Guardian calls Ani DiFranco folk singer

Subject: RE: Guardian calls Ani DiFranco folk singer
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 12 Oct 07 - 09:27 AM

basically this is not about language.

its about power.

those who wish to reject, disparage, thwart, decry, discount.....anything that's not chundering up the same old dross from another age.

its a nasty bastards charter, with many signatories on mudcat.

they lack creativity themselves so they become organisers, critics, talented amateurs with a strong point of view.

Ani DiFranco, they will have to rage impotently at. But theres plenty of other nascent careers they can muck up; and they will, and they do.

Subject: RE: Guardian calls Ani DiFranco folk singer
From: Peace
Date: 12 Oct 07 - 09:51 AM

"Folksinger.   A singer of folk songs who has learned them through the folk process."


And once again songwriters are left out totally. Is that because the bloody songs just happened? Is it doubtful anyone actually wrote the songs? Sheesh.

Subject: RE: Guardian calls Ani DiFranco folk singer
From: Peace
Date: 12 Oct 07 - 10:11 AM

HOWever, despite being in six degrees of disagreement with the thread originator, I find Dick Greenhaus' remark cogent, and subsequently I'm in two degrees of agreement with Richard Bridge.

PT Barnum had people going to see the egress.

Subject: RE: Guardian calls Ani DiFranco folk singer
From: GUEST, Tom Bliss
Date: 12 Oct 07 - 10:14 AM

If there's one thing I'd like to see happen in this field, it would be for it to become The Done Thing for singers always to state the name of the person who wrote a song (if known - in which case they should darn-well have that infomation if they're planning to sing it) or, in the case of Anon, where it came from, as far back as they know.

That would help enormously.

Subject: RE: Guardian calls Ani DiFranco folk singer
From: Leadfingers
Date: 12 Oct 07 - 10:59 AM

And IF its a traditional song , which singer they got it from would be useful too Tom ! ALWAYS credit your source !

Subject: RE: Guardian calls Ani DiFranco folk singer
From: PeadarOfPortsmouth
Date: 12 Oct 07 - 11:00 AM

For some perspective, we may want to remember that the perceived erosion of the "folk" designation does have a practical benefit.

After rocking out in my teens and early twenties, I was finally able to appreciate acoustic rock, which led to borderline "folk" performers. And because of the broad use of the term "folk" here in the States, I was eventualy exposed to "traditional" music as well. The each progression got me primed for the next level.

In short, I never would have found Child's ballads if it weren't for performers who are broadly labeled as "folk" ... including Christy Moore, Jez Lowe, Richard Shindell, and, to a lesser degree, Ani DiFranco. (Say "heresy" all you want.)

As a relative newbie, I realize I have LOTS more to learn. Thank goodness that I found mentors who didn't chide me for my ignorance or dismiss me because my understanding of "folk" didn't meet their standards.

From my own experience, I view the broader use of the word "folk" as a good thing because it is an opportunity to engage the next generation who might be interested in learning more. Seems much more productive than simply flaming the Guardian.

Peter

Subject: RE: Guardian calls Ani DiFranco folk singer
From: GUEST, Tom Bliss
Date: 12 Oct 07 - 11:08 AM

Yes - I'll go along with that too. One door closes, another opens, my glass is half full - well it will be as soon as the sun's over the yardarm

Subject: RE: Guardian calls Ani DiFranco folk singer
From: Wesley S
Date: 12 Oct 07 - 11:09 AM

Richard - I would tend to agree with your definition of a folk song. However - to the public at large anyone who stands up with an acoustic guitar is a folk singer. And if you really did write to the editor and say "Today you report that Ani DiFranco is a folk singer. Your ignorance seems to know no bounds." Then you missed the boat. You had an opportunity to educate and instead you chose to insult. Someone said that you should never pick a fight with someone who buys newsprint by the barrel. With fans like you - folk music doesn't need any enemies.

Subject: RE: Guardian calls Ani DiFranco folk singer
From: Rog Peek
Date: 12 Oct 07 - 11:17 AM

Who cares what it's called, I guess it's a bit like 'Art', to my mind there's an awful lot of snobbery, an opportunity to look down the nose at something that doesn't quite conform. The traditional music of today must have been 'pop' music once, when it changed from one to the other, who knows? If we don't define it 'properly', will it all disappear in a puff of smoke? I doubt it.

Take a leaf out of Louis Armstrong's book, he said "All music is folk music, I ain't never heard no horse sing a song"

Rog

Subject: RE: Guardian calls Ani DiFranco folk singer
From: frogprince
Date: 12 Oct 07 - 11:36 AM

Folk song/music. 1954 definition.
Folksinger.   A singer of folk songs who has learned them through the folk process.
Folksong-singer. A singer of folksongs who has learned them in any other way.

So what does that distinction actually mean, in practice? Doesn't it sorta imply that "folksinger" should be reserved, at least for the most part, for blind singers who don't read braille?

Subject: RE: Guardian calls Ani DiFranco folk singer
From: GUEST,Tom Bliss
Date: 12 Oct 07 - 11:36 AM

If we don't label things properly we loose the ability to track them - and that can have unforeseen consequences.

Have you ever heard of something called change management Rog?

If programmers make independent changes to a programme without keeping track of who did what when and why, chaos soon ensues.

If we allow the various traditional tributaries which flow into folk music to get merged into one happy clappy soup without noting where they came from as they trickled in, we'll loose the ability to track back upstream - which would be a massive shame (and crime in my opinion) as there is so much yet to (re)discover.

Call the big pot folk by all means. But use the other phases carefully and as accurately as you can - and always ALWAYS attribute (indeed Leadfingers)!

It's like plants. If we forget which flowers produced which chemicals for which drugs we'll soon lose the motherlode.

Where's Diane when you need her (and why didn't you come to Sharps D)?

Subject: RE: Guardian calls Ani DiFranco folk singer
From: Wesley S
Date: 12 Oct 07 - 11:39 AM

It means that there are only about 5 or 6 "folksingers" left in the world. And they will be dead in the next few years. Any of us who learn songs from CD's will need to find a new name for what we do. Science will have killed all the folksingers.

Subject: RE: Guardian calls Ani DiFranco folk singer
From: Peace
Date: 12 Oct 07 - 11:40 AM

"In short, I never would have found Child's ballads if it weren't for performers who are broadly labeled as "folk" ... including Christy Moore, Jez Lowe, Richard Shindell, and, to a lesser degree, Ani DiFranco. (Say "heresy" all you want.)"

It was the same but opposite for me, Peadar. Now I find my song writing going more to a 'rockish' sound--despite still using an accoustic. I still reach back now and then to my 'roots' days, and I still revere the old songs--not that I'm any kind of authority on it all. I guess it's very simple for me. I like what I like and I seldom care what 'genre' a song is from. If it works for me, well and good.

Subject: RE: Guardian calls Ani DiFranco folk singer
From: WFDU - Ron Olesko
Date: 12 Oct 07 - 11:43 AM

"You had an opportunity to educate and instead you chose to insult. "

Bingo!   That sums up the problem this community has.

We seem to spend more time with geeky arguements about semantics rather than spreading the gospel about the beauty and relevance of the music. It is little wonder that the public at large has a negative image of the particpants in this music.

No one is saying that you have to embrace Ani DiFranco. I'm not a big fan either, I think her music is largely inaccessible to casual listeners but I do see her influences and connections to the changing tradition. Yes, traditions do change. They are meant to be alive, not museum pieces. Let them call her a folksinger, it won't hurt any of us.

At the same time, I honestly do see the concern of people like Dick Greenhouse and Richard Bridges and I tend to agree with them - to a point.    If we are going to define folk, then do we need additional levels - sea chanties, Appalchian ballads, dance tunes, cowboy songs, coal mining songs, spirituals, etc? Do we really need to compartmentalize our music to such an extent in order to reach the public?   Supposing that Cecil Sharp came across a family of tuba playing Applachians during his travels - would he dismiss the music even if it met all the other criteria?   Collectors gather songs that live through the source - and modern times have changed the way we all live, and the way we create our art.

Subject: RE: Guardian calls Ani DiFranco folk singer
From: Peace
Date: 12 Oct 07 - 11:45 AM

"Collectors gather songs that live through the source - and modern times have changed the way we all live, and the way we create our art."

That, sir, is a brilliant statement.

Subject: RE: Guardian calls Ani DiFranco folk singer
From: WFDU - Ron Olesko
Date: 12 Oct 07 - 11:50 AM

"If we allow the various traditional tributaries which flow into folk music to get merged into one happy clappy soup without noting where they came from as they trickled in, we'll loose the ability to track back upstream - which would be a massive shame (and crime in my opinion) as there is so much yet to (re)discover."


If were a real river, and we chose to change the flow of the tributaries, we are altering the course of nature and adding our own effect to the ecosystem. Now, as in the case of New Orleans, you can build levees to preserve the city - that is a choice and you weigh the cost.

I've always felt that the study of folklore should be from an observer point of view, not decided by the collector. Did we not hear complaints lodged against the Lomaxes, Child, Sharp and others for making their own input?   Would we be doing the same by ignoring what the FOLK are doing today?

I do agree with Tom Bliss about losing the ability to track changes, but I don't think there is danger in that.   Certainly a note in the Guardian doesn't stop the collectors and musicologists from doing their work.

Subject: RE: Guardian calls Ani DiFranco folk singer
From: Grab
Date: 12 Oct 07 - 11:56 AM

Gay, 1954 definition
Happy

Gay, 2007 definition
Homosexual

And Richard, you're relying on a definition from an organisation which ceased to promote that definition, and which is now called the International Council for Traditional Music. This might be a hint as to what the rest of the world thinks, including other people involved in folk music.

Graham.

Subject: RE: Guardian calls Ani DiFranco folk singer
From: GUEST,Mr Fairplay
Date: 12 Oct 07 - 12:08 PM

..so what then did Ms DiFranco do to upset the Guardian enough
to deserve such a cruel & humiliating insult ?

Subject: RE: Guardian calls Ani DiFranco folk singer
From: GUEST,Tom Bliss
Date: 12 Oct 07 - 12:24 PM

Indeed. Calling Ms DiFranco a folksinger is not dangerous. Failing to attribute accurately, however, is. And bad manners.

We don't need to label all sub-genres all the time, but we should know when it would be helpful do so, and then do it as accurately as we can.

Banging on that folk still only means trad just holds everything and everyone back.

Subject: RE: Guardian calls Ani DiFranco folk singer
From: Mr Happy
Date: 12 Oct 07 - 01:25 PM

Like some others above, I'd never heard of her, but disliking remaining ignorant about stuff had a peek here: http://uk.youtube.com/watch?v=_9VHpdmIrFM


Seems ok to me, her stuff's much like lots thats done in sinarounds all over the place.

Subject: RE: Guardian calls Ani DiFranco folk singer
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 12 Oct 07 - 02:58 PM

Try getting the Guardian to publish a long letter. Then you will understand why I wrote a short one.

Ignorance does not become knowlege by being commonplace.

An newspaper columnist ought to try to know something of his topic. Would you send Jordan to interview a nuclear physicist?

If folksingers (or "source" singers) are extinct or nearly so, that does not make others into folk singers.

A starling is not a Dodo.

Subject: RE: Guardian calls Ani DiFranco folk singer
From: Ian Burdon
Date: 12 Oct 07 - 03:02 PM

Ron Olesko wrote:

"Supposing that Cecil Sharp came across a family of tuba playing Applachians during his travels - would he dismiss the music even if it met all the other criteria?   Collectors gather songs that live through the source - and modern times have changed the way we all live, and the way we create our art."

Actually this did happen - it happened with (white) blues collectors who went in search of the "authentic" and disregarded much that was also in the repetoire of the players. This included chunks of jazz which didn't fit with the conception of what the unsophisticated should be playing and also cross-overs with "white" music - Muddy Waters' fondness for Lawrence Whelk wasn't something which was made a great deal of for example.

On a similar them I got this in a letter a while back from an acquaintance -

"I recall an evening with Belle and Sara Stewart, and Sara's son Ian, singing Hank Williams songs and other country hits. Sara's husband had been a C&W singer, and they were so disappointed that all across America the only people they met were "folk" fans who wanted to sing old Scots ballads........"

Ian

Subject: RE: Guardian calls Ani DiFranco folk singer
From: WFDU - Ron Olesko
Date: 12 Oct 07 - 03:09 PM

"it happened with (white) blues collectors who went in search of the "authentic" and disregarded much that was also in the repetoire of the players. This included chunks of jazz which didn't fit with the conception of what the unsophisticated should be playing and also cross-overs with "white" music"

So then I guess the "ignorance" that Richard spoke of earlier was really misplaced. It looks like this whole falacy of traditional folk music has been perpetuate by some really ignorant people.

Subject: RE: Guardian calls Ani DiFranco folk singer
From: PeadarOfPortsmouth
Date: 12 Oct 07 - 03:21 PM

Richard, with respect:

First, you wrote an insult to the paper, not a letter.

Second, if the nuance between "folk singer" and "folksong singer" can generate a discussion on Mudcat, why on Earth would you expect a newspaper columnist to make that distinction?

As far as I can tell from this thread, broadly labeling DiFranco as a "folk singer" is relatively appropriate in the modern use of the term. So the reporter/columnist DID know "something" of the topic.

Newspapers are for the general public and are not journals aimed at music historians...so don't get your knickers in a twist because a distinction wasn't made to the level you would like. It's not good for your blood pressure.

Evolution is going to happen -- whether it's the folk tradition, language, or birds. I guess I'd rather be a flying starling than a dead dodo.

Peter

Subject: RE: Guardian calls Ani DiFranco folk singer
From: PeadarOfPortsmouth
Date: 12 Oct 07 - 03:30 PM

And I'm truly curious...

I have learned songs from other singers at sessions, and I have learned songs from recordings. I have learned tunes by playing along, week after week, until it sinks in, while I've looked at the sheet music for others.

So what label would you throw on me? Is the folk tradition not pure enough because of the "other" sources?

Peter

Subject: RE: Guardian calls Ani DiFranco folk singer
From: Ian Burdon
Date: 12 Oct 07 - 03:39 PM

We're drifting away a bit from Ani DiFranco and there is always the distant thunder of hooves in discussions like this. In essence I suppose I think that categorising can be useful for what we might call archiving and analytical purposes (as suggested earlier in the thread), and it is certainly the dominant theme for marketing purposes.   But musicians will - and listeners should - recognise quality where they find it and not bother whatever the "label".   

I grew up in the West of Scotland. I well remember realising at a young age that at house parties when we were passing songs around, the songs were more likely to be drawn from the repertoire of Jim Reeves than the "folk" cannon and songs learned within the family were likely to come from music hall or vaudeville or WW2 radio dance band era songs. The fact that I was aware of "traditional music" through my parents made me unusual. There is a discontinuity between "folk music" and music which folk sing/sang. No big deal and certainly no new insights here, just something of which I try and remind myself from time to time.

Ian

Subject: RE: Guardian calls Ani DiFranco folk singer
From: skipy
Date: 12 Oct 07 - 04:06 PM

O/k time wise I have only read about 1/3 of the above posts, I'm NOT, REALLY NOT going to get into the "what is folk music row"!
However if someone in my village likes her work & therefore becomes less scathing of the words "folk music" & attends one of my charity concerts because of that, then I will be over the moonI Hopefully having risked it, they will be exposed to what "we" call "folk music", just maybe they will come back. If they don't like what we put on then we have lost nothing.
I have never heard of her, so it's off to Youtube now!
Skipy
Listening to Seth Lakeman, wonderful, but is it folk?
I think so, I love his work.

Subject: RE: Guardian calls Ani DiFranco folk singer
From: Peace
Date: 12 Oct 07 - 04:10 PM

"A starling is not a Dodo."

Prove it!

Subject: RE: Guardian calls Ani DiFranco folk singer
From: skipy
Date: 12 Oct 07 - 04:15 PM

O/K, been on youtube, not my cup of tea, talented however, "folk"? not for me to say.
What would I know anyway.
Skipy
The jury is out.

Subject: RE: Guardian calls Ani DiFranco folk singer
From: WFDU - Ron Olesko
Date: 12 Oct 07 - 04:15 PM

Sort of reminds me of the whole controversy about "white chocolate". There is no cocoa solids or chocolate liquor used in the manufacture of white chocolate. It taste different, and not everyone likes it. Yet there is a certain mouth feel that reminds you of traditional chocolate.   There are some countries that won't allow it to be called "white chocolate".   Yet many people enjoy the taste, and there is little danger of the major chocolate companies going out of business or being forgotten.

Eat and let eat.

Subject: RE: Guardian calls Ani DiFranco folk singer
From: PeadarOfPortsmouth
Date: 12 Oct 07 - 04:23 PM

mmmmm...chocolate

Subject: RE: Guardian calls Ani DiFranco folk singer
From: GUEST, Tom Bliss
Date: 12 Oct 07 - 05:11 PM

"And I'm truly curious...

I have learned songs from other singers at sessions, and I have learned songs from recordings. I have learned tunes by playing along, week after week, until it sinks in, while I've looked at the sheet music for others.

So what label would you throw on me? Is the folk tradition not pure enough because of the "other" sources? "

Ahem - in a word, yes. But it has nothing to do with purity, or sanctity, or quality - just the potential for future study.

You see Peter - as we've said above; the terms we typically use to explain the differences between Trad and trad (see?) are hopelessly inadequate and confusing because of their overlapping definitions and terminology.

But one fact IS irrefutable (or should be):

Whatever words we choose to use, we must ALWAYS make a clear distinction betwen songs and processes from the pre-recording, pre-massmedia era, and songs and processes which HAVE been informed by the mass media.

Why? Because even though we know that the pre-collection aural/oral Tradition was never in fact as it's often, (through rose-tinted pub windows) presented to be (because the mouth-to-ear-to-mouth process was always tainted by print, professionalism and pedants) the transmission of songs was in those times slow enough to be trackable.

Geography was relevant. Social status was relavant. Tribe was relevant. And from these traces, which we might call the 'context' of a song, we can learn invaluable information about all manner of things historical.

Think about Time Team. They throw away the top layer of soil because it's too jumbled by ploughing and frost heave to provide anything other than the artefacts themselves (should any have risen to the surface). There is no contextual information. But below about three feet, every layer of soil has its relevance. As do the ways in which the artifacts happen to be grouped.

It's the same with traditional song. Context matters.

Knowing that a song dates back into this pre-media period is crucial. Because in that period we can extrapolate all sorts of interesting data by comparing versions, by examining lyrics and tunes, by looking for connections with other writings of the (assumed) period etc.

We can't do that with post-mass-media songs. Well we can - but it's an entirely different study.

There's nothing wrong with the mass media, and with sharing old material by modern means. We just need to keep the 'artefact' tag attached to it, so we know where to go looking for this extra data - should anyone want to investigate at any future point.

Like the landed gentry - we are only temporary custodians of our heritage.

Subject: RE: Guardian calls Ani DiFranco folk singer
From: oldhippie
Date: 12 Oct 07 - 05:41 PM

Or, as her bio on her homepage states:


As impressive as her recorded output may be, there's no substitute for a DiFranco live performance. As relevant and compelling today as the young firebrand was when she first burst on the scene, this self-described "little folksinger" continues to galvanize audiences, packing joints like Carnegie Hall and amphitheaters around the world, though she has the knack of making each venue she plays feel as cozy as a living room and as sweaty as a neighborhood dive.

Subject: RE: Guardian calls Ani DiFranco folk singer
From: Grab
Date: 12 Oct 07 - 07:26 PM

A starling is not a Dodo.

Absolutely.

One is dead as a doornail and survives only as stuffed specimens nailed to perches. It occupied a particular niche in time and location, and found itself unable to adapt to a changing environment when competition arose for resources, and could not produce enough young to survive. So sad. Meanwhile one is alive and squawking happily.

And Darwin's finches, for a further bird example, survive today because they have evolved to meet each new environmental situation, producing various new sub-species to fill particular niches and cross-fertilising to maintain the genetic strength of the wider group.

Bottom line is adapt or die. Trying to nail your music back to a 50-year-ago definition, regardless of developments since then, can only result in it achieving dodo-hood.

Graham.

Subject: RE: Guardian calls Ani DiFranco folk singer
From: Peace
Date: 12 Oct 07 - 07:35 PM

Well, can they both still be birds?

Subject: RE: Guardian calls Ani DiFranco folk singer
From: Art Thieme
Date: 12 Oct 07 - 07:40 PM

refresh


That would be refreshing.

Subject: RE: Guardian calls Ani DiFranco folk singer
From: GUEST, TB
Date: 12 Oct 07 - 07:55 PM

"Bottom line is adapt or die"

Yes. If the music hadn't been adapted it might well have died by now - but it didn't, so we'll never know.

The only thing to remember is that folk/trad/source/ancient/anon song is more than just music and words. It's folklore, and history, and identity, and politics and, and and.

Just leave the door open when you raid the larder ok?

It's simple. Say where you found it, and use words that no-one will misunderstand.

Subject: RE: Guardian calls Ani DiFranco folk singer
From: greg stephens
Date: 13 Oct 07 - 04:08 AM

Grab:the 50-year old definition,not a bad one I'd have thought, actually included adapting as part of the definition. Of course folk music adapts, that is what makes it folk music. The question at issue here seems to be whether it has adapted into Ani DiFranco, or not.Finches evolve, and presumably in time could evolve into elephants. But they are not famous for it so far.

Subject: RE: Guardian calls Ani DiFranco folk singer
From: GUEST,TB
Date: 13 Oct 07 - 04:15 AM

Greg, the definition (the contents of the tin) hasn't changed. Only the meaning of one of the words used on the label - hence a new label to describe the same old contents.

Not the other way round!

Subject: RE: Guardian calls Ani DiFranco folk singer
From: Rog Peek
Date: 13 Oct 07 - 05:29 AM


Utah Phillips and Ani DiFranco

Subject: RE: Guardian calls Ani DiFranco folk singer
From: dick greenhaus
Date: 13 Oct 07 - 11:42 AM

Putting aside, for the moment, the "oral tradition" aspect of folk song, there's still a recognizable--if difficult to define--idiom that's been generally accepted as "folk song". Some singer-songwriters tend to produce material that's in that idiom--Art Thieme, Woody Guthrie, Shel Silverstein (at times), Steve Gillette, Pete Seeger, Ewan MacColl, to name a few. Others tend to stretch the limits of that idiom--Martin Carthy, Fairport Convention etc. but retain some clear ties to it. And still others have departed so far from it that it's difficult to justify their inclusion in the designation.
    I don't care what horses do or don't sing.

Subject: RE: Guardian calls Ani DiFranco folk singer
From: GUEST,Tom Bliss
Date: 13 Oct 07 - 12:11 PM

Let's try putting this another way.

It's not that the 54 definition has been stretched to include new works, styles or processes.

The 54 definition used the word ''folk' to describe a particular catalogue of material which had been created in a quite specific way. That process is now (almost) defunct, thanks to recordings and the mass media, the arrival of which has effectively closed that archive. It cannot therefore be changed or added to. It exists. We can take things out and play with them, but that's all, (though we can find more existing pre-collection material if we're very lucky).

Meanwhile a new, separate archive is being built up - all the way to Ani DiF. New songs, new traditions, new versions and adaptations. All linking back to the closed archive, but fundamentally different because of the massively different processes which have informed their making.

Rightly or wrongly the definition of the word Folk has been allowed to grow, to include BOTH these calatogues. But this does not dilute the older archive - the one they were defining in 54. And it doesn't threaten that definition, or that catalogue, or our access to that calalogue.

It's like the word Hoover.

When the success of that company's machine resulted in all suction-based floor cleaning machines being called Hoovers, it didn't mean that all the other brands had been bought by Hoover and were being made in their factory.

All that had happened was that a specific word had become a generic word.

It did mean, of course that if you really DID want to refer to a macnine actually made by the Hoover company, you had to find a new way to do so - saying Hoover was no longer specific enough.

It did Hoover no harm, neither did it damage vacuum cleaner sales for other companies.

So let's have no more of this suggestion that the change in the use of the word Folk means we now have to include post-revival versions and new works in the 54 definition.

If that's what people think is happening no wonder they get earated.

But it's absolutely not, and it cannot ever be.

Subject: RE: Guardian calls Ani DiFranco folk singer
From: Anne Lister
Date: 13 Oct 07 - 06:02 PM

I've become increasingly aware on sites such as MySpace that there are all kinds of sub-genres which I had never met before. Such as acid folk and psychedelic folk. When I've had a brief listen to their MySpace offerings I've been at a total loss to work out why the F word is applied to their music at all - but it is. I've given up worrying about it, and wondering why they feel they can use the word in such a cavalier manner when I don't feel I can about my own music... but there it is. Words, definitions and categories (oh, go on then, GENRES) change all the time. People need to put tags on things so they know which box to put them into. Me, I'd be happy to be just plain ole music, but there we are. I've adopted the circumlocution of "performs mostly on the folk circuit" to avoid calling myself a folksinger or a writer of folksongs, but maybe I should just get on with it.
As has been said by others, "folk" is almost as meaningless a descriptor as "celtic". I'm not going to lose any sleep over it - but, as Tom says, I think we need to remember to credit where songs or ideas came from, if we know.

Anne

Subject: RE: Guardian calls Ani DiFranco folk singer
From: Art Thieme
Date: 13 Oct 07 - 10:01 PM

Anne,
As you intimate, 'twas a time when the word "folk" meant quite q bit to many of us here. It still means those things to some of us. As Utah Phillips says so often, "The past didn't go anywhere!!"

Really, it's still here, waiting for you to find it. If you sweep the scum of the present off the top of the pond, it will be much easier to look into the depths where the nuggets that were found by the great collectors are readily available. And we can marvel at their fine state of preservation...

Art Thieme

Subject: RE: Guardian calls Ani DiFranco folk singer
From: Peace
Date: 13 Oct 07 - 10:12 PM

That is so true, Art. And at the same time we should search the stuff floating on the pond lest we throw away good and meaningful songs simply because they co-exist with much of what passes for music but doesn't meet the quality test.

Subject: RE: Guardian calls Ani DiFranco folk singer
From: Peace
Date: 13 Oct 07 - 10:17 PM

PS, the quality test is one each person has to do for him or herself. Subjective for sure, but then what in the arts isn't.

Subject: RE: Guardian calls Ani DiFranco folk singer
From: Giant Folk Eyeball (inactive)
Date: 14 Oct 07 - 05:04 AM

Is it not simply the case that the term 'folk music' has changed and evolved over time, much in the same way as the term 'rock music' has? In my opinion, both terms have become so broad and inclusive as to lose any tangible meaning. If you describe a particular performer to me as a folk singer, in 2007 I have no idea what that means. In order for me to get a rough idea what they sound like, you'd have to be more specific: a singer of (insert country/region) tradtional music; an acoustic rock singer songwriter; an acid folk collective; a folk rock band; and so on and so forth.

Meanwhile, outside of the world of folk clubs, folk forums etc, there are plenty of people playing and listening to music they would define as folk music but would not be recognised as such by many of the users of forums like this, including those who slag off traditional music as too narrow a genre. In Manchester, nights like the Red Deer Club, Hedge and others, featuring largely unsigned, local, acoustic acts are getting decent crowds, most of whom have little crossover with the established folk scene. Personally I think this is great. I also don't believe this threatens traditional music in any way - though it may threaten some peoples' conceptions of 'folk music'...

Never liked that Louis Armstrong quote, though... the logic of it means that we'd have to accept that the Spice Girls and Status Quo are folk bands.

Cheers

Nigel

Subject: RE: Guardian calls Ani DiFranco folk singer
From: Anne Lister
Date: 14 Oct 07 - 09:26 AM

Yes, Nigel, that's pretty much where I was headed with what I wrote. The problem with "folk" is that it really does mean all kinds of things to all kinds of people, and although I have my own idea of what it means and clearly so do others on this thread it's not necessarily a globally accepted notion, nor do we necessarily agre with each other even on this forum. There are also many positive and negative connotations, depending on the experiences and prejudices of the listener.
Which is why I'm not losing any sleep over it all, but I still stumble over trying to tell people what kind of music I play. My best moment was with a class of kids in an inner London school ..."Oh good," said one tactful child. "I like folk music. Except I can't remember ... is it fast or slow?"

Anne

Subject: RE: Guardian calls Ani DiFranco folk singer
From: Leadfingers
Date: 14 Oct 07 - 09:43 AM

An old mate of mine used to turn up at the folk Club and do some REALLY good songs , with acostic guitar ! When asked about his source , he would say Chumbawumba , or some other 'Not' folk band ! Good songs can work out of their original environment !!

Subject: RE: Guardian calls Ani DiFranco folk singer
From: GUEST,Bob Ryszkiewicz
Date: 14 Oct 07 - 12:21 PM

Forgive them Ani, for they no not what they do...