BS: Islamic terrorists arrested in Ontario

Subject: BS: Islamic terrorists arrested in Ontario
From: C. Ham
Date: 03 Jun 06 - 12:36 PM

Big story from Ontario today on the arrest of a ring of 17 Islamic terrorists who were planning major bomb attacks there.

BBC story

MSNBC story

Bloomberg story

article with list of terrorist suspects


Canadian prime minister makes statement

Subject: RE: BS: Islamic terrorists arrested in Ontario
From: pdq
Date: 03 Jun 06 - 12:42 PM

How odd. I just heard this story on my local radio station, an ABC affiliate. There was absolutely no mention of race, religion or country of origin of the suspects. You don't suppose the regular network news in the US is a bit 'doctored' do you?

Subject: RE: BS: Islamic terrorists arrested in Ontario
From: bobad
Date: 03 Jun 06 - 12:56 PM

Three tonnes of ammonium nitrate could have done serious damage in downtown Toronto considering that one ton was used against the Murragh building in Oklahoma.

Subject: RE: BS: Islamic terrorists arrested in Ontario
From: Jeri
Date: 03 Jun 06 - 12:58 PM

There isn't any mention of race or religion in the articles GUEST linked to either. I'd guess the 'Islamic' bit was something he read into it, although they were clearly inspired by other terrorists, likely Islamic extremists.

Subject: RE: BS: Islamic terrorists arrested in Ontario
From: C. Ham
Date: 03 Jun 06 - 01:12 PM

There isn't any mention of race or religion in the articles GUEST linked to either. I'd guess the 'Islamic' bit was something he read into it, although they were clearly inspired by other terrorists, likely Islamic Extremists.

Geri,

My Mudcat name is not GUEST, it is C. Ham. Although I initially posted here as a guest, I have been posting as a Mudcat member, in both music and BS threads, for about two months.

I have referred to them as "Islamic terrorists" because that is how they have been describded on both of the Canadian TV news networks (CBC Newsworld and CTV Newsnet) by representatives of the RCMP and Ontario police.

Furthermore, several of the articles mention that the Ontario terrorists were "inspired by al-Qaeda." And if you check the link with the list of the terrorists, they all have Islamic names.

Subject: RE: BS: Islamic terrorists arrested in Ontario
From: GUEST
Date: 03 Jun 06 - 01:31 PM

Jeri, please read as is presented. And where did you see "Islamic Extremists" indicated?

Subject: RE: BS: Islamic terrorists arrested in Ontario
From: Jeri
Date: 03 Jun 06 - 01:36 PM

C Ham, my apology for calling you 'GUEST'. Sometimes it's hard for me to keep up, but I'll make sure I pay better attention in future.

MSNBC has reported that most of the suspects are Canadian citizens. I'm sure more information will come out as this progresses, but whatever their religion, I'm very glad they were caught before they killed anyone. Apparently the investigation, but Canadian and US authorities, has be going since last fall.

Subject: RE: BS: Islamic terrorists arrested in Ontario
From: CarolC
Date: 03 Jun 06 - 01:46 PM

What do you consider to be particularly "Islamic" about the name - "Saad Khalid", C-Ham?

Subject: RE: BS: Islamic terrorists arrested in Ontario
From: GUEST
Date: 03 Jun 06 - 01:49 PM

TARGET: CANADA

1998 "You cannot stop us." A World Islamic Front letter is sent to police advising that a biological and chemical weapons attack would be launched in the Montreal subway system. A group of Algerians is arrested and deported.

1999 "In the summer of 1999, Samir Ait Mohamed and Ahmed Ressam discussed placing explosives in the Outremont suburb of Montreal because it was a predominantly Jewish neighborhood," the FBI says.

[e-mail]

2001 "Special file for our brother Abu Bakr al-Albani on the nature of his mission. First, the mission. Gather information on ... the possibility of obtaining explosive devices inside Canada." -- August 2001 e-mail found on al-Qaeda computer in Kabul.

2001 "In the lead-up and immediate aftermath to 9/11... there was a conspiracy of eight individuals who had designs to execute an act of serious violence in the Toronto area," Jack Hooper, CSIS Deputy Director of Operations, states.

2002 "As you kill, you will be killed." -- Osama bin Laden in an audiotaped speech that threatened Canada.

2004 "Human Targets: We must target and kill the Jews and the Christians.... The grades of importance are as follows: Americans, British, Spaniards, Australians, Canadians, Italians," instructs Al Battar, an al-Qaeda training manual.

2005 "And now you will get news of what hurts you." A jihadists video production posted on the Internet repeats bin Laden's 2002 threat to Canada.

2006 "We have a bifurcated threat at this point -- the threat that comes to Canada from the outside as well as a homegrown threat, and the homegrown variants look to Canada to execute their targeting," Mr. Hooper warns.

Subject: RE: BS: Islamic terrorists arrested in Ontario
From: GUEST
Date: 03 Jun 06 - 01:55 PM

"The investigation, which McDonell said involved more than 400 persons, also included Canada's intelligence agency, the Canada Security and Intelligence Agency.

Luc Portelance, assistant director of operations for CSIS, said the arrested men "are Canadian residents from a variety of backgrounds. For various reasons, they appear to become adherents of virulent ideology inspired by al-Qaeda." But McDonell later suggested investigators had found no direct connection with al-Qaeda."

Subject: RE: BS: Islamic terrorists arrested in Ontario
From: C. Ham
Date: 03 Jun 06 - 02:03 PM

What do you consider to be particularly "Islamic" about the name - "Saad Khalid", C-Ham?

Well, CarolC, perhaps you're right, and the name is not particularly Islamic. Both "Saad" and "Khalid" are Arabic names and I'm well aware that not all Arabs are Islamic. Then again, I have a friend whose name is "Khalid," who is a Moslem, but is not of Arabic origin. He was born in Pakistan.

Subject: RE: BS: Islamic terrorists arrested in Ontario
From: GUEST
Date: 03 Jun 06 - 02:05 PM

Yes. Maybe they are born-again Christians.

Subject: RE: BS: Islamic terrorists arrested in Ontario
From: GUEST
Date: 03 Jun 06 - 02:19 PM

C. Ham,

Don't waste your time arguing with Carol C. If you listen to her, all the terrorism in the world is the fault of Israel and America.

Subject: RE: BS: Islamic terrorists arrested in Ontario
From: Jeri
Date: 03 Jun 06 - 02:31 PM

From this Washington Post article

"Luc Portelance, assistant director of operations for CSIS, said the arrested men "are Canadian residents from a variety of backgrounds. For various reasons, they appear to become adherents of virulent ideology inspired by al-Qaeda." But McDonell later suggested investigators had found no direct connection with al-Qaeda."

So GUEST (and I checked that), al Qaeda is an Islamic extremist group. I discovered the supposed link because I read the articles C. Ham linked to.

Subject: RE: BS: Islamic terrorists arrested in Ontario
From: Jeri
Date: 03 Jun 06 - 02:36 PM

Well, GUEST of 1:55 already posted that quote, so mine was redundant. Never mind...

Subject: RE: BS: Islamic terrorists arrested in Ontario
From: Amos
Date: 03 Jun 06 - 02:39 PM

Guest:

Trying to reduce a discussion like this one to a game of personalities and blame on people for speaking their minds is not only stupid, it's oppressive. Especially when done from the nebulous miasma of anonymity.

I am sure you can do better than that.

A

Subject: RE: BS: Islamic terrorists arrested in Ontario
From: dianavan
Date: 03 Jun 06 - 03:24 PM

"...officials stressed there's no direct link between those charged to the terrorist network." Thats from an article listed in the first post.

Any attempt to categorize the people arrested according to ethnic or religious group is premature. We do know that they were either Canadian citizens or Residents. If they are guilty of planning a terrorist attack, they were planning to strike their own country. Thats a very serious allegation.

I'm glad they interrupted their plans but, as their lawyer indicated, the net may have been cast too widely. We will see.

Subject: RE: BS: Islamic terrorists arrested in Ontario
From: GUEST
Date: 03 Jun 06 - 03:35 PM

Amos, I am not sure whty Guest you are referring nor does it really matter. With your nose stuck in the 'book of nonessential' words, I doubt if you take enough time to properly read these posts.
I shall never rise to your lofty position of whatever it is you ascribe to. And I thank my God for that. And, in this case, it is you that is being oppressive.

Jeri, I have never, ever heard al Qaeda described as "an Islamic Extremist group". Even they have the common sense to call themselves a terriost group. I still do not find where you saw 'your' phrase. You are right in there with CarolC et. al. when it comes to minimizing the actions of these people, and as another Guest said, it is all the fault of Israel and the United States.

I agree, they probably are born again Christians who meddle in terriosm when not causing Global warming.

Subject: RE: BS: Islamic terrorists arrested in Ontario
From: Jeri
Date: 03 Jun 06 - 03:55 PM

Guest, I see the problem now: you don't believe terrorists are extremists.

Everybody, have a nice discussion. I don't really want to argue about vocabulary. Frankly, it's a bit weird to read a news story and find people automatically start gravitating to their usual sides and arguing from predicable points of view about the usual subject, which is often not the thread's subject, with a troll or two thrown in just to nit-pick. It's how Mudcatters do things though.

Amos, I agree -- it's oppressive. It's always oppressive, and it's why I tend to talk about politics and world events somewhere besides Mudcat. I just forgot this time. Chalk one up to the "What the hell was I thinkin'" department.

Subject: RE: BS: Islamic terrorists arrested in Ontario
From: CarolC
Date: 03 Jun 06 - 03:58 PM

I'm not suggesting that they are not Muslims. I just find statements like the one about the "Islamic names" to be problematic. If one is only going by the names, that could very well be an erroneous assumption. There have been terrorist attacks in the Middle East that have been committed by Christians, for instance. And I have been able to find at least one person with the name Khalid who is an Iraqi Christian...

- here -

However, if the suspects themselves have said that they are Muslims, we are probably more safe in assuming that they are in fact Muslims.

Subject: RE: BS: Islamic terrorists arrested in Ontario
From: number 6
Date: 03 Jun 06 - 04:02 PM

No nation is immune to acts of terroism and violence these days. It's a frightening world.

BTW ... my daughter's name is Zaid, we're not Arabic and we're not Muslims. Never assume a person's nationality, or religion by their name.

sIx

Subject: RE: BS: Islamic terrorists arrested in Ontario
From: GUEST
Date: 03 Jun 06 - 04:09 PM

Nice typing, eh?

And, Dianavan, while I am one not to accuse without sufficient evidence, will you somewhat agree that those detained may not be Japanese or from the Chinese Mainland. Also, if they are simply "residents" of Canada, then they will not be accused of "striking their own Country". The ones that are 'citizens can be. A moot point to some, but a true one. Probably means that, if found guilty, one group will be hung prior to the other. That would be enough differentiating as far as I am concerned.

I am sure CarolC and Jeri welcome you to their club after you repeating that the net may have been cast too widely as their Attorney stated.

Denial is the first phase of the defense.

Subject: RE: BS: Islamic terrorists arrested in Ontario
From: GUEST
Date: 03 Jun 06 - 04:13 PM

Yes Jeri, exactly what I thought - what the hell is she thinking.

And now you are shifting the responsibility to others for this pathetic thread when you were part of the original "gravitating to one side".

I agree, this is rather a waste, see ya.

Subject: RE: BS: Islamic terrorists arrested in Ontario
From: dianavan
Date: 03 Jun 06 - 04:18 PM

C. Ham says, "I have referred to them as "Islamic terrorists" because that is how they have been describded on both of the Canadian TV news networks (CBC Newsworld and CTV Newsnet) by representatives of the RCMP and Ontario police."

Can you please link to these sources so that I don't have to look at all 474 related articles. I can't seem to find a description of the men arrested as "Islamic Terrorists".

I have no choice but to believe this is your particular spin on the story or if you are just passing along assumptions made by uninformed journalists.

At this point, all anyone knows is that they were men (some underaged) who were planning a terrorist attack. For all I know, they were planning on robbing a bank and blowing the safe.

Subject: RE: BS: Islamic terrorists arrested in Ontario
From: heric
Date: 03 Jun 06 - 04:58 PM

Just because a guy loks like an Arab and his name is Yasim Abdi Mohamed and his wife wears a hajib and he's busted for bomb-making doesn't give you the right to assume the guy is an Islamic terrorist. He could well have been an Hispanic descendent of members of a Dutch chapter of the Huguenots who have been too long repressed. Or something. I guess.

Subject: RE: BS: Islamic terrorists arrested in Ontario
From: Wolfgang
Date: 03 Jun 06 - 05:01 PM

"Inspired by Al-Qaeda" together with the list of names makes one interpretation much more likely than any other. Though I still know that if I hear for instance the beat of hooves in Germany behind me it still could be zebras, couldn't it. None of you has any serious doubts, you just pretend.

Whether the terrorist suspects are actually would-be terrorists that's the real question and not the silly discussion whether most (or all) of those arrested are Islamists or not. They are (at least most of them) and you all know it. But it has happened in more than one coutry in the last couple of years that terrorist suspects have been shot or arrested that later turned out not to be would-be terrorists.

That's where it is sensible to keep an open mind and not on the other artificial point of debate.

Wolfgang

Subject: RE: BS: Islamic terrorists arrested in Ontario
From: CarolC
Date: 03 Jun 06 - 06:23 PM

Interesting how some people think they can summarize someone else's entire position on a particular subject based on only one question. However I notice it is a common enough tactic (I say 'tactic, because 'assumption' seems like too charitible a term for what they are doing) coming from some people around here, who prefer to use ad hominem smears rather than rational discourse.

Or perhaps someone could show me where I actually articulated my own position on the subject of whether or not the suspects are Muslims.

Subject: RE: BS: Islamic terrorists arrested in Ontario
From: Greg F.
Date: 03 Jun 06 - 06:51 PM

They could just as easily be "inspired" bt Timothy McVeighn or the Aryan Nations.

Would that make them "American Terrorists" or "Christian Terrorists"??

Jaysus, people, this paranoid hysteria about an "Islamic Terrorist"[sic] around every corner and under every bed- displacing the proverbial Commie- is REALLY getting boring.

GET A LIFE & get on with it.

Subject: RE: BS: Islamic terrorists arrested in Ontario
From: GUEST,Fernando
Date: 03 Jun 06 - 07:21 PM

I feel a little safer now, knowing that the Canuckians are doing something to defeat terrorisim.

Hope they keep up the good work. I might even buy a few sixpacks of Moose head as a tribute

F

Subject: RE: BS: Islamic terrorists arrested in Ontario
From: bobad
Date: 03 Jun 06 - 07:34 PM

Hey, the mounties always get their man, dontcha know?

Subject: RE: BS: Islamic terrorists arrested in Ontario
From: GUEST
Date: 03 Jun 06 - 07:40 PM

I do not give a rat's ass what religion or 'ethnicity' they are. Put the fu#kers in jail for twenty years and let them think about it.

Fifteen years back the CSIS was about as adept as the CIA. Fortunately they have improved. The Mounties have always been pretty good, barring the odd case of corruption here and there.

Subject: RE: BS: Islamic terrorists arrested in Ontario
From: dianavan
Date: 03 Jun 06 - 08:02 PM

"Just because a guy loks like an Arab and his name is Yasim Abdi Mohamed and his wife wears a hajib and he's busted for bomb-making doesn't give you the right to assume the guy is an Islamic terrorist."

Very good, heric.

I didn't see the list of names of those who were arrested when I posted previously. Based on what heric said, we can deduct that those arrested had names indicating that they are from a middle-eastern culture. We cannot assume that they are all Muslim or that they are terrorists.

Sounds like they were up to some criminal activity but whether or not they were all Islamic Terrorists is not yet known.

You should know better than that, heric.

Subject: RE: BS: Islamic terrorists arrested in Ontario
From: Dave (the ancient mariner)
Date: 03 Jun 06 - 08:30 PM

A Rose by any other name is still a Rose

Subject: RE: BS: Islamic terrorists arrested in Ontario
From: number 6
Date: 03 Jun 06 - 10:10 PM

Then there are the white kids who are lost from the mainstream of the current 'high school' culture, looking for some sort of spirituality and meaning in a world gone mad ... who somehow find Islam as their saving grace ... adopt an Islamic name and it goes from there.

Steve Earl's song Jonny Walker comes to mind here ....

I'm just an American boy raised on MTV
And I've seen all those kids in the soda pop ads
But none of 'em looked like me
So I started lookin' around for a light out of the dim
And the first thing I heard that made sense was the word
Of Mohammed, peace be upon him

A shadu la ilaha illa Allah
There is no God but God

If my daddy could see me now – chains around my feet
He don't understand that sometimes a man
Has got to fight for what he believes
And I believe God is great, all praise due to him
And if I should die, I'll rise up to the sky
Just like Jesus, peace be upon him


We came to fight the Jihad and our hearts were pure and strong
As death filled the air, we all offered up prayers
And prepared for our martyrdom
But Allah had some other plan, some secret not revealed
Now they're draggin' me back with my head in a sack
To the land of the infidel

A shadu la ilaha illa Allah

sIx

Subject: RE: BS: Islamic terrorists arrested in Ontario
From: GUEST,Art Thieme
Date: 03 Jun 06 - 11:24 PM

Bullfrog Beer !

That was absolutely my favorite off-the-wall name for any beer.

Their motto:"If it's good for your mother, it's good for you. GOOD Bullfrog Beer!!"

...Whoops---wrong thread. (Sorry!!)

Art

Subject: RE: BS: Islamic terrorists arrested in Ontario
From: CarolC
Date: 03 Jun 06 - 11:42 PM

There is nothing wrong with Islam. The problem is extremists (of any religion).

LOL, Art.

Subject: RE: BS: Islamic terrorists arrested in Ontario
From: beardedbruce
Date: 04 Jun 06 - 06:46 AM

from the first clicky, in the first post to this thread...
"Most of the 12 adults, whose ages range from 19 to 43, have Arabic names but police say no one community should be singled out.

Muslim leaders in Toronto have condemned the planned attack and said extremist messages had been preached in some area mosques in recent years.

The suspects appear to have "chosen a violent ideology inspired by al-Qaeda", said Luc Portelance, assistant director of operations for the Canadian Security Intelligence Service (CSIS), Canada's spy agency.

Aly Hindy, an imam at a Toronto mosque, said he knew most of the accused and believed one or two were involved in crime but not terrorism. "

Subject: RE: BS: Islamic terrorists arrested in Ontario
From: *daylia*
Date: 04 Jun 06 - 08:40 AM

From the CBC website today, confirming that most of the 17 suspects are Canadian citizens and that their target is Canada.

The charges allege that the men knowingly participated in a terrorist group and either received or provided terrorist training in Toronto, nearby Mississauga, Fort Erie and Ramara Township, located on the shores of Lake Simcoe in central Ontario's cottage county

Ramara Township?!? Say it isn't so! I've been up there a few times over the last few weeks -- so quiet, peaceful and lovely, nestled between Lake Couchiching and Lake Simcoe, just north of LH's roost in Orillia. My son just started training towards his chef's papers there, at Casino Rama's classy restaurants on the Rama First Nation's Reserve. He tells me that some of Canada's basic laws and standards don't seem to apply on the reserve ie   the international restaurants there (such as the one run by Asians exclusively for Asians) are exempt from Canada's Health Act. So, he finds some the practices and procedures in that kitchen shocking to say the least -- for example, they kill the fresh eels they need to make certain delicacies onsite, simply by grabbing the tails and smashing their heads on the kitchen floor.    8-(

ANd now I'm wondering if this apparent immunity to Canadian law makes reserves a target for would-be terrorists. If that's the case, in today's political climate you're not likely to hear about it on the news!

Subject: RE: BS: Islamic terrorists arrested in Ontario
From: GUEST,*daylia*
Date: 04 Jun 06 - 08:55 AM

PS Just to clarify, I'm only speculating above. The article does not mention the Reserve specifically, only the township where it's located. These alleged "terrorists" could have been plotting and planning off-reserve after all - lurking in the forest, surrounded by trilliums, besieged by blackflies and mosquitoes, with their fishing boats close by ready to make a getaway?!?

Subject: RE: BS: Islamic terrorists arrested in Ontario
From: C. Ham
Date: 04 Jun 06 - 09:43 AM

C. Ham says, "I have referred to them as "Islamic terrorists" because that is how they have been describded on both of the Canadian TV news networks (CBC Newsworld and CTV Newsnet) by representatives of the RCMP and Ontario police."

Can you please link to these sources so that I don't have to look at all 474 related articles. I can't seem to find a description of the men arrested as "Islamic Terrorists".

Gee Dianavan, I'm really sorry that I don't have links for the TELEVISION reports I saw of RCMP and Onatrio police press conference.

However, how about this link in which Canadian Muslim Congress spokesman Tarek Fatah says the Islamic terrorists in Ontario "is a small group of criminals and they don't reflect the vast Muslim community in Toronto."

Subject: RE: BS: Islamic terrorists arrested in Ontario
From: C. Ham
Date: 04 Jun 06 - 09:59 AM

Here's an article from the Toronto Star on the terrorists.

The picture of "women believed to be family members of some of the men arrested" would sure suugest to me that they are Moslems.

Subject: RE: BS: Islamic terrorists arrested in Ontario
From: GUEST,Fernando
Date: 04 Jun 06 - 10:39 AM

Is 6000 pounds of ammonium nitrate and a cellphone detonator pretty much a standard thing for Candian citizens?

Subject: RE: BS: Islamic terrorists arrested in Ontario
From: *daylia*
Date: 04 Jun 06 - 12:09 PM

Pretty much not, eh?

Subject: RE: BS: Islamic terrorists arrested in Ontario
From: number 6
Date: 04 Jun 06 - 12:31 PM

"Is 6000 pounds of ammonium nitrate and a cellphone detonator pretty much a standard thing for Candian citizens?"

Being a Canadian I don't think it's a standard 'thing' for my fellow citizens. But it certainly is peanuts compared the the amount of 'things' that have killed 20+ K Iraqi civilians in the last 3 years.

Let's face it ... the world is in a very violent state of being ... it doesn't matter what religion, political ideology ... humans are killing humans all over the world.

sIx

Subject: RE: BS: Islamic terrorists arrested in Ontario
From: CarolC
Date: 04 Jun 06 - 02:45 PM

I'm not all that great with numbers, but based on the figures I've found, the population of the United States is more than ten times larger than that of Iraq. So if you multiply 30,000 (Population of Iraq... I rounded up a bit) by 10, you get 300,000. The number of Iraqi civilians killed by the US led invasion and occupation, as a percentage of the total population would be equivalent to 300,000 US civilians killed. Divide that by 3,000 (approximate number of US civilians killed on 9/11), and you get 100.

That means that the number of civilians killed by the US led invasion and occupation of Iraq is the equivalent of roughly 100, 9/11s by percentage of population.

If terrorists committed ONE HUNDRED attacks on the US that each produced the same number of deaths as on 9/11, that would equal the approximate number of Iraqi civilians killed by the US led invasion and occupation.

A sobering thought.

Subject: RE: BS: Islamic terrorists arrested in Ontario
From: number 6
Date: 04 Jun 06 - 02:48 PM

Thanks Carol ... it is a sobering fact.

sIx

Subject: RE: BS: Islamic terrorists arrested in Ontario
From: robomatic
Date: 04 Jun 06 - 02:52 PM

It is indeed a sobering thought but you are severely muddying the waters by not making it clear that a large number of Iraqis are being killed by their fellow Iraqis in what is to us very confusing and multi-sided fratricidal mayhem. Maybe you are confused as well hence attribute it generally to "US led invasion and occupation".

Subject: RE: BS: Islamic terrorists arrested in Ontario
From: CarolC
Date: 04 Jun 06 - 02:54 PM

No, that's wrong. I need to do that over.

Subject: RE: BS: Islamic terrorists arrested in Ontario
From: CarolC
Date: 04 Jun 06 - 02:57 PM

robomatic, the (approximately) 20,000 figure is just based on civilians directly killed by US forces, not insurgents. But I still got my numbers wrong.

I'll do it again.

Subject: RE: BS: Islamic terrorists arrested in Ontario
From: CarolC
Date: 04 Jun 06 - 03:03 PM

It would be the equivalent of around 66.66666(etc) 9/11s by percentage.

Iraq has approximately 30 million people, not 30,000. The US has almost 300 million. Approximate numbers of Iraqi civilians killed by US and "coalition" forces in the invasion and occupation probably more than 20,000 (conservative figure).

20,000 x 10 = 200,000... divided by 3,000 = 66.66666(etc.)

It's still a sobering thought.