 - 03:32 PM

Lizzie Cornish asks why Christianity is singled out and would anybody have a pop at Islam.

1. In The UK, we have a democracy, although we also have Bishops in The House of Lords, so not a democracy at all. As Christians can affect my life, I have every right to point out the emperor has no clothes, (or beard to be precise.)

2. It is always Christians, not any other superstition knocking on my door, trying to influence politics etc.

If a muslim had a pop at me in terms of faith, I would certainly have a pop back. Perhaps the reason christian are singled out, it is because it is christians who go out of their way to interfere with my life.

I was in Dubai last year during Ramadan. The principle was that as a non muslim, I was not expected to fast, that would be silly according to the government there. Just don't drink in front of somebody who is fasting, thats all. Compare that to trying to get served in B&Q after 4..00pm on a Sunday. Ask the store, they would like to be open the same as any other day, and there are staff willing to work too. If christians want to stay at home with a leaky tap, get on with it.

For the record, islam is a superstition same as any other. It just hasn't tried interfering in my life yet. Terrorists hijacking a religion is not the same thing, before somebody starts pointing things out. I was at Kings Cross when the bombs went off, and yes, I was, in a small way, interfered with, but by terrorists, not a religion.

As some philosopher once said, religion is like a swimming baths. All the noise comes from the shallow end.

Jesus saves! Darwin scores on the rebound!

Subject: RE: BS: Christmas? A rant
From: Lizzie Cornish 1
Date: 27 Nov 09 - 03:41 PM

But...didn't Darwin have a downer on God, after his daughter died so young?

Just being Devil's Advocate here..


"As some philosopher once said, religion is like a swimming baths. All the noise comes from the shallow end."

So, are you saying that someone like Mother Theresa of Calcutta is 'shallow' then?

Subject: RE: BS: Christmas? A rant
From: pdq
Date: 27 Nov 09 - 03:42 PM

The modern image of Santa Claus as a jolly man with a red suit and white beard came from cartoonist Thomas Nast, about 1862.

He also gave us the Democrat donkey and the Republican elephant.

His cartoons of Boss Tweed were so damaging to the corrupt politician that they were the sourrce for the current word "nasty".

Subject: RE: BS: Christmas? A rant
From: GUEST,Steamin' WIllie
Date: 27 Nov 09 - 04:05 PM

Ah well you see...

Darwin did have issues as everything he worked out went against his upbringing and (some would say) brainwashing conditioning. He certainly had more guts than me. My wife's family are superstitious but I wouldn't dream of setting out to offend them, even though they offend me by getting all annoyed when we don't join them in church when we visit.

His downer on god was, I suppose, easier once he realised the bible wasn't as it were, gospel.

Mother Teresa wasn't a noisy one in terms of religion, she was noisy in terms of getting a better deal for the young of Calcutta. The fact her motivation came from her faith is neither here nor there. My motivation for first going to a folk club was that my older brother used to go to them when I was a kid and I listened to Ewan McColl etc on records because as a 9 year old, you copy your older brother. Once I was 16, I got curious and went to one. Who else has that exact motivation? We all have different ones. Her motivation for her work was religion, my motivation for altruism is whatever it is. Certainly not superstition.

I do take your point that live and let live is important and it does seem christians are getting picked on, but stand back and think about it, the noisy shallow end makes the general noise from the swimming baths unbearable.

I do live and let live, and try to keep my comments general, not personal. The catholic priest who told me (in a debate I was part of in a town hall once) that I will hopefully burn in hell makes my point. It was the word hopefully I took most issue with. The rest was fantasy but the hope was stupid hypocrisy.

Not trying to derail the thread, but just a part of why I feel Xmas is whatever your tradition is, not a fairy story that has been made out to be true, (unless you want it to be.) If non christian cards sell better than christian ones, that;s business for you, and mammon is something that is worshipped far more than this jesus fellow, and both forms of idolatry lead ultimately to sadness and disappointment.

Subject: RE: BS: Christmas? A rant
From: jacqui.c
Date: 27 Nov 09 - 04:33 PM

Well said Jeri and Ruth.

I am not a Christian but I do enjoy the togetherness of Christmas and the New Year, spending time with those I love and just enjoying the season. I would agree that this is a good time, in the Northern Hemisphere at least, for a festival of some sort, a view obviously shared by the Ancients in celebrating the Winter Solstice.

I hate all the commercialism that goes on - adverts suggesting that the only good present is a bauble worth thousands of pounds or a new car. All the push to persuade us to buy more food than we can eat over such a short period and that, if we don't indulge in this excess, we are letting our families (and big business) down.

Subject: RE: BS: Christmas? A rant
From: Little Hawk
Date: 27 Nov 09 - 05:03 PM

Doug, you rascal! ;-) No, I don't listen to the TV or commercial radio stations, but I keep myself well-informed by reading Canada's best known newspapers (The Globe and Mail and the Toronto Star), by reading many books, and by researching news and current events on the Internet every day.

That way I can pretty much avoid the frantic corporate advertising that I would have foisted on me on commercial radio and TV.

*****


Now, here's a little memo about an office Christmas party, for the amusement of all. Many of you have probably seen it before, but you might still enjoy reading it again:

Company Memo
FROM:    Patty Lewis, Human Resources Director
TO:         All Employees
DATE:    October 1, 2009
RE:       Gala Christmas Party

I'm happy to inform you that the company Christmas Party will take place on December 23rd, starting at noon in the private function room at the Grill House. There will be a cash bar and plenty of drinks! We'll have a small band playing traditional carols.. feel free to sing along. And don't be surprised if our CEO shows up dressed as Santa Claus! A Christmas tree will be lit at 1:00 PM. Exchanges of gifts among employees can be done at that time; however, no gift should be over $10.00 to make the giving of gifts easy for everyone's pockets. This gathering is only for employees!
Our CEO will make a special announcement at that time!
Merry Christmas to you and your family,
Patty

Company Memo
FROM:    Patty Lewis, Human Resources Director
TO:         All Employees
DATE:    October 2, 2009
RE:       Gala Holiday Party

In no way was yesterday's memo intended to exclude our Jewish employees. We recognize that Hanukkah is an important holiday, which often coincides with Christmas, though unfortunately not this year. However, from now on, we're calling it our "Holiday Party." The same policy applies to any other employees who are not Christians and to those still celebrating Reconciliation Day. There will be no Christmas tree, and no Christmas carols will be sung. We will have other types of music for your enjoyment.
Happy now?
Happy Holidays to you and your family,
Patty

Company Memo
FROM:   Patty Lewis, Human Resources Director
TO:       All Employees
DATE:   October 3, 2009
RE:       Holiday Party

Regarding the note I received from a member of Alcoholics Anonymous requesting a non-drinking table, you didn't sign your name. I'm happy to accommodate this request, but if I put a sign on a table that reads, "AA Only," you wouldn't be anonymous anymore. How am I supposed to handle this?
Somebody?
And sorry, but forget about the gift exchange, no gifts are allowed since the union members feel that $10.00 is too much money and the executives believe $10.00 is a little chintzy.
REMEMBER: NO GIFTS EXCHANGE WILL BE ALLOWED.

Company Memo
FROM: Patty Lewis, Human Resources Director
To:       All Employees
DATE:   October 4, 2009
RE:       Generic Holiday Party

What a diverse group we are! I had no idea that December 20th begins the Muslim holy month of Ramadan, which forbids eating and drinking during daylight hours. There goes the party! Seriously, we can appreciate how a luncheon at this time of year does not accommodate our Muslim employees' beliefs. Perhaps the Grill House can hold off on serving your meal until the end of the party or else package everything for you to take it home in little foil doggy baggy. Will that work?
Meanwhile, I've arranged for members of Weight Watchers to sit farthest from the dessert buffet, and pregnant women will get the table closest to the restrooms. Gays are allowed to sit with each other. Lesbians do not have to sit with Gay men, each group will have their own table.
Yes, there will be flower arrangement for the Gay men's table.
To the person asking permission to cross dress, the Grill House asks that no cross-dressing be allowed, apparently because of concerns about confusion in the restrooms. Sorry
We will have booster seats for short people.
Low-fat food will be available for those on a diet.
I am sorry to report that we cannot control the amount of salt used in the food. The Grill House suggests that people with high blood pressure taste a bite first.
There will be fresh "low sugar" fruits as dessert for diabetics, but the restaurant cannot supply "no sugar" desserts. Sorry!

Did I miss anything?!?!?
Patty
Company Memo
FROM:   Patty Lewis, Human Resources Director
TO:         All F*%^ing Employees
DATE:    October 5, 2009
RE:         The F*%^ing Holiday Party

I've had it with you vegetarian pricks!!! We're going to keep this party at the Grill House whether you like it or not, so you can sit quietly at the table furthest from the "grill of death," as you so quaintly put it, and you'll get your f*%^ing salad bar, including organic tomatoes. But you know, tomatoes have feelings, too. They scream when you slice them. I've heard them scream. I'm hearing them scream right NOW!
The rest of you f*%^ing weirdoes can kiss my *ss. I hope you all have a rotten holiday!
Drive drunk and die,
The B*tch from H*ll!!!
Company Memo
FROM: Joan Bishop, Acting Human Resources Director
DATE:   October 6, 2009
RE:       Patty Lewis and Holiday Party

I'm sure I speak for all of us in wishing Patty Lewis a speedy recovery and I'll continue to forward your cards to her.
In the meantime, management has decided to cancel our Holiday Party and give everyone the afternoon of the 23rd off with full pay.
Happy Holidays!
Joan

Subject: RE: BS: Christmas? A rant
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 27 Nov 09 - 05:35 PM

"...cartoonist Thomas Nast, about 1862... His cartoons of Boss Tweed were so damaging to the corrupt politician that they were the source for the current word "nasty".

Sorry to spoil a good derivation, pdq, but the word "nasty" has been around for a lot longer than that. Shorter Oxford English Dictionary gives it as "late Middle English, origin unknown", but with the earliest reference being from 1548, with the sense "offensive to smell or taste, nauseous".

Subject: RE: BS: Christmas? A rant
From: John on the Sunset Coast
Date: 27 Nov 09 - 06:38 PM

Pardon me if I don't think that a store showing a religious Christmas scene as well as video game display, or playing Christmas Carols as well as Frosty the Snowman is shoving it down your throat. Be adult for heaven's sake! Accept Christmas symbols or ignore Christmas symbols, but don't cause them to be banned, especially in private places catering to the public.

Subject: RE: BS: Christmas? A rant
From: Ruth Archer
Date: 27 Nov 09 - 06:55 PM

I'm struggling to see where anyone on this thread has said they ought to be banned...


You know, some people particularly prone to seeing folk devils everywhere. At the end of the day most people manage to keep a sense of balance and perspective in their lives. But those people who insist on tilting at non-existent windmills make me feel rather sad, because their lives would probably be much happier if they could stop raging at demons that simply aren't there.

Subject: RE: BS: Christmas? A rant
From: Lizzie Cornish 1
Date: 27 Nov 09 - 07:29 PM

I like that memo, Little Hawk.. :0)   

I feel like that about English folk music! ;0)


Moving on, rapidly.........LOL


"Mother Teresa wasn't a noisy one in terms of religion, she was noisy in terms of getting a better deal for the young of Calcutta. The fact her motivation came from her faith is neither here nor there...."


Oh, poo.... :0)

That 'fact' is everything, surely. How can you possibly say that her religious faith counted for nothing, when without that she may never have walked upon the path she did?   She questioned her own faith many a time, but she never gave in....never gave up..

This image....and lie...that all Christians are whacko and bordering on the evil really gets up my nose. It's one that's been cleverly weaved into current day society to the point of people wanting to now run away from the Church and all they stand for as fast as they can...

Yes, of course there ARE religious fanatics, but there are one helluva lot of great and good Christian people out there who've dedicated their lives, in their own quiet way, to helping others and to carrying out the belief of Jesus.

Religion used to create fear is wrong, no matter what that religion may be....and yes, it's been used that way for centuries, with much evil being done in it's name....but you can't just dismiss all Christians as complete nutters.   Yeesh! There'd be an outcry if that attitude was used against Muslims, let's face it..

I think children have never been more 'brainwashed' than they are nowadays, and the Corporate Bastards have simply taken the place of the old Religious Fanatics, using their power to create a new kind of 'fear' unless you belong to their 'Church'. The fear they preach is nothing to do with being a non-believer in God, but the fear of being unacceptd through not having the latest 'must have' toy, the latest article of named clothing, the right £4,000 handbag, the glitziest holiday, the perfect Christmas table......ad infinitum.

It srikes me that getting back to the simple teachings of a man who wanted to help others, might not be so bad.. :0)


For all the Tinsel & Turkey folks visiting Torquay there are many on the streets down here for whom Christmas will be 'just another day'..

"Being unwanted, unloved, uncared for, forgotten by everybody, I think that is a much greater hunger, a much greater poverty than the person who has nothing to eat." - Mother Theresa

Subject: RE: BS: Christmas? A rant
From: CarolC
Date: 28 Nov 09 - 01:38 AM

I don't have any problem with people using the term, "Christmas", myself, but I do get tired of this endless bitching people engage in year after year about what other people call things and what other people do during the December holidays. Why can't people just do what they want and let other people do what they want?

Subject: RE: BS: Christmas? A rant
From: MikeL2
Date: 28 Nov 09 - 06:52 AM

hi carol

Couldn't put it better myself.......so I won't.
Very "unmudkatlike" I know.....but there you go....lol

regards

Mike

Subject: RE: BS: Christmas? A rant
From: Folkiedave
Date: 28 Nov 09 - 08:08 AM

I agree with Carol. I don't use the word Christmas. If there is one thing for certain the celebration around the turn of the year has nothing to do with the birth date of Jesus. So let's get that out of the way. Shepherds would not be in the fields at the time of the year - it is too cold. I am happy to have a celebration at any time. I and friends celebrate the turn of the year. The family come together on December 25th because it is convenient in terms of holidays and people not working.

Nothing to do with religion.

And I wouldn't go overboard about Mother Theresa. There are plenty of people to attest she was by no means perfect and that there was plenty of money in a variety of bank accounts whilst her orphanages were struggling for cash.

This paints a different picture.

Subject: RE: BS: Christmas? A rant
From: Lizzie Cornish 1
Date: 28 Nov 09 - 09:24 AM

It's always so easy to only see the bad, isn't it...

Well, listen to this....

First of all, Mother Theresa has been dead for 12 years, and she cannot be held responsible for what is happening in her homes today.

I agree that if that is what is happening, it needs to be addressed, but more than that, the nuns need help from around the world to look after the children in the correct way, to be taught nursing properly, social care etc....

When I had Toxicara, back when I was 19, I was in Neasden Eye Hospital for well over a month whilst they tried to work out what I had. In that time I grew very close to all the staff and the children too, whose ward I was in.   But....the discipline amongst the nursing staff was total shite. Some of those nurses should never have been there in the first place, they were damned lazy and I was doing their work for them, caring for the children, feeding those who were unable to sit up, changing nappies etc...or rather, using sanitary pads to do that, from the Ladies' Ward, as there were NO nappies on that ward, and one little toddler, who had just had surgery for congenital cataracts, was left all day long in the same nappy until I went a little nuts over it...and they eventually got some nappies on the ward...and spoke to her mother, who seemed not quite with it, to be honest...certainly not able to care too much for her little girl....

Anyway, I digree. The ward was being run by a Malaysian Sister. Really sweet lassie she was, but utterly hopeless at discipline and orders..and didn't those other nurses know it!

Two weeks later, when the Irish sister came back, that ward was a different place. Everything shone, bed corners were tucked in just so, patients gleamed and all was ticketyboo...She was a natural leader, stood for no crap whatsoever and ANY nurse...or indeed doctor or surgeon, who disobeyed her knew they had stepped over the mark, BIGTIME!

If you have a rotten captain at the helm, then your ship will start to sink...I'm sorry, I don't believe Mother Theresa was a rotten captain, nor that she ran a sinking ship.

Those who've followed her...well, who knows...?

But tell me Dave, WHY do you always choose to try and find the bad side of people? It mystifies me, it really does.

May the true Spirit of Christmas find it's way to you...

Subject: RE: BS: Christmas? A rant
From: Folkiedave
Date: 28 Nov 09 - 10:49 AM

But tell me Dave, WHY do you always choose to try and find the bad side of people? It mystifies me, it really does.

Since you have seen the bad side of countless people and organisations, and whose posts are littered with asterisks, I feel that is a bit rich coming from you.

Why have you mentioned the nationality of those nurses, unless you believe in stereotypes of course?

Subject: RE: BS: Christmas? A rant
From: Bonzo3legs
Date: 28 Nov 09 - 10:56 AM

"It's never Muslims or Jews or Hindus or Buddhists who object to Christmas being called Christmas, and publicly celebrated."

Absolutely correct, its loony raving lefties getting offended on behalf of people who don't get offended anyway - usually idiots in local councils.

Subject: RE: BS: Christmas? A rant
From: Folkiedave
Date: 28 Nov 09 - 11:26 AM

Absolutely correct, its loony raving lefties getting offended on behalf of people who don't get offended anyway - usually idiots in local councils.

Actually it's usually right-wing newspapers making the most of some trivial item and getting it wrong.

See this from 2008

And often the same story get repeated over and over again.

Subject: RE: BS: Christmas? A rant
From: Crow Sister (off with the fairies)
Date: 28 Nov 09 - 11:38 AM

Hey, what a neat idea!
I rather like the inclusivity of 'Midwinter Light Festival' where the Christmas lights go 'hand in hand' with other Midwinter 'Light' festivals, occurring at approximately the same time.

Subject: RE: BS: Christmas? A rant
From: Lizzie Cornish 1
Date: 28 Nov 09 - 12:56 PM

Er..I mentioned that one Sister was Malaysian, because er...she was..and I could see her pretty face as I wrote...and that the other sister was Irish, because er...she was...

One was a dragon who got things done..and the other was so very sweet and kind to the patients, but no good at organising staff....

There was a Jamaican nurse there too, who was very racist as she only nursed the black kids...I watched her..and was stunned.

The doctor who saved my sight was Indian..Dr. Sethi...a wonderful man for whom I have the greatest respect...and the Complete Bastard who made racist comments to any staff who didn't have white skin was called Mr. Jackson, the surgeon in charge, who I think was probably of English origin...and a real bully if ever I came across one..The male staff nurse (also Indian) used to stand behind him when he was examining my eye, making me laugh, as he'd pull funny faces at me all the time, the naughty man, because he knew Mr. Jackson would tell me off, which made me splutter even more....It was our way of dealing with the prat and his nasty comments.

Neasden Eye Hospital was a real Blue Mink 'Melting Pot' of cultures and colours...and most of the kids, of all cultures and colours were to be found on my bed having stories read to them (with my good eye) and generally having loads of fun.

You gotta a problem wit that, Dave?

Do grow up, there's a dear..

Subject: RE: BS: Christmas? A rant
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 28 Nov 09 - 02:41 PM

Mentioning "races" of people can equally well be a way of challenging stereotypes.

Subject: RE: BS: Christmas? A rant
From: Jack Blandiver
Date: 28 Nov 09 - 05:22 PM

We were in Lancaster today; it was sunny, cold and I found Peter Maxwell Davies / Fires of London album in Oxfam (Renaissance & Baroque Realisations), and a 1930s guide to Blackpool Tower & Winter Garden from my favourite antiquarian bookstall; Subway are doing Turkey & Stuffing & cranberry, and as we wandered in the twinkling twilight I was freezing, sneezing & wheezing but I can't remember feeling so Christmassy in my life...

Tomorrow - it's off to Borders to pick over the liquidation sale! Ain't life grand??

Here's a thing - did you know Bernard Summer used to work for Cosgrove and Hall and assisted on the animation for such classics as Chorlton and the Wheelies, the opening titles of Rainbow add Jamie and the Magic Torch. Such wonders!

Subject: RE: BS: Christmas? A rant
From: Stringsinger
Date: 28 Nov 09 - 07:49 PM

I think many people have had an idealized vision of Christmas maybe stemming from Charles Dickens or "It's a Wonderful Life". People who keep preaching about putting Christ back into Christmas probably are not terribly conversant with the bible.

Fortunately, the Yule Season has little to do with religion in spite of the fact that religious people attempted to co-opt the holiday for the promotion of their religious zeal.

I believe in a secular Christmas to be celebrated by anyone who wants to keep the tradition.
The absurdity of the abuse of this practice is highlighted by a Christmas pageant that I saw in Rockport, Mass. in the dead of winter. A camel rebelled against the freezing cold and showed his disdain for the procedure by bawling, loudly.

So put up your lights so that you won't have to burn down any trees to bring the sun back.

Subject: RE: BS: Christmas? A rant
From: Q (Frank Staplin)
Date: 28 Nov 09 - 08:29 PM

Several houses in the neighborhood are already lighting up. The sun has gone south, and cloud is frequent; unfortunately sacrifices to bring the sun back seem ineffectual.
A few parties and some single malt do serve to help drive dull care away.

Subject: RE: BS: Christmas? A rant
From: Ed T
Date: 28 Nov 09 - 08:31 PM

Just relax, and try this recipe....things will look up:
http://www.thefedoralounge.com/showthread.php?t=36128

Subject: RE: BS: Christmas? A rant
From: GUEST,Goose Gander (sweet potato pie on the way)
Date: 28 Nov 09 - 11:28 PM

I have never met a human being who claimed to be offended by Christmas.

But I believe that going on and on about whether anyone is offended by Christmas has become a Christmas tradition in and of itself.

But only if it happens in a Designated Folkish Hand-Wringing Context.

So there.

Subject: RE: BS: Christmas? A rant
From: dick greenhaus
Date: 28 Nov 09 - 11:37 PM

Oh Hell. Let's put the X back in Xmas!

Subject: RE: BS: Christmas? A rant
From: Ref
Date: 29 Nov 09 - 05:41 PM

Some of you Mother Theresa worshipers should read Christopher Hitchens on the old girl. Those orphanages and hospitals were hell-holes while she was in charge, and collecting awards and huge sums of money all over the world.

As for Christmas, I love the season, though I abandoned Christianity a long time ago. Most of the traditions, as others have correctly pointed out, come from pre-Christian spiritual practices. As for being offended, You might be offended, too, if you had a belief in another religion and everyone kept assuming you were Christian. Neither Ramadan nor Hannukah is an equivalency to Christmas in their religions. Our (Christians and Christian-heritage people) ability to "ignore" those two celebrations is made a lot easier by the fact that they make so little a dent in media and marketing.

I said years ago that I'd believe the old bigot's saw about Jews controlling the media as soon as I saw "It's Hannukah, Charlie Brown!"

Subject: RE: BS: Christmas? A rant
From: Little Hawk
Date: 29 Nov 09 - 05:47 PM

It's mostly driven by money, Ref. The mass media in the western world publicize whatever causes people to run out and spend the most money, and that means they will publicize Christmas, not Ramadan or Hanukah. Do they care about the religious or spiritual aspect of Christmas? No! But they do care about how much time people will spend at the mall frantically buying presents and stuff.

Why be so worried about Christianity when it's really just the trimming on the tree? The real religion these days is gross materialism, driven by conspicuous consumption. Consumerism, it's called. They have the gall to label us "consumers". What a dehumanizing term that is.

So what did you choose to do on Buy Nothing Day? ;-)

Subject: RE: BS: Christmas? A rant
From: Ed T
Date: 29 Nov 09 - 06:19 PM

Oh, the fire's burning slow
Now where's that mistletoe
Dear, it's getting kind of hot in here
I need a taste of Christmas cheer
I hope he gets here quick, I need a St. Nick fix
Oooo-eee, I just want him to be all wrapped up for me
Santa's never been this hard to resist
But Santa never used to look like this

He's traded in his reindeer for a limosine
He's wearing purple trousers instead of red and green
This Christmas I want something I never had
Cause Santa's got a brand new bag

Now, I got to got to find out how
To make him want to settle down
I've got a big fat kiss right at the top of my list
So we can build a little candy home
And have a few elves of our own
I want to sneak a peek at my surprise
And see tradition metamorphasize

He's given up the cookies and he's slimming down
He bought a little bungalow in Tinsel Town
This Christmas I want something I never had
Cause Santa's got a brand new bag

As he finds his Zen down on the kitchen floor
He lights a fat Cohiba from his humidor
This Christmas I want something I never had

Cause Santa's got a brand new bag

He's got a Richenbacher and he's bleached his hair
He's rockin to the rythm with a Latin flair
This Christmas I want something I've never had
Cause Santa's got a brand new bag

He's reading Socrates and cooking French cuisine
He's pictured on the front of money magazine
This Christmas I want something I've never had
Cause Santa's got a brand new
Santa's got, Santa's got a brand new bag

"Santa's Got A Brand New Bag" lyrics

Subject: RE: BS: Christmas? A rant
From: Lizzie Cornish 1
Date: 30 Nov 09 - 06:22 AM

We're getting more and Cathedrals of Consumerism in this country, as every city gets more and more new shopping 'malls'....No-one has any money to spend in them anymore, but that doesn't seem to stop them being built....or worshipped in..

Funny ol' world, eh?

I'm just intrigued, Ref, as to why no-one ever noticed that Mother Theresa was 'apparently' running hell holes of children's homes whilst she was alive. ?

Subject: RE: BS: Christmas? A rant
From: GUEST,Steamin' Willie
Date: 30 Nov 09 - 06:52 AM

Oh Heck, Lizzie...

I reckon you and I started this Mother Teresa thing when you noted she was a Christian and I noted that her work was the children, not her faith. Now it seems everybody is on the angel or otherwise bandwagon. Even some clown quoting Christopher Hitchens, which proves nothing other than the quality of the newspaper they get their opinions from. (Did you know that Hitchens claims to want the British Empire back and that is was a good thing? )

Quite obviously, everybody has a different view of what Xmas should be about, and equally, everybody has a personal memory of what Xmas means to them.

I think the issue here is that if somebody, take myself for example, points out that I am not a Christian, am not superstitious and don't believe in fairies at the bottom of the garden BUT enjoy my Xmas... You get people popping up saying that if you miss out the little baby Jesus, it isn't Xmas. Well it is! It's my Xmas. So there! to the lot of 'em.

Sadly, if you point out that you don't believe in supernatural nonsense, you are immediately taken as somebody who picks on Christianity and "You wouldn't upset a Muslim."

Err... no. I for one don't pick on Christians, I leave that to Romans and large felines.

I do however jump down the throat of anybody who tries telling me how to live my life, and make a point of knocking on my door or pontificating from The House of Lords.

So, HUMBUG to them, and hurrah! for consumerism, the (fairly) new religion.....

Subject: RE: BS: Christmas? A rant
From: Ruth Archer
Date: 30 Nov 09 - 06:54 AM

Christopher Hitchens' book about the conditions in Mother Theresa's care homes was published in 1995, two years before her death. Apparently, little has changed:

New Statesman article, 2005

Fa la la la la.

Subject: RE: BS: Christmas? A rant
From: Dave MacKenzie
Date: 30 Nov 09 - 10:34 AM

"pontificating from The House of Lords"

Seems an appropriate place to do it, as the Pontiff was the Roman Emperor in his role as High Priest of the pagan state reilion.

I don't think I've ever had Christians knocking on my door, just Mormons and Jehovah's Witnesses.

Subject: RE: BS: Christmas? A rant
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 30 Nov 09 - 11:03 AM

Hitchens claims to want the British Empire back and that is was a good thing >>>

Don't you think so then, Willie? You poor young man. Try going to sub-Saharan Africa & find someone old enough to remember pre-independence days [but hurry: there are fewer left every day] & ask them whether they liked it better then or now. You might be surprised at the answers you get — they'll be the same ones as I got in Sierra Leone in 1991-92, I'll give you 9-5 odds any day of the week. But you won't. & you won't believe me. & you'll pity me as a poor old fart. OK then - please yourself & Steam·On...

Subject: RE: BS: Christmas? A rant
From: Jack Blandiver
Date: 30 Nov 09 - 11:09 AM

Thanks for that MT link, Ruth.

Subject: RE: BS: Christmas? A rant
From: pdq
Date: 30 Nov 09 - 11:27 AM

...I don't think I've ever had Christians knocking on my door, just Mormons and Jehovah's Witnesses

Both the Jehovah's Witnesses and the Mormons (the followers of the LDS) are Christian groups.

Subject: RE: BS: Christmas? A rant
From: Dave MacKenzie
Date: 30 Nov 09 - 01:28 PM

They might think they are.

Subject: RE: BS: Christmas? A rant
From: Folkiedave
Date: 30 Nov 09 - 01:44 PM

as every city gets more and more new shopping 'malls'....No-one has any money to spend in them anymore, but that doesn't seem to stop them being built....or worshipped in..

We have one of these in Sheffield. I call it Meadowhell (really Meadowhall), and I am delighted to say I have never been there. I often pass two more Trafford Centre and Metro Centre Gateshead.

For No-one has any money to spend in them anymore they seem remarkably busy. Despite my absence from all of them.

Subject: RE: BS: Christmas? A rant
From: Folkiedave
Date: 30 Nov 09 - 02:37 PM

Mother Theresa has lots of critics not just Christopher Hitchens. These include distinguished doctors. And again in 1994 before she died.

A "google" would tell you more. When Civil Liberties were suspended in India she supported this. And just to put things in perspective Christopher Hitchens both wrote a book and made a Channel Four Film, niot a newpaper article. As have lots of other people.

You can read another view of Mother Theresa here.

You can make your own mind up.

Subject: RE: BS: Christmas? A rant
From: Amergin
Date: 30 Nov 09 - 02:47 PM

Who gives a shit....holidays suck no matter what denomination....

Subject: RE: BS: Christmas? A rant
From: Folkiedave
Date: 30 Nov 09 - 03:25 PM

I never have holidays. I do have periods when I leave my own environment and gather with friends and family.

Subject: RE: BS: Christmas? A rant
From: Q (Frank Staplin)
Date: 30 Nov 09 - 03:28 PM

Who gives a shit...holidays are wonderful as long as one can enjoy family, friends, single malt (and Pumpkin pies at this season).
A gift or two wouldn't be refused.

Mormons welcome, and I don't have to worry about them drinking up my single malt!

Subject: RE: BS: Christmas? A rant
From: Jack Blandiver
Date: 30 Nov 09 - 03:59 PM

We have one of these in Sheffield. I call it Meadowhell (really Meadowhall), and I am delighted to say I have never been there. I often pass two more Trafford Centre and Metro Centre Gateshead.

I love Meadowhall & The Trafford Centre; less keen on the Metro Centre which isn't as inspiring architecturally. The post-modern excesses of The Trafford Centre I find especially thrilling - nothing like eating Subway in that huge ocean liner food-hall beneath that painted sky. And I like it at night, all lit up, looks like some heavenly Bethlehem.

Another Bernard Sumner reference: the older he gets, the more he comes to resemble Phil Mitchell...

Subject: RE: BS: Christmas? A rant
From: Ruth Archer
Date: 30 Nov 09 - 04:43 PM

Sweeney, we really need to wean you off Subway... :)

Subject: RE: BS: Christmas? A rant
From: Q (Frank Staplin)
Date: 30 Nov 09 - 06:06 PM

Had a Subway the other day- fresh brown bread, roast chicken, fresh tomato, lettuce and sliced pickles. Very good!

Subject: RE: BS: Christmas? A rant
From: Q (Frank Staplin)
Date: 30 Nov 09 - 06:07 PM

Forgot, some pieces of of Anaheim chili

Subject: RE: BS: Christmas? A rant
From: Folkiedave
Date: 30 Nov 09 - 07:31 PM

I love Meadowhall & The Trafford Centre; less keen on the Metro Centre which isn't as inspiring architecturally.

I think discriminating between the architectural niceties of shopping centres shows a certain elegance that distinguishes Mudcat from other message boards.

Well done!

Subject: RE: BS: Christmas? A rant
From: Ruth Archer
Date: 30 Nov 09 - 07:32 PM

I guess it depends on how you define "good" - Subway's staple ingredients are heavily processed meats and cheeses full of salt and other additives, and various other "portion-controlled" items that come packed in brine, or water, or tinned...it's horrible, processed junk - it's just pretending not to be.

Eat Fresh? Hmmmm....

Subject: RE: BS: Christmas? A rant
From: Stringsinger
Date: 30 Nov 09 - 07:33 PM

I think the best part of Christmas is the chance to establish a sense of community with family and friends. Any excuse for a good party is OK by me. The carols are fun to sing.
They are musically quite interesting. (I don't believe a word of the religious part though).

Why pour cold water on a fun holiday? Just forget about Walfart and the stores and have a good time.

I like the Winter Solstice idea and the Yule log that burns for days. I think it can be a lot of fun for kids and that is what is really important.

And the lights. It beats burning down trees to bring back the sun. They are lovely to
look at.

Subject: RE: BS: Christmas? A rant
From: Ref
Date: 30 Nov 09 - 08:17 PM

Well put, Stringsinger!

Subject: RE: BS: Christmas? A rant
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 30 Nov 09 - 10:00 PM

'Forgot, some pieces of of Anaheim chili' - Q

What that, precisely? I mean, I have been to Anaheim but didn't notice anything special about the chili: tho I am still, 6 years later, using up a bottle of mouthwash I bought at a 7-11 store there [not that it was partic different from same mouthwash bought anywhere else — why I should so specifically recall having bought it in Anaheim, I have no idea].

Subject: RE: BS: Christmas? A rant
From: Amos
Date: 30 Nov 09 - 10:51 PM

Jeeze, guys. It seems clear to me that a lot of the discussion is precipitated by bot recognizing that one word has two definitions, and people talk at cross purposes when they don't make it clear which one they intend.

Christmas is a shortened form of "Christ Mass" which is by doctrine the recognition of the Christian prophet's birth day. It was not his actual birthday, as far as I know, but it s the decreed celebration.

It is also a national civil holiday denoted by gift exchange, weird lighting effects, a mad rush for pine trees, and the worship of an overweight animal-abuser with a whip who hides out in the North Pole.

Happy Holidays to you, too.

And by the way, it is faintly ridiculous to insist on parsing the word "holiday" to its original meaning of "holy day". These days it means a spot the painter missed or a long week in the Canaries.

A

Subject: RE: BS: Christmas? A rant
From: Jack Blandiver
Date: 01 Dec 09 - 08:06 AM

I've just opened the first door on my Advent Calendar; it tells of certain shepherds, keeping watch. I was thinking of a musical advent calendar this year, but I doubt I'm going to have time. Meanwhile, here's a piece I did yesterday by way of closure to Blod-Monath:

30 Days Hath November

The drum-loop comes from Sned, who used to play in Generic, a band we played with in Newcastle 25 years ago - I even played viola on their first EP! Back then, in Rhombus ov Dooom, I played electric viola (both la gamba and a braccio!) so it's nice getting back into some of that spirit on the new violin, which I play over the elbow - a la Jim Eldon, Michael Hurley & Indian folk musicians.

Subject: RE: BS: Christmas? A rant
From: Lizzie Cornish 1
Date: 01 Dec 09 - 11:51 AM

Well, he sounds a pretty nasty piece of work to me...sarcastic, bitter and bitchy.

He obviously loathes Roman Catholicism...and Mother Teresa's views on abortion, so he's hardly going to be painting her in a good light..

Sorry, but I'd rather be nursed by her than by him...


Hell's Angel - Christopher Hitchens on Mother Teresa - Youtube

Hell's Angel - Part 2

Hell's Angel - Part 3

Subject: RE: BS: Christmas? A rant
From: Donuel
Date: 01 Dec 09 - 12:17 PM

S O'P
Sorry I could not hear a cello or a gamba or a viola in the electronic storm/music.


((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((

Now that the ancient holiday of the harvest is behind us, the archaic celebration of the solstice and the return of longer days is before us.

Every culture and civilization has tacked on whatever version of those celebrations in thier own name. C'est la vie.





I have noticed that there is no longer a regularly scheduled televised rant on FOX regarding the Horrendous WAR ON CHRISTMAS.

I think this is because there is no longer a Rove policy to hype a religious controversy that the Bush administration ignited time and again, in order to equate the President with the voice of God.
To question Bush was to question personal faith and was considered the supream insult to religion itself.

Ginning up the evangelicals to support such a President helped to distract the masses from the misguided, violent and greedy theft of America which has caused more damage to this country than any and all enemies, foreign and domestic since WW II.

It made me sad to see the true believers soil their own holiday with such fear and loathing. Whatchagonnado

Some of those same people have now lost their homes and jobs to the Bush policies,YET THEY STILL scream their town hall rant to give America to The Insurance Companies, for the Corporations and by International Banksters so that regular people will persih from the Earth.

Its like the religious base are in a coma from which they refuse to wake. IF one or two wake up they are beaten back to unconsciousness.


)

Subject: RE: BS: Christmas? A rant
From: Jack Blandiver
Date: 01 Dec 09 - 12:28 PM

I had the viola hooked up through all sorts of pedals & FX so the sound was a pure noise wash along with everything else. By gamba I meant I often played it between my legs (as in the picture on the Rhombus page) & braccio, under my chin. These days, I play it over my elbow, as I say.

Subject: RE: BS: Christmas? A rant
From: Folkiedave
Date: 01 Dec 09 - 12:30 PM

In 1994, Robin Fox, editor of the prestigious medical journal Lancet, in a commentary on the catastrophic conditions prevailing in Mother Teresa's homes, shocked the professional world by saying that any systematic operation was foreign to the running of the homes in India: TB patients were not isolated, and syringes were washed in lukewarm water before being used again. Even patients in unbearable pain were refused strong painkillers, not because the order did not have them, but on principle. "The most beautiful gift for a person is that he can participate in the suffering of Christ," said Mother Teresa. Once she had tried to comfort a screaming sufferer, "You are suffering, that means Jesus is kissing you." The sufferer screamed back, furious, "Then tell your Jesus to stop kissing me."

Lizzie you used to work in a hospital. Do you approve of this? And do you still say you would like to be nursed by her?

Simple yes or no will do.

Subject: RE: BS: Christmas? A rant
From: Q (Frank Staplin)
Date: 01 Dec 09 - 01:00 PM

MtheGM-
Some light Green chili peppers, on the medium hot to mild side, marketed across Canada and much of the U. S., are called Anaheim chili peppers, but I suspect that they are grown in many areas now. Just a pleasent addition to eggs, or stew. Those used in sandwiches are canned, and quite mild.
The name is used as a marketing tool for 'California' green chili. Supposedly the name was applied by a farmer named Emilio Ortega (I remember the canned ones marketed under his name in the States but not in Canada) and grown in the Anaheim area.

Those really serious about chili know the virtues of Hatch, Chimayo, smoked medium hot or hot chilis in cooking (several types with different flavors), but Anaheims are milder.

Anaheims are rather thick skinned and have to be steamed or charred before peeling.

Somewhere above, Subway is trashed for its ingredients, but the ones here use fresh tomatoes and lettuce, bake their bread in house, and use quality processed or frozen meats. Not the best of eating places, but they serve a good cheap meal for the hurried.
(If I was served a sandwich without salted ingredients, I would certainly add salt).

Subject: RE: BS: Christmas? A rant
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 01 Dec 09 - 01:06 PM

Thanks Q

Subject: RE: BS: Christmas? A rant
From: Jack the Sailor
Date: 01 Dec 09 - 01:38 PM

"I have just finished looking at adverts from eighteen (18) different retailers for sales beginning tomorrow. Not even one of these refers in any way to Christmas. Well, a few do show snow flakes or baubles in the background, but the few times the C word shows up it is to advertise a 'Christmas tree'.

So the rant is--What's the point of giving gifts in December if there is no underlying meaning to them anymore? Why not give gifts in August when nothing much else is going on? Or on my birthday?--That would be swell."

The reason for the lack of Christian sentiment in retail advertising seems obvious to me. Good will and charity conflict with consumerism. When I was a kid. The Salvation Army used to run ads with Christian messages in the run up to Christmas. Even for a child those ads, along with the Charlie Brown Christmas, attenuated the consumer frenzy for me.

But I do see Christian symbols at Christmas John, plenty of them. But mostly in the homes of those who keep Jesus at the forefront for the rest of the year. But obviously the retailers are not trying to appeal to those people.

Why not give gifts during the rest of the year? I'm sure the retailers would love it. Speaking for our family, My wife an I tend to buy most of our consumer goods from Thanksgiving to Christmas eve. The main reason being that we know how much money we have made for the year, and how much we have to spare. That's when the best sales usually are and we have time to shop.

Subject: RE: BS: Christmas? A rant
From: Q (Frank Staplin)
Date: 01 Dec 09 - 01:59 PM

It's just sorta nice to have a period in the year for general recognition of friends and family, gift-giving (and shopping for one's own pleasure), having a few parties, relaxing from the usual 'routine'.

Why does it have to be associated with something in religious calendars???

Viva the Holiday season!

Subject: RE: BS: Christmas? A rant
From: Folkiedave
Date: 01 Dec 09 - 02:58 PM

Why does it have to be associated with something in religious calendars???

I think it is generally accepted that the Christians tagged on their celebration to an existing holiday.

Subject: RE: BS: Christmas? A rant
From: Lizzie Cornish 1
Date: 01 Dec 09 - 03:46 PM

"Lizzie you used to work in a hospital. Do you approve of this? And do you still say you would like to be nursed by her?

Simple yes or no will do."

I used to work in Harley St., Dave, not a hospital. I booked up the operations, got the entire teams together, liased with them all etc..

Do I believe it, is more the question, not if I approve.

You're always telling me NOT to believe everything I read, Dave, soooooo.....

I find it hard to believe that if the conditions in Mother Teresa's homes were SO bad, the world was not outraged at the time, rather than people jumping on the 'let's back Mother Teresa' bangwagon just prior to her death. I presume that many have made loadsa money out of her though and still do to this day.

No, I doubt her homes were run like The Wellington Hospital, or The Princess Grace, but then...she opened those homes in some of the most deprived parts of India......looking after the ones that the rest of the world threw away to die..They were run by nuns who were surrounded and outnumbered by the poor people, almost to the point of distraction, being so overwhelmed with the numbers of human beings they looked after.

Indeed, in one of those videos above, you see a young British woman talking about her time spent with the nuns..and you see her playing with the children, grabbing a foot of one child and pulling the child towards her. Of course, no-one seems to have seen anything wrong in this, but....I've no doubt that if it had been one of the nuns she went on to later criticise, then there'd have been an outcry over 'how the nun grabbed the child and pulled her by her foot' etc..etc..etc....

Some folks have one rule for themselves, and others for er...others..

Very few of us are saints, if any at all, but I believe that Mother Teresa had far more good in her than bad....

May I politely suggest that until you have helped as many people, saved as many children as she did, lived the life she did and dedicated your entire life to saving and caring for others, that you desist in trying to prove that Mother Teresa was a wicked and bad person.

December 1st today, I'm off to open my Advent Calendar...

Subject: RE: BS: Christmas? A rant
From: Lizzie Cornish 1
Date: 01 Dec 09 - 03:49 PM

'let's back Mother Teresa' bangwagon<<<


Oops...that should have read "the 'let's bash Mother Teresa' bandwagon"....

:0)

Subject: RE: BS: Christmas? A rant
From: pdq
Date: 01 Dec 09 - 03:56 PM

Big, plump, fresh-picked Anaheim peppers make great chile rellenos.

A friend of mine used to grow them, peel the skins with the help of an acetylene torch, then give them to his wife to finish the process.

Subject: RE: BS: Christmas? A rant
From: Ruth Archer
Date: 01 Dec 09 - 04:00 PM

"Somewhere above, Subway is trashed for its ingredients, but the ones here use fresh tomatoes and lettuce, bake their bread in house, and use quality processed or frozen meats."

McDonalds uses fresh lettuce and tomato too - does that mean it isn't junk food?

The bread is full of hydrogenated fat and processed in a factory, then put into an oven on-site. If that's "baked in house" to you, fair enough.

With the greatest of respect, "quality processed frozen meats" - and cheese, for that matter - is an oxymoron. It's full of chemicals and loads of sodium, and probably contains mechanically recovered meat. Again, if you're good with that, fine - but health food it ain't.

Subject: RE: BS: Christmas? A rant
From: pdq
Date: 01 Dec 09 - 04:05 PM

Obviously, the terms "health food" and "healthy food" are quite different, at least to some people.

Subject: RE: BS: Christmas? A rant
From: Folkiedave
Date: 01 Dec 09 - 04:14 PM

I have suggested you don't believe everything you read in the Daily Mail Lizzie, not exactly the same thing.

I find it hard to believe that if the conditions in Mother Teresa's homes were SO bad, the world was not outraged at the time, rather than people jumping on the 'let's back Mother Teresa' bangwagon just prior to her death. I presume that many have made loadsa money out of her though and still do to this day.

Actually Lizzie a number of people have pointed out that they were pointed out at the time. Of course you can ignore what people tell you when it doesn't suit you. Of course you can. And do.......

As for the millions who you presume make loadsa money out of her I wonder how they do this?

After all she doesn't have any money does she?

In fact of course her organisation received millions and little or none of was spent on the people it was aimed at.

Try reading this. It tells you where the money went.

Subject: RE: BS: Christmas? A rant
From: Lizzie Cornish 1
Date: 01 Dec 09 - 05:19 PM

I already read that, Dave, but I didn't link to it because again, it unsettled me, in that it doesn't give any evidence really, just more opinions...

Oh, right...so it's ONLY the Daily Mail that I mustn't read then? Didn't realise that....I forgot about the insanity in here that surrounds that particular paper, unless, of course, it prints an article that The Extreme Lefties love, in which case, they quote from it.   

I prefer The Hypocritical Times, myself, as it lists the names of many who write their articles...and some I seem to recognise from in here... ;0)


Yeah, maybe you're right. Maybe Mother Teresa was nowt more than an evil lil' ol' lady who dressed in baggy robes, so she could stuff her money down her underwear, whilst making those under her care scream out in agony, cackling "Jesus Loves You, Suffer as he Did, you bastard!".....then disappearing into her luxurious office at the back of her home, to plan her next cruise holiday.

Lawdy, I can't think why I didn't see it before!! (raises hand to head and smacks thick fist against thick head!)


But then again....maybe you're completely wrong.

Christopher Hitchens though is determined to bad mouth anyone who believes in God, so it would seem, let alone those from the Catholic Church.

Methinks he has a Mission of his very own, but not one that has much Spirit inside it..

Subject: RE: BS: Christmas? A rant
From: Q (Frank Staplin)
Date: 01 Dec 09 - 05:39 PM

Hooray for junk food!
I had a banana ((non-junk?) at noon, but made it palatable with Tostitos and hermit cookies ('junk'). Tomorrow I will have Angus beef or pastrami sandwiches, the meat sliced off the block prepared by the local meat factory, full of those chemicals and lovely salt. Lots of butter on the bread. Lovely! Maybe a Snickers in mid-afternoon.

When I travel, nothing like a bag of Cheezies for company. It does mess the car with orange-colored dust. One bag per three hour trip. Might stop at a Subway or Golden Arches for a snack. Yum, lovely bacon-burgers!

Breakfast is Quaker oatmeal (more processed junk) with lots of sugar, commercial dairy milk and Minute Maid canned orange juice. And lots of coffee all day.

Dinner may be a nice bit of cow or pig or lamb or maybe a store-bought roast chicken, vegetable cooked in butter (well-salted), and, pay attention! a mango, pear, avocado with lime and green chili, and more of that commercial milk to wash down the factory-made pills the doctor prescribed. Sometimes I go gourmet; a pot of beans cooked with salt-cured ham, red chili powder. Lotsa coffee all day.

The only health nuts I knew are already buried; I'm 86.

Subject: RE: BS: Christmas? A rant
From: Folkiedave
Date: 01 Dec 09 - 06:01 PM

Lawdy, I can't think why I didn't see it before!! (raises hand to head and smacks thick fist against thick head!)

Clearly not hard enough. But at least we have an admission that your fist and your head are thick.

That's a start.

Subject: RE: BS: Christmas? A rant
From: Ruth Archer
Date: 01 Dec 09 - 06:09 PM

Q - good on you! But I fear you are missing my point (perhaps not made very well): Subway markets itself as a "healthy" alternative to all the junk fast food out there. Several studies and investigations have proven that it's actually just as much processed rubbish as the other stuff. I know people who won't eat at Mickey D's because it's rubbish, but who think Subway is fine. I just think (especially if you're a parent or eating it regularly) it's better to be able to make an informed choice.

Now, back to Mother Theresa and Christmas (?)

Subject: RE: BS: Christmas? A rant
From: Folkiedave
Date: 01 Dec 09 - 06:21 PM

Now, back to Mother Theresa and Christmas (?)

And the Tower, don't forget the Tower!!

Subject: RE: BS: Christmas? A rant
From: Folkiedave
Date: 01 Dec 09 - 06:28 PM

To Q.

And my grandfather was still climbing ladders to clean windows at 72. ('Cos he was poor) He also smoked 40 Woodbines a day - thus he was poor - and died at 82. Doen't mean to say smoking is good for you!! :-)

I had some home made watercress and potato soup for lunch with home made bread (wholemeal flour). Evening meal was a cauliflower and lentil dhal with more home made bread.

And about four large gin and tonics. Who says we cant eat and drink healthily?

Subject: RE: BS: Christmas? A rant
From: pdq
Date: 01 Dec 09 - 06:46 PM

"Fasciola hepatica, the liver fluke, has a complex life cycle, requiring water snails as intermediate hosts. Humans and other mammals acquire the organism by eating cyst-contaminated water plants. Watercress is a common source of the parasite for humans. The cysts release immature flukes that migrate to the liver and gallbladder. A high load of the parasite may obstruct the biliary tract."

Enjoy your catercress sandwich.

I'd rather have a Pizza or a Big Mac anytime.

Subject: RE: BS: Christmas? A rant
From: curmudgeon
Date: 01 Dec 09 - 07:54 PM

"Watercress is a common source of the parasite for humans."

That's what the gin is for - Tom

Subject: RE: BS: Christmas? A rant
From: Folkiedave
Date: 02 Dec 09 - 04:09 AM

I am trying desperately to reach the recommended "Five a Day"

I have some fruit, (lemon in my gin and tonic) Vegetable (carrot cake) I have tomato (in the form of sauce on my chips) just two to go.

Any suggestions?

Subject: RE: BS: Christmas? A rant
From: Folkiedave
Date: 02 Dec 09 - 04:13 AM

Does a cucumber face mask count? Do the five a day have to be ingested?

Subject: RE: BS: Christmas? A rant
From: Jack Blandiver
Date: 02 Dec 09 - 06:22 AM

Has anyone else tried the new festive Subway?? Highly recommended! It's like eating leftovers from an Xmas dinner - stuffing, chicken (not turkey), cranberry sauce, cold gravy - and salad - and toasted, with cheese...

For my Festive Reading I was persevering with Stations of the Sun but was beaten back by a combination of minuscule typeface, turgid academic prose and a brain too clogged up with snot and mucus to make any sort of sense of it. Instead I'm on with the latest instalment of the Dandy / Beano restrospective series (a suitably seasonal Winter Games) which I'm reading in tandem with Torn Apart: The Life of Ian Curtis by Mick Middles and Lindsay Reade. In this latter I've just read how Joy Division recorded their debut EP An Ideal for Living in Pennine Sound Studio in Oldham on Boxing day 1978. For sustenance, their then-manager's mother made up a batch of barmcake sarnies using cold Xmas leftovers from the day before - not turkey note, but chicken, as befits our heroes' humble social origins.

Echoes of the Festive Subway perhaps? - although I might despair that barmcake is not one of the bread options on offer! So, here's a festive classic: Leaders of Men recorded on that freezing boxing day in Oldham almost 32 years ago. You can almost smell those Xmas dinner leftovers!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AtpyAVzdXVw

Subject: RE: BS: Christmas? A rant
From: Jack Blandiver
Date: 02 Dec 09 - 06:30 AM

Those lyrics are a might festive too:

Born from some mother's womb,
Just like any other room.
Made a promise for a new life.
Made a victim out of your life.

When your time's on the door,
And it drips to the floor,
And you feel you can touch,
All the noise is too much,
And the seeds that are sown,
Are no longer your own.

Just a minor operation,
To force a final ultimatum.
Thousand words are spoken loud,
Reach the dumb to fool the crowd.

When you walk down the street,
And the sound's not so sweet,
And you wish you could hide,
Maybe go for a ride,
To some peep show arcade,
Where the future's not made.

A nightmare situation,
Infiltrate imagination,
Smacks of past Holy wars,
By the wall with broken laws.

The leaders of men,
Born out of your frustration.
The leaders of men,
Just a strange infatuation.
The leaders of men,
Made a promise for a new life.
No saviour for our sakes,
To twist the internees of hate,
Self induced manipulation,
To crush all thoughts of mass salvation.

Subject: RE: BS: Christmas? A rant
From: Ruth Archer
Date: 02 Dec 09 - 07:17 AM

"Echoes of the Festive Subway perhaps?"


Sweeney - you crack me up. :)

Subject: RE: BS: Christmas? A rant
From: GUEST,Steamin' Willie
Date: 02 Dec 09 - 07:17 AM

Wow... I read a few posts after my last one and decided to wait a while. I neither expect or deserve everybody agreeing with me but not in my wildest dreams did I expect anybody supporting Britain's Empire as being something we need back..... Hitchens does have at least one faithful reader then.

I for one do worship at the alter of Mammon, or Meadowhall as it is called in this post. I have a particular affection for the Apple Store where the prophet Steve Jobs shows us his latest shiny baubles for us to adorn our desks and pockets with, (although the collecting dish they pass around empties the old wallet.)

So... we have Hitchens hating some religions with others asking if he is qualified to speak on such matters, as he is an atheist. Folkie Dave being proud that he has never been in Meadowhall, yet seems to know enough about it to comment. And Mother Teresa...

I can say with a degree of professional confidence that I do know a bit about her establishments and if they were here in The UK and tried to register under The Care Standards Act 2000, the infection control, duty of care and governance would possibly not allow them to operate.

But hey, this is where we judge others not by our own standards but by standards we feel "good enough for others."

Which brings us back to the Empire. Oh and Bishops influencing legislation....

ZZZZZZZZZ

Subject: RE: BS: Christmas? A rant
From: Crow Sister (off with the fairies)
Date: 02 Dec 09 - 07:42 AM

Pagan Christmas

This makes a nice read at midwinter, not so much for local festival days as the pre-Christian Germanic & Scandinavian origins (and process of adoption/adaptation) of many of our current 'Christmas' traditions (particularly aromatics, supernatural beings & folk customs). Lots of lovely colourful piccies too - old postcards, adverts, woodcuts etc. Even includes incense recipes for the 'smudging nights' (lovely pragmatic quote: "if you experience psychoactive effects with incense, you have probably inhaled too much smoke").

Subject: RE: BS: Christmas? A rant
From: Folkiedave
Date: 02 Dec 09 - 08:12 AM

Folkie Dave being proud that he has never been in Meadowhall, yet seems to know enough about it to comment.

It has its own transport interchange and is a train stop. It has an 11 screen cinema complex. It takes 12,000 cars parked for free. It acts as a meeting place for people coming to Sheffield because it is next to the mtorway.

Know enough about it to comment? You can hardly miss it!

Subject: RE: BS: Christmas? A rant
From: Folkiedave
Date: 02 Dec 09 - 08:14 AM

Folkie Dave being proud that he has never been in Meadowhall, yet seems to know enough about it to comment.

It has its own transport interchange and is a train stop. It has an 11 screen cinema complex. It takes 12,000 cars parked for free. It acts as a meeting place for people coming to Sheffield because it is next to the mtorway.

Know enough about it to comment? You can hardly miss it!

Subject: RE: BS: Christmas? A rant
From: Jack Blandiver
Date: 02 Dec 09 - 08:47 AM

We used to use Meadowhall as service station on forays up & down the M1 when we lived in Durham - just as we used to hit The Trafford Centre en route to Les's singaround at The Beech - the first being two years ago, being hungry en route & unsure of the Chorlton amenities. Though we no longer attend the Beech sing (which is no longer the necessity it once was having discovered The Moorbrook in Preston which is the finest sing / session in the world bar none), once every eight weeks or so we might head for the Trafford Centre after a jaunt to Manchester for a rake around in the warm of a winter's night - or the dry of a summer's.

I doubt I'd be doing this on my own, but after 10 years Rapunzel & I still very much in love and enjoy romantic Subways, going to see Harry Potter films (and District 9), and looking at stuff in the shops we'll later buy at half the price on-line. We like IKEA too, as much for the fish & chips as the flat-pack crap with with we furnish our home (the odd antique notwithstanding) but quite honestly Christmas wouldn't be Christmas without The Trafford Centre.

Another of my Festive Reads this year: Vic Reeves' Vast Book of World Knowledge - a more than worthy follow-up to his 1999 classic Sun Boiled Onions.

Subject: RE: BS: Christmas? A rant
From: Folkiedave
Date: 02 Dec 09 - 09:28 AM

We like IKEA too, as much for the fish & chips.......

Meatballs surely?

Subject: RE: BS: Christmas? A rant
From: Ruth Archer
Date: 02 Dec 09 - 09:33 AM

"We like IKEA too, as much for the fish & chips.......

Meatballs surely?"


Daim Bar Cake, surely??

Subject: RE: BS: Christmas? A rant
From: Donuel
Date: 02 Dec 09 - 09:39 AM

England had their version of right wing fundamentalist Christians who banned Christmas celebrations and decorations because they felt it was a despicable drunken way to honor Jesus. After a while the people got so fed up with that brand of religion they cast out these zealots. England got their Christmas parties back. These purists had to sail to the New World to guarantee their serious practice of religion and Christmas.

Well Thanks alot England. These Puritans are still here in one form or another and are still a big pain in the ass.

The irony is that Commercial Christmas here goes beyond anything the early Puritans could have imagined.

A cranky yankee
from Maryland.

Subject: RE: BS: Christmas? A rant
From: Crow Sister (off with the fairies)
Date: 02 Dec 09 - 10:05 AM

"We like IKEA too, as much for the fish & chips as the flat-pack crap with with we furnish our home (the odd antique notwithstanding)"

Your house (from the photys & tubeys you've posted) looks like a magic grotto. The only stuff from IKEA I really fancy is their err 'storage solutions' so I could get my tonnes of stuff tidied up. Otherwise I don't dig the new and spartan thing much at all (echoes of Fight Club).

I don't really have the cash for proper antiques, but I do love tatty second hand stuff. By far the best bit of junk I bought lately was a large solid pine welsh dresser from one of the smellier charity shops, cost me £40 (period gaudy orange varnish at no extra cost) I was well chuffed, so functional & useful - plus the cats like to use it as a climbing frame.

I was planning to strip it, or do something Jocasta-Inneseque with it, but the sheer nostalgia of that classic seventies toffee-apple coating has thus far made me resist any attempts to aesthetically 'improve' it.

Subject: RE: BS: Christmas? A rant
From: GUEST,Steamin' Willie
Date: 02 Dec 09 - 10:46 AM

Hadn't thought about the Pilgrim Fathers bit.

Yeah, we exported a set of stiff idiots and they infiltrated The Americas, eventually settling in Dumbfuckistan, where they multiplied. Sorry and all that. I enjoy visiting New England, (mainly to ski at Killington) and meet with some very nice people.

One of the Pilgrims, the Brewster fellow, comes from near me. When I look in a 10 mile radius, we have William Brewster and The Wesleys. Yet most people hereabouts are (fairly) rational. So it can't be something in the water then?

ME? I just enjoy drinking in The Pilgrim Fathers pub, knowing that the only building named for him is the sort he wouldn't have approved of.

Subject: RE: BS: Christmas? A rant
From: GUEST,Steamin' Willie
Date: 02 Dec 09 - 10:55 AM

Folkie Dave got a bit confused I reckon about my comment re Meadowhall. Yes, it does have an interchange etc.

Your original comment was disparaging of the place despite having never set foot inside.

A bit like me really. I am not a Christian yet unashamedly protest about religion affecting my life.   

Reminds me (trying to keep a Xmas angle here) of my youngest years ago claiming he didn't like brussel sprouts, yet he had never tried them.

Meadowhall. The cathedral you can enter without having to smile, be sanctimonious or claim it is the only cathedral.   Praise be!

Subject: RE: BS: Christmas? A rant
From: Jack Blandiver
Date: 02 Dec 09 - 10:59 AM

Puritans

We lived next door to the famous White Church in Lytham a couple of years back whilst selling our house in Durham; never went in it though until one day back in the summer. Puritans! Even stained glass celebrating Cromwell and Pilgrim Fathers. I offended the guide by falling about in hysterics that such anal-bollox should be celebrated with such earnest righteousness. Interesting building to live next door too though - it serves as a lighthouse for safe navigation along the Ribble estuary & - irony of irony - features on many Christmas cards by of the Traditionally Picturesque!

Ikea

All our book & CD shelves are from IKEA - likewise our coffee table - in a range called LEKSVIK - psuedo-rustica, but nice enough. We've also got a 5x5 Expedit which is so big it saved rebuilding the dividing wall knocked through by the previous owners. We still think of ourselves as essentially nomadic as neither of us has lived anywhere for longer than 6 years since leaving our respective childhood homes, so I'm always loathed to do anything too structural to a house. Though, as I say, I do wish I'd put the stove in back in the autumn. The Grotto Effect is due to a lifetime's meticulous curation of clutter as celebrated on the Cluttering - A Celebration thread - a natural reaction to all these de-cluttering threads that crop u rom time to time!

Subject: RE: BS: Christmas? A rant
From: Jack Blandiver
Date: 03 Dec 09 - 03:13 AM

"Echoes of the Festive Subway perhaps?"

As a dedicated follower of human & cultural resonance I find it highly significant that a few days after eating my first Festive Subway I read of Joy Division being fed on basically the same thing some 32 years earlier for the recording of their debut EP. I might add that whilst much early / unofficial / bootleg material from the Joy Division archive has passed through my hands in the last 31 years, it's not until we bought the Heart and Soul box set a few weeks back that I came to appreciate the genius of the tracks they recorded for An Ideal for Living. Such things are part of my cultural folklore; I find them invigorating on every possible level - religious / seasonal / ceremonial etc. - and find it highly significant when Subway start serving up what is basically Xmas Dinner Leftovers in sandwich form, thus confirming something truly wondrous and bringing back to the freezing, impoverished Xmasses of yore.

Subject: RE: BS: Christmas? A rant
From: Folkiedave
Date: 03 Dec 09 - 03:22 AM

Some of my best friends visit Meadowhall.

Subject: RE: BS: Christmas? A rant
From: GUEST,Steamin' Willie
Date: 03 Dec 09 - 04:19 AM

Aye, some of my best friends visit churches.

He says, trying to keep on thread.

Don't worry, Xmas will soon be over and the thread will wander off till this time next year, when we can all point out that;

Xmas is what you want it to be
or
Xmas is what you remember it to be
or
Xmas is a hang over of old Pagan rituals
or
Xmas is something to do with the little baby Jesus
or
Xmas is a marketing campaign for Mammon
or
Xmas is a marketing campaign for the little baby Jesus
or
Xmas is related to alcohol
or
Xmas is related to er... relatives

Anyway, measured the turkey, measured the new Aga and         bugger.

Knew I shouldn't have applied to become middle class.

Subject: RE: BS: Christmas? A rant
From: SINSULL
Date: 03 Dec 09 - 10:16 AM

After reading over this thread I started to watch TV ads just to see whether Christmas was missing. I usually hit the MUTE button before the screaming starts. Maybe Maine is the exception but Christmas sales are going on here everywhere. Remy's has forced me back to the MUTE button so my research is over.

Subject: RE: BS: Christmas? A rant
From: Ross Campbell
Date: 03 Dec 09 - 11:29 PM

IKEA - Christmas tins of Anna's Pepparkakor, surely!

Ross

Subject: RE: BS: Christmas? A rant
From: GUEST,Ivan
Date: 04 Dec 09 - 05:35 AM

I wrote a song a few years ago which seems to fit with some of the comments her. At the time the "Festive Lights" industry was going into overdrive and every third house in town seemed to be lit up like Blackpool Illuminations (or Las Vegas).

The Japanese part of the story that inspired the song is allegedly true.

Lost in Translation

It's Christmas time in Tokyo and the neon lights shine bright
There's a buzz in the air and the stores are full for it's nearly Xmas night
And the shop staff put the finishing touch to a tableau in the store
An artwork to capture Christmas like nothing has before
But somewhere in translation the message has been lost
For they're nailing Father Christmas to a cross
Yes somewhere in translation the message has been lost
And they're nailing Father Christmas to a cross.

In an English winter night the frost is hanging in the air
And it brings a shimmer to the flashing lights appearing everywhere
And there's no wise man could see a star for they all have been outshone
As each and every house it seems must outdo the neighbouring one
In the glare of illumination the message has been lost
And they're just nailing Father Christmas to a cross
In the glare of illumination the message has been lost
It's just like nailing Father Christmas to a cross.

Happy Yuletide, seasons greetings and, of course, joyous Noel
Here comes Santa with a sack of goodies and Rudolph's there as well
With Xboxes and DVDs to bring us holiday fun
There's a story about a baby too but I can't recall which one
For it's been two thousand years and more and the message has been lost
And we're just nailing Father Christmas to a cross
Yes it's been two thousand years and more and the message has been lost
Now we're all nailing Father Christmas to a cross
Yes we're just nailing Father Christmas to a cross.

Copyright Ivan McKeon 2005

Subject: RE: BS: Christmas? A rant
From: Dave MacKenzie
Date: 04 Dec 09 - 06:11 AM

Maybe the Japanese know more than you think.

As I mentioned above, Father Christmas is derived in part from Odin, "him dat hang on tree". (The Play o' de Lathie Odivere)

Subject: RE: BS: Christmas? A rant
From: Jack Blandiver
Date: 04 Dec 09 - 07:15 AM

Thanks for that, Ivan. A fine piece of work, although the truth of the Santa-on-a-Cross is open to some debate. There's a nice piece on it HERE which is worth a look. The folklore of it remains as profound as ever.

As I mentioned above, Father Christmas is derived in part from Odin,

Oh yeah? This has echoes of The Fall's Fantastic Life (just look at that picture of Lard / Marc Riley! What a star...) in which Mark E. Smith sings:

The Siberian mushroom Santa
Was in fact Rasputin's brother
And he didst walk round Whitechapel
To further the religion of forgiven sin murder
Fantastic lie!

Derived from Odin?? A fantastic (and indeed Frazerian) lie indeed!!

Subject: RE: BS: Christmas? A rant
From: Jack Blandiver
Date: 04 Dec 09 - 07:27 AM

PS:

At the time the "Festive Lights" industry was going into overdrive and every third house in town seemed to be lit up like Blackpool Illuminations (or Las Vegas).

Before moving to Lancashire we lived in the comparative wilds of The Deerness Valley in Durham where erstwhile colliery villages stripped of their raison d'être remain in bleak isolation from the amenities of the city with little by way of the bucolic picturesque to compensate, especially in the bleak midwinter. In such places "Festive Lights" take on a surreal almost menacing quality, something I tried to capture in my wee film Luminos which can be seen on YouTube:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gBKpUHFe1BU

Subject: RE: BS: Christmas? A rant
From: Folkiedave
Date: 05 Dec 09 - 03:56 AM

In the USA I was amazed by the number of houses that were lit up with complicated lighting covering all the usual themes. This including skiing.

Subject: RE: BS: Christmas? A rant
From: Jack Blandiver
Date: 05 Dec 09 - 04:00 AM

Things do seem a tad demure this year on the Luminos front; even those houses which were blazing last year are fielding but a single paltry santa. Could it be that we've passed the Golden Age of house illumination? Will earnest Folkies be writing songs about how good the old ones really were?

Subject: RE: BS: Christmas? A rant
From: Mrs.Duck
Date: 05 Dec 09 - 06:44 AM

IKEA - Glugg :)

Subject: RE: BS: Christmas? A rant
From: artbrooks
Date: 05 Dec 09 - 07:18 AM

Fa-la-la...urk

Subject: RE: BS: Christmas? A rant
From: Lizzie Cornish 1
Date: 05 Dec 09 - 07:35 AM

A Merry Albion Christmas

Subject: RE: BS: Christmas? A rant
From: ToeRag
Date: 05 Dec 09 - 08:00 AM

Under the impression that they scarce'ley furnish Christian cheer of mind or body to the multitude, a few of us are endeavouring to raise a fund to buy the poor some meat and drink, and means of warmth.
We chose this time, because' it is a time, of all others, when want is keenly felt and abundance rejoi'ces. What shall I put you down for.

Subject: RE: BS: Christmas? A rant
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 05 Dec 09 - 10:10 AM

I'll have about £250, please, ToeRag — ahould just about tide me over the weekend. Thanks.

Subject: RE: BS: Christmas? A rant
From: Ed T
Date: 05 Dec 09 - 11:13 AM

On Mall Santas:http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OZ6fdTU0qEo

Subject: RE: BS: Christmas? A rant
From: Jack Blandiver
Date: 06 Dec 09 - 11:57 AM

Though no great fan of No Roses, on which Shirkey Collins first coins the name Albion Country Band, I dearly love The Battle of the Field after which All Things Albion leave me rather cold to be honest, but such in English Folk Rock - IMHO possibly the worst music in the world, Mr Fox and Bright Phoebus notwithstanding.

At Xmas, folk-wise at least, I might reach for the Waterson Carthy Holy Heathens album, or better still the cassette Jim Eldon made with Billy Harrison (from which comes the tune Waterson Carthy use for While Shepherds...). Billy furnished Jim Eldon with an amazing tune for For Unto Us A Child Is Born but didn't have the words, so Jim assembled them himself from the Gospel of St. Matthew. To hear this truly astonishing & uplifting piece of work:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cSeEsS6-HGQ

If that doesn't get you in the Xmas spirit, nothing will!

Subject: RE: BS: Christmas? A rant
From: Jack Blandiver
Date: 06 Dec 09 - 11:58 AM

Shirkey Collins? Yeah, she was some gal that one...

Subject: RE: BS: Christmas? A rant
From: Little Hawk
Date: 06 Dec 09 - 10:58 PM

I'd be quite satisfied with a mere 400 quid and some shortbread, Toe Rag. ;-)

Subject: RE: BS: Christmas? A rant
From: Ruth Archer
Date: 07 Dec 09 - 03:04 AM

Sweeney: the version of While Shepherds Watched on Holy Heathens is one of the Sheffield Carols, surely? Did they get it from Jim Eldon?

Subject: RE: BS: Christmas? A rant
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 07 Dec 09 - 04:21 AM

One Yorks group I know always sing While Shepherds Watched to tune of On Ilkley Moor Baht 'At — fits beautifully.

Subject: RE: BS: Christmas? A rant
From: Ruth Archer
Date: 07 Dec 09 - 07:17 AM

MtheGM - it SHOULD work really well: I think I'm right i nsaying that the tune, Cranbrook, was actually written for While Shepherds Watched. Ilkley Moor came later and borrowed it! :)

Subject: RE: BS: Christmas? A rant
From: Jack Blandiver
Date: 07 Dec 09 - 10:01 AM

Sweeney: the version of While Shepherds Watched on Holy Heathens is one of the Sheffield Carols, surely? Did they get it from Jim Eldon?

The Holy Heathens CD booklet credits the tune source to Jim Eldon, who got it from Billy Harrison, though no mention is made of Billy here, unfortunately - nor yet of Sheffield. Don't know what gets sung in Sheffield - word is the Carol Scene is even more up itself than the regular folk scene if that's possible. I wonder if Jim still has copies of the Billy Harrison cassette? If so I urge you to check it out - it really is the real McCoy.

Subject: RE: BS: Christmas? A rant
From: Ruth Archer
Date: 07 Dec 09 - 10:32 AM

"word is the Carol Scene is even more up itself than the regular folk scene"

Ummm - in what way? You wedge yourself into the pub with about 150 other people, and you sing. I did it yesterday. You can buy a book of words if you want to, as many of the carols are not sung anywhere else, and no one looks at you askance if you use them. Pretty egalitarian, as these things go.

Subject: RE: BS: Christmas? A rant
From: Jack Blandiver
Date: 07 Dec 09 - 10:40 AM

Just stuff I've heard down the years from various old folkie friends who have been made to feel less than welcome. From what I've seen & heard of it myself it looks jolly enough fun.

Subject: RE: BS: Christmas? A rant
From: Ruth Archer
Date: 07 Dec 09 - 11:07 AM

Well, there can be certain modes of behaviour that develop around these things - there might be an element of "you can't sit there, that's so-and-so's chair", but I always think that when traditions really belong to a community, we "folkies" are basically tourists, and it's incumbent upon us to understand that and be respectful and try not to tread on anyone's toes. But having said all that, I can think of traditional events that are FAR more insular than Sheffield Carols. I've never observed anyone being made to feel unwelcome. But it is a pretty catch-as-catch-can experience, with everyone cheek-by-jowl, and the struggle to get to the bar or the loo can be a bit of a trial. If visitors go expecting lots of people sitting round singing politely as though they're in church, they might be in for a shock.

Re Holy Heathens: there are lots of versions of While Shepherds in the Sheffield tradition - i'm pretty sure that's one of them.

Wasn't there a post here a little while ago about the bloke who wrote Cranbrook? Or did I dream it?

Subject: RE: BS: Christmas? A rant
From: Folkiedave
Date: 07 Dec 09 - 11:35 AM

Just stuff I've heard down the years from various old folkie friends who have been made to feel less than welcome. From what I've seen & heard of it myself it looks jolly enough fun.

I have been going to Dungworth, most sings since 1973, so I now count as one of the old fogies.

We have welcomed dozens upon dozens of friends old and new over the years and from all parts of the Uk and the world. Three came back for soup and sandwiches yesterday afternoon, along with some others we had already invited. I do this most Sundays (unless we have previous invitations ourselves. They were total strangers at the start of the day. So I do resent the suggestion that people are unwelcoming.

However Barry Callaghan published a guide to etiquette. I quote from it "......but if ten strangers appear in the middle of the room taking up valuable singing space, they will quickly feel uncomfortable."

I have certainly seen this happen including this year(!!)(which is why it is in the guide). I just wonder if this is what your friends did perhaps?

http://www.folk-network.com/info/carols.html

The piece about etiquette is at the bottom.

Subject: RE: BS: Christmas? A rant
From: Folkiedave
Date: 07 Dec 09 - 11:36 AM

And I thought I saw a piece about Cranbrook too!!!!!

Subject: RE: BS: Christmas? A rant
From: Jack Blandiver
Date: 08 Dec 09 - 06:45 AM

What I heard was that the carols had been taken over by folk revivalists and was more about them than the local communities. Looking at that link that doesn't seem to be so much the case, though that was some time ago. As I say - looks like a lot of fun; just a shame it's so far away really.

*

The Billy Harrison / Jim Eldon cassette was on Music Traditions. Here's the review: http://www.mustrad.org.uk/reviews/harrison.htm

Subject: RE: BS: Christmas? A rant
From: Ruth Archer
Date: 08 Dec 09 - 07:33 AM

"What I heard was that the carols had been taken over by folk revivalists and was more about them than the local communities. Looking at that link that doesn't seem to be so much the case, though that was some time ago"

Ian Russell runs a carols festival every other year, with workshops that teach the carols. That is attended by a lot of revivalists, but it has also helped to re-introduce carols from the surviving manuscripts, some of which had previously fallen out of the repertoire. But that's only one day, every other year. The pubs that host carols are rammed for four or five Sundays leading up to Christmas, and it's a real mixure of locals and folk enthusiasts. (Sometimes the two things are not mutially exclusive.)

Subject: RE: BS: Christmas? A rant
From: Folkiedave
Date: 08 Dec 09 - 08:04 AM

I of course speak as a "not mutually exclusive". I can see the Royal Hotel from my house which must make me a local-ish. They can be a bit insular in Dungworth.

I was at a less well-known sing last night. There was a genuine song-carrier(or source singer)there; a number of folkies; at least three singers from the Sheffield Philharmonic Chorus; a member of a cathedral choir; some well-known folkies and their parents; a well-known folkie without his parents (!!) and about ten people who live within a mile of the pub who learnt the songs at childhood and they are now around 70.

Last year I interviewed a man from Ireland who had come over for the carol festival. The one thing he wanted to emphasise above all else was the sense of community. Take n notice of what people tell you, it is open to all with an interest in singing.

just a shame it's so far away really.

Unless you are in Australia - it isn't!!

Subject: RE: BS: Christmas? A rant
From: Folkiedave
Date: 09 Dec 09 - 05:36 AM

For anyone local there is a sing at the Nag's Head, Stacey Bank.

Up the Valley and on the left. Just before the Dungworth turn-off.

Subject: RE: BS: Christmas? A rant
From: Folkiedave
Date: 09 Dec 09 - 07:21 PM

And what a sing!!

Subject: RE: BS: Christmas? A rant
From: Jack Blandiver
Date: 10 Dec 09 - 04:54 AM

And another new one from The Great Man Himself, just to get you all in the festive mood...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yIhqfB0QAbk

Subject: RE: BS: Christmas? A rant
From: Dave MacKenzie
Date: 20 Dec 09 - 06:46 PM

Not much longer till the supermarkets start stocking food again rather than party titbits.