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Subject: BS: HAVE A GLORIOUS TWELFTH! From: *#1 PEASANT* Date: 12 Jul 10 - 08:06 AM HAVE A GLORIOUS TWELFTH! http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LPYYn5w8T1s&feature=related a GLORIOUS TWELFTH Conrad |
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Subject: RE: BS: HAVE A GLORIOUS TWELFTH! From: Charmion Date: 12 Jul 10 - 09:17 AM As usual at such times of the year -- the other being 17 March -- I'm wearing black. |
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Subject: RE: BS: HAVE A GLORIOUS TWELFTH! From: Charmion Date: 12 Jul 10 - 09:18 AM By the way, the truly "Glorious Twelfth" is 12 August, the first day of grouse season. |
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Subject: RE: BS: HAVE A GLORIOUS TWELFTH! From: alanabit Date: 12 Jul 10 - 09:30 AM That clip looked simply like an ostentatious display of bad manners to me. If Christians were to provoke Moslems like that where I live, they would rightly be prosecuted. It may well be a tradition, but so were hanging, bear baiting and hare coursing once. The sooner it is gone the better. |
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Subject: RE: BS: HAVE A GLORIOUS TWELFTH! From: dick greenhaus Date: 12 Jul 10 - 09:56 AM first time I've seen a marching band with melodeons. |
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Subject: RE: BS: HAVE A GLORIOUS TWELFTH! From: theleveller Date: 12 Jul 10 - 10:07 AM Is this what you're trying to encourage, Peasant? belfast riots In the light of the Bloody Sunday report, I think it's disgraceful that these marches are allowed to proceed. It's simply a way to deliberately provoke sectarian rivalry. |
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Subject: RE: BS: HAVE A GLORIOUS TWELFTH! From: frogprince Date: 12 Jul 10 - 10:38 AM Two interesting things about this, as a parade video: First, so far as can be seen in the video, there was only a tiny scattering of people who cared to come out and watch the parade. Second, of all the marchers that came by, I saw exactly one who smiled for a moment. What a glorious, happy, celebrative 0ccasion! |
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Subject: RE: BS: Have a Glorious Twelfth! From: Ebbie Date: 12 Jul 10 - 11:33 AM That's what struck me too, FP. Where is any joy in the remembrance? Just what are they commemorating? They looked just plain nervous to me. The townspeople who stayed away were the ones with good manners. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Have a Glorious Twelfth! From: Bonzo3legs Date: 12 Jul 10 - 11:46 AM No ladies in the march?? |
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Subject: RE: BS: Have a Glorious Twelfth! From: Backwoodsman Date: 12 Jul 10 - 12:04 PM Orangemen, Bonzo. The clue's in the name. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Have a Glorious Twelfth! From: Emma B Date: 12 Jul 10 - 12:06 PM I imagine the choice of the Drumcree parade was quite deliberate This has been probably the most contentious of the Orange order parades in the six counties The annual parade in the town of Portadown followed a 'traditional' route to and from Drumcree church which, over time, became a densely populated mainly-Catholic and nationalist quarter the residents of which sought to re-reoute the parade away from their area, seeing it as "triumphalist" and "supremacist". 'When the parade was banned from Obins Street in 1986, the focus shifted to the parade's return leg along Garvaghy Road. In 1995, the dispute drew the attention of the international media as it led to widespread protests and rioting throughout Northern Ireland. This pattern was repeated every July for the next four years. During this time the dispute led to the deaths of at least five civilians and prompted a massive police and army operation. Since 1998 the parade has been banned from most of the nationalist area, and the violence has subsided' - Wiki History of the conflict surrounding the Drumcree march |
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Subject: RE: BS: Have a Glorious Twelfth! From: artbrooks Date: 12 Jul 10 - 12:24 PM Well, let's see. 320 years ago two British kings (well, one was mostly French and the other Dutch, but let's not quibble) fought it out in Ireland. Of the 2000 dead, about 500 were Williamites and 1500 Jacobites. What has the casualty counts of the "celebrations" been over the years, I wonder? |
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Subject: RE: BS: Have a Glorious Twelfth! From: Will Fly Date: 12 Jul 10 - 12:55 PM From reading your web pages, Conrad, you're obviously a great believer in the idea that 12th July was a great day for freedom. Perhaps you might have amplified your initial post with some thoughts on why you posted it, such as (and I quote): Orientation and Purpose "So..."you are saying to yourself didn't the Defeat of James II at the Battle of the Boyne result in the imposition of those Penal laws which persecuted the Irish?!?!?!And who would want to celebrate that???A n d....the answer is..... You are absolutely W R O N G ! The Penal laws were imposed by Parliament as a result of the civil war waged by the Irish upon the English which started right AFTER James II surrendered, left Ireland and returned to the French court of Louis XIV from whence he had come. James formally ended his uprising in Dublin shortly after the battle when he told his Irish followers to give up, that their cause was lost. (By the way we have James's character reference right here-be sure to know who we are talking about here!-click for it!) (And if James was not bad enough click here to read about his corrupt advisors!) Now you see even Irish Catholics can celebrate! And if you don't believe me just consult: Pietro Ottoboni (Pope Alexander VIII), and before you ask No! he was not English (Born in Venice) It is an absolute fact that he called for all of the church bells of Christendom to be rung in celebration of the defeat of James II----now was the Pope Catholic....you bet ya! In fact July 12th should be celebrated as a national holiday in the Republic of Southern Ireland! You don't agree? You would rather have seen the will of James II put into effect in Ireland?- This is in-fact what he had in mind- This is what he said he was going to do: Principle garrisons should never be entrusted to the Irish Governors or Irish troops; the sons of ancient families should be given an English education, to wean them from their hatred of the English; schools should be established to teach English and by degrees wear out the Irish language, which would be for the advantage of the body of the inhabitants; the Os Macs should be told that the estates declared forfeit by James I and his predecessors could not be restored; no native of Ireland should be lord lieutenant.... So...why would one not wish to celebrate the defeat of this Tyrant "JUST wait one minute guy"....you say..."I know full well that this holiday is some sort of Fraternal Holiday of a Protestant Order and it is really all about them and not......"us" Sorry...absolutely wrong once again..... Were there any Orangemen at the Battle of the Boyne or for that matter in Ireland at all at the time? Absolutely NOT! The Order was not even founded until September 21,1795 and don't take my word for it- ask them! Here is a link to their page: Click for GOLI A word about the Orange Order. I am not a member of the Orange Order. Nor would I choose to be at this point in time because of major disagreements with the way the order is managed. I have attempted to assist the order with many issues. I have gone out of my way at great expense to do so. I have found the management of the order cold to outsiders, uncooperative, and lacking in essential common manners. Significant communications have gone un-answered. Essential actions have not been taken as advised. This however does not mean that those running the order or the order itself are evil. I point out that every organization run by human beings will be imperfect. That the order is conservative beyond necessity, inept, and lacking in common politeness is only a sign of its humanity and in no way represents evil. I would hope however, that the Orange Order would work upon these flaws and at least take the time to respond to ordinary communications in a timely manner. N o w....Can we get to the point? Purpose It is hoped that by studying and taking part in the unfolding of this important holiday in all of its many dimensions that its true significance might become known to all. All too often nations focus only upon their own special days of liberation and celebrate only their own particular pathways to Democracy. The fall of the Absolute monarchs and the evolution of Democratic institutions of government did not happen in one country-in one place-at one time. This process was spread over centuries with milestones in its progress to be found in many countries throughout the world. The defeat of James II, an Absolutist monarch rejected by England, by a tolerant ruler subject to the rule of Parliament is one such milestone. This milestone is of worldwide significance as it marks an important step in the deliverance of mankind from the clutches of the Medieval Absolutist Tyranny.On these pages we shall explore this important history. By following the events of this year's celebration we also might better understand the world and history in which we all live today. By hearing and listening to the viewpoints of the celebrants we will discover and appreciate the great treasures of human diversity. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Have a Glorious Twelfth! From: Bonzo3legs Date: 12 Jul 10 - 01:57 PM "Orangemen, Bonzo. The clue's in the name. " Rather sexist for socialists wouldn't you say? |
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Subject: RE: BS: Have a Glorious Twelfth! From: Emma B Date: 12 Jul 10 - 02:02 PM "By hearing and listening to the viewpoints of the celebrants we will discover and appreciate the great treasures of human diversity." Or by reading some of the viewpoints of the 'celebrants' recorded responses to a couple of the videos about Dumcree on you tube in the last 12 months? My apologies for copying this sickening crap but let's not duck reality and the sectarianism and sheer hatred that still exists 'When we say Ulster we mean British Ulster i thought that everyone knew that you fenian fucks can be real thick cunts ' 'fuck all taigs......i hope you all die of cancer you fenian bastards' 'fenian paedo interbred cunts' |
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Subject: RE: BS: Have a Glorious Twelfth! From: VirginiaTam Date: 12 Jul 10 - 02:31 PM consider the OP folks. this thread was created simply to rile up sympathies. Well here is my only other comment to it I have a friend who sings a lovely Glorio Glorio to the Bold Fenian Men. Wonderful presentation for a compelling message and sends shivers down my spine every time I hear it. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Have a Glorious Twelfth! From: Sandy Mc Lean Date: 12 Jul 10 - 07:34 PM There Were Roses |
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Subject: RE: BS: Have a Glorious Twelfth! From: kendall Date: 12 Jul 10 - 07:49 PM Old Maine saying; The more you stir a turd the more it stinks. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Have a Glorious Twelfth! From: Amergin Date: 12 Jul 10 - 09:17 PM We've Seen Them In Pictures |
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Subject: RE: BS: Have a Glorious Twelfth! From: open mike Date: 12 Jul 10 - 09:39 PM thanks for posting There Were Roses...with a plea for peaceful solution. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Have a Glorious Twelfth! From: catspaw49 Date: 12 Jul 10 - 10:21 PM Gee........I was hoping that Conrad the Super Pissant had forgotten. Like I keep saying, he's so full of shit that Roto-Rooter is opening an entire new branch next door to his wacko house. Conrad will now deny being Orange at all and say the music from all sides needs to sung and celebrated and the wind blew and the shit flew, etc. I also have it on good authority that Conrad has a brother living in Iowa who proves his parents did have a child that lived. Thanks for the inspirational posting Pudley! Spaw |
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Subject: RE: BS: Have a Glorious Twelfth! From: Mrrzy Date: 12 Jul 10 - 11:13 PM Oh, yeah, it IS the 12th of July as it yearly doth come! |
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Subject: RE: BS: Have a Glorious Twelfth! From: *#1 PEASANT* Date: 13 Jul 10 - 01:03 AM Thanks one and all tis glorious indeed~! Keep up the spew. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Have a Glorious Twelfth! From: Keith A of Hertford Date: 13 Jul 10 - 02:25 AM Why so much anger? I do not understand why they want to parade, but they obviously do. I do not understand why muslim women want to cover themselves, but why should anyone object? Leveller, the riot on Saturday was not about a march. It was after midnight! Some Unionists were having a bonfire party in their own area, and a mob went to attack them. The police said they had prepared petrol bombs in advance. All the violence was between police and the attackers. Why blame the Unionists? Emma, I am sure you could have got some offensive quotes from those attackers if anyone had tried. I looked at the Drumcree video posted. There are no paramilitary trappings. They are not all in step or swinging their arms. They look around as they walk. It is hardly even marching. Surely you would have to choose to be offended by it? The last few years have been quiet, so it looks as if people HAVE chosen to be offended. Sinn Fein says the violence is being orchestrated by dissident Republicans. If you support the demonstrators, be clear that is who you are supporting. Does anyone here defend the dissident Republican groups? |
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Subject: RE: BS: Have a Glorious Twelfth! From: Jim Carroll Date: 13 Jul 10 - 04:22 AM Whatever they might be claimed to be celebrating, these marches are aggressive demonstrations of the supposed superiority of one faction of the North-East Irish population over the other - anybody who has witnessed them up close are left in no doubt about this. Proof of their belligerent nature can be seen in the fact that there are constant demands by the organisers for them to be allowed to take place through Catholic areas. They are as 'traditional' as bull-baiting and public hanging once were, and in the atmosphere of trying to bring the two populations of North-East Ireland together, they act as a huge stumbling-block. Jim Carroll |
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Subject: RE: BS: Have a Glorious Twelfth! From: Keith A of Hertford Date: 13 Jul 10 - 04:31 AM Are demands to march through Catholic areas acceded to? That would be wrong. How can you tell that they are "aggressive demonstrations of the supposed superiority" ? Does anyone have to "witness them up close"? Hanging and bear baiting cause suffering. How are they analagous to these parades? |
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Subject: RE: BS: Have a Glorious Twelfth! From: Keith A of Hertford Date: 13 Jul 10 - 04:33 AM Do you support the dissident groups Jim? |
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Subject: RE: BS: Have a Glorious Twelfth! From: Jim Carroll Date: 13 Jul 10 - 04:59 AM All; "Do you support the dissident groups Jim?" My attitude to dissident groups is clearly set out on the 'Bloody Sunday' thread where Keith and I had a long and somewhat unpleasant falling-out. I have no intention in bringing that dispute to this thread - I hope Keith feels the same. Jim Carroll |
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Subject: RE: BS: Have a Glorious Twelfth! From: Keith A of Hertford Date: 13 Jul 10 - 05:16 AM I might have to disagree again Jim. According to Sinn Fein, the violence was orchestrated by those dissident republican groups, and we can hardly discuss it without reference to them can we? |
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Subject: RE: BS: Have a Glorious Twelfth! From: Jim Carroll Date: 13 Jul 10 - 08:49 AM It is reported in today's Irish Times that "There was serious violence over the July 12th period, with dozens of police officers injured during disturbances in Belfast. The trouble flared through Sunday night, yesterday and last night. Rioters tried to hi-jack the Belfast to Dublin train". Jim Carroll |
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Subject: RE: BS: Have a Glorious Twelfth! From: Keith A of Hertford Date: 13 Jul 10 - 09:10 AM Sinn Féin's Gerry Kelly said dissident republicans, from the Real IRA, were orchestrating the violence. At the height of the rioting women in Ardoyne found children playing with a loaded rifle and handed it into police. Petrol bombs, fireworks, stones, and bottles were thrown at police after they tried to move rioters away from a parade route. Two of three hijacked vans were pushed at police lines. The Ardoyne priest Father Gary Donegan said the trouble was started by outsiders. "Myself and many people were looking at people last night that we'd never seen in the area before in our lives. "It was as if people had been bussed into the area for this very purpose and that this was being very much orchestrated," he said There were other disturbances in Derry and the Country Antrim village of Rasharkin overnight after nationalist demonstraters attacked police officers wedged between them and Orangemen and their supporters. http://www.guardian.co.uk/uk/2009/jul/14/belfast-riots-real-ira-blame |
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Subject: RE: BS: Have a Glorious Twelfth! From: Keith A of Hertford Date: 13 Jul 10 - 09:42 AM Here is video of the rioters in Ardoyne. Would any police force in the world show as much courageous restraint as PSNI does here? http://news.bbc. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Have a Glorious Twelfth! From: *#1 PEASANT* Date: 13 Jul 10 - 10:18 AM Exactly. S-F needs to reign in these street gangs or else they will loose credibility. Doesn't matter that they are some sort of splinter anything. These people claim to represent nationalist concerns so the nationalist community needs to reign them in- their responsibility. Not only was there restraint but it was known that petrol bombs etc were being put together and yet no one did anything- The nationalist community at large should be the first line of defense and the nationalist community bears the responsibility for any group acting in its name. They should compensate the victims of the violence against police and a peaceful, legal, non confrontational parade. Conrad |
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Subject: RE: BS: Have a Glorious Twelfth! From: Jim Carroll Date: 13 Jul 10 - 10:28 AM Who is responsible for which single act of violence can only possibly be of interest to those who have selected which particular side of the sectarian divide they are rooting for and wish to blame 'the others' for the trouble. Violence takes place where and when it does each year because giant, provocative marches are allowed to take place throughout the North Eastern counties of Ireland at this time of year, and they do just that - provoke. While they are allowed to continue, so will the violence, and due to the delicate political situation in Ireland today, they are quite likely to escalate into full-scale warfare again, as they did in the past. Jim Carroll |
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Subject: RE: BS: Have a Glorious Twelfth! From: Keith A of Hertford Date: 13 Jul 10 - 11:17 AM Jim, "because giant, provocative marches are allowed to take place throughout the North Eastern counties of Ireland at this time of year," Gerry Kelly, Sinn Fein MLA for N Belfast said, "There are only a handful of Orange Order parades which are contentious. It is time that the Loyal Orders faced up to this reality and entered into dialogue with local residents to resolve these issues." http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/northern_ireland/10608851.stm |
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Subject: RE: BS: Have a Glorious Twelfth! From: gnu Date: 13 Jul 10 - 04:38 PM Don't march. There's no reason to March. There's good reason not to march. If ya gotta march, maybe hand out cookies (biscuits - before I am assailed again) and tea? Little shamrock icing decorations with orange and green shamrocks on each. A "peace" march. A "goodwill" march. Hug some Cat'lics and kiss some babies in a show of mutual support and solidarity in a lasting peace. I am all for "heritage" but the blatant "piss on you" attitude is disgusting. Of course, I am an ocean away and don't understand. Just kinda glad my great-great fucked off from there. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Have a Glorious Twelfth! From: Ebbie Date: 13 Jul 10 - 05:36 PM I have a question: What is so 'glorious' about the event? In 1690? I recognize that the opposing sides held - and hold - very different views and that the outcome of the battle cemented those views. However, surely, surely, it is not necessary nor desirable for one side to celebrate the other's defeat in such an in-your-face manner? More than 300 years later? Surely, surely, a more appropriate commemoration would be held in their own churches and lodges? Kind of like if the Allies, once a year, gathered in Germany, Italy and Japan and strutted through the land. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Have a Glorious Twelfth! From: Keith A of Hertford Date: 13 Jul 10 - 06:02 PM Why still celebrate Thanksgiving, or Independence Day? Such a long time ago now. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Have a Glorious Twelfth! From: Ebbie Date: 13 Jul 10 - 06:06 PM Methinks you are very selective in your response, Keith. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Have a Glorious Twelfth! From: GUEST,mg Date: 13 Jul 10 - 07:51 PM I am Catholic and I think, without understanding the situation at all, but just in general, if it is an event that has always been held in the same place in the same way, similar to a St. Patrick's Day parade...and there was no intention toward violence...I would want the parade to continue. It might have to be stopped or modified because of violence, but ...it is of course complicated...mg |
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Subject: RE: BS: Have a Glorious Twelfth! From: Leadfingers Date: 13 Jul 10 - 09:09 PM The problem is that 'Traditionally' The Orange Lodge marched through Catholic (NOT Republican) neighbourhoods to prove their 'Superiority' which (MOST Strangely) caused some ill feeling ! |
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Subject: RE: BS: Have a Glorious Twelfth! From: Ebbie Date: 13 Jul 10 - 09:16 PM Yep. I don't have a clue as to why that should be. Some people are just so petty. :) |
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Subject: RE: BS: Have a Glorious Twelfth! (Drumcree Parade) From: Backwoodsman Date: 14 Jul 10 - 01:03 AM "If ya gotta march, maybe hand out cookies (biscuits - before I am assailed again)" Well, no 'assault' was intended, gnu - just a little lighthearted comment on one small difference amongst the many that define our cultures. A sense of humour is always a handy thing to have (that's 'humor' for the sake of Americans, who are notoriously bad at speling) :-) :-) |
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Subject: RE: BS: Have a Glorious Twelfth! (Drumcree Parade) From: Keith A of Hertford Date: 14 Jul 10 - 01:20 AM There are thousands of these parades, but only a "handful" are contentious. If there was a parade down my street that I did not like, I would work towards getting it re routed, and meanwhile find something else to be doing as it passed. It is just a parade, and only once a year. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Have a Glorious Twelfth! (Drumcree Parade) From: Jim Carroll Date: 14 Jul 10 - 03:34 AM "Some people are just so petty." Not 'petty' Ebbie - it goes with the history and it serves a specific purpose - it does what Leadfingers says, it 'proves their superiority'. It's fairly obvious from the Gerry Kelly quote that the Nationalists are prepared to make compromises and that he at least does not regard all Protestants as 'the enemy', as once was the case; I fear that his appeal that "It is time that the Loyal Orders faced up to this reality..." will continue to fall on deaf ears. There has never been any argument that the contentious Unionists form a minority in the North East, but that minority are vociferous and they dominate the Unionist movement - they are the public, threatening face of Unionism and they continue to make the running. We experienced the threat of the marchers a few years ago when we were foolish enough to cross from Scotland into Ireland on the Stranraer to Larne ferry on the day before to the Orange marches - terrifying or what. Our English accents saved us from any real trouble, though my Liverpool one got me accused of being a 'Taigue' a couple of times. We travelled through Belfast and Derry as quickly as we could and breathed a sigh of relief when we crossed into the sanity of Donegal. In contrast, we were here in Miltown for a traditional music school at the time the hunger strikers were dying. Catholics and Protestants playing music and drinking together for a whole week with not a hint of trouble, despite the fact that the street was bedecked with black flags in respect for the men dying in prison. There were a couple of newly cmposed songs on the subject sung that week, but no hatred and no violence. There is no question that people should have the right to march to celebrate..... whatever, but that right comes with responsibilities and the marches should not be allowed to promote sectarian hatred, as they are by the demagogues. Jim Carroll |
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Subject: RE: BS: Have a Glorious Twelfth! (Drumcree Parade) From: Will Fly Date: 14 Jul 10 - 04:11 AM It is just a parade, and only once a year. So that's all right then. On this principle I'm about to organise a street parade on 6th August. The marchers will be descedants of the members of the Allied Forces from 1941-45, and the venue will be Hiroshima. Drums beating, pipes whistling, plenty of sashes and regalia, etc. I can't visualise any problem with this. After all, It is just a parade, and only once a year. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Have a Glorious Twelfth! (Drumcree Parade) From: Keith A of Hertford Date: 14 Jul 10 - 04:21 AM I have almost no knowledge of this. I have only ever seen one small Orange parade and it was a quiet Sunday morning without even a band. (One of the marchers was the host at our B&B. A very nice couple.) I agree with all your last post Jim, except I do not understand why you say they parade to "prove their superiority." Is that not just how you choose to see it? It is just a band and people walking. It is their one way of celebrating their cultural identity. Presbyterianism has deprived them of music, dance and song. They have their bands and they march and they love it. Loyalist do not have the monopoly on hate and intolerance. I could see plenty of that in those republican rioters. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Have a Glorious Twelfth! (Drumcree Parade) From: Jim Carroll Date: 14 Jul 10 - 04:44 AM "I do not understand why you say they parade to "prove their superiority." You seem to have led a very sheltered life. A couple of verses of "We are the sons of Billy and to Hell with Popery" should sort out this for you. A few years ago a friend on a visit to Belfast decided to balance his collection of Irish music with some Orange songs, so he asked around and was directed to places wheere he could buy some 'under-the-counter' home made albums - I don't think he quite got over the experience - a torrent of sectarian, racist, right-wing hatred - the pride of place of his collection is held by 'The Pope's a Darkie'. "Loyalist do not have the monopoly on hate and intolerance." No they don't, but it is their marches and their insistence that they should march in places that will cause the most disruption and insult that instigates and keeps that hatred alive and simmering. JIm Carroll |
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Subject: RE: BS: Have a Glorious Twelfth! (Drumcree Parade) From: Keith A of Hertford Date: 14 Jul 10 - 04:53 AM A sheltered life. Not in terms of being exposed to songs full of rabid hatred of the English and glorying in killing us. Will, you and the allied descendents do not live in Hiroshima. How acceptable would it be for Japanese Americans to demand the banning of Vets. Day parades in USA? |
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Subject: RE: BS: Have a Glorious Twelfth! (Drumcree Parade) From: Jim Carroll Date: 14 Jul 10 - 05:37 AM Keith - I have no intention of entering into a dialogue with you and dominating another thread, especially knowing yur tendency towards invective. Irish political songs tend to be historical interpretations of incidents of conflict during the six centuries England has dominated Ireland, pretty much the same as their counterpart English ones are when dealing with wars with the French, Spanish or whoever we happened to be at war with at any particular time and these are usually aimed at English landlords or soldiers and sometimes politicians. I know of no Irish songs whatever that are aimed at the British as a people, unlike many of the Orange songs and chants to be heard on these marches, which are directed at Catholics for having a different religion. "banning of Vets. Day parades in USA?" If Vet's Day parades were racist or sectarian attacks on the Japanese people it would be perfectly in order for any reasonable person to object to them and demand their banning - under the laws of the country, if nothing else. Jim Carroll |
