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BS: I am boycotting the MJ obit thread

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Ron Davies 26 Jun 09 - 10:09 PM
GUEST,.gargoyle 26 Jun 09 - 11:39 PM
goatfell 27 Jun 09 - 04:06 AM
GUEST,Shimrod 27 Jun 09 - 05:10 AM
Skipper Jack 27 Jun 09 - 06:18 AM
Tug the Cox 27 Jun 09 - 06:49 AM
goatfell 27 Jun 09 - 07:23 AM
bankley 27 Jun 09 - 10:49 AM
Lizzie Cornish 1 27 Jun 09 - 11:57 AM
ard mhacha 27 Jun 09 - 01:10 PM
heric 27 Jun 09 - 01:23 PM
kendall 27 Jun 09 - 01:27 PM
The Sandman 27 Jun 09 - 01:39 PM
Rifleman (inactive) 27 Jun 09 - 01:53 PM
heric 27 Jun 09 - 01:57 PM
Little Hawk 27 Jun 09 - 02:17 PM
Peace 27 Jun 09 - 02:18 PM
Rifleman (inactive) 27 Jun 09 - 02:33 PM
kendall 27 Jun 09 - 03:08 PM
Bill D 27 Jun 09 - 03:10 PM
Rifleman (inactive) 27 Jun 09 - 03:22 PM
GUEST,Big Norman Voice 27 Jun 09 - 03:49 PM
kendall 27 Jun 09 - 03:52 PM
Rifleman (inactive) 27 Jun 09 - 04:07 PM
Bill D 27 Jun 09 - 05:06 PM
Georgiansilver 27 Jun 09 - 06:28 PM
Little Hawk 27 Jun 09 - 06:33 PM
alanabit 27 Jun 09 - 06:39 PM
bobad 27 Jun 09 - 06:44 PM
Tug the Cox 27 Jun 09 - 06:55 PM
Don Firth 27 Jun 09 - 07:38 PM
Nick E 27 Jun 09 - 09:03 PM
Raedwulf 27 Jun 09 - 09:06 PM
Stilly River Sage 27 Jun 09 - 09:07 PM
Little Hawk 27 Jun 09 - 09:27 PM
Little Hawk 27 Jun 09 - 09:34 PM
number 6 27 Jun 09 - 10:30 PM
Little Hawk 27 Jun 09 - 11:15 PM
number 6 27 Jun 09 - 11:53 PM
Barry Finn 28 Jun 09 - 12:29 AM
Lizzie Cornish 1 28 Jun 09 - 04:35 AM
Lizzie Cornish 1 28 Jun 09 - 04:38 AM
number 6 28 Jun 09 - 06:35 AM
John Hardly 28 Jun 09 - 06:49 AM
Lizzie Cornish 1 28 Jun 09 - 07:27 AM
Lizzie Cornish 1 28 Jun 09 - 07:29 AM
catspaw49 28 Jun 09 - 07:34 AM
Mooh 28 Jun 09 - 07:36 AM
Little Hawk 28 Jun 09 - 07:47 AM
Little Hawk 28 Jun 09 - 07:54 AM

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Subject: RE: BS: I am boycotting the MJ obit thread
From: Ron Davies
Date: 26 Jun 09 - 10:09 PM

"Using" the cute energetic kid. In 1970, which I think is when the Jackson 5 had their first hits, Michael would have been 10 or 11.   What do you think he had to offer musically at 10 or 11, which was suppressed by the group and kept from the musical public?

And very soon after the first 3 big hits, they gave Michael a solo. As far as I'm concerned that was the start of his decline. He was never again such fun.

WMMV.

Having said that, I have also read that the Jackson father did drive his kids hard.


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Subject: RE: BS: I am boycotting the MJ obit thread
From: GUEST,.gargoyle
Date: 26 Jun 09 - 11:39 PM

I do not beleive that MJ:
1. Wrote his own lyrics
2. Composed his own melody

He did understand marketing....

Michael ... was the black-magic-puppet ... controlled ... until he seized control (at any cost) when it all spun out of control.

Sincerely,
Gargoyle

Some say there is another balck-magic-puppet ... still jumping today.


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Subject: RE: BS: I am boycotting the MJ obit thread
From: goatfell
Date: 27 Jun 09 - 04:06 AM

I agree with you Joe Offer


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Subject: RE: BS: I am boycotting the MJ obit thread
From: GUEST,Shimrod
Date: 27 Jun 09 - 05:10 AM

Yesterday (26th June) the obituary columns in the Guardian (UK) newspaper were devoted to MJ and Farah Fawcett Major. The day before two obituaries had caught my eye, those of Heinz Spitz and Hortensia Bussia de Allende.

Mr Spitz had been born into a Jewish family in Austria. As a teenager he had been evacuated to Britain in the Kindertransport and his family had been murdered by Hitler. He had become a teacher of mathematics in his new country and educated hundreds of its children. He had lived a blameless life devoted to books and the theatre (his main love outside of teaching). In the obituary he was fondly remembered by his family and friends.

H. B. de Allende was the widow the Chilean President, Salvador Allende who was deposed in a coup in 1973.
After her husband's death, and the takeover of her country by the butcher Pinochet, she had campaigned tirelessly, from exile, for human rights.

These two got a few column inches apiece, Mrs Allende more than Mr Spitz. A day later MJ got a whole page plus several more pages elsewhere in the paper devoted to his death (including the front page).

Our culture has got some very weird priorities!


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Subject: RE: BS: I am boycotting the MJ obit thread
From: Skipper Jack
Date: 27 Jun 09 - 06:18 AM

Yes, I think all this media coverage is way over the top.


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Subject: RE: BS: I am boycotting the MJ obit thread
From: Tug the Cox
Date: 27 Jun 09 - 06:49 AM

I think all this nonsense on Mudcat is way over the top.People writing in to say they don't want to write about something! And they called HIM Wacko.


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Subject: RE: BS: I am boycotting the MJ obit thread
From: goatfell
Date: 27 Jun 09 - 07:23 AM

God and you think that Jackson was good


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Subject: RE: BS: I am boycotting the MJ obit thread
From: bankley
Date: 27 Jun 09 - 10:49 AM

'for each exquisite beauty, there is strangeness in the proportion'

Alexander Pope.... inscribed for Edgar Allan Poe at his West Point memorial


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Subject: RE: BS: I am boycotting the MJ obit thread
From: Lizzie Cornish 1
Date: 27 Jun 09 - 11:57 AM

Goodness, aren't we *lucky* to have so many different types of music to celebrate! And if, just occasionally, another genre of music finds its way into Mudcat, well....why not raise our hands in joy, for it may also bring other posters into this place, new blood...and who knows, they may stay and look around, discover some of YOUR music.

Michael Jackson was a Star from the moment he stepped out onto that stage on the Andy Williams show. He remained a Star for the next 44 years of his life, at the top of the tree.

Child molester?

Well, try this.

Hey, did you all know that (insert names of whichever poster you prefer) has been rumoured to be having it off with little kids?

And *that* is all it takes.

Now, you and I may know the poster who is ficticiously named, and we know what they're really like, but Joe Public has no idea, and suddenly, from nowhere a whole 'other' life is built up, stinking mud sticks like glue, held in place by those with twisted souls who love to see others squirm in horror and make money out of it all whilst they're doing it.

Nothing was proved.

Yes, the family concerned received a great deal of money, but let's face it, even that ain't gonna stop loose mouths from talking, if that's what really happened.

I had a friend who was a teacher, a history teacher. He was accused of molesting a young girl in his class. *She* used to phone him up, found out his home number and rang him a great deal, then, I guess when the affection wasn't returned, she made her allegations. He always denied it, but the damage was already done, the doubt became his life. He went downhill from there. A year or so later, after his marriage had broken up, he went out to the little shop in Horrabridge, bought a few bits, then walked up Jordans Lane with his rucksack, saying hello to folks he passed. He got to the top, turned off into the woods, just before the open moors started to come into view...and hanged himself.



NONE of us know what happened in Michael's case.

Tell me, what kind of parents would let their kids stay over at anyone's house they didn't know? You can argue that the parents themselves had ulterior motives and used their children to get money out of Michael Jackson. If that was the case, they sure as hell succeeded.

Tell me again, if Michael's lawyers had let the case go all the way, how do you know that child would have been telling the truth?

I don't know the answers...but then, none of us do.

All I know is that a highly talented man, one who gave pleasure to millions of people, not just a few, but millions, worldwide, has died and I don't think it's right to start spewing out the venom....because, apart from anything else, it makes those who are doing it look so hard and uncaring.

Peter Pan.

Let's go back to Peter, and Neverland, and Tootles losing his marbles, shall we?


J. M. Barrie...a man who had allegations of paedeophilia flung at him.....A man who took on another man's children and loved them as his own..Who looked after them after their mother's death and knew great sadness when some of those children died young...A man who gave birth to the character that Michael Jackson so longed to be....

Peter, the boy who never grew up. The boy who only wanted to play, to play with the Lost Boys, his friends, his loyal friends.

It's no good any of you putting Michael into the way you've lived your lives, because his was so different from your own. You cannot possibly understand what his journey was about, where it led him, what he thought, felt, agonised over, rejoiced over.

Was JM Barrie a paedeophile, or someone who just loved the happy, innocent minds of children, the minds of humans that are untouched by hatreds, wars, racism, evil.....the things that adults put upon them, eventually.

He created one of the most magical children's stories, that's for sure, one that nearly all of us have read to our own children.

What if Neverland really WAS built for children to be happy in?
What if Michael only wanted to see children happy?
What if he only wanted to surround himself with their happiness, catch up with a lifetime of missed childhood himself?

What if he was Good, rather than Bad?

What IF?

Finding Neverland

There are many people who adore children, I'm one of them, but that does NOT make those people paedeophiles, it merely makes us adults with the hearts of children, who love to laugh, to play, to have fun.

Just another way of looking at this whole thing. I don't know if my way is correct, but then...I don't know if your way is either.

Think out of the box, that's all.........try to see the good....


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Subject: RE: BS: I am boycotting the MJ obit thread
From: ard mhacha
Date: 27 Jun 09 - 01:10 PM

On BBC news this morning their Nigerian correspondent interviewing the people on the streets of Lagos reported that there was not a lot of interest in Jackson. One young Nigerian resented his efforts to alter his facial colour, he stated that he insulted black people.


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Subject: RE: BS: I am boycotting the MJ obit thread
From: heric
Date: 27 Jun 09 - 01:23 PM

Sorry little Michael getting a thrill is at 3:40-3:60.

Yeah he's a human being who for some reason bothered to create a giant magic show.


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Subject: RE: BS: I am boycotting the MJ obit thread
From: kendall
Date: 27 Jun 09 - 01:27 PM

Lizzie, I make up my mind according to the evidence, not wishful thinking. The evidence says he was a child molester. He was not found innocent, he was found not guilty which simply means the allegations were not proved beyond a reasonable doubt.
In Scotland, I believe they say, "Not proven".


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Subject: RE: BS: I am boycotting the MJ obit thread
From: The Sandman
Date: 27 Jun 09 - 01:39 PM

kendall,
not proven is not guilty,not guilty is innocent.
personally I detest JACKSON AND HIS MUSIC,but I do not think he was guilty,and the allegations were never proven.


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Subject: RE: BS: I am boycotting the MJ obit thread
From: Rifleman (inactive)
Date: 27 Jun 09 - 01:53 PM

Not proven: Essentially, the judge or jury is unconvinced that the suspect is innocent, but has insufficient evidence to the contrary.

in other words, to put it simply.... you're not guilty and don't do it again.


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Subject: RE: BS: I am boycotting the MJ obit thread
From: heric
Date: 27 Jun 09 - 01:57 PM

lol


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Subject: RE: BS: I am boycotting the MJ obit thread
From: Little Hawk
Date: 27 Jun 09 - 02:17 PM

Yes, but none of us know for sure whether MJ was guilty of child molestation, do we? We merely have our opinions. Those opinions are based on what we've heard through the mass media and by word of mouth. The information we've heard may be tainted, it may be misleading, and it may be wrong.

Once we've formed an opinion (the vast majority of us, I mean) we cling to it with the tenacity of a barnacle clinging to a ship or a lamprey clinging to a fish he's devouring. That's because of how our pride works. Our ego will not admit to having made an error. That's what drives threads around here to hundreds and hundreds of posts. Silly human pride.

And yet....we STILL might be wrong.

So don't imagine that YOU are in any position to make some kind of final judgement on the character of Michael Jackson or anyone else like him. You're not. You're just another person clinging to your favorite opinions.

* disclaimer: I am not directing the above post toward any specific individual on this forum, but merely as a cautionary statement toward all the people who might read it. Be not too hasty to judge others. Someone may judge you in a similar fashion one day, and you won't like it. It could even ruin your life. And you might STILL be innocent.


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Subject: RE: BS: I am boycotting the MJ obit thread
From: Peace
Date: 27 Jun 09 - 02:18 PM

From a law site--written by a lawyer.

'In a criminal case you are either "guilty" or "not guilty". When the jury returns with it's verdict it will be one or the other. This is not much ado about nothing. My goal in a criminal trial is to get the jury to say at the end "not guilty" not "we find you innocent". The reason of course is that the law places the burden of proving someone guilty beyond a reasonable doubt on the government. You don't have to prove your innocence. (like you could even do that). The person accused has no burden of proof at all. In fact the trial starts with one fact absolutely established, that the defendant is presumed "not guilty". The government must prove guilt to the highest standard the law allows and if they don't the jury has no choice but to find the defendant "not guilty".'


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Subject: RE: BS: I am boycotting the MJ obit thread
From: Rifleman (inactive)
Date: 27 Jun 09 - 02:33 PM

Not proven is to be found only in Scottish law I believe, so therefore is unique in the annals of law.

Thank you yer honour..*bows to the judge and exits the court room*


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Subject: RE: BS: I am boycotting the MJ obit thread
From: kendall
Date: 27 Jun 09 - 03:08 PM

I'm a career law enforcement officer and I've been in many a court trial. I know what I know, and the evidence says he was guilty.


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Subject: RE: BS: I am boycotting the MJ obit thread
From: Bill D
Date: 27 Jun 09 - 03:10 PM

"...the allegations were never proven."

That means they have no photographs, All they had was testimony from a couple of 'alleged' victims.

They didn't have video of OJ at the crime scene either. People will believe what they wish.

*IF* MJ was technically innocent of 'molestion, he was still very much involved in inappropriate behavior in having underage boys alone and spending the night with him.


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Subject: RE: BS: I am boycotting the MJ obit thread
From: Rifleman (inactive)
Date: 27 Jun 09 - 03:22 PM

"...the allegations were never proven."

"People will believe what they wish."

NO...the law says innocent until proven guilty, whether what was supposed to have occurred actually happened is irrelevant in the eyes of the law, but obviously innocent until proven guilty doesn't exist in your narrow little world, good thing ignorance isn't a crime, some people would be doing life.


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Subject: RE: BS: I am boycotting the MJ obit thread
From: GUEST,Big Norman Voice
Date: 27 Jun 09 - 03:49 PM

Lizzie; for the first time ever, I find myself in total agreement with you.
Kendall, much as I love you, you are talking crap, and I detect more that a little prejudice in your posts.
MJ? Well I never met the guy, don't like his music, and have no evidence one way or the other apart from hearsay, as to whether he did or didn't break any laws.
I do know that he wouldn't be the first person to be denigrated on Mudcat, without both sides of the story being aired!
BNV


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Subject: RE: BS: I am boycotting the MJ obit thread
From: kendall
Date: 27 Jun 09 - 03:52 PM

Opinions are like assholes. We all have one, and as long as feelings are up against evidence there will be no solution. There is no further point in beating a dead horse and I lack the energy to waste on this crap, so I'm gone.

By the way. the court found OJ not guilty. How many of you believe he is innocent?


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Subject: RE: BS: I am boycotting the MJ obit thread
From: Rifleman (inactive)
Date: 27 Jun 09 - 04:07 PM

"Opinions are like assholes"

Yup.oh so true kendall*LOL*

I could care less either way about Michael Jackson, I was never a fan, prefering the far more talented musicians on the Tamla-Motown label (Smokey Robinson, and The Marvelettes come to mind)I merely state what the law says, without any agenda.


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Subject: RE: BS: I am boycotting the MJ obit thread
From: Bill D
Date: 27 Jun 09 - 05:06 PM

..and I KNOW what the law says.

I also know the sage wisdom that says: "The purpose of a fair trial is to get together 12 honest people to determine who has the best lawyer."

I am quite aware that they had insufficient hard evidence to convict **Michael Jackson**, who had one of the better lawyers.. The same evidence might have allowed a jury of 12 honest people to convict Joe Sixpack from Wheeling West Virginia. You must know how these things go.

I am not offering an opinion as to his guilt, as I said before.

People will still believe what they wish. Some on both sides.


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Subject: RE: BS: I am boycotting the MJ obit thread
From: Georgiansilver
Date: 27 Jun 09 - 06:28 PM

This thread has done extremely well as a "boycotting" thread......


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Subject: RE: BS: I am boycotting the MJ obit thread
From: Little Hawk
Date: 27 Jun 09 - 06:33 PM

I have little or no idea whether he was innocent or not, I'm not all that interested in the first place, and I will never know for sure. I would be quite interested if I had been directly involved, as in being related to some of the children in question, but I'm not, and this was never a story that interested me. This type of media frenzy story about celebrities and unsavory sex crimes holds little or no interest for me.

What interests me, though, is how much so many people find delight in obsessing over stuff like this, spewing bile at an accused, and the alacrity with which they all gather to "burn the witch", destroy the "outsider", crucify the accused, etc.

They really enjoy it. They get a lot of pleasure from it. That's what bothers me. It's just about as unsavory in spirit as the alleged crimes are. It's sordid.


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Subject: RE: BS: I am boycotting the MJ obit thread
From: alanabit
Date: 27 Jun 09 - 06:39 PM

PoppaGator's second paragraph has made it unnecessary for me to post another word on this subject.


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Subject: RE: BS: I am boycotting the MJ obit thread
From: bobad
Date: 27 Jun 09 - 06:44 PM

An opinion from Chris Ayres, of the Times of London, who attended the trial:

"It is not that Jackson was obviously a child molester who happened to get lucky with a soft jury in 2005. That was not the case at all: the charges against him were overblown and should never have reached court.

The accusers were hucksters with zero credibility — something that should have been obvious from the beginning to Tom Sneddon, the red-faced, shouty Santa Barbara County District Attorney, who seemed to have made a personal crusade out of putting Jackson in prison. No, what made a little bit of your soul die every time you went to court was the spectacle of a man who had been so utterly corrupted by everything that's wrong with fame — to the point where he had quite literally mutilated himself."

http://entertainment.timesonline.co.uk/tol/arts_and_entertainment/music/article6586830.ece


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Subject: RE: BS: I am boycotting the MJ obit thread
From: Tug the Cox
Date: 27 Jun 09 - 06:55 PM

Well done Lizzie. For most of the others, how can you speak with such conviction about things that you admit yourselves are not known.


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Subject: RE: BS: I am boycotting the MJ obit thread
From: Don Firth
Date: 27 Jun 09 - 07:38 PM

This tends to support what I wrote above about Michael Jackson's lost childhood. And it goes on to give a reasonably comprehensive run-down on the sexual abuse charges.

In all fairness. . . .

Don Firth


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Subject: BS: Autopsy Reveals MJ Died of Food Poison
From: Nick E
Date: 27 Jun 09 - 09:03 PM

He ate a 10 year old weiner.


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Subject: RE: BS: I am boycotting the MJ obit thread
From: Raedwulf
Date: 27 Jun 09 - 09:06 PM

I posted this as a Facebook comment. Strangely, it seems to have been appreciated...

"So Jacko's dead? So what? He was weird (and this is someone weird saying this!), he shuffled around a bit to music he never wrote... Oh wait, he was rich, marketable even when in court & broke (I do realise the contradiction with the previous), etc. I hope I'll hear less of him dead than living. A bit like George Best & Princess Di... :-/"

What really made me laugh was the half a quote I heard that started "MJ was the first person of colour..." Yeah? Really? So why did the sad bastard spend all of his adult life trying to be white?

My annoyance isn't about his colour or his race; it's about his *denial*. He tried to be something that he wasn't. Not something he could have been; something he never was & couldn't have been. I do realise I'll probably get jumped on for that remark, as a lot of you won't see what I'm getting at; some of you will. In his case, the manifestation was (visibly, at least) trying to bleach his skin, change his face. At heart, it was running away from himself. Pathetic, in the original non-derogatory sense of pathos.

I've always felt rather sorry for him, alongside not being a fan of his music & not being interested in him. I'll metaphorically bury my head in the sand for the next couple of weeks until he goes away. After that, he'll be "Michael who? Oh, he was someone or other. He didn't change the world, did he..."


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Subject: RE: BS: Autopsy Reveals MJ Died of Food Poison
From: Stilly River Sage
Date: 27 Jun 09 - 09:07 PM

So you've cornered the market on bad taste today, eh, Nick E, and thought you'd share it with us by starting a stupid thread?
    Messages moved to existing thread.
    -Joe Offer-


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Subject: RE: BS: I am boycotting the MJ obit thread
From: Little Hawk
Date: 27 Jun 09 - 09:27 PM

I suspect it's because I don't watch TV and don't listen to the radio that I am not getting affected much by all the media Hoo-Hah about MJ, and thus not reacting much against it either. It just doesn't reach me, therefore I am not irritated by it.

What I do is this: I open my internet page and check the news a couple of times a day. That takes a few seconds, and I don't have to listen to a pile of advertising. If any particular news item strikes me as worth investigating, then I read about it in some depth on the Internet...and later in the day in more depth when I read the paper.

And that's it. No broadcast media. No advertising. Hardly any hype at all to deal with.

I think, Poppa Gator, that if you (and many others here) also didn't watch TV as a regular thing, then you probably wouldn't be so annoyed by the media feeding frenzy that is presently occuring in regards to the death of Michael Jackson. It would rank as large in grabbing your attention.

It is possible to be quite well-informed without putting up with commercial TV or commercial radio, and it makes for a more relaxed mind and a happier one too, I think. The powers that be would be horrified if a couple 100 million people decided to do what I have done in this regard...because they wouldn't be able to control what they think nearly as easily any longer and they wouldn't be able to sell them all the crap in the TV and radio ads...and that's what media is largely about. Consensus is nowadays manufactured through massive media coverage to the saturation point. So is division and war between groups. People are so used to it that most of them just take it for granted. I do not.

The little hypnotic, blathering electronic screen in the living room is the main tool of modern enslavement through its conditioning of people's daily thinking. Read George Orwell and give it some thought.


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Subject: RE: BS: I am boycotting the MJ obit thread
From: Little Hawk
Date: 27 Jun 09 - 09:34 PM

One typo in the last post. Should have read: "It would not rank as large in grabbing your attention."


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Subject: RE: BS: I am boycotting the MJ obit thread
From: number 6
Date: 27 Jun 09 - 10:30 PM

"the main tool of modern enslavement through its conditioning of people's daily thinking."

... and that doesn't apply to the glowing monitor that you are glaring at as you type this post?

biLL


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Subject: RE: BS: I am boycotting the MJ obit thread
From: Little Hawk
Date: 27 Jun 09 - 11:15 PM

Not in the same way or to the same extent, Bill....although internet and computer addiction IS a major problem in itself. However, it's more comparable to many other common behavioural addictions than it is to the "passive receiver" effects created by radio and TV, and here's why:

1. A Radio or TV station stems from a single centralized source, and that source is usually a mouthpiece for some huge corporate and/or governmental interests. That source pre-censors what you will hear from it.

The content on the Internet stems from billions of separate sources, including individual people of every type imaginable...thus all possible viewpoints are accessible there. It's a free and open forum to almost everything humanity can offer one another. It is not controllable (as yet) by the centralized powers that be.

2. Radio and TV stations are primarily vehicles for corporate advertising and government propaganda.

The Internet is not primarily a vehicle for such advertising or propaganda, and YOU are the one in charge of whether or not you view most of the advertising and propaganda that's on the Net. You can easily avoid most of it and go to something else. It doesn't steal much, if any of your viewing time.

TV ads steal a big chunk of the available time spent watching what you want to watch. That is not so on the Internet, except on a very few sites there may be brief commercial interruptions, but you can usually disable them with a click.

***

You see, on the Net, I can talk directly to you and to millions of other ordinary individuals. You and I are active participants in the process, and we control our part in the process.

This is not true of TV or radio. I can't talk to you via TV or radio stations. In the case of TV or radio the viewer is not an active participant, he's a passive receiver, and he controls nothing more than the on/off switch. If he chooses to watch TV or listen to radio he becomes a totally passive receiver of whatever the station decides to give him. He becomes like a sponge, like a sheep at the trough, and must eat whatever is put in the trough, or eat nothing at all.

On the internet he can choose from an unlimited smorgasbord of "food" and he can EVEN do some of the cooking AND serve it to others!

That's what you and I can do here. We can communicate. Freely. To each other.

That's why the Internet works for me. That's why TV and radio don't work for me. I do not relish being a helpless receiver of pre-digested dogma from some major power structure in my society...via a radio or a TV.


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Subject: RE: BS: I am boycotting the MJ obit thread
From: number 6
Date: 27 Jun 09 - 11:53 PM

oh



but

concerning your point 1 .... isn't a website "a single centralized source, and that source is usually a mouthpiece for an individual, organization or corporate and/or governmental interests. That source pre-censors what you will hear from it. I think as websites much like t.v. stations ... with a much wider selection. And like t.v. stations much of the content is garbage.

concerning your point 2 .... you cannot deny many websites are primarily vehicles for individual, organizational, corporate advertising and government propaganda. Many websites do include advertizing and many have annoying popups. Then again, we can choose which website we goto, and with TV we also can choose the channel we watch ... even make the choice of some non-advertising channels.

All in all, the WWW is now the new TV. In fact it is now being integrated with the internet ... i.e. internet delivering your TV channels for viewing ... hell, we can now surf for our garbage websites and watch our reality t.v. shows on the same screen ... we can even watch Bill O'Rielly and Lou Dobbs and participate on their websites in polls, blogs etc.

Yup .... we are now becoming slaves beyond the realm of viewing TV (a helpless receiver) ... we are not becoming real time particpants on the slave galleys. It's becoming harder to break free and control our lives.

biLL


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Subject: RE: BS: I am boycotting the MJ obit thread
From: Barry Finn
Date: 28 Jun 09 - 12:29 AM

Another note in the sad passing of a troubled soul. He might be all that & more but he was a mess & a life wasted on drugs should not be imortalized nor praised. That should be given to hose that deserved it not those that abused it. I feel the same way about some other kings.
As mentioned above, there are others that recently passed on that did far more than MJ but only got a brief passing note. We should be honoring those that we really see as heroes not celebs that climed to the heights & then blew their whole wad down the toilet.

Barry


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Subject: RE: BS: I am boycotting the MJ obit thread
From: Lizzie Cornish 1
Date: 28 Jun 09 - 04:35 AM

From Raedwulf:

"I've always felt rather sorry for him, alongside not being a fan of his music & not being interested in him. I'll metaphorically bury my head in the sand for the next couple of weeks until he goes away. After that, he'll be "Michael who? Oh, he was someone or other. He didn't change the world, did he..."



Here's a few things he did, which probably changed more people's 'worlds' for the better than you could ever hope to do.


Michael Jackson Charities

Heal The World

Heal The World on Wiki


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Subject: RE: BS: I am boycotting the MJ obit thread
From: Lizzie Cornish 1
Date: 28 Jun 09 - 04:38 AM

And..just in case you can't be bothered to open those links, Raedwulf, because you're so busy wanting to promote your own image of Michael Jackson, here's the piece from the Heal The World site...

    "To all those who love him,

    The death of Michael Jackson is a great American tragedy. His heart had been battered on all fronts, but he believed in humanity and wanted to change the world.

    People are now remembering his music legacy, but behind the scenes, unknown to all but a small handful of people, during these last 7 years he authorized that tens of thousands be spent on maintaining the preservation of his charity organization Heal the World Foundation (HTWF).   

    Jackson started HTWF in 1992 and was designed to leverage his name, adding to the many millions Michael Jackson had personally given to charity. With Michael Jackson not happy at turning 50 years old, he stepped up his efforts for a multifaceted comeback.

    Following these final performances, it was believed that Mr. Jackson would live a long and full life, devoted to HTWF and serving his God and his fellow man, with his fans leading the way.

    The staff at Heal the World Foundation express our deep sorrow for the loss the world has suffered. We are devastated by the loss of one of the world's great humanitarians and hope that in his absence we will be able to take the torch of his legacy and give back to his memory the same beauty he gave freely to so many.

    We express our condolences to his family, to Michael's several spokespeople and representatives who made HTWF's expanded mission possible and more especially to his fans who saw him as a genuine inspiration and the lifeblood to our work. We love you as he loved you.

    With profound sadness,

    Mel Wilson
    Vice President
    Heal the World Foundation"


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Subject: RE: BS: I am boycotting the MJ obit thread
From: number 6
Date: 28 Jun 09 - 06:35 AM

"The staff at Heal the World Foundation express our deep sorrow for the loss the world has suffered."

"the loss the world has suffered"   ..... Whew, pretty powerful.

Up until Friday the world headlines were concerning the human struggle for democracy, human rights in Iran .... people were on the streets risking their won lives, screaming to be heard against an oppressive, lying leadership.

Now Iran is 2nd page news In all the media including the WWW). Lost behind the headlines "Jackon's Doc copperating with the police" ... the human struggle for basic rights and democracy seem's now to be forgotten.

Michael Jackson never touched my heart (a moment's silent in Congress??) ... but Neda Agha Soltan did, and the vision of human beings fighting for truth, freedom has.

I guess that's the bottom line for as to why I am posting to this thread.

biLL


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Subject: RE: BS: I am boycotting the MJ obit thread
From: John Hardly
Date: 28 Jun 09 - 06:49 AM

Jackson made some of the best recordings of the eighties. The recordings have held up well. He was also the principle conduit in the popularization of street dance to the mainstream. He was talented, and by all accounts, hard-working at his craft.

Jackson was also clearly mentally disturbed. Care to make a list of the number of people throughout history who have unsuccessfully walked the tightrope between their sanity and their genius?

I had the LPs and loved them. When his insanity led him to criminality, as much as I wanted to buy the reissued recordings on CD, I couldn't bring myself to. Now that the estate will be settled in a manner that can no longer benefit him, I may finally have my wish and be able to buy the CDs.


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Subject: RE: BS: I am boycotting the MJ obit thread
From: Lizzie Cornish 1
Date: 28 Jun 09 - 07:27 AM

Criminality?   

Below is taken from here, on Wiki


"1993–94: Sexual abuse accusations and marriage
Main article: 1993 child sexual abuse accusations against Michael Jackson
Jackson gave a 90-minute interview with Oprah Winfrey in February 1993, his first television interview since 1979. He grimaced when speaking of his childhood abuse at the hands of his father; he believed he had missed out on much of his childhood years, admitting that he often cried from loneliness. He denied previous tabloid rumors that he bought the bones of the Elephant Man or slept in a hyperbaric oxygen chamber. The entertainer went on to dispel suggestions that he bleached his skin, stating for the first time that he had vitiligo. The interview was watched by 90 million Americans, becoming the fourth most-viewed non-sport program in US history. It also started a public debate on the topic of vitiligo, a relatively unknown condition before then. Dangerous re-entered the album chart top 10, more than a year after its original release.[10][11][75]

Jackson was accused of child sexual abuse by a 13-year-old child named Jordan Chandler and his father Evan Chandler.[82] The friendship between Jackson and Evan Chandler broke down. Sometime afterwards, Evan Chandler was tape-recorded saying amongst other things, "If I go through with this, I win big-time. There's no way I lose. I will get everything I want and they will be destroyed forever...Michael's career will be over".[83] A year after they had met, under the influence of sodium amytal, a controversial sedative, Jordan Chandler told his father that Jackson had touched his penis.[84] Evan Chandler and Jackson, represented by their legal teams, then engaged in unsuccessful negotiations to resolve the issue in a financial settlement; the negotiations were initiated by Chandler but Jackson did make several counter offers. Jordan Chandler then told a psychiatrist and later police that he and Jackson had engaged in acts of kissing, masturbation and oral sex, as well as giving a detailed description of what he alleged were the singer's genitals.[85]

An official investigation began, with Jordan Chandler's mother adamant that there was no wrongdoing on Jackson's part. Neverland Ranch was searched; multiple children and family members denied that he was a pedophile.[85] Jackson's image took a further turn for the worse when his older sister La Toya Jackson accused him of being a pedophile, a statement she later retracted.[86] Jackson agreed to a 25-minute strip search, conducted at his ranch. The search was required to see if a description provided by Jordan Chandler was accurate. Doctors concluded that there were some strong similarities, but it was not a definitive match.[86] Jackson made an emotional public statement on the events; he proclaimed his innocence, criticized what he perceived as biased media coverage and told of his strip search.[82]

Jackson began taking painkillers, Valium, Xanax and Ativan to deal with the stress of the allegations made against him. By the fall of 1993, Jackson was addicted to the drugs.[87] His health deteriorated to the extent that he canceled the remainder of the Dangerous World Tour and went into drug rehabilitation for a few months.[88] The stress of the allegations also caused Jackson to stop eating, and he lost a significant amount of weight.[89] With his health in decline, Jackson's friends and legal advisers took over his defense and finances; they called on him to settle the allegations out of court, believing that he could not endure a lengthy trial.[88][89]

Tabloid reaction to the allegations put Jackson in an unfavorable light.[90] Complaints about the coverage and media included everything from bias against Jackson, accepting stories of alleged criminal activity for money to accepting confidential leaked material from the police investigation in return for money paid.[91] On January 1, 1994, Jackson settled with the Chandler family and their legal team out of court, in a civil lawsuit for $22 million. After the settlement Jordan Chandler refused to continue with police regarding criminal proceedings. Jackson was never charged, and the state closed its criminal investigation, citing lack of evidence.[92]

In May 1994, Jackson married singer-songwriter Lisa Marie Presley, the daughter of Elvis Presley. They had first met in 1975 during one of Jackson's family engagements at the MGM Grand Hotel and Casino, and were reconnected through a mutual friend in early 1993.[90] They stayed in contact every day over the telephone. As child molestation accusations became public, Jackson became dependent on Lisa Marie for emotional support; she was concerned about his faltering health and addiction to drugs.[87] Lisa Marie explained, "I believed he didn't do anything wrong and that he was wrongly accused and yes I started falling for him. I wanted to save him. I felt that I could do it."[93] In a phone call he made to her, she described him as high, incoherent and delusional.[87] Shortly afterwards, she tried to persuade Jackson to settle the allegations out of court and go into rehabilitation to recover—he subsequently did both.[87] Jackson proposed to Lisa Marie over the telephone towards the fall of 1993, saying, "If I asked you to marry me, would you do it?".[87] Presley and Jackson married in the Dominican Republic in secrecy; the parties denied they had been married for nearly two months.[94] The marriage was, in her words, "a married couple's life ... that was sexually active".[95] At the time, the tabloid media speculated that the wedding was a ploy to prop up Jackson's public image in light of prior sexual abuse allegations.[94] Jackson and Presley divorced less than two years later, remaining friendly.[96]"


Just imagine, for a moment....

A man who actually was little more than a child himself, a body shape that never seemed to grow to manhood, nor a voice either. A mind which decided to stay in Neverland for the whole of his life, trying to make things better for other kids.

Allegations are flung at him, because of the naive way he lived his life, leaving him wide open for the kind of accusations that eventually found their way to him.

Let's keep to the innocent theory here....

From that moment on, Michael knew that any further work for children would be out of the question, any further association with children too.

Imagine how you'd feel, if it were you, and no, don't give me the..."I'd never have done that in the first place' stuff, because I'm asking you to step into his shoes, naievity and all.....step into his life, inside his head....and imagine that the one thing you loved doing, helping children, had suddenly taken a twist so hideous that your life would never be the same again....

Of course, there are many who'll say he was a conniving paedeophile, but no, in my view, he wasn't.

At the end of the day, only Michael and the boy concerned, and his greedy father, are the only ones who knew the truth.

It's a terrible thing though, to have to live your life knowing that vicious lies are being told about you, and there is nothing you can do to make some people change their minds.

I'm just glad he's out of it all now, poor soul....

And hey, you can't blame him for the press choosing to not report on Iran, but I guess some will..They go where they make the most money, that's all, same as they did when they made sure Michael was hanged, drawn and quartered in their pages a few years back...


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Subject: RE: BS: I am boycotting the MJ obit thread
From: Lizzie Cornish 1
Date: 28 Jun 09 - 07:29 AM

By the way, John, I kept my MJ CDs, but threw away anything to do with Gary Glitter.


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Subject: RE: BS: I am boycotting the MJ obit thread
From: catspaw49
Date: 28 Jun 09 - 07:34 AM

Hawk, I think you're wrong on the TV thing. I watch a lot of TV and all the hoopla doesn't trouble me in the least. I guess the thing is that because I am such a shallow, NASCAR watching, dumbfuck, all of this grave concern over the problems of our celebrity culture are lost on me. Today's race is at Loudon and that's a great one-miler where the racing is always pretty good.

Y'all go on and have a good time. I'll be watching TV and even occasionally tuning in to some hoopla stuff I guess. I dunno' though........after reading all of the brilliantly posted reasoning here about how we're all going to hell because of celebrity worship, I might have to quit cheering a guy for racing a car as I can now see it makes me a shallow and ignorant dickhead.

Spaw


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Subject: RE: BS: I am boycotting the MJ obit thread
From: Mooh
Date: 28 Jun 09 - 07:36 AM

I didn't boycott the original obit thread and I doubt that my stated opinions there will change. When I posted similarly to other forums my contributions were either thanked (Canadian Guitar Forum), or yanked (mandolin cafe, for mean spiritedness). At least we are free to speak our minds here. Being a discussion forum, I see no reason why everything should not be discussed that the people want to discuss, or that even one of us wants to discuss. No topic should be sacrosanct.

Peace, Mooh.


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Subject: RE: BS: I am boycotting the MJ obit thread
From: Little Hawk
Date: 28 Jun 09 - 07:47 AM

You've ezpressed it very well, Spaw. ;-)

The way I figure it, you watch enough NASCAR and shit like that on TV...and your brain eventually turns to chowder. Rancid chowder at that. You are no longer really able to think, emote, or defibrillate, and you are impervious to both commercial messages and physical pain.

This means that someone can walk up stealthily behind you and KICK you HARD in the nuts!........and you don't even react.

This means that you are no longer vulnerable to the woes that assail a more sentient being as he passes through the three-score-and-ten-or-thereabouts state of illusion we term "life".

You may have solved the eternal problem of existence, Spaw! If so....ummm...maybe you should write a book about it. ;-)


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Subject: RE: BS: I am boycotting the MJ obit thread
From: Little Hawk
Date: 28 Jun 09 - 07:54 AM

"No topic should be sacrosanct."

Well, except for...

Winona Ryder.

And Dachshunds.

Anyone who says anything bad about either one of them is an ignorant dumbass and should be banned from the forum for life!


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