BS: Brexit and other UK politics thread 4

Subject: BS: Brexit and other UK politics thread 4
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 06 Jul 25 - 07:32 AM

I can't see any movement on the old one since February and it was over the 700 post limit anyway so here is a new one :-)

A link to the old one is here but I don't think it will open unless some kind mod can work some magic?

Anyroads, Dick Miles asked the question elsewhere and I think it is worth discussing more opemly. It was whether a left wing party, mooted by Zarah Sultana and involving Jeremy Corbyn wouls split the left wing vote.

I do not think that the party will take off but, if it did, I am not sure how it would affect things. There is no political left wing in government at the moment but there are a number of movements that are further left than the current Labout party. I think that the best we can hope for is that the more socially concious factions will get together and hold a balance of power in a parliament hung between Tories (Conservative) amd Tory light (Labour)

A substantialy more right wing movement (Reform) have gained momentum because the electorate are pissed off with the main parties so, just maybe, a substantially more left wing movement may gain similar traction. Of course the MSM will do their best to nip it in the bud (Telegraph have already started!) but I think that their hold over opinion is starting to slip. Well, I hope so anyway :-)

Over to you...

---

There's a trick so they can be seen but have to stay closed so they don't get added to and disappear again. ---mudelf

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit and other UK politics thread 4
From: Aethelric
Date: 06 Jul 25 - 08:44 AM

A new party will face an uphill battle.
It would, of course, be socialist and therefore most of it’s support would come disgruntled labour supporters who are disillusioned with the current labour government. (Keir Starmer is politically around the same position as John Major).
The Labour leadership would see any new socialist party as threat, much as the SNP attack any prospective pro-independence parties. The tories would be happy at first to see the Labour vote split, but that would change if they thought the new party was a threat.
The media are all run by right wingers or “champagne socialists” and would be against it from the very beginning.
And a big threat will come from inside, rather like the current in-fighting in the Scottish Alba party.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit and other UK politics thread 4
From: The Sandman
Date: 06 Jul 25 - 09:00 AM

New parties in the uk historically have failed, examples Mosleys new party, Social democratic party and the gang of four

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit and other UK politics thread 4
From: Aethelric
Date: 06 Jul 25 - 03:49 PM

The SNP rose from nothing thanks to a dedicated and charismatic leader. But the only one we have is Farage. God help us.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit and other UK politics thread 4
From: The Sandman
Date: 06 Jul 25 - 05:49 PM

Dedicated And charismatic? if you mean Owen,ha ha more like Egotoistical and narcissitic

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit and other UK politics thread 4
From: Doug Chadwick
Date: 07 Jul 25 - 05:49 AM

The SNP rose from nothing thanks to a dedicated and charismatic leader.

.......",,,,,,,

Dedicated And charismatic? if you mean Owen .....

There seems to be some confusion between the Scottish Nationalists and the Social Democrats.


But the only one we have is Farage. God help us.

The new left-wing party being mooted would have Jeremy Corbyn, charasmatic enough some, not least among some of those posting here on Mudcat during his time as Leader of the Labour Party.

DC

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit and other UK politics thread 4
From: The Sandman
Date: 07 Jul 25 - 05:56 AM

you are right, Doug, my mistake

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit and other UK politics thread 4
From: Aethelric
Date: 08 Jul 25 - 07:17 AM

I really like Jeremy Corbyn and I think he would have made a great prime minister. But I don't think he could overcome the general right wing bias of the UK establishment, especially when they employ the dirty tricks routines. Anti-semitism for Jeremy Corbyn, sexual harassment for Alex Salmond.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit and other UK politics thread 4
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 08 Jul 25 - 08:13 AM

I think you’re completely on it there, Aethelric. The Tory Dirty Tricks Brigade were responsible to a very great extent for the disaster of the 2019 GE as far as Labour was concerned. The anti-semitism/terrorist’s friend BS absolutely did for Corbyn following his poor showing in the Andrew Neill TV interview where, instead of being frank and open, he came over as defensive and stone-walling.

I do believe we have a major problem here in the UK, as well as in the US, in that we are in thrall of ‘Personality Politics’, where voters seem to make their voting decisions, not on the policies of the Parties and how likely they are to benefit us as a nation, but on which of the leaders they ‘like best’.

There was a perfect example of this phenomenon on, I think, the Kuenssberg show last Sunday, where one of eight people who voted Labour in the 2024 GE said she would vote Reform UK next time because, having watched Farage on ‘I’m a Celebrity, Get Me Out of Here’, she ‘liked him’ and thought that he’s ‘on our side’, and that he’s ‘different to the Public-school-educated millionaires of the other parties’ (that, despite Farage himself being a Public-school-educated millionaire!).

I do believe that a root-and-branch overhaul of our press and media’s practices is well overdue if we are to ever get away from Personality Politics and back to a policy-driven political scene.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit and other UK politics thread 4
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 08 Jul 25 - 10:31 AM

I liked Corbyn's policies and ethos but he was a weak leader and unable to cope with the right wing onslaught. I know the dirty tricks were wrong but someone stronger (Tony Benn in his day maybe?) would have turned them to his advantage.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit and other UK politics thread 4
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 08 Jul 25 - 10:33 AM

BTW, I don't recall seeing mention of JC as the leader of a new party so I am not sure if we are going off on a tangent there. I have been known to be wrong though. Occasionaly :-D

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit and other UK politics thread 4
From: Nigel Parsons
Date: 08 Jul 25 - 10:55 AM

Dave:
BBC:
Guardian

Cheers

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit and other UK politics thread 4
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 08 Jul 25 - 11:54 AM

”I liked Corbyn's policies and ethos but he was a weak leader and unable to cope with the right wing onslaught. I know the dirty tricks were wrong but someone stronger (Tony Benn in his day maybe?) would have turned them to his advantage.”

Completely agree, Dave. JC’s weak, defensive, stonewalling performance in the TV interview with Andrew Neil was the final nail in his, and Labour’s, coffin. Tony Benn would have made mincemeat of Neil. Very sad.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit and other UK politics thread 4
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 08 Jul 25 - 12:29 PM

Thanks Nigel - Seems to confirm what I thought. The sub heading says

"Corbyn says ‘discussions are ongoing’ after MP’s surprise announcement but he is understood to be reluctant to take title of party leader"

and further into the article it confirms it with

"Corbyn, the MP for Islington North, is understood to be reluctant to take on the title of leader, as he has a preference for collective decision-making, and he believes imposing a hierarchy too soon could risk fragmenting the coalition of like-minded MPs he has spent months encouraging to work together."

I hope it does happen like that. Going back to my opening post I stated "I think that the best we can hope for is that the more socially concious factions will get together and hold a balance of power in a parliament hung between Tories (Conservative) amd Tory light (Labour)"

We can but hope :-)

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit and other UK politics thread 4
From: Aethelric
Date: 08 Jul 25 - 02:46 PM

Cometh the hour, cometh the man - I hope

It sounds catchier than "Cometh the man, cometh the person"

I agree completely with you DtG about holding the balance of power. A proper leader would also be able to instil fear in the other parties. Like Farage frightened Cameron so much he took us out of Europe.

If nothing comes of this new socialist party, then the next government will probably be a Reform/Tory coalition. A complete nightmare.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit and other UK politics thread 4
From: Nigel Parsons
Date: 08 Jul 25 - 07:36 PM

General polls at present (and I no longer trust polls) seem to suggest that Reform will garner the most seats, possibly even enough to be a 'majority'
GE prediction

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit and other UK politics thread 4
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 09 Jul 25 - 03:20 AM

God Help the UK if that nightmare scenario comes to pass.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit and other UK politics thread 4
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 09 Jul 25 - 03:20 AM

Heaven help us!

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit and other UK politics thread 4
From: Rain Dog
Date: 09 Jul 25 - 03:35 AM

It is hard for new parties to win seats under our present outdated voting system. Our present government have a huge number of seats despite the majority of those who voted not wanting a Labour government. I don't expect the present government to do anything about the voting system. They do have a lot of other problems to deal with.

Reform are now entering an interesting stage of their development. They are now in charge of a number of councils and people will be able to judge their performance. They will find that it is not an easy task.

Farage would like to be PM but he needs a party to do that. His problem is that he is not keen on party politics. He wants to be a one man band, to be in control of everything and everyone but he has little to no interest in organising it. I don't think he shared many toys as a child.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit and other UK politics thread 4
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 09 Jul 25 - 06:55 AM

”Farage would like to be PM but he needs a party to do that. His problem is that he is not keen on party politics. He wants to be a one man band, to be in control of everything and everyone but he has little to no interest in organising it. I don't think he shared many toys as a child.”

The Trump of UK politics. Be afraid, be very afraid!

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit and other UK politics thread 4
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 09 Jul 25 - 10:16 AM

The more I think about it, the more I like the idea of an alliance of progressive thinkers to oppose the conservative (small c) thinking we are stuck with currently. People have shown that they are, in general, pissed off with current politics so they are looking to scammers and grifters like Farage and deformed UK to provide an alternative. As long as people can be shown a genuine alternative, maybe they will not be conned as easily. Big ask, I know, but I still have faith in most people :-)

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit and other UK politics thread 4
From: Aethelric
Date: 09 Jul 25 - 10:31 AM

There are councils in the UK where independents have allied with a party to form an administration. My own county (Cornwall) is ran by a Lib Dem/Independent alliance.

This really upset Reform who got the highest number of seats but not a majority. The other councillors would not work with Reform.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit and other UK politics thread 4
From: MaJoC the Filk
Date: 09 Jul 25 - 10:49 AM

Do I need to reprise my "lo! a strong man" jeremiad? it's in the current or previous Convicted Felon thread somewhere*, but applies equally here, or anywhere else the current Strong Man rises to the top of the septic tank. The Meeja's tendency to point the finger of scoff from a safe distance at anyone in the top seat Does Not Help.

* I could have sworn I put it down somewhere, but can I find it now --- ? It's official: I'm getting old.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit and other UK politics thread 4
From: Nigel Parsons
Date: 19 Jul 25 - 10:24 AM

Keir Starmer: Doesn't play well with others.
Doesn't play well with Conservatives,
Doesn't play well with Reform,
Doesn't even play well with his own party.

Whips being removed left, right, and centre. (or should that be 'left, left, and even further left'?)

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit and other UK politics thread 4
From: MaJoC the Filk
Date: 19 Jul 25 - 09:21 PM

Keir Starmer's govt suffers from the major problem that they were in opposition when de Pfeffel's shower were the alleged Government. The best whetstone to sharpen a party-in-opposition against is a competent party-in-power.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit and other UK politics thread 4
From: The Sandman
Date: 20 Jul 25 - 03:09 AM

How much of a threat, to Starmer, is the new party led by Corbyn?

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit and other UK politics thread 4
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 20 Jul 25 - 04:33 AM

Why don’t you set the ball rolling by telling us how much of a threat you think it is, and in what way(s)?

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit and other UK politics thread 4
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 20 Jul 25 - 05:08 AM

There are a couple of things wrong with your question, Dick,

Firstly, there is no new party yet and, secondly, as and if it comes about, the leadership is not decided.

You seem to have got the question from this BBC article but if you actualy read the article you will see that there is nothing but speculation as yet

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit and other UK politics thread 4
From: The Sandman
Date: 20 Jul 25 - 12:59 PM

BACKWOODSMAN Why should i set the ball rolling, perhaps I am interested in other peoples opinions before i form a definite opinion

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit and other UK politics thread 4
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 20 Jul 25 - 01:06 PM

”BACKWOODSMAN Why should i set the ball rolling, perhaps I am interested in other peoples opinions before i form a definite opinion”

Why not?

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit and other UK politics thread 4
From: The Sandman
Date: 20 Jul 25 - 01:13 PM

Because I have not made my mind up yet.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit and other UK politics thread 4
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 20 Jul 25 - 01:18 PM

Perhaps neither have the rest of us. Which was why I invited you to set the ball rolling.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit and other UK politics thread 4
From: The Sandman
Date: 20 Jul 25 - 01:33 PM

Perhaps neither have the rest of us. QUOTE BACK WOODSMAN.
Who else do you speak for? are you a member of the reform party, who are these other people you represent

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit and other UK politics thread 4
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 20 Jul 25 - 01:33 PM

FWIW, my opinion is the same as DtG’s - that there is insufficient firm data to enable anyone to form an opinion.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit and other UK politics thread 4
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 20 Jul 25 - 01:41 PM

”Who else do you speak for? are you a member of the reform party, who are these other people you represent”

I haven’t claimed to speak for or represent anyone else - I simply proposed a possible hypothesis - but thanks for confirming my suspicion that you’re just pulling your usual trolling stunts and looking for a fight. Tough shit - you’ll have to find another victim.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit and other UK politics thread 4
From: The Sandman
Date: 20 Jul 25 - 02:08 PM

you used the plural word "us ". that is plural, which suggest you are representing other people as well as yourself.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit and other UK politics thread 4
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 20 Jul 25 - 02:56 PM

GTFU.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit and other UK politics thread 4
From: Nigel Parsons
Date: 20 Jul 25 - 03:05 PM

Majoc: "Keir Starmer's govt suffers from the major problem that they were in opposition when de Pfeffel's shower were the alleged Government. The best whetstone to sharpen a party-in-opposition against is a competent party-in-power."

So even Starmer's ineptitude is the fault of the Conservatives?
What a strange world you live in.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit and other UK politics thread 4
From: The Sandman
Date: 20 Jul 25 - 04:54 PM

Starmer's ineptitude is his own fault Every body is responsible for their own actions including Backwoodsman

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit and other UK politics thread 4
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 21 Jul 25 - 04:55 AM

I don't think we can blame the Tories for Starmer's ineptitude but I do think that Johnson started to downward slide of bad leaders. Hopefully the next PM, of whatever flavour, will not be a bumbling populist that has no idea how to govern. That rules out Badenuff of course...

We had that dreadful time when the blonde buffoon's premiership coincided with the turnips first presidential term in the US. Surely that perfect storm can never happen again can it?

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit and other UK politics thread 4
From: The Sandman
Date: 21 Jul 25 - 05:23 AM

I think Cameron started the slide downwards

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit and other UK politics thread 4
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 21 Jul 25 - 10:23 AM

Cameron failed abysmally with the Brixit fiasco but until then I don't recall him being particularly inept - It was like Blair's Iraq cock up. One mistake does not make them inept but Johnson did not get anything right and I don't think any Prime Minister since has done much better.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit and other UK politics thread 4
From: The Sandman
Date: 21 Jul 25 - 10:43 AM

David Cameron, the former Prime Minister of the United Kingdom, made several significant mistakes and miscalculations during his time in office (2010-2016) that had lasting impacts on British politics. Here are some of the most notable:

    The 2015 EU Referendum: Cameron's decision to hold an in-out referendum on EU membership in 2016 was intended to settle divisions within the Conservative Party and appease Eurosceptics. However, he underestimated the strength of the Leave campaign and the discontent among voters regarding the EU, which ultimately led to the Brexit vote and significant political turmoil.
    Handling of the Scottish Independence Referendum: While the 2014 referendum ultimately resulted in a vote to remain in the UK, Cameron's approach to the campaign was criticized. Many believed he did not sufficiently engage with Scottish issues or the concerns of the Scottish electorate, which fueled nationalist sentiment and led to increased calls for independence.
    Austerity Measures: Cameron's government implemented severe austerity measures following the 2008 financial crisis. While aimed at reducing the national deficit, these policies led to widespread public discontent, protests, and criticism regarding their impact on public services and social welfare. The long-term economic effects and social consequences of these measures have been debated extensively.
    Failure to Control Party Factions: Cameron struggled to manage the divisions within the Conservative Party, particularly between moderates and hardline Eurosceptics. This division became increasingly pronounced leading up to the Brexit referendum and contributed to his eventual resignation.
    The "Big Society" Initiative: Cameron's vision of the "Big Society," which aimed to empower communities and reduce the role of the state, was seen by many as vague and poorly executed. It failed to gain traction and was criticized for lacking a clear strategy or sufficient funding.
    Response to the Syrian Civil War and Refugee Crisis: Cameron faced criticism for his handling of the Syrian conflict, particularly regarding military interventions and the UK's response to the refugee crisis. His decision to intervene in Libya in 2011 also faced backlash due to the subsequent instability in the region.
    Overconfidence in Polling: Leading up to the 2015 general election, Cameron and his advisors were overly confident in their polling data, believing they could secure a majority. While they did win a majority, the confidence in polling led to complacency in campaign strategy and engagement with key voter groups.

These miscalculations and mistakes contributed to significant political challenges during and after Cameron's tenure, particularly with the rise of Brexit and the subsequent leadership changes within the Conservative Party.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit and other UK politics thread 4
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 21 Jul 25 - 10:58 AM

Yes Dick, all PMs have made mistakes but not all have been inept. And please provide the source of your C&Ps. The above is obviously not your own work.

I located a Guardian article which I think provides a good balance of views.

Sub title is "Risk-taker, pragmatist, placater – or all of the above? Six leading historians assess Cameron’s aims, achievements and failures as prime minister"

I don't think it is particulary an appeal to authority as it does give half a dozen different views

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit and other UK politics thread 4
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 22 Jul 25 - 06:08 PM

I am not a big a fan of Angela Rayner, other than I think she is more left than the rest of Starmer's crew and she supported my choice (Rebecca Long-Bailey) in the leaderhip election. But I am looking forward to seeing her in action against James (not so) Cleverly. I suspect mincemeat will be made and Badenuff will soon regret her choice.

Just my opinion of course.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit and other UK politics thread 4
From: The Sandman
Date: 23 Jul 25 - 02:58 AM

https://www.theguardian.com/society/2025/jul/22/completely-unprecedented-wes-streeting-resident-doctors-strike?utm_source=firefo
link to Guardian article about Doctors and strike

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit and other UK politics thread 4
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 23 Jul 25 - 11:52 AM

John Crace of the Guardian made me laugh because I had not heard not so Cleverly bing referred to as Sir Jim Dim before :-)

Seems to support my previous thoughts anyway

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit and other UK politics thread 4
From: Nigel Parsons
Date: 24 Jul 25 - 09:05 AM

Corbyn confirms new party
per BBC news

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit and other UK politics thread 4
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 25 Jul 25 - 03:29 AM

They are asking for suggestions for a name

Party McPartyface anyone? :-D

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit and other UK politics thread 4
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 25 Jul 25 - 05:18 AM

FFS Dave, don’t - there are people out there daft enough to go for that…!! ;-)

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit and other UK politics thread 4
From: Fred
Date: 25 Jul 25 - 08:03 AM

I could probably think of a few but I value my membership - to this forum, I mean :)

-F

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit and other UK politics thread 4
From: The Sandman
Date: 25 Jul 25 - 12:07 PM

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit and other UK politics thread 4
From: The Sandman - PM
Date: 20 Jul 25 - 03:09 AM

How much of a threat, to Starmer, is the new party led by Corbyn?
I think they are likely to win a number of seats enough to prevent Labour be in government

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit and other UK politics thread 4
From: Doug Chadwick
Date: 25 Jul 25 - 12:47 PM

I think they are likely to win a number of seats enough to prevent Labour be in government

I suspect that any seats that Labour might lose to Corbyn's new party would be more than outweighed by seats lost by the Conservatives to Reform. If Labour lose the next election, it will have more to do with their lacklustre performance this time round.

DC

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit and other UK politics thread 4
From: The Sandman
Date: 25 Jul 25 - 04:44 PM

you would know

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit and other UK politics thread 4
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 25 Jul 25 - 05:14 PM

”I suspect that any seats that Labour might lose to Corbyn's new party would be more than outweighed by seats lost by the Conservatives to Reform.”

You have a very good point there, Doug. If the new Party grow into a substantial, credible organisation (and I see no reason why they shouldn’t), the next GE could be very interesting indeed!

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit and other UK politics thread 4
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 25 Jul 25 - 06:34 PM

Bear in mind that the "new party" seems likely to be an alliance of small progressive factions and, as I said earlier, that should be welcomed. However the fact that the media are already lining it up to fail by calling it Corbyn's party is not a good thing.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit and other UK politics thread 4
From: The Sandman
Date: 26 Jul 25 - 02:10 AM

The media support establishment politics, not radical politicians

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit and other UK politics thread 4
From: Doug Chadwick
Date: 26 Jul 25 - 02:48 AM

you would know

No, Sandman, I don't know. That is why I said "I suspect ...." and "If Labour lose ....".

I stand by my comment that the Labour government's performance to date, under Starmer, has been lacklustre.

DC

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit and other UK politics thread 4
From: The Sandman
Date: 26 Jul 25 - 04:21 AM

Yes, I agree.
Doug Chadwick suspects, excellent

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit and other UK politics thread 4
From: Nigel Parsons
Date: 28 Jul 25 - 02:19 PM

”I suspect that any seats that Labour might lose to Corbyn's new party would be more than outweighed by seats lost by the Conservatives to Reform.”
(Doug Chadwick)

You have a very good point there, Doug. If the new Party grow into a substantial, credible organisation (and I see no reason why they shouldn’t), the next GE could be very interesting indeed!
Backwoodsman

And that's before counting in the seats that Labour could lose to Reform! (or those the Conservatives could lose . . .)

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit and other UK politics thread 4
From: The Sandman
Date: 30 Jul 25 - 02:55 AM

link from council estate media about growth of new party corbyn and sultana
https://www.facebook.com/CouncilEstateMedia

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit and other UK politics thread 4
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 30 Jul 25 - 05:19 AM

Could be interesting if a right wing mob and a left wing mob both become popular. Things have swung to the right becuase both major parties have altered their policies in line with the populism of deform UK. Will the new alliance cause a swing back to the left? Sadly, Fartarse has a start on whoever leads the new lot and the tosspots who own the press are only interested in keeping their fortunes intact so they love the chaos that he causes.

Of course we will not be able to tell until there have been a few local elections and the real test will be the next GE. I cannot see any minority party, however popular, getting enough support to form a government in 4 years time.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit and other UK politics thread 4
From: Nigel Parsons
Date: 30 Jul 25 - 06:09 AM

Dave: Of course we will not be able to tell until there have been a few local elections and the real test will be the next GE. I cannot see any minority party, however popular, getting enough support to form a government in 4 years time.

Of course, the Welsh Senedd elections next year could provide an earlier test. Labour have led the Senedd since its inception in 1999.
If that ceases to be the case it will be a major upset, and could be a guide to what will happen in UK a few years later.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit and other UK politics thread 4
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 30 Jul 25 - 07:01 AM

Ooooh - Didn't know that. Thanks Nigel

I'll order some popcorn :-D

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit and other UK politics thread 4
From: Nigel Parsons
Date: 30 Jul 25 - 11:47 AM

7 May 2026, Same day for Scottish Parliament elections, and some English local elections delayed from 2025 (reasons for the delays are subject to debate)

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit and other UK politics thread 4
From: The Sandman
Date: 03 Aug 25 - 01:33 AM

There are many people who want to see a redistribution of wealth,they are apprantly joining the new party in droves

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit and other UK politics thread 4
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 03 Aug 25 - 12:05 PM

I hope that the new movement pulls politics in general back towards the centre. We have been swinging far too much to the right over the last few years and we need pulling back. I don't see a severe swing to the left happening and I do not think it would be good if that did happen. History has proven that extremes do not work. Cooperation and compromise between all parties seems a good idea with responsible capitalism, workers rights and social justice being high on the agenda.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit and other UK politics thread 4
From: Fred
Date: 03 Aug 25 - 03:18 PM

I've said it here before, I don't vote and have no intention of doing. It's been brought about by politicians saying one thing and doing another, bringing about a lack of trust.

If I were to vote, I'd want to know what I was voting FOR.

-F

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit and other UK politics thread 4
From: The Sandman
Date: 03 Aug 25 - 04:31 PM

Dave,apparently 600 thousand have joined the new party, PRESUMABLY they think the Labour government is too right wing, not too left wing

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit and other UK politics thread 4
From: Rain Dog
Date: 04 Aug 25 - 02:38 AM

They have not joined the party, they have signed up for future updates. It is an impressive number though.

The following article is worth a read

How significant is Corbyn and Sultana’s 600,000 sign ups to their new party?

Who remembers Enough is Enough?

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit and other UK politics thread 4
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 04 Aug 25 - 10:19 AM

I'm pretty sure that is part of what I said, Dick

I hope that the new movement pulls politics in general back towards the centre. We have been swinging far too much to the right over the last few years and we need pulling back.

And I would repeat that it is not a new party but rather an alliance of other progresive, as opposed to conservative (small c), factions within government. Corbyn has also said that it will be led by the members rather than from the top so I am not sure if 'Corbyn's party' will ever be the correct term. I must say that I like the idea of an alliance against the stodge that mainstream politics has become. I would like to see it work but only time will tell.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit and other UK politics thread 4
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 04 Aug 25 - 10:22 AM

Fred - Yes, I can see where you are coming from but please don't give up on voting. Use it or lose it as they say :-) If you cannot vote for someone vote against them. There are usualy some candidates at most elections that can rattle the bars of the big boys. If that fails - go and spoil your vote by writing what you have just said across it. Spoiled votes have to be read and counted.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit and other UK politics thread 4
From: Fred
Date: 04 Aug 25 - 10:37 AM

Good point, Dave, and well worth considering :)

-F

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit and other UK politics thread 4
From: The Sandman
Date: 06 Aug 25 - 03:15 AM

https://www.bbc.com/news/articles/c3dpkvkkjjno link to BBC About labour selling off allotments

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit and other UK politics thread 4
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 06 Aug 25 - 05:14 AM

Our local council (swings between Tory and Liberal control) has sold off most of our local allotments. In fairness to the council, they were mostly un-let, un-tended, and overgrown, neglected wildernesses. Now, at least they are being used, although not for growing food.

Allotment-keeping, over the past thirty years or so, seems very much to have fallen from favour in this area.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit and other UK politics thread 4
From: Fred
Date: 06 Aug 25 - 06:05 AM

Allotment-wise, it's the same here in Colsterworth.

We had two allotment sites, one at the southern edge and another at the northern. But nature has claimed them back.

I'll say that people lost interest but my dad would've said "They see it as being too much like hard work, lad".

-F

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit and other UK politics thread 4
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 06 Aug 25 - 06:53 AM

Allotment ownership and usage still going strong here in Airedale

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit and other UK politics thread 4
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 06 Aug 25 - 12:21 PM

Good to hear Dave. I have very fond memories of going with my grandad to his allotment (or ‘up garden’ as he referred to it) and ‘helping’ him. I use the term ‘helping’ very loosely - I doubt he felt he was being helped, but he was very patient with his little grandson! ;-)

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit and other UK politics thread 4
From: Fred
Date: 06 Aug 25 - 02:17 PM

My childhood allotment memories were altogether different.

I was 6 years old, and dug up veg in an allotment. Taking it to a door, I asked "Buy some vegetables, mister?" "Arr boy, they look good 'uns!"

It soon came to light that the man had bought his own veg for half a crown!

I had to give the money back and was given the slipper by my mum.

The good old days!

-F

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit and other UK politics thread 4
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 12 Aug 25 - 03:26 AM

We don't have an equivalent of the ICE thugs. Yet. We don't need them when over 500 people can be arrested at a peaceful demo for simply wearing the wrong t-shirts or waving the wrong banner.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit and other UK politics thread 4
From: The Sandman
Date: 12 Aug 25 - 04:26 AM

I agree with above post

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit and other UK politics thread 4
From: Aethelric
Date: 12 Aug 25 - 07:42 AM

DtG and Sandman

The Thought Police will be knocking at your door!

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit and other UK politics thread 4
From: The Sandman
Date: 12 Aug 25 - 10:07 AM

perish the thought

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit and other UK politics thread 4
From: The Sandman
Date: 14 Aug 25 - 01:56 PM

Protests in the Cotswolds, against J D Vance holidaying in the area, anyone know any more

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit and other UK politics thread 4
From: MaJoC the Filk
Date: 15 Aug 25 - 09:15 AM

> Protests in the Cotswolds, against J D Vance holidaying
> in the area

So *that*'s where the Groom of the Stool got to. We'd attend, but we're fresh out of rotten eggs.

.... No whiff or whisper on the news of said protests, says Herself. Surprise.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit and other UK politics thread 4
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 15 Aug 25 - 06:43 PM

I read about him being banned from a pub following protests by staff and customers but it's late and I am not looking it up now.

Google it yourselves!

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit and other UK politics thread 4
From: The Sandman
Date: 16 Aug 25 - 02:28 AM

is it possible to discuss, the subject i a polite manner

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit and other UK politics thread 4
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 16 Aug 25 - 03:54 AM

Is it possible to discuss the subject in a manner that uses the correct English grammar, spellings, capitalisation and punctuation?

:-D

It's morning now and I can look up the pub story. It was reported by some daily rags but Snopes have concluded that it is just rumour. Be nice if it was true anyway :-)

Did 'staff mutiny' force Cotswolds pub to turn away JD Vance?

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit and other UK politics thread 4
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 16 Aug 25 - 06:10 AM

”Is it possible to discuss the subject in a manner that uses the correct English grammar, spellings, capitalisation and punctuation?”

Errrrmm, some of us do, Dave!

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit and other UK politics thread 4
From: The Sandman
Date: 16 Aug 25 - 06:45 AM

Is it possible to discuss the subject in a manner that uses the correct English grammar, spelling, capitalization and punctuation? "quote, Gnome.
Gnome,The word "spelling" can be singular or plural, depending on the context. Generally, "spelling" is used as a singular noun referring to the act of forming words correctly.
pot calling the kettle black.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit and other UK politics thread 4
From: The Sandman
Date: 16 Aug 25 - 06:49 AM

Gnomes actual quote,
Is it possible to discuss the subject in a manner that uses the correct English grammar, spellings, capitalization and punctuation?
The word "spelling" can be singular or plural, depending on the context. Generally, "spelling" is used as a singular noun referring to the act of forming words correctly.
spelling not spellings and since we are on a forum used by Americans capitaliZation

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit and other UK politics thread 4
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 16 Aug 25 - 09:21 AM

A Google search produced the following explanation…

”The plural of "spelling" can be either "spelling" or "spellings", depending on the context. When referring to the general concept or a single instance of spelling, the plural is "spelling." When referring to multiple different types or instances of spelling, "spellings" is the appropriate plural form according to WordHippo and Preply.”

I read Dave’s comment as referring to ‘multiple different types or instances of spelling’, and I therefore see no problem with his use of ‘spellings’.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit and other UK politics thread 4
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 16 Aug 25 - 12:14 PM

BWM - Did you see the comment that inspired my post?

is it possible to discuss, the subject i a polite manner

If not, you can have one guess who posted it :-D

Dick

One spelling
Multiple spellings

Seemples.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit and other UK politics thread 4
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 16 Aug 25 - 12:35 PM

I did, Dave - hence my two later comments in response to Sandman’s responses which are, quite simply, wrong.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit and other UK politics thread 4
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 16 Aug 25 - 12:39 PM

Talking of the original comment, what was it in reference to?

Anything to do with UK politics?

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit and other UK politics thread 4
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 16 Aug 25 - 12:57 PM

I haven’t a clue what it was about Dave! Maybe it’s on the wrong thread?

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit and other UK politics thread 4
From: Aethelric
Date: 18 Aug 25 - 12:45 PM

I wonder if Starmer or any of the European leaders will show a bit of backbone when they meet Trump.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit and other UK politics thread 4
From: The Sandman
Date: 18 Aug 25 - 01:36 PM

Doubtful.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit and other UK politics thread 4
From: Fred
Date: 18 Aug 25 - 02:12 PM

Well I don't see why they should, they've never shown any before lol.

Sorry, couldn't resist ;)

-F

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit and other UK politics thread 4
From: Fred
Date: 18 Aug 25 - 02:51 PM

Would not should, damn predictive text!

-F

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit and other UK politics thread 4
From: The Sandman
Date: 20 Aug 25 - 08:10 AM

Its not over till the fat person pontificates.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit and other UK politics thread 4
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 27 Aug 25 - 09:20 AM

An interesting FB Reel, I believe expressing perfectly the view of the silent majority of UK-ers, those who don’t have any intention of voting for the Reform UK fascists, those who don’t shag flags, those who don’t allow themselves to be triggered by Rage-Bait SM threads…

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit and other UK politics thread 4
From: Nigel Parsons
Date: 28 Aug 25 - 12:57 PM

Yvette Cooper seeks to overturn/end the ruling about the Bell Hotel.

Does this give us a new definition for 'Bell-end'?

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit and other UK politics thread 4
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 28 Aug 25 - 03:18 PM

LOL Nigel!

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit and other UK politics thread 4
From: The Sandman
Date: 02 Sep 25 - 05:35 AM

I find the display of patriotic flags silly.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit and other UK politics thread 4
From: The Sandman
Date: 02 Sep 25 - 03:56 PM

I am pissed off about the possible abolition of paper tickets on trains, so we are all expected to buy expensive mobile phones and put apps on them, what about old people and poor people who cannot afford expensive mobiles.
In Ireland old people travel on all public transport for free.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit and other UK politics thread 4
From: MaJoC the Filk
Date: 04 Sep 25 - 12:17 PM

Hear hear, Sandman. My immediate reaction on reading about this was: "Thus, one misstep at a time, we become acclimatised to the Surveillance State."

We've refused, multiple times, to have (*akkh* *phht*) smart meters installed for gas and electricity. When we found recently that our water meter was broken (I'll save the balance of that saga for later), I was annoyed that the replacment was allegedly smart; then highly amused to hear that they couldn't read it remotely because it uses a Vodaphone cellphone chip, and Vodaphone don't have any masts round here.

Must go .... champagne being opened.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit and other UK politics thread 4
From: The Sandman
Date: 05 Sep 25 - 02:30 AM

Dorries defects to Reform. just Anther self seeking career politician let s hope she disappears in to a political black hole

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit and other UK politics thread 4
From: Nigel Parsons
Date: 05 Sep 25 - 07:05 AM

"Dorries defects to Reform. just Anther self seeking career politician let's hope she disappears in to a political black hole"

If we're discussing self-serving (or even 'self-seeking') career politicians, is it time to mention Angela Rayner?

Or is this thread only for bashing the right?

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit and other UK politics thread 4
From: Nigel Parsons
Date: 05 Sep 25 - 07:25 AM

*Breaking News* Within 10 minutes of posting I hear on the midday news that she's resigned. That must be the power of the Mudcat ;)

BBC

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit and other UK politics thread 4
From: Nigel Parsons
Date: 05 Sep 25 - 07:31 AM

From The Telegraph (online):

In his letter to the Prime Minister, Sir Laurie Magnus, the independent adviser on ministerial interests, said: “It is highly unfortunate [...] that Ms Rayner failed to pay the correct rate of SDLT on this purchase, particularly given her status and responsibilities as the Secretary of State for Housing, Communities and Local Government and as Deputy Prime Minister.

“She believed that she relied on the legal advice she had received, but unfortunately did not heed the caution contained within it, which acknowledged that it did not constitute expert tax advice and which suggested that expert advice be sought.”

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit and other UK politics thread 4
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 05 Sep 25 - 07:54 AM

But she has had the decency and strength of character to resign, Nigel - unlike numerous ministers over the past fourteen years of Tory mis-rule who, when caught with their metaphorical trousers down, hung on until parliamentary and media pressure forced their PM to sack them.

And all for £40,000 - what about the billions handed by the Tories to their backers, friends, pub landlords, and fellow Tories, in fake PPE ‘contracts’ during the Covid pandemic?

Words like ‘glasshouses’ and ‘stones’ spring very readily to mind.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit and other UK politics thread 4
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 05 Sep 25 - 08:08 AM

I think she was wrong to not pay the duty in full. I susoect it was due to bad advice but, in her position, she should have checked so I think it is right that she has resigned.

The hypocricy of the media is astounding though. Where was the outrage when Boris was decorating his flat or when Rishi Sunak shielded his wife's non-dom tax status?

Has it always been this bad? I am sure that politicians were not as sleazey in the past but maybe I am looking through rose coloured specs!

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit and other UK politics thread 4
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 05 Sep 25 - 08:59 AM

”Or is this thread only for bashing the right?”

Well, Nigel, over the past 14 years of Tory mis-rule, they’ve made themselves such easy targets, haven’t they? And Kemi Badenough is doing her best (or perhaps I mean worst?) to keep up the tradition… ;-)

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit and other UK politics thread 4
From: Rain Dog
Date: 05 Sep 25 - 09:15 AM

”Or is this thread only for bashing the right?”

Good question. In the past it would seem that posters have driven away those who might have a different view from themselves. BUT we should always remember that it is only a handful of people who do post here anyway.

The Rayner resignation is likely to cause further turmoil within the Labour party when tbey should be concentrating on running the country. Sad but true.

In this day and age all politicians,regardless of party, have to appear whiter than white. Not an easy task. Makes me wonder why anyone would take on the job.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit and other UK politics thread 4
From: The Sandman
Date: 05 Sep 25 - 09:54 AM

rayner is right wing so is starmer they are establishment stooges, starmer the man who wanted to get rid of pensioners so they died of hypothermia, a right winger pretending to be a member of what was once a socialist party, he is no more left wing than sir alec douglas home

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit and other UK politics thread 4
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 05 Sep 25 - 10:47 AM

From Attila the Stockbroker on Facebook

"Angela Rayner's resigned. Yes, she appears to have made a serious error of judgement. Yes, she's deputy prime minister in what is in my opinion the most disappointing Labour government in my lifetime.

But her hounding by a right wing press whose billionaire owners dodge ludicrous amounts of tax as a matter of course and ignore far more reprehensible financial activities pursued by people whose politics they promote is hypocritical and disgusting. Just today, it has been revealed that Farage uses a private company to pay less tax on his media earnings.

All decency, all intelligence, all compassion have been leeched from British politics. We're a banana republic with a king. Rayner, to me, is basically a woman with a good heart who wants to do her best for people from the same background she rose from - and has had the misfortune to try and do that at the very worst period in modern political history.

The ultimate irony of our age is that many of the people who cheer her downfall the loudest will be people living in a similar situation to where she began, sneering at someone who was once one of their own while cheering the tax-avoiding, Barbour-wearing, billionaire-backed Farage.

I did my best to win them over for a long time, but I have walked away from such people now."

Best summary I have seen

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit and other UK politics thread 4
From: Rain Dog
Date: 05 Sep 25 - 11:22 AM

Whereas back in the real world, Farage does not appear to be doing anything illegal. I personally think the tax laws in the UK need to be drastically revised & simplified. We might ask ourselves why successive governments, of both parties, refuse to do this.

Rayner had to resign as Secretary of State for Housing, Communities and Local Government. She probably could have kept on as Deputy Prime Minister. It would have avoided the needless internal party politics. The majority of people do not belong to any party and have little interest in internal bickering.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit and other UK politics thread 4
From: Nigel Parsons
Date: 05 Sep 25 - 11:24 AM

BWM:
"But she has had the decency and strength of character to resign, Nigel - unlike numerous ministers over the past fourteen years of Tory mis-rule who, when caught with their metaphorical trousers down, hung on until parliamentary and media pressure forced their PM to sack them."

She has had plenty of time to resign since this whole affair first came to light. She delayed that until it had come to the point, with the report by Sir Laurie Magnus in, she had to resign, or be sacked. If you believe that that is a measure of her 'decency and strength of character' then we are clearly using different languages.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit and other UK politics thread 4
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 05 Sep 25 - 11:50 AM

Nigel:

She referred herself to Sir Laurie Magnus, the Prime Minister's independent adviser on ministerial interests, for investigation, and awaited his decision on whether she had broken the ministerial code. When his decision confirmed that she had, she resigned without further delay.

That seems perfectly reasonable, honest, and decent AFAIC. If it seems otherwise to you, I find that very strange indeed, coming from a supporter of a Party with such an appalling record of dishonesty over its past 14 years in government. ‘One rule for you, a different rule for us’ seems to be one of the strongest principles of the Tories and their supporters.

Indeed we do appear to use different languages, and we seem to have different standards where judgment of parliamentary behaviour is concerned, thank goodness.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit and other UK politics thread 4
From: MaJoC the Filk
Date: 05 Sep 25 - 01:30 PM

The One True Standard Way To Resign: Deny everything, hang on by fingernails to current post, and wait for the Prime Minister to utter the keyphrase "full and unconditional backing". Wait a fortnight more for the baying in the tabloids to become deafening, and *then* decide to spend more time with directorships spouse and children.

That's been the tradition since the days of Maggie Hatchett. Why change it? Has someone mislaid the pearl-handled revolver that used to get mentioned on such occasions?

As an aside, the baying in the Meeja has fully lived down to my expectations of them, and then some. No new depth unplumbed, an' all that.

PS: Extra points, backwoodsman, for proving that it's not just me that remembers "thirteen years of Tory misrule".

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit and other UK politics thread 4
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 05 Sep 25 - 01:36 PM

And I noticed you studiously avoided commenting on your own Party’s members’ errrrmmm…’indiscretions’…Nigel. Here are just a few to remind you…

Jeremy Hunt - ‘forgot’ seven flats he owned
Geoffrey Cox ‘forgot’ to declare £400,000
Ian Duncan Smith ‘forgot’ a company paid him £25,000
Theresa Villiers ‘forgot’ she owned £70,000 of Shell shares
Zahawi ‘forgot’ to pay £4.8 million in taxes

And that’s without mentioning Michelle Mone’s 12 million contract for non-existent PPE, or Matt Hancock handing a contract to his local pub landlord for non-existent PPE, or any of the other fake contracts handed out by Tory ministers to their friends and benefactors.

So I’m not about to take any lessons from a Tory-supporter getting all ‘holier-than-thou’ and finger-pointey about Angela Rayner.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit and other UK politics thread 4
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 05 Sep 25 - 01:37 PM

@MaJoC the Filk - my last post was for Nigel, not you of course!

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit and other UK politics thread 4
From: MaJoC the Filk
Date: 05 Sep 25 - 04:16 PM

No problems, BWM. It permits me to expand on something (here's one I misdrafted earlier), while Herself watches Angela Rayner's Wake And Autopsy Show on BBC News 24:

All summer, we've had ManFrog's and Agent Orange's one-downmanship ploys dominating the news cycle in Air Strip One; now the Meeja is suddenly fixated on poor Angela, to the exclusion of Outrage of the Week from Washington, and even the atrocities in Gaza. Curious: anyone would think it was all carefully timed to throw gravel into the Downing Street gearbox, right at the beginning of a difficult Parliamentary session. But then I'm forgetting the Pavlovian tendencies of headline writers: "Hold the front page! a Labour politician farted before the Queen!"*

.... I'd best leave it there awhile.

* "I'm sorry, Your Majesty: I didn't know it was your turn."

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit and other UK politics thread 4
From: The Sandman
Date: 06 Sep 25 - 02:03 AM

What has been going on in Epping

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit and other UK politics thread 4
From: The Sandman
Date: 06 Sep 25 - 02:21 AM

It looks like the far right are stirring up the riots, a bit more important than Rayner, particularly since she has resigned.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit and other UK politics thread 4
From: Nigel Parsons
Date: 06 Sep 25 - 04:03 PM

BWM:
She referred herself to Sir Laurie Magnus, the Prime Minister's independent adviser on ministerial interests

Only after days of Conservatives insisting that she should be referred.
She 'referred herself' only once it was clear to her that she had no other option, and knowing that the findings would be against her.

That was hardly a noble option.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit and other UK politics thread 4
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 06 Sep 25 - 04:40 PM

Still no comment about the examples of ‘forgetfulness’ from your mob, Nigel? I repeat, ‘glasshouses’ and ‘stones’. What a strange set of double-standards you Tories seem to live by.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit and other UK politics thread 4
From: The Sandman
Date: 06 Sep 25 - 05:22 PM

surely it is irrelevant what party they belong to, all politicians, who behave in a financially dishonest manner   should resign.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit and other UK politics thread 4
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 06 Sep 25 - 11:25 PM

That’s my point.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit and other UK politics thread 4
From: Nigel Parsons
Date: 07 Sep 25 - 02:11 PM

Still no comment about the examples of ‘forgetfulness’ from your mob, Nigel? I repeat, ‘glasshouses’ and ‘stones’. What a strange set of double-standards you Tories seem to live by.

I was discussing current news. Both major parties (and most of the minors) have similar histories.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit and other UK politics thread 4
From: SPB-Cooperator
Date: 07 Sep 25 - 02:30 PM

Well, there's dihonesty and there's dishonesty. On one hand there's getting your taxes wrong and paying the price later, and on the other hand there is spending a fortune on tax lawyers to find ways of legally reducing tax liabilities depriving public services.    I know which is the greater wrong in my book, especially where the most wealthy have the means to buy their way out of taxation.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit and other UK politics thread 4
From: Nigel Parsons
Date: 07 Sep 25 - 02:47 PM

Well, there's dihonesty and there's dishonesty. On one hand there's getting your taxes wrong and paying the price later, and on the other hand there is spending a fortune on tax lawyers to find ways of legally reducing tax liabilities depriving public services.    I know which is the greater wrong in my book, especially where the most wealthy have the means to buy their way out of taxation. (My bold/italics)

And no, I'm not rich, and I used to work for HMRC, so I know a lot about it.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit and other UK politics thread 4
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 07 Sep 25 - 04:01 PM

A Tory and a tax-man! No possibility of redemption - straight to Hell! ;-)

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit and other UK politics thread 4
From: The Sandman
Date: 07 Sep 25 - 05:02 PM

The wealthy CAN buy their way out of anything look at Prince Andrew.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit and other UK politics thread 4
From: SPB-Cooperator
Date: 07 Sep 25 - 05:31 PM

If you worked for HMRC then you should be able to discern between the spirit (and purpose) and the letter of the law, and why we have taxes.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit and other UK politics thread 4
From: Nigel Parsons
Date: 07 Sep 25 - 09:40 PM

SPB: If you worked for HMRC then you should be able to discern between the spirit (and purpose) and the letter of the law, and why we have taxes.

Yes, I can discern between the two. Breaking the 'spirit' of the law is not, necessarily, illegal. Breaking the legal definitions of the law is.

I hope that you understand the distinction.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit and other UK politics thread 4
From: The Sandman
Date: 09 Sep 25 - 02:25 PM

what exactly went on between Starmer and Fartage

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit and other UK politics thread 4
From: The Sandman
Date: 09 Sep 25 - 03:45 PM

Ihave found out ,Starmer goes up in my estimation FFS how important is parliamentary protocol

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit and other UK politics thread 4
From: SPB-Cooperator
Date: 10 Sep 25 - 10:30 AM

Taxation is about each person contributing to society according to their means and receiving according to their needs. Imagine two people who have failed to pay the same amount of tax: one through a genuine error or omission, and the other by deliberately exploiting a loophole to avoid their liability. In this scenario, has only the person who did not exploit the loophole failed to contribute their fair share?

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit and other UK politics thread 4
From: The Sandman
Date: 10 Sep 25 - 12:44 PM

Spot on, SPB.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit and other UK politics thread 4
From: Nigel Parsons
Date: 10 Sep 25 - 04:10 PM

SPB: Taxation?
I thought that was about communism: The full slogan, "from each according to his ability, to each according to his needs," was popularized by Karl Marx in his 1875 work, Critique of the Gotha Programme.

As this current government has shown, trying to get the richest to pay more than a reasonable percentage just gets them to move themselves, their money, and their businesses elsewhere. Which makes the country poorer.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit and other UK politics thread 4
From: The Sandman
Date: 11 Sep 25 - 02:00 AM

"As this current government has shown, trying to get the richest to pay more than a reasonable percentage just gets them to move themselves, their money, and their businesses elsewhere. Which makes the country poorer."
that is your opinion, it is not a proven fact
"from each according to his ability, to each according to his needs," your QUOTE, has nothing to donw ith Taxation,
also it is quoted out of context

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit and other UK politics thread 4
From: The Sandman
Date: 11 Sep 25 - 02:36 AM

HERE is the quote in context
In a higher phase of communist society, after the enslaving subordination of the individual to the division of labor, and therewith also the antithesis between mental and physical labor, has vanished; after labor has become not only a means of life but life's prime want; after the productive forces have also increased with the all-around development of the individual, and all the springs of co-operative wealth flow more abundantly—only then can the narrow horizon of bourgeois right be crossed in its entirety and society inscribe on its banners:

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit and other UK politics thread 4
From: The Sandman
Date: 11 Sep 25 - 02:47 AM

The quote is about a Communist society. SPB is talking about our present capitalist society, stop muddying the waters with irrelevance.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit and other UK politics thread 4
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 11 Sep 25 - 11:21 AM

As this current government has shown, trying to get the richest to pay more than a reasonable percentage just gets them to move themselves, their money, and their businesses elsewhere. Which makes the country poorer.

Has it Nigel? I cannot find any reference to anyone moving their money or business out of the country for any other reason than Brexit in recent times. If there has been a mass exudus because of Labour's taxation policies I have not spotted it in the news.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit and other UK politics thread 4
From: Stilly River Sage
Date: 11 Sep 25 - 11:28 AM

News or old news?

U.K. fires its ambassador to Washington over emails to Jeffrey Epstein

LONDON — Days before President Trump arrives in the United Kingdom for a state visit, the U.K. has fired its ambassador to Washington over links to convicted sex offender Jeffrey Epstein. In 2008, before becoming ambassador to the United States, Peter Mandelson — a former Cabinet minister and European Union trade commissioner from the center-left Labour Party — wrote Epstein an email saying, "I think the world of you and I feel hopeless and furious about what has happened."

In another, he wrote: "Your friends stay with you and love you."

Mandelson's emails, published Wednesday by The Sun newspaper, were sent after Epstein was indicted by a grand jury in 2006. The New York financier pleaded guilty two years later to soliciting sex with a minor.

On Thursday, U.K. Foreign Office minister Stephen Doughty told Parliament that Prime Minister Keir Starmer was withdrawing Mandelson as ambassador — effective immediately.

The Foreign Office says the emails show the extent of Mandelson's relationship with the late sex offender was "materially different" from what was known at the time he was appointed as ambassador. It singled out one of his emails in which Mandelson lamented Epstein's conviction, calling it wrongful and suggesting it should be challenged.

Mandelson is known in U.K. politics as a behind-the-scenes spin doctor who played a significant role in the 1997 election of Prime Minister Tony Blair, earning the nickname "Prince of Darkness." In 2001, after resigning in scandal from Blair's government and then winning reelection to Parliament, he famously called himself a "fighter ... not a quitter." (The scandal involved allegations that Mandelson helped an Indian billionaire get a British passport; an official inquiry cleared him of any wrongdoing.)

His firing as ambassador complicates Starmer's efforts to build rapport with the Trump administration, and it comes as the U.S. president prepares to travel Tuesday to the U.K. for a state visit.

Photos have also emerged of Mandelson in a bathrobe at Epstein's home. And in an infamous Epstein birthday book — which includes a drawing of a woman's body that President Trump denies penning — there's also a handwritten message from Mandelson, calling Epstein his "best pal."

There's a bit more to the article at the link. It says the emails were from private email addresses and leaked by The Sun - a yellowish UK journal, correct? How did they get them?

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit and other UK politics thread 4
From: The Sandman
Date: 12 Sep 25 - 03:23 AM

MANDELSON has been sacked, and rightly so

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit and other UK politics thread 4
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 12 Sep 25 - 06:01 AM

Yet we are still welcoming Epsteins best mate with open arms later this month. The hypocrisy is stunning.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit and other UK politics thread 4
From: The Sandman
Date: 12 Sep 25 - 11:36 AM

I agree

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit and other UK politics thread 4
From: MaJoC the Filk
Date: 12 Sep 25 - 12:21 PM

Minor aside: In comments following on from the reshuffle which was triggered (prematurely) by Angela Rayner's problems, something I agree with about reshuffles in general:

About 14 months. *Just* long enough to be seen to have "held" the post, just short enough not to have been able to do more than get up to speed, attend some lunches and be moved on.

CHANGE PLACES!

... which fully earned the response:

Does make about as much sense as the UK leading the world in Horological Dairy products even if "It was the best butter."

I wouldn't give you 53p for the heads even it included the hat.

Evaluation of "52½p" in old money is left as an exercise.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit and other UK politics thread 4
From: Rain Dog
Date: 12 Sep 25 - 01:57 PM

"Yet we are still welcoming Epsteins best mate with open arms later this month. The hypocrisy is stunning."

Best mate? Please reveal your sources. I imagine that a lot of people would like to know them.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit and other UK politics thread 4
From: Doug Chadwick
Date: 12 Sep 25 - 07:25 PM

MaJoC the Filk,
I understand your the comment on reshuffles on general:

About 14 months. *Just* long enough to be seen to have "held" the post, just short enough not to have been able to do more than get up to speed, attend some lunches and be moved on.

CHANGE PLACES!


... but what is the reponse, fully earned or otherwise, supposed to mean:

Does make about as much sense as the UK leading the world in Horological Dairy products even if "It was the best butter."

I wouldn't give you 53p for the heads even it included the hat.


Could you explain please?

DC

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit and other UK politics thread 4
From: The Sandman
Date: 13 Sep 25 - 04:29 AM

is it time for Starmer to resign?I think he should be replaced

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit and other UK politics thread 4
From: MaJoC the Filk
Date: 13 Sep 25 - 02:23 PM

Doug: see Alice in Wonderland. The hat in question features on the front cover of the dust jacket of our household copy .... which appears to have been put Somewhere Safe.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit and other UK politics thread 4
From: Doug Chadwick
Date: 13 Sep 25 - 02:54 PM

OK, I can see where you got your references from but what the connection is, between the first comment and the response, escapes me.

I wouldn't bother trying to explain it further, if I were you. Let's just accept I'm too thick to understand.

DC

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit and other UK politics thread 4
From: Nigel Parsons
Date: 13 Sep 25 - 03:49 PM

The Hatter's hat "10/6 in this style" would hardly equate to 52.5p.
UK inflation since 1865 has been about 16,000%.
The hat would now be £84.00 (rough approximation)

But thank you for the reminder. I should re-read "Alice's Adventure in Wonderland"

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit and other UK politics thread 4
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 14 Sep 25 - 06:23 AM

So, the rally organised by ex-con and known thug, Tommy Ten Names, resulted in dozens of arrests and many police being injured. What a surprise. The turnips ex-pet muskrat turned up on video telling the protestors that they must 'fight back or die'. I hope that, if he ever sets foot on British soil, he is arrested for inciting violence

Rain Man - "Best mate? Please reveal your sources"

The fact that you knew who I meant means the the hyperbole did it's job ;-)

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit and other UK politics thread 4
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 20 Sep 25 - 02:40 AM

Not a fan of royalty but I thought that Charlie's speech at the turnip's visit was pretty good. Went right over turnip's head of course. The look on Charlie's face during some of his guest's verbal diorhea was a picture too:-)

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit and other UK politics thread 4
From: The Sandman
Date: 20 Sep 25 - 03:31 AM

2 Establishment poodles,

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit and other UK politics thread 4
From: The Sandman
Date: 20 Sep 25 - 03:41 AM

Trump poses as anti establishment, but he is really not too bright, all this nonsense about using the military to stop boat people, the navy does not have enough ships, Trump talks off the top of his head without consulting facts

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit and other UK politics thread 4
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 20 Sep 25 - 07:26 AM

The UK should not use its armed forces to break International Maritime Law, period.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit and other UK politics thread 4
From: Nigel Parsons
Date: 20 Sep 25 - 10:36 AM

"The UK should not use its armed forces to break International Maritime Law, period."
True!

But the RNLI should not be sending boats to meet boats which have been escorted by the French authorities to mid-channel.

Not meeting them does not put them in peril. The smugglers did that by arranging the boats.
The French police were complicit in allowing them to leave French shores.
Any boats escorting them to the mid-point are also complicit.

Why does it only seem to be the British who say "Well, although they put themselves in harm's way, it is our responsibility to rescue them."?

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit and other UK politics thread 4
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 20 Sep 25 - 02:04 PM

”But the RNLI should not be sending boats to meet boats which have been escorted by the French authorities to mid-channel.”

You forgot to complete that sentence. “…escorted by the French authorities to mid-channel, then abandoned in their leaky, unreliable craft”.

Unlike the Royal Navy, The RNLI is a privately-run, independent charity, funded by voluntary public subscriptions and donations operating, under Royal Charter, according the the provisions of Article 3 of that Charter. Nowhere in those articles is there any limitation on the rescue activities of the RNLI dependent on the cause of the peril in which those rescued find themselves - all that is necessary is for the lives of human beings to be at risk at sea.

Read the Charter and educate yourself.

Having spent a great deal of time at sea in large sailing vessels, and having witnessed at first hand the power of the sea and the frailty of human life at sea, I know that it’s a particularly cruel, callous sort of person who would condone abandoning a group of people effectively adrift and at risk in a small boat at sea, no matter what their origins or motivations. And no matter the colour of their skins. Fortunately, there are still some of us who hold themselves to far higher standards of decency and humanity.

Take care, Nigel, your true colours are showing, and they’re not pretty, not pretty at all…

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit and other UK politics thread 4
From: The Sandman
Date: 21 Sep 25 - 07:11 AM

the split between Corbyn and Sultana is disappointing, how frequently the left gets divided, which suits the establishment, is one of them working for the establishment deliberately causing division

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit and other UK politics thread 4
From: Rain Dog
Date: 21 Sep 25 - 10:44 AM

"But the RNLI should not be sending boats to meet boats which have been escorted by the French authorities to mid-channel.”

You forgot to complete that sentence. “…escorted by the French authorities to mid-channel, then abandoned in their leaky, unreliable craft”

The question should be why do the French abandon them in the middle of the Channel.

We all know that there are no easy answers as to how to deal with the crossings across the channel. But people should never forget that the RNLI is manned by volunteers. The crews at Dover have been called out an increasing number of times. If you have not already seen it, i would recommend this episode of Saving Lives At Sea.

Saving Lives at Sea Series 10: 1. Emergency in the Channel

It does include upsetting scenes.

It does also show otber vessels responding to the emergency.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit and other UK politics thread 4
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 21 Sep 25 - 12:12 PM

”We all know that there are no easy answers as to how to deal with the crossings across the channel. But people should never forget that the RNLI is manned by volunteers. The crews at Dover have been called out an increasing number of times. If you have not already seen it, i would recommend this episode of Saving Lives At Sea.

Saving Lives at Sea Series 10: 1. Emergency in the Channel

It does include upsetting scenes.”

That’s very true, RD, and one of the points I was making in my previous post is that, unlike vessels of the RN, the Lifeboat crews aren’t ordered to carry out service, they do so because they want to, because they regard it as their duty as decent human beings.

And I regard the earlier statement, ”Why does it only seem to be the British who say "Well, although they put themselves in harm's way, it is our responsibility to rescue them."?” as a shabby, shameful example of victim-blaming. Absolutely heartless and disgraceful.

I’ve already seen the episode of ‘Saving Lives at Sea’ you linked to, but I watched it again from your link. Those who, from the comfort of their living rooms, question the rescues carried out by, not only the RNLI, but other vessels too (including the French), really should be honest and examine their own heartless, callous attitudes.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit and other UK politics thread 4
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 22 Sep 25 - 06:12 AM

This being, first and foremost, a music forum, here’s one for the hard-of-heart, “Let ‘em drown” brigade…

“Are We Human?”

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit and other UK politics thread 4
From: The Sandman
Date: 22 Sep 25 - 09:47 AM

https://news.sky.com/story/duchess-of-york-dropped-as-patron-of-childrens-hospice-julias-house-over-epstein-email-13436100?utm_source=firefox-newtab-en-gb

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit and other UK politics thread 4
From: The Sandman
Date: 22 Sep 25 - 09:48 AM

https://news.sky.com/story/duchess-of-york-dropped-as-patron-of-childrens-hospice-julias-house-over-epstein-email-13436100?utm_s

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit and other UK politics thread 4
From: MaJoC the Filk
Date: 22 Sep 25 - 01:32 PM

Found in the Letters column in this week's New European World:

If Reform win the next election, how will the French react to their coasts being swamped by small boats full of progressive liberals and democrats?

    -- Christopher Harrison, New World issue 452, Sept 18, 2025

.... by way of balance.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit and other UK politics thread 4
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 23 Sep 25 - 12:30 PM

Heard a question posed a BBC political pundit yesterday. Along the lines of "Why are reform gaining so much popularity?"

It is not too often that I can be seen shouting at the TV but the words were something like "Because you bunch of fucking wank-puffins keep pushing the shite that deform are spewing out on the rest of us!"

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit and other UK politics thread 4
From: The Sandman
Date: 23 Sep 25 - 01:05 PM

and also the faux pas made by Starmer, Reform membership, increased dramatically when Starmer made a personal attack on Farage in parliament

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit and other UK politics thread 4
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 23 Sep 25 - 01:10 PM

The BBC are Deform’s biggest cheer-leaders. Look at how much time they spend on reporting Deform business (with 4 MPs) compared to the Greens (also with 4 MPs) and the Lib-Dems (with 72 MPs).

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit and other UK politics thread 4
From: The Sandman
Date: 23 Sep 25 - 01:52 PM

I agree if they were truly impartial they would give him less time., but if you include what i said earlier about Starmers attack on Farage, and reforms increased membership on that day, you get a truer picture.There is no gettying away from the effct Starmers attack on Farage had, Harold Wilson would never have made that mistake

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit and other UK politics thread 4
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 24 Sep 25 - 03:06 AM

Just reading that the government has managed to recover £500m lost to benefit fraud using an AI tool. Good for them. They now just need another one to stop the billions being lost to the tax avoidance schemes put in place to make the rich even richer...

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit and other UK politics thread 4
From: Fred
Date: 24 Sep 25 - 03:36 AM

I don't often post here, but I feel you guys are knocking on the wrong door when you blame Reform's popularity on the BBC.

Is it that, or is it that the voters who want illegal immigration stopped tried the Tories who failed to tackle it, tried Labour which led to record levels and Farage is saying what they want to hear?

I don't know. I've long given up on politics. Try Labour, mess up try Tories and it's like the Ariston TV ad if you remember that. All you get is different faces pushing the same old hand-cart which is long overdue a major service :)

-F

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit and other UK politics thread 4
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 24 Sep 25 - 04:41 AM

I don’t think anyone is ‘blaming’ the BBC for Deform’s apparent popularity, Fred. What is being queried is the completely disproportionate amount of exposure they are getting on the BBC, particularly Farage. They have the same number of MPs as the Greens, yet how often do you see anyone from the Greens on BBC. Likewise the Lib-Dems, who have fifteen times the number of Deform MPs, yet get nowhere near the BBC airtime that Deform gets.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit and other UK politics thread 4
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 24 Sep 25 - 04:44 AM

Farage is saying what they want to hear ON THE BBC EVERY DAY while Greens, with as many MPs and the LibDems with nearly 10 times as many get very little air time. Populism is the current scourge of politics and the excuse that "they are all the same" is lame and lazy.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit and other UK politics thread 4
From: Fred
Date: 24 Sep 25 - 05:12 AM

Ah, I see.

Well, yes, that's a valid argument, BWM, though it doesn't change my view on politics.

I see them as all at it, in it for them. Take the cost-of-living crisis. If it had the same effect on them as it does the poor, you'd soon see something done about it it.

I have a very dim view of them - that THEY'VE caused - and it's up to them to prove I can trust them with my vote.

-F

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit and other UK politics thread 4
From: Fred
Date: 24 Sep 25 - 05:52 AM

But I think Farage would find a way to rally the people anyway, without the BBC.

I think, as well, that it's just words. If people buy into it, I think they're heading for a disappointment.

Just my opinion.

-F

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit and other UK politics thread 4
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 24 Sep 25 - 06:05 AM

It’s Populism - telling people what they want to hear, persuading them that all their problems are caused by a minority who are ‘different’, convincing the less-well-off that their enemy is those even worse-off.

In 1930s Germany, it was ‘the Jewish problem’. In 2020’s UK (and, for that matter, the US) it’s ‘illegal immigrants’.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit and other UK politics thread 4
From: Fred
Date: 24 Sep 25 - 06:25 AM

So what you're saying is, scapegoat excuses to whip up hysteria :)

-F

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit and other UK politics thread 4
From: Fred
Date: 24 Sep 25 - 07:07 AM

I'm just pulling your leg, BWM ;)

-F

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit and other UK politics thread 4
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 24 Sep 25 - 08:43 AM

"So what you're saying is, scapegoat excuses to whip up hysteria :)"

What I'm saying is that Deform UK are guilty of employing the politics of division. The Tories too, to perhaps a lesser degree. And that's how it happened in 1930s Germany.

I was born just after the end of WW2 and, as a little lad, I remember my dad telling me about Hitler, the Nazis, and their treatment of the Jews. And i remember him telling me not to worry, "It could never happen here".

Guess what, Dad...

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit and other UK politics thread 4
From: Fred
Date: 24 Sep 25 - 11:41 AM

One of the things I dislike about politics is that it robs people of having fun, they get heated in their defence of the party they support.

And that's why I came here, that's why I posted. Politicians say one thing and do another. Are they worthy of your support? I don't think so. It's why I don't usually get involved. I feel, if I defended them or worse still supported them, I'd be as bad as they are. So I devote myself to helping others less fortunate, or I'm taking home injured wildlife I've found so that Mrs Fred can take them to the vet. I'd rather do this a million times than go into a polling booth just once.

-F

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit and other UK politics thread 4
From: Fred
Date: 24 Sep 25 - 12:15 PM

Erm...rant over lol sorry.

-F

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit and other UK politics thread 4
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 25 Sep 25 - 04:21 AM

"they get heated in their defence of the party they support"

Sorry Fred but that is not happening here. The only thing people are getting heated about is what is right and what is wrong whicher party is doing it. Yes, they have all done things differently to their manifestos and that is wrong but to use that as an excuse to shirk the responsibility to vote is equally wrong. Our forefathers fought hard for the right to determine our own governance. Without that right we would have never been able to vote for those who gave us decent working conditions, pensions and the NHS. You don't like the main parties. That's fine. Vote Green. Vote independent. But for heavens sake don't give up the hard won right to vote. And don't fall for the populist line spun by deform :-D

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit and other UK politics thread 4
From: Fred
Date: 25 Sep 25 - 05:48 AM

Dave,

Farage doesn't have me in his stable. I'm a little too old in the tooth to fall for it.

As I said above, Farage knows what resonates with certain people. If they fall for it and get disappointed, that's them.

Honesty is a big thing for me. Caring is another. Ok, you'll see above in this thread that, as a small child, I was a scallywag, but in adulthood I'm very different.

I want politicians to make a difference to people's lives and I don't see that. I see them poking holes in the air with their finger, or making wonderful pre-election promises that they conveniently forget once they're elected.

Yes, our forefathers who fought so hard, what do you think THEY'D say about today's shower?

Sorry, Dave, you seem a lovely bloke but you're not going to convince me to vote for people I don't trust. I'd rather kick the bucket :-D

-F

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit and other UK politics thread 4
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 25 Sep 25 - 06:47 AM

I'm not trying to convince anyone to vote for anything. Just to make sure that the right to vote is maintained for our children and grandchildren. We can see that right being eroded in the USA right now. I know that you are disheartened with the major parties, as are many people, so why not vote for someone who YOU think CAN make a difference? I vote every time I can. In local elections, we are lucky to have a plethora of independent and very effective councillors who get my support. In the general election, in this area, if you put a blue rosette on a pig it would be elected so I either spoil my vote or go Green. I used to be a supporter of the Labour party but unless they go back to their roots and start to help those in need, they shall not get my vote again.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit and other UK politics thread 4
From: Donuel
Date: 25 Sep 25 - 07:26 AM

Powerlessness is a symptom of a zombie democracy that serves no one but the politicians and their authoritarian, wealthy masters.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit and other UK politics thread 4
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 25 Sep 25 - 07:43 AM

I posted this in the Trump thread because it is by American Poet, William Stafford. It is just as apt here

Learning

A piccolo played, then a drum.
Feet began to come—a part
of the music. Here came a horse,
clippety clop, away.

My mother said, "Don't run—
the army is after someone
other than us. If you stay
you'll learn our enemy."

Then he came, the speaker. He stood
in the square. He told us who
to hate. I watched my mother's face,
its quiet. "That's him," she said.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit and other UK politics thread 4
From: Fred
Date: 25 Sep 25 - 08:42 AM

Dave, to be fair, you're not trying to convince me to vote for people I don't trust. I take that back and apologise.

And it's not like I WANT to be a non-voter. If they gave me a reason to vote for them, I would.

-F

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit and other UK politics thread 4
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 25 Sep 25 - 09:30 AM

Can't say fairer than that Fred and no apology needed.

I have mentioned Green before but I am not trying to push them. Honest! But does their manefesto give you a reason to vote for them?

Green Party Manefesto

I just don't like to see people giving up all hope of a better future due to the current crop of shysters! :-)

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit and other UK politics thread 4
From: Rain Dog
Date: 25 Sep 25 - 10:13 AM

Fred, i understand your reluctance to vote but i always encourage everyone to vote, even those who would never agree with my choice. You might not like any of the choices but you could always vote for the least worst party. It would be better than nothing.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit and other UK politics thread 4
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 25 Sep 25 - 11:46 AM

For me, the most important reason for voting is that it’s the only thing that separates us from the serfs of the old Feudal system, and it’s the one and only means of having a say, as small as it is, in the running of our Society (with a big ‘S’). ‘One man, one vote’ was long- and hard-fought for, and I regard voting both as a right and a duty.

I agree that politics is in a bad place right now - Populism has very much taken charge, and the tactics of 1930s Germany are surfacing. Despite my constituency being similar to Dave’s, where a pig would get elected if it wore a blue rosette, I voted Labour in 2024. I got the same Tory MP as previously, but I got the government I preferred. Unfortunately, they have turned out to be something of a disappointment, but at least I took the opportunity to state my preference - if I didn’t vote, how could I complain about whatever the outcome turned out to be?

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit and other UK politics thread 4
From: Raggytash
Date: 25 Sep 25 - 02:00 PM

" if I didn’t vote, how could I complain about whatever the outcome turned out to be?"

Correct BWM, I would go a step further and say if you didn't vote you have no part to play in a political discussion.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit and other UK politics thread 4
From: Stilly River Sage
Date: 25 Sep 25 - 02:09 PM

Not voting is voting, but for an outcome you have no right to complain about.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit and other UK politics thread 4
From: Fred
Date: 25 Sep 25 - 03:48 PM

I've complained about no outcome of any, not even non-uk. election.

And members rights to participate in this thread has nothing to do with voting, it is surely at the discretion of those in charge of the forum.


i left a previous forum hoping for better here.

Goodbye.

Fred

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit and other UK politics thread 4
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 25 Sep 25 - 04:11 PM

”if you didn't vote you have no part to play in a political discussion.”

I wouldn’t go that far, Raggy - we are all citizens of our country, to all intents and purposes we have free speech, and we are all entitled to express our views. But I just wouldn’t feel entitled to complain about the government if I hadn’t voted, that’s all.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit and other UK politics thread 4
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 25 Sep 25 - 04:14 PM

Don't go, Fred. We need all views here

Apart from deforms ;-)

Oh, and, I think

200

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit and other UK politics thread 4
From: Stilly River Sage
Date: 25 Sep 25 - 04:24 PM

Being a perfectionist means there will never be an ideal candidate for you, Fred. It's frankly silly to stop participating in the discussion because the perfect answer doesn't come along, and it doesn't negate the statement I made before - choosing not to vote is in fact a vote. So pull up your socks and look at the field, and if you can't find the perfect candidate to represent your position, hold your nose and vote for the candidate who will crimp the style of the worst candidate in the race.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit and other UK politics thread 4
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 25 Sep 25 - 04:35 PM

”if you can't find the perfect candidate to represent your position, hold your nose and vote for the candidate who will crimp the style of the worst candidate in the race.”

That’s precisely my position - for many years I voted Liberal/Lib Dem, not because I’m a Lib/Lib Dem supporter, but because, in my safe-Tory-seat constituency, Labour always came a very poor third with the Libs/Lib Dems a much closer second. It seemed sense, therefore, to vote Lib/Lib Dem in the hope they would oust our long-sitting Tory MP. Sadly it never came to fruition and, following what I regard as the treachery of the Lib Dem coalition with Cameron’s Tories in 2010, I’ve preferred to vote Labour.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit and other UK politics thread 4
From: Fred
Date: 26 Sep 25 - 11:58 AM

When I applied for membership, a few months ago, I said that I wouldn't get involved in (or cause) arguments.

However, when I said in this thread that I play no active part in elections, it seemed to fire members up. It wasn't said to have that effect.

However, it seemed to build and build, and I didn't understand why. After all, I don't say you shouldn't vote, so why do you say I should? Surely it's my choice, just like it's yours?

As for leaving, and all that - well, maybe I shouldn't be so sensitive about what others post, even if nastily to me. It's a forum, sh*t happens, toughen up.

So I'll be staying.

-F

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit and other UK politics thread 4
From: Stilly River Sage
Date: 26 Sep 25 - 12:04 PM

I don't believe anyone was being nasty. It's all in how you read them to yourself, borrowing an attitude that wasn't intended. But in this day and age to come into a political thread and discuss not voting, well, that's a head-scratcher.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit and other UK politics thread 4
From: Fred
Date: 26 Sep 25 - 12:12 PM

SRS,

I didn't come in to discuss non-voting, it was just dropped into one of my posts and was picked up on.

-F

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit and other UK politics thread 4
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 26 Sep 25 - 01:08 PM

Fred. You explained why you don't vote and a number of people offered counter arguments as to why you should. It is how debates work. Entirely up to you whether you accept the counter arguments or not.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit and other UK politics thread 4
From: Fred
Date: 26 Sep 25 - 02:14 PM

Dave,

Yes, absolutely, I get that totally. It's just that I wanted it to die down but it didn't.

Anyway, let's forget it - water under the bridge. I read the Green Party manifesto, thanks for that. Some good things in it, made me think. Maybe, who knows! We'll see :)

-F

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit and other UK politics thread 4
From: Aethelric
Date: 27 Sep 25 - 03:48 AM

Worrying link about ID cards here. What is happening in the World?

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit and other UK politics thread 4
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 27 Sep 25 - 04:08 AM

A few valid points in the link but, in my opinion, there is too much hyperbole. Yes, the government will be able to access your information. They already can. Starmer is the most unpopular prime minister. Really? So soon after Johnson and Truss? Only brought in to look tougher on immigration? Just as Starmer attacks deform? Hmmmm. I am ambivalent to the idea of ID cards but I think the article needs a bit of balance

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit and other UK politics thread 4
From: Stilly River Sage
Date: 28 Sep 25 - 10:21 PM

So sorry we seemed to be picking on you, Fred. There are some kinder, gentler threads to drop in around Mudcat when looking to see what people are doing. The BS: stay out of trouble thread (stay afloat) thread is an excellent example (this is a second iteration since thread length is a thing we have to be careful about now, or they vanish from sight). The knives are sometimes pretty sharp over here in the UK politics thread (though probably better than the guns in some of the US political discussions). Over on the stay out of trouble thread you're liable to find commiseration, helpful suggestions, and occasional recipes. Give it a read (and there is a link to the much older longer thread in the first post).

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit and other UK politics thread 4
From: Fred
Date: 29 Sep 25 - 06:52 AM

Stilly,

That's ok :)



I'll be away awhile as there's much to do in a short time. But, unfortunately, I'll be back before you know it :)

-F

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit and other UK politics thread 4
From: The Sandman
Date: 30 Sep 25 - 12:29 PM

" But in this day and age to come into a political thread and discuss not voting, well, that's a head-scratcher." quote
A number of people do not vote, as a protest, or because none of the candidates are what they want to vote for. what is a head scratcher about that, it is quite clear.
lets face it if 95 percent of the people refused to vote, that would mean politicians were elected by only 5 per cent of the population, hardly a mandate to govern.
Perhaps the non voters have realised that they are represented only in name, but ELECTION CANDIDATES firstly represent the corporations that sponsor their campaigns

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit and other UK politics thread 4
From: Fred
Date: 30 Sep 25 - 03:03 PM

If I hadn't mentioned that I don't vote, there wouldn't have been comments about it.

If you post in a public thread, as I did, you have to expect and accept others will pick up on it. Why shouldn't they?

I've no problem with it, just that at the time I wasn't thinking straight.

-F

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit and other UK politics thread 4
From: The Sandman
Date: 01 Oct 25 - 04:00 AM

https://observer.co.uk/news/national/article/andrew-visited-epstein-on-childrens-charity-trip?utm_source=firefox-newtab-en-gb link to article in Observer newspaper

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit and other UK politics thread 4
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 07 Oct 25 - 12:26 PM

Well, the Tories have upped the ante- at their Conference. From their usual Three Word Slogan, they’ve gone seriously up-market, and have a Four Word Slogan! That’ll have the voters running to the polling-stations…

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit and other UK politics thread 4
From: MaJoC the Filk
Date: 07 Oct 25 - 01:08 PM

> Four Word Slogan

That's just inflation*.

* 7.45% per annum, compounded over five years.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit and other UK politics thread 4
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 07 Oct 25 - 01:18 PM

ROTFLMAO!

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit and other UK politics thread 4
From: The Sandman
Date: 07 Oct 25 - 01:25 PM

Farage is very cunning, stealing a policy from Corbyn about water nationalisation.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit and other UK politics thread 4
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 09 Oct 25 - 03:27 AM

Water was nationalised in the 1940s. I don't think Corbyn came up with the policy as he was only born in 1949.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit and other UK politics thread 4
From: MaJoC the Filk
Date: 09 Oct 25 - 07:22 AM

Farage isn't cunning: he's opportunistic. He'd flog any policy as long as it fell off the back of a lorry.

By the bye, I understand* that those with the same surname (found in quite a small area of the country) usually pronounce it as if it was spelt "Farridge". Is the [redacted] attempting to impress Hyacinth Bucket?

* Peter Trudgill's "On Language" column in New European World.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit and other UK politics thread 4
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 09 Oct 25 - 09:10 AM

First and foremost, the attack on a Manchester synagogue last week was dreadful. What I am seeing as a backlash does not make sense to me though. I am sure that antisemitism is still rife but I do not see it being as obvious as other forms of racism. I cannot open the news or social media without seeing awful comments about Muslims or "boat people". The only hate I see towards any Jewish people is about the Zionist genocide in Gaza. What am I missing? Is antisemitism really on an upsurge or are the Zionist apologists just putting up a smokescreen? I really don't know

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit and other UK politics thread 4
From: Fred
Date: 09 Oct 25 - 10:03 AM

I don't hold with all this racism nonsense. If someone is kind to others, that's all I care about and I'd be proud to call 'em a friend.

-F

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit and other UK politics thread 4
From: The Sandman
Date: 09 Oct 25 - 10:19 AM

Dave Polshaw
at the present time water is privatised in the uk, Corbyn has been talking about rentionalising it, farage after criticising Corbyn for taking about nationalising it, has now done a u turn

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit and other UK politics thread 4
From: MaJoC the Filk
Date: 09 Oct 25 - 10:37 AM

It doesn't look like a backlash to me, DtG: more an excuse. It doesn't have to make sense.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit and other UK politics thread 4
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 09 Oct 25 - 10:54 AM

Agreed, Fred, but these people are not being kind and I don't understand why.

Good point MaJoC. It doesn't have to make sense but if we understood why these people are making excuses then we may be able to address whatever issues they have in a more positive way.

Dick, my point is that Faeage is not, as you put it, "stealing a policy from Corbyn about water nationalisation". Corbyn did not invent water nationalism. He is not the first to come up with renationalisation either. Farage is a grifter and will say anything that he thinks may be possible. If you are going to argue against him you need to get the facts right and the fact is that Corbyn is only one of a long line of people who believe that our water supply should not be in the hands of big business.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit and other UK politics thread 4
From: The Sandman
Date: 09 Oct 25 - 12:18 PM

talk about pedantic

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit and other UK politics thread 4
From: The Sandman
Date: 09 Oct 25 - 12:27 PM

i never said that Corbyn was first to come up with the idea of WATER NATIONALISATION, but in the present uk parliament, it has been one of his policies, so my acts are right, FARAGE is stealing a policy that Corbyn has suggested in the LAST 8YEARS, here is a link sky news,
https://news.sky.com/story/sky-views-jeremy-corbyns-water-vow-could-be-costly-11078116
Dave, its not over til the fat woman has sung

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit and other UK politics thread 4
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 09 Oct 25 - 01:13 PM

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit and other UK politics thread 4
From: The Sandman - PM
Date: 07 Oct 25 - 01:25 PM

Farage is very cunning, stealing a policy from Corbyn about water nationalisation.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit and other UK politics thread 4
From: The Sandman - PM
Date: 09 Oct 25 - 12:27 PM

i never said that Corbyn was first to come up with the idea of WATER NATIONALISATION, but in the present uk parliament, it has been one of his policies, so my acts are right, FARAGE is stealing a policy that Corbyn has suggested in the LAST 8YEARS

Talk about back peddaling...

How on earth can Farage steal something from Corbyn when it never belonged to Corbyn in the first place?

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit and other UK politics thread 4
From: The Sandman
Date: 10 Oct 25 - 12:28 AM

Water nationalisation is also a policy of the Green party,so Farage is stealing a policy advocated by Corbyn but also one advocated by the Greens.
Hopefully MY AMENDED STATEMENT this will satisfy pedants and nit picking, point scorers

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit and other UK politics thread 4
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 10 Oct 25 - 03:12 AM

They advocate the same policy would be far better. No-one has stolen anything. But thanks for trying anyway.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit and other UK politics thread 4
From: The Sandman
Date: 10 Oct 25 - 04:41 AM

I am afraid you are misinformed, Farage   previously criticised Corbyn for wanting to reintroduce water nationalisation, Farage is now advocating it.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit and other UK politics thread 4
From: The Sandman
Date: 10 Oct 25 - 06:23 AM

Incorrect spelling of Britain by Tories, LINK to the Guardian, a certain irony here, as the Guardian was once renowned for incorrect spelling. now all i need is our in house pedant to correct me.
https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2025/oct/06/conservative-party-misspell-britain-conference-chocolate-bar

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit and other UK politics thread 4
From: The Sandman
Date: 10 Oct 25 - 06:24 AM

https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2025/oct/06/conservative-party-misspell-britain-conference-chocolate-bar

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit and other UK politics thread 4
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 10 Oct 25 - 07:31 AM

There are no rules preventing politicians from changing their minds.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit and other UK politics thread 4
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 10 Oct 25 - 07:49 AM

Who is misinformed and why, Dick?

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit and other UK politics thread 4
From: The Sandman
Date: 10 Oct 25 - 12:08 PM

Jeremy Corbyn
Wikipedia
https://en.wikipedia.org › wiki › Jeremy_Corbyn
Taking the party to the left, Corbyn advocated renationalising public utilities and railways
Reform would nationalise half of water industry, says Nigel ...
The Telegraph
https://www.telegraph.co.uk › politics › 2025/07/20 › r...
20 Jul 2025 — Nigel Farage has vowed to nationalise half of the water industry by striking a deal with the private sector.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit and other UK politics thread 4
From: The Sandman
Date: 10 Oct 25 - 12:14 PM

22 Nov 2019, 09:30 Updated: 22 Nov 2019
Share
"Nasty and filled with jealousy": Nigel Farage criticises Labour manifesto
Nigel Farage criticises "nasty" Labour manifesto

Nigel Farage labelled the Labour manifesto as "nasty" and "filled with jealousy" as he prepared to unveil the Brexit Party's pledges for the general election.

Jeremy Corbyn unveiled his plan for the next five years, including scrapping tuition fees, big pay rises for the public sector and the nationalisation a number of utilities including trains and broadband.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit and other UK politics thread 4
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 10 Oct 25 - 01:15 PM

So, Who is misinformed and why, Dick?

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit and other UK politics thread 4
From: The Sandman
Date: 11 Oct 25 - 02:34 AM

You are right, whatever you say.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit and other UK politics thread 4
From: The Sandman
Date: 11 Oct 25 - 02:53 AM

did you ever hear tell of johnny gray, he died defending his right of way, he was right dead right all the way, but he died all right at the end of the day.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit and other UK politics thread 4
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 11 Oct 25 - 03:17 AM

So, Who is misinformed and why, Dick? :-D

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit and other UK politics thread 4
From: The Sandman
Date: 11 Oct 25 - 04:32 AM

"There are no rules preventing politicians from changing their minds."Correct, but in Farages case, I think it is a populist move,purely TO GAIN VOTES,now if Starmer was a bit more clever he would steal Farages thunder, and do the same, instead of getting himself thrown out of the houses of parliament for making a personal attack on Farage, if Farage moves to the left so should starmer, all he has to do is nationalise half the water companies, and he has seen off the Greens Corbyn and Farage
Harold Wilson would have done that . lets turn off the lights and have a seance, and bring him back

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit and other UK politics thread 4
From: Doug Chadwick
Date: 11 Oct 25 - 04:49 AM

Farage is very cunning, stealing a policy from Corbyn about water nationalisation.



... if Farage moves to the left so should starmer, all he has to do is nationalise half the water companies, ...

Are you saying that Starmer should steal his policies from Farage?

DC

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit and other UK politics thread 4
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 11 Oct 25 - 06:55 AM

Doug - :-D

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit and other UK politics thread 4
From: The Sandman
Date: 11 Oct 25 - 07:59 AM

from Corbyn who came up withe idea first, after water had been privatised . ok in house pedant

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit and other UK politics thread 4
From: The Sandman
Date: 11 Oct 25 - 04:50 PM

Doug Chadwick ,I dont like Farage stealing policies that might get him elected, You along with dave the gnome seem more concerned about scoring points.