BS: Tony Blair Murderer Petition.

Subject: BS: Tony Blair Murderer Petition.
From: GUEST
Date: 20 Apr 06 - 05:20 AM

Sign. This murdering scumbag should be forced to meet the parents of the people he sent to death

http://www.petitiononline.com/MFAWAp06/petition.html

Subject: RE: BS: Tony Blair Murderer Petition.
From: John MacKenzie
Date: 20 Apr 06 - 05:22 AM

Total waste of time and energy, I can't even be bothered to open the link.
We all know how much notice politicians etc take of petitions don't we?
Giok

Subject: RE: BS: Tony Blair Murderer Petition.
From: Paul Burke
Date: 20 Apr 06 - 05:33 AM

Before the Iraq invasion, a million people, largely Labour-ish types, marched in London to tell him what they thought. If he ignored them, he won't take much notice of a few thousand signatures from his opponents.

Subject: RE: BS: Tony Blair Murderer Petition.
From: Emma B
Date: 20 Apr 06 - 05:51 AM

I was on the London March. There were people representing every layer of society from the far left to Quakers, womens groups and individuals who just felt it was morally wrong - even several of the police who were stewarding the march gave us their verbal support! We assembled at The Embankment at 11am and didn't arrive in Hyde Park until 6pm there must have been well over a million folks of every creed and colour                                           I'm afraid Paul is absolutely right - Blair considers himself beyond reproach.

Subject: RE: BS: Tony Blair Murderer Petition.
From: Strollin' Johnny
Date: 20 Apr 06 - 11:40 AM

In a country of 60 million inhabitants, a group of one million, no matter how vociferous, does not constitute a majority. I suspect that at least as many, and probably rather more, actually supported the Labour Government's decision to go in with the USA, they just didn't organise a 'Hell Yes' march to show that support.

Not making a judgment on the rights and wrongs here - just looking at it with the logic of a politician. A million said "No", 59 million said nothing, and to a politician I guess that's the same as saying "Yes".

Subject: RE: BS: Tony Blair Murderer Petition.
From: GUEST
Date: 20 Apr 06 - 11:57 AM

Ah... the Silent Majority!

Subject: RE: BS: Tony Blair Murderer Petition.
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 20 Apr 06 - 07:54 PM

I wouldn't want to discourage you from taking an interest in politics. But don't you think there are many people who wouldn't mind expressing their reservations about the wisdom of the Iraq war without calling our PM a murderer.

Is there a PM in history who didn't take decisions that ended with people getting killed?

You may not like Blair. Lots of people see him as the best Prime Minister available, but they don't like the Iraq policy, and they haven't from day one. You are excluding all these - people who may feel even more strongly on the subject than you do, an moreover people who may have made a worthwhile contribution to your cause.

Decide what you want to do, make an effective protest, or dick about like Peter Cook in his Dave Spart persona.

Subject: RE: BS: Tony Blair Murderer Petition.
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 20 Apr 06 - 09:28 PM

One million was a low estimate of the number on the streets that day. It may have been twice or three times that - there's never been anything of that size to compare it with.

True enough that's not formal proof that the majority were against the war - but there were no signs of any groundswell of support for it anywhere. Not even before it was revealed that the reasons given for the war were fabrications.

But I can't see any value in this petition. A petition calling for Blair to get out of public life without deklay woudl make more saense, and most pe

Subject: RE: BS: Tony Blair Murderer Petition.
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 21 Apr 06 - 03:39 AM

I'm sorry I just don't see it.

Apart from the liberals (very much a 3rd party) both leaders of political parties said they would have signed up for the war.

Given the huge electoral payouts enjoyed by the tories from the falklands and and Iraq 1, this war was a dumb move - but it was entirely understandable policy from the populist way that blair runs things.

One day we will start electing intelligent thoughtful people who don't pretend that complicated problems can be sorted out with simplistic, soundbyte friendly solutions. On that day, pigs will fly and time move backwards.

Til then Blair is probably as good as it gets. Liberal education and tendencies, not actually mad, doesn't feel that civilisation ended sometime around Suez........I just don't see anybody around likely to be that much better.

Subject: RE: BS: Tony Blair Murderer Petition.
From: GUEST,Paul Burke
Date: 21 Apr 06 - 03:57 AM

There were EXACTLY a million people on the march. How do I know? As the two parts of the march converged, there in the throng, not ten yards away, was my friend Steve that I hadn't seen for years. And what's the chances of that?

Subject: RE: BS: Tony Blair Murderer Petition.
From: Strollin' Johnny
Date: 21 Apr 06 - 04:06 AM

True enough McG, but you know as well as I do that politicians of all colours always work on the basis that 'If you're not against me, you must be with me', in which case they would see the 'minority' of vociferous protestors as irrelevant and the 'silent majority' who stayed at home as a huge 'Yes' vote.

I must be one of the very few people who disagreed with us going in to Iraq on the stated basis of the WMD issue, but who would have been happy for us to go in if the reason given for it was the removal of an evil and genocidal dictator and his replacement with a democracy. Having said that, I would also then expect us to do the same in a number of other countries such as Zimbabwe, but that will never happen unless oil's discovered in large quantities there.

Subject: RE: BS: Tony Blair Murderer Petition.
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 21 Apr 06 - 06:49 PM

"replacement with a democracy" - well that's been a great success...

Subject: RE: BS: Tony Blair Murderer Petition.
From: Strollin' Johnny
Date: 22 Apr 06 - 04:15 AM

I'm with you on that McG, it's a total shambles because the Americans in their usual way went in with no real plan, 'cavalry-charge' fashion. I work for the buggers and I know how short-term and chaotic their thinking is!

BTW I wasn't suggesting that we had actually introduced a working democracy, just expressing a view that I would have accepted it as a valid reason for going it to Iraq. However, they didn't give that as a reason, they kept going on about WMDs instead, which always sounded complete bollocks as far as I was concerned (bearing in mind that the US has, by far and away, the biggest stock of WMDs on earth, and a madman called Bush in charge).
Cheers,
S:0)

Subject: RE: BS: Tony Blair Murderer Petition.
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 22 Apr 06 - 06:15 AM

The subject of America's intervention (military, cultural and otherwise) is one of those imponderables. The whole subject was explored 50 years ago in Graham Greene's novel The Quiet American -and the kind of apparent naivety that believes you can intervene for the better in everybody's lives.

Of course in England, we have plenty of reason to be grateful for American intervention in our affairs. But the countries of Europe, whom America helped in 1941 were, by and large, mature democracies.

There are plenty of fundamentalist Muslims around in England, and for the most part, they seem pretty decent people. However they are a bit like fundamentalist Christians, when you talk to them. You know what I mean, the conversation veers off at a crazy angle when you get on to certain subjects.

I am not sure democracy is really relevant to people like this. Someone once said, you can go through life believing that world is made of green cheese, but it is probably inadvisable. Face it, they ain't listening to our advice.

Subject: RE: BS: Tony Blair Murderer Petition.
From: GUEST,Crazyhorse, sunning it in Belgium
Date: 22 Apr 06 - 11:41 AM

I've not been on the mudcat for a few months (some of us have lives).
I'm amazed that akenaton didn't jump right in and tell us how wicked TB is and that we should all sign up. As has been said, a million on the streets is not a majority and just a year ago Blair did gain another majority in the election so deal with it. My take on democracy is when the majority of the minority accept the majority decision; Ok many people may not like what happened but they seem to accept it. I for one thought he made the correct choice, even with the daily death count (locals killing each other remember) there are far fewer deaths than under the previous regime. Don't bother with the link read "Terror and Liberalism" by Berman instead.

btw, hi wld are you playing in the midlands sometime soon? Be good to hear you again

Subject: RE: BS: Tony Blair Murderer Petition.
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 22 Apr 06 - 09:41 PM

Pedantic point - Labour gained a majority of seats, but they didn't get a majority of the votes. They got more than the Tories, but that's another matter. The biggest block of votes was the block of people who sat on their hands, and didn't vote for any of the candidates.
.............................................

there are far fewer deaths than under the previous regime. Not actually true. If you compare the figures for the years immediately preceding the war and the years following it, the death toll from violence has gone up. Of course the war did mean the ending of sanctions imposed on Iraq had some effect the other way, since those had been killing a lot of people. But that would be rather an arsy-versy argument, since it needn't have taken a war to achieve that.

Subject: RE: BS: Tony Blair Murderer Petition.
From: Teribus
Date: 23 Apr 06 - 04:22 AM

Strollin' Johnny - 22 Apr 06 - 04:15 AM:

"bearing in mind that the US has, by far and away, the biggest stock of WMDs on earth,"

Incorrect Russia has at least 50% more than the US.

MGOH, depending on which set of figures you use, throughout the reign of Saddam Hussein in Iraq (1978/9 to 2003) on average his regime killed somewhere between 154 and 282 people every day.

Those figures will mean nothing to the old school dyed in the wool far left socialists (a-la Harold Pinter), who froth at the mouth at the evils of the US and decry the hundreds of thousands killed by these wicked democratic capitalist regimes, while completely ignoring and denying the millions killed by socialist communism.

Subject: RE: BS: Tony Blair Murderer Petition.
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 23 Apr 06 - 04:30 AM

Thanks for the interest Crazyhorse. I never was the folkclubs favourite. What i need is a rambling song. I (silly me!) listened to Folkwaves the other week. there was Bellowhead singing I'm a Rambling Sailor, then the Tannahill Weavers sang I'm a rambling Hielander, then there was a Bulgarian choir, then I lost the will to live.

Did a support slot for Kisty McGee last night in Sharpe's old pottery - a redveloped brick kiln in Swadlicote - audience a bit po faced, but they did a good cheese and onion sandwich.

Next wednesday I play Farnsfield cricket club, but I've got a heart condition. And I don't think I'll do any more. I felt quite ill last night. At some point you just have to face it, the music was something that took a lot of effort - probably more than my ability warranted - and it didn't really work out.

I'm down to do a couple of ten minute spots at the Vale of Belvoir Festival and Crich Tram museum festival, now that I think of it. I'll get through them somehow, and I think that will be it.

Tony Blair, a murderer - yeh why not? What shall we call him? Every good murderer has a rock and roll name - The Yorkshire Ripper, The Black panther, The acid bath horror, ......

Subject: RE: BS: Tony Blair Murderer Petition.
From: Once Famous
Date: 23 Apr 06 - 05:18 AM

To the Guest who started this post:

I am leaving in an hour from the heart of London killing some time while my son is getting ready.

I've seen your angry type on the streets of London now firsthand. You make me want to puke with your ignorance!

Subject: RE: BS: Tony Blair Murderer Petition.
From: Bunnahabhain
Date: 23 Apr 06 - 05:43 AM

So long as Blair is convinced he is God, or possibly just an Archangel, then such a petition would be pointless.
"I am striking down the Evil doers, I can never be wrong. The collateral damege in Sodom and Gommorah was probably worse then Bagdahd too."

Subject: RE: BS: Tony Blair Murderer Petition.
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 23 Apr 06 - 07:15 AM

ah martin!

in the words of the immortal ralph, let me take you by the hand and lead you through the streets of london, let me show you show something, and try and change your mind.....

Subject: RE: BS: Tony Blair Murderer Petition.
From: Strollin' Johnny
Date: 23 Apr 06 - 02:28 PM

Teribus, pedantry will not obscure the truth of the point I was making, which is that the USA, led by the lunatic Bush, has control of a huge stock of WMDs but, in true Bully-Boy fashion, they're quite happy to get a gang of their mates together (led by the sycophantic Bliar) to kick the shit out of much weaker and infinitely poorer nation who might (but clearly, in hindsight, did not) aspire to join that very same club. And all on the basis of what we now know were barefaced lies. Mmmmmm.

Subject: RE: BS: Tony Blair Murderer Petition.
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 23 Apr 06 - 04:47 PM

Saddam killed an awful lot of people, largely during the years when he was seen as a friend to be supported by Washington, that's true enough.   But in more recent times he'd had to pull in his claws.

As I said, the estimate for the number of violent deaths in the years before the invasion is lower than the estimate for violent deaths in the years following it - that applies even if you leave out the deaths during the immediate period of the invasion and the pre-invasion softening-up bombing.

It may be possible to argue that this was and is a price worth paying for eliminating the Saddam regime - but it should be recognised that it is and contrinues to be a real "price". The claim that the death rate is down because of the invasion just does not stand up to scrutiny.

Subject: RE: BS: Tony Blair Murderer Petition.
From: Teribus
Date: 24 Apr 06 - 12:34 AM

"bearing in mind that the US has, by far and away, the biggest stock of WMDs on earth" Strolling Johnny that statement of yours was incorrect, I merely pointed that out, as you yourself said, you could have put the point that you were trying to make without that lie.

MGOH:
"Saddam killed an awful lot of people, largely during the years when he was seen as a friend to be supported by Washington, that's true enough."

Kevin can you recall the names of those friendly and supportive US citizens who served in the capacity as US Ambassador in Baghdad in the period 1967 to 2003? Can you explain why, whilst being supported by Washington, during Saddam Hussein's time in power the arms purchased by his regime for his armed forces were supplied exclusively by Russia, China and France.


As for,"....in more recent times he'd had to pull in his claws". I believe that change of heart had been brought about by the following contributing factors:
- The defeat of his armed forces in Desert Storm
- The presence of British and American Marines in the Kurdish North immediately after Desert Storm
- The imposition of the Northern and Southern No-Fly Zones
- The imposition of UN Sanctions

All of which, as I recollect you objected to.

Subject: RE: BS: Tony Blair Murderer Petition.
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 24 Apr 06 - 03:23 AM

I think I'm almost with Terribus on this one. Saddam was a son of a bitch. And as I recall, not the biggest son of a bitch in that area.

No one is saying that the prices being paid aren't real. certainly not the relatives of our troops being killed out there.