BS: ACA Mandate Not a tax

Subject: BS: ACA Mandate Not a tax
From: Jack the Sailor
Date: 04 Jul 12 - 03:27 PM

This guy makes a good argument that it isn't.

He is saying that Roberts said it is a penalty imposed under the laws that give Congress the right to Tax. He points out that the law is far from safe unless the Dems retain the Senate or regain the House.

Subject: RE: BS: ACA Mandate Not a tax
From: Jack the Sailor
Date: 04 Jul 12 - 03:30 PM

This is intended to be a new starting point for conversation. It is not intended to argue with or add to any other thread.

Subject: RE: BS: ACA Mandate Not a tax
From: Jack the Sailor
Date: 04 Jul 12 - 04:36 PM

Think you know ACA? Take the quiz.

Subject: RE: BS: ACA Mandate Not a tax
From: JohnInKansas
Date: 04 Jul 12 - 04:57 PM

Just as one pays a penalty if payment of income taxes is "late," the health insurance mandate imposes a penalty for not purchasing insurance. The penalties in both cases are fairly modest, relative to the amounts on which they're based.

In the case of the income tax penalties, they amount to an "agreed upon rate of interest on an amount owed," and are sufficiently reasonable that even a poor pauper like myself may occasionally find it "convenient" to withhold the tax, or part of it, pending a thorough review of the return to be filed, when there's a question as to the amount of tax owed. If you file for a delay in filing a return, and don't pay the tax, or don't pay all that is eventually due, you pay interest for the time by which the payment is delayed. There may also be a "penalty" fee, in addition to the interest, but the penalties - in the absence of proven criminal intent - are reasonable enough for the decisions to be made according to ordinary "business rationale."

And the interest rate is generally less than if you borrowed from the bank (or a credit card) in order to pay "on time."

The penalties applied to the uninsured under the health insurance act are generally substantially less than most people would pay to purchase insurance at prevailing rates, making it an OPTION for those who have difficulty with buying an insurance policy to bear the risk of an uninsured illness, and pay a lesser amount. They then are liable for any uninsured medical expense, but pay a lesser fee in lieu of insurance by assuming that risk.

In both cases, it seems like as fair a system as any bunch of politicians is likely to be able to come up with.

The penalties (and possible interest) are obviously NOT A TAX according to the conventions applied to any number of other "taxes," for the fees and penalties applied to settlements of them when the person responsible elects to deviate from the schedule.

The two cases here are just the most convenient examples - for now. There are many other similar precedents.

John

Subject: RE: BS: ACA Mandate Not a tax
From: Ebbie
Date: 04 Jul 12 - 05:14 PM

Thanks for the quiz,JtS. I found that I knew them all except for the last one- I wasn't sure what the law planned for undocumented residents. I'm glad for the information.

Subject: RE: BS: ACA Mandate Not a tax
From: dick greenhaus
Date: 04 Jul 12 - 05:41 PM

Don't try to confuse us with facts; it's still Obamacare, dammit!

Subject: RE: BS: ACA Mandate Not a tax
From: GUEST,Guest from Sanity
Date: 05 Jul 12 - 12:13 AM

It's also coercion.... Which legally voids a contract!..Look it up!

GfS

Subject: RE: BS: ACA Mandate Not a tax
From: Jack the Sailor
Date: 05 Jul 12 - 01:27 AM

Legal coercion does not void a contract.

Basically you can't do anything illegal to get a contract and you cannot have a contract that requires the other party to commit and illegal act.

But there is all kinds of coercion going on in the negotiation and enforcement of contracts, strikes, lockouts, penalty clauses, etc etc.

But why am I telling you this? You know everything?

Subject: RE: BS: ACA Mandate Not a tax
From: GUEST,Guest from Sanity
Date: 05 Jul 12 - 02:54 AM

Jack, Coercion to sign a contract is indeed illegal, and makes it non-binding.

GfS

Subject: RE: BS: ACA Mandate Not a tax
From: GUEST,Lighter
Date: 05 Jul 12 - 08:38 AM

It's kinda like a tax and it's kinda like a penalty. The Supreme Court thinks it's more like a tax and is Constitutional under the taxing power of Congress.

But it isn't precisely a tax like other taxes.

Labeling it as simply one or the other just confuses the issue.

And who on earth would want to do that?

Subject: RE: BS: ACA Mandate Not a tax
From: Bobert
Date: 05 Jul 12 - 08:49 AM

In a way it is "coercion"... All fees & taxes are and guess what???

If you listed them all that can be found in America its tens of thousands...

Big deal...

I mean, look at your phone bill or your electric bill, for instance... See those little fees??? If you don't pay them then yer phone goes dead or your lights go out... Hey, so you want to go over that toll bridge but don't want to pay the $1 to do so then strap a bunch on inner tubes on the Escort and paddle it across the river...

I mean, lets get real... Be it the government or private companies... They both need $$$ to offer services...

Anyone who thinks it would be better to turn everything over to for-profit corporations as GfinS, Ayn Rand and Tea-drinkers believe ain't lookin' at the "for-profit" part in "for profit" corporations... They'd fleece us in a New York minute and create a "Little Somalia" reality for the bottom 90% of our population...

Square business...

B~

Subject: RE: BS: ACA Mandate Not a tax
From: GUEST,Guest from Sanity
Date: 05 Jul 12 - 12:04 PM

Did Ayn Rand drink tea? ..I don't waste my time reading her shit, ..and I prefer coffee!

GfS

Subject: RE: BS: ACA Mandate Not a tax
From: Jack the Sailor
Date: 05 Jul 12 - 12:16 PM

Tea dumpers.

Lets say you want to build a toll bridge. Someone owns the land you want to use.

It is perfectly legal and enforceable to threaten legal action, such as taking the owner to court or seizure by eminent domain.

How can you in all conscience constantly criticize others and call them uninformed if you do not know, and are apparently unwilling to learn these very simple things.

Contract law is not nearly as complicated as campaign finance law or the ACA.

Subject: RE: BS: ACA Mandate Not a tax
From: Bobert
Date: 05 Jul 12 - 12:39 PM

Any Rand was the original Tea Partier... She hated the government and envisioned a world not all that different than the one depicted in "Mad Max After the Thunder Dome"... A post-modern society scrambling and fighting over crumbs...

B~

Subject: RE: BS: ACA Mandate Not a tax
From: Jack the Sailor
Date: 05 Jul 12 - 01:01 PM

She was from communist Russia and was decrying the system there. I guess she was warning that it might spread over here. She also taught selfishness as if it were a religion. Basically she said to the individual that their personal greed is good for society. A lot of people want to be greedy without feeling guilty. They buy into that crap. Some evangelize it.

It think there is a real possibility that she was a communist mole trying to destroy our system from within.

To bad for the communists that the Soviet Union won't be around to pick up the pieces after the Tea Party destroys our economic base. :-p

Subject: RE: BS: ACA Mandate Not a tax
From: Jack the Sailor
Date: 05 Jul 12 - 02:19 PM

Returning to the topic of the thread.

NPR points out differences and similarities of ACA and Romney Care.

Subject: RE: BS: ACA Mandate Not a tax
From: GUEST,Guest from Sanity
Date: 05 Jul 12 - 02:20 PM

What pieces??.. The Multinational Corporations will probably recycle them!

...as for the rest, you guys spin so hard, that you should consider getting a job as human drills..maybe even drilling all the way to China!!!

GfS

Subject: RE: BS: ACA Mandate Not a tax
From: Jack the Sailor
Date: 05 Jul 12 - 04:45 PM

States will now be able to all but opt out of Medicaid. ~Bobert

Good news Bob!

Not according to the information I posted on this thread in the "Returning to the Topic" link.

The federal plan would expand Medicaid to cover poor, able-bodied adults who are not parents in addition to poor children, elderly, pregnant women and those with disabilities. [The recent Supreme Court decision gives states the option to opt out of the Medicaid expansion without penalty.] The Massachusetts plan expands Medicaid coverage to more children.

Subject: RE: BS: ACA Mandate Not a tax
From: Bobert
Date: 05 Jul 12 - 04:57 PM

Yes, JtS... Medicaid is expanded but Medicaid is administered by the states, not the federal government... Here in. lies the problem... The states will now have greater control of eligibility requirements... Yes, the federal $$$ will be there but like what happened with the stimulus $$$ some states, as a means of politics, will elect not to play or play at very low levels... I know it's dumb... Just like the train hatin' Republican governors who turned down federal $$$ for high speed rail service... Who lost??? Those states with the dumb governors, that's who...

B~

Subject: RE: BS: ACA Mandate Not a tax
From: Jack the Sailor
Date: 05 Jul 12 - 06:01 PM

Roberts blow back bad for right?

Subject: RE: BS: ACA Mandate Not a tax
From: Bobert
Date: 05 Jul 12 - 07:03 PM

Yup... The current GOP is down to wackos and the very wealthy who lead them around...

Moderates need not apply...

B~

Subject: RE: BS: ACA Mandate Not a tax
From: Songwronger
Date: 05 Jul 12 - 10:23 PM

And a boot to the side of the head is not a kick.