GEFF and Proud of it

Subject: RE: Folklore: GEFF and Proud of it
From: Leadfingers
Date: 10 Apr 08 - 07:41 PM

I am just back from what is arguably one of the better 'small' clubs in southern England - Askew Sisters tonight did a superb evening to about thirty people ! The club manages on a mix of singers Nights , when EVERYONE pays £2 and Guest nights when EVERYONE bar the Guest act pays £4 . The singers nights support the guest nights , so that the agreed fee is guaranteed , regardless of actual turn out . We are fortunate that we do have a very good stock of competent floor singers who turn out most weeks , but we still have the people who cant even read a poem from a book without stumbling over the words , and the others who cant remember the first verse of a song ! For the most part , though , MOST of the floor singers do a well prepared and enjoyable set of songs/tunes/whatever . For US , it works , and the people we do book always seem happy to come back !
For us , thats Good Enough !

Subject: RE: Folklore: GEFF and Proud of it
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 11 Apr 08 - 03:29 AM

But the most important thing is the passion, not the need for remuneration.

It seems very sad that some who know much are so set on excluding the mass of us who are not up to their standards. The real heroes of folk music (I think especially of Martin Carthy) as far as I know always encourage, and never dismiss.

And of course Mr Carthy, good as he is, does it just for 'passion' and never asks for remuneration. Clubs should of course just do it for the passion as well. Charge the price of a pint. Pay the artists peanuts. After all, it's only folk music isn't it. We shouldn't pay real money. Just do it for the passion.

Listen, no-one is about excluding anyone as far as I can see. Everyone bar none has the the right to warble, twang or mis-beat their drum to their hearts content. It's fine on a singers night as long as people know what to expect. But do you think that even St Martin would be happy if his support act on a 1000 seat concert was me? Tell you what - he may be the first time, but when only 500 people turn up next time he wouldn't be. When there were only 100 the next. When he couldn't get gigs at all...

Sorry but we can't, on the one hand, expect professional performances from the top artists and then, on the other, say money doesn't come into it. And poor performers should stick to the venues where they are welcome and where the audience is, like me, easy to please.

Cheers

Dave.

Subject: RE: Folklore: GEFF and Proud of it
From: GUEST,Ewan Spawned a Monster
Date: 11 Apr 08 - 03:34 AM

"I really am driven to despair at the number of people who now seem to see folk music as entertainment to be consumed, and in respect of which they have consumers' rights."

The singaround and the session are both participatory events where standards are determined by what those taking part are capable of and want. There is no consumer - all involved are producers. Essentially they are private parties others can poke their heads round the door of but have no rights in any meaningful sense to make demands about.

The concert is an event where someone determines they are going to charge a fee for members of the public to listen to music. As consumers, those members of the public have every right to complain if they are served up a bag o'shite. Is it the case that 'folk' is exempt from the normal accepted standards one would hop for from any other musical genre? Why so?

The folk club appears to be a late twentienth century anachronism that wants to straddle the two: it wants to charge admission to the public as in scenario two but wants the standards and expectations of scenario one to apply. Some folk clubs are clearly better than this. However, when I am forced to think about folk club folkies, I am reminded of aging teds swaggering along the front at Southend on a wet bank holiday weekend. The two groups are probably about as relevant as each other.

And increasing number of young people who play and listen to traditional music don't bother with folk clubs or set up their own alternatives. After all, folk clubs are what grandad like. That's healthy - better that the musical baton is passed on than allowed to rot in the hands of those who were carrying it a generation or two ago and still believe that their way of doing things is the only acceptable way.

By all means enjoy the clubs, but please don't assume that they are all there is and don't get your knickers in a twist when some of us point out that there is more to traditional music than the remaining remnants of your 1960s and 1970s youth movement.

The raw, the young, the untutored, the passionate, the enthusiastic, the experimenters, the mistake makers, the ones that make you say 'what a bleedin' racket' and all the rest of them WILL get out there and some of them will become the Martin Carthys and Eliza Carthys of tommorrow. They probably won't be doing it round at grandad's place, though. Why would they want to?

Lastly I return to 'Mr Grumpy's view from the bridge, quoted above. Please read his whole post for context, but his words are far more elitist and excluding than anything those who argue that having professional traditional singers is a good thing say: he would exclude from this music the entire public who cannot or will not play an instrument or sing. Folk music - the scene that celebrates itself and assumes no-one else is good enough to have an opinion.

Good enough for folk? I don't know. Beyond criticism? So it would seem.

Subject: RE: Folklore: GEFF and Proud of it
From: Banjiman
Date: 11 Apr 08 - 04:07 AM

OK Mr Grumpy.....you have a right to criticise, you clearly have a vision of how things should be, are YOU doing anything to support your view of the world....do YOU organise any events along the lines you suggest?

I repeat the same challenge to Captain Ginger....who I note hasn't replied to this point raised with him (I assume) earlier. What are YOU doing to change things?

Ewan Spawned a monster....are YOU doing anything constructive or just spouting hot air?

My point here is that both participative and "concert" events are part of the folk/ trad world. We should stop moaning about how others organise things and if we think we know better use that energy to create new opportunities for both participative and "performance" events......oh and spend some time thinking about the marketing (i.e. how to make these events attractive) to those outside our immediate clique.

Paul

Subject: RE: Folklore: GEFF and Proud of it
From: GUEST,Ewan Spawned a Monster
Date: 11 Apr 08 - 05:29 AM

Benjiman, your challenge is a good one as long as 'doing something' doesn't mean 'running a folk club', because not everyone wants to run a folk club and its only one of many ways to skin a cat. I *am* doing something as it happens. It relates completely to making folk music, but it is not happening within that particular sub-genre of folk music, the folk club scene. As soon as I'm ready to share it with the world and not a moment before I will do: unless it turns out not to be *good enough*, in which case I'll have the good grace to keep it to myself. I imagine many in the folk club world - though probably not you, Benjiman - will not greatly approve.

"My point here is that both participative and "concert" events are part of the folk/ trad world"

So is mine. My 'issue' is with the third and probably smallest sector of Tom Bliss's venn diagram above (his post was a very helpful contribution to this discussion) the *folk club*. Many of its proponents here on Mudcat and elsewhere seem to think their corner of the folk world is the only one that counts for anything. The rest (the larger part) of the folk world are just seen as opportunists hanging on the coat-tails of the great god of folk - the folk club. Without the folk club, the mantra goes, none of them would exist. Poooph! That was the sound of scores of musicians and singers disappearing in a puff of smoke. Oh. It didn't really happen.

Folk clubs are ideal for those that like folk clubs. Good luck to all of you: I for one would hate to do anything that might spoil your enjoyment of something that is so obviously precious to you. I'm not going to start a campaign to get you shut down or set up pickets or turn up and shout obscenities. You're safe from me. But please do not assume the 'folk club scene' and for want of a better term, 'the folk scene' are symonymous, or that everything that exists beyond the hallowed walls of this peculiarly british and musty institution is wrong, irrelevant or a threat.

Before we know it bridge club members are going to be going round telling people who attend whist drives and poker schools that they are playing cards in the wrong way.

Subject: RE: Folklore: GEFF and Proud of it
From: TheSnail
Date: 11 Apr 08 - 05:52 AM

GUEST,Ewan Spawned a Monster

Beyond criticism? So it would seem.

According to Tom Bliss there are around 300 folk clubs booking guests in the country. I would reckon that means at least 1000 people working as as organisers. I'd be interested to hear if any of us actually made any money at it. I think, at most clubs, the organisers pay on the door like everybody else.
I'm sure we'd all welcome constructive criticism and useful ideas.

What we get is -

Nigel Spencer:

the half-arsed, the lazy or the can't be bothered.

It's all a bit sad really. No, not sad. Pathetic. Insular. Smug. Self defeating. Short sighted. And so on.

What I do see here is a insular, hermetically-sealed world, shot through with bile and rancour and willing to atrophy rather than engage with the outside world. What I see is a scene that hates its young and resents everything they are trying to acheive.

Captain Ginger:

the "it's folk, so who cares" brigade

I repeat: there exists among some in the folk world an attitude that crap performances don't matter because it's only folk.

the procession of the half-dead and the tone-deaf up the pub stairs to the local folk club and the dreadful bleatings and twanglings that they hear therefrom.

In your smug, complacent southern comfort, ignorance really is bliss, it would seem.

Diane Easby:

your "regulars and residents" are still unable to tune, find an appropriate pitch, remember the words or perform PROFESSIONALLY

Then I'm told -

not to bridle at imagined slights and be so stubbornly determined to take comments personally.

Well, how could I.

All this from people who wear it as a badge of merit that they hardly ever go to folk clubs.

Bring us your suggestions and ideas. Help your local club with the administration. If you haven't got a local folk club, start one. Come and help put the chairs out, pay your ticket so all those struggling professionals can earn an honest crust. Do a floor spot so we can hear how it should be done. Come and drink the landlords beer so he looks favourably on us.

But if you can't do anything to help, GET OUT OF OUR WAY.

Subject: RE: Folklore: GEFF and Proud of it
From: GUEST,Ewan Spawned a Monster
Date: 11 Apr 08 - 05:56 AM

Again the Snail makes the mistake of assuming that "do it my way or piss off" is a reasonable position to take.

Subject: RE: Folklore: GEFF and Proud of it
From: TheSnail
Date: 11 Apr 08 - 06:00 AM

GUEST,Ewan Spawned a Monster

Many of its proponents here on Mudcat and elsewhere seem to think their corner of the folk world is the only one that counts for anything. The rest (the larger part) of the folk world are just seen as opportunists hanging on the coat-tails of the great god of folk - the folk club. Without the folk club, the mantra goes, none of them would exist. Poooph!

I didn't get anywhere with asking Captain Ginger to back up his accusations with evidence but can you produce a single quote that remotely reflects that?

Subject: RE: Folklore: GEFF and Proud of it
From: GUEST,Jon
Date: 11 Apr 08 - 06:02 AM

Bollocks Ewan.

Snail has being told how clubs should run (ie. they must not have artists that do not come up to the perceived standards of those who don't even go there) and is asking to be left alone if that's all these others have to offer.

Subject: RE: Folklore: GEFF and Proud of it
From: GUEST,Jon
Date: 11 Apr 08 - 06:11 AM

BTW, Snail, I will give you the evidence I've seen offered in these threads that amateur GEEFers mess the scene up for everyone.

1. That a very competent singer played on radio can attract negative comments from a BBC presenter.

2. That a professional main stage act did get pissed and mess things up on stage.

Subject: RE: Folklore: GEFF and Proud of it
From: Banjiman
Date: 11 Apr 08 - 06:25 AM

Ewan Spawned a Monster... No you're quite right, I don't mean you have to run a folk club...folk clubs are but one spoke in a big machine. For me locally, it is the most effective (and thoroughly enjoyable!) thing I can do. With the big plus that it is walking distance from my house!

We tend to get out and play both regionally and increasingly nationally in pubs, "acoustic" nights, festivals and folk clubs...it is great to have one night a month when we can relax, listen to some other excellent musicians/ singers in the "concert" and then play a few songs/ tunes with our friends in the singaround and stumble home afterwards! Luckily for us there are enough like minded souls that this is viable. We do attract a few normal people as well as "folkies"....some of them do find the singaround a little challenging (depending on who is performing what) but as the income from the folk events is helping to keep our local village pub open they do forgive any eccentricities.

You're quite right, I approve of anything that helps to get the music out there. I am glad to hear that you are organising something, especially if it is "outreach" work! Folk/ Trad music deserves not to be locked away. By the way it's BAnjiman not Benjiman.....I play a banjo (sorry...not very English Trad!!). I look forward to hearing about your event, when you are ready.

Anyone else feel motivated to back up their gripes (whatever they are!)with action?

Paul

Subject: RE: Folklore: GEFF and Proud of it
From: GUEST,Ewan Spawned a Monster
Date: 11 Apr 08 - 06:33 AM

Sorry Banjiman. About the name thing.

Subject: RE: Folklore: GEFF and Proud of it
From: Banjiman
Date: 11 Apr 08 - 06:50 AM

Ewan

"Sorry Banjiman. About the name thing." Really, not a problem!

Paul

Subject: RE: Folklore: GEFF and Proud of it
From: GUEST, Mr Grumpy
Date: 11 Apr 08 - 07:18 AM

No, I did not suggest that people like Martin Carthy should not get paid.

I said, of the experts "No-one would begrudge them a better living."

When the test becomes if a performance is professional entertainment, then welcome to the Pussycat Dolls of folk music.

If anyone expects me to tug my forelock it shall not be happy that we part. How mighty some people must be that they cannot bear to be offended by the ordinary mortals. Do they carry fragrant scents to hold to their noses when forced to pass the common throng?

Subject: RE: Folklore: GEFF and Proud of it
From: Dave Sutherland
Date: 11 Apr 08 - 07:20 AM

Although I might defend the folk club scene, or at least the scene in which I am involved, let me also stress that in any given year I will take in as much folk music at festivals, concerts, mini concerts, Arts Centres (while they were open in the East Midlands),Village Ventures, workshops and sessions (some of which I have found far more insular than any folk club)as time and money will allow. Taking in anything from Rory McLeod to Jeff Wesley - but 99%of the time I know where I'll get most satisfaction hearing it.

Subject: RE: Folklore: GEFF and Proud of it
From: TheSnail
Date: 11 Apr 08 - 07:26 AM

GUEST,Ewan Spawned a Monster

I don't think the three people he cited are exactly *telling him how his club should be run*

No, they are damning the whole folk club scene (with a few honourable exceptions) to Hell on the grounds that it is responsible for the negative public image of folk music expressed by Matthew Parris (although it now all turns out to be Alex Campbell's fault, apparently).

Good luck with your venture. You will probably need some help along the way so it pays to work out who to be nice to. You won't get a lot of help from the likes of Nigel Spencer, Captain Ginger or Diane Easby.

And try and read people's posts before replying to them.

Subject: RE: Folklore: GEFF and Proud of it
From: Rasener
Date: 11 Apr 08 - 07:36 AM

I do not understand why people are so argumentative about what is right or wrong about live music (not, I do not use the word Folk).
If somebody decides to run an evening of live music, be it sing around, session, concert, open mike, then it up to them to decide how its run and whether they will charge entrance fee or not. The same applies to whether performers (in its broadest sense) get paid or not.
We should all be working together to keep music alive.

I have always run Concert style events and for me that's the way it will always be at Faldingworth Live.
I do attend other folk clubs and the odd Folk festival.
I attend regularly the Gainsborough Folk Club (of which I am a member), which is primarily sing around with the occasional guest. I enjoy going there as it has a very good atmosphere, with a good variety of music, comedy and good family type environment amongst friends.

I don't sing or play any instrument. As such I am part of the listening audience as well as organising.

Wise up guys and support live music in whatever shape or form it comes in.

Subject: RE: Folklore: GEFF and Proud of it
From: The Borchester Echo
Date: 11 Apr 08 - 07:52 AM

Blimey, what a mess there is after Snail has been throwing his toys all over the Sussex countryside. Can someone smack his bottom and give him something to caterwaul about?

There are a number of people doing stuff throughout this land with trad music in a way that attracts people (especially younger ones) who wouldn't be seen dead in an old-style "f*lk club" after prior horrendous experience and hostility. "Ewan" (and his ilk) who are setting up alternative projects and venues can rely on my support.

And I'd thank the Snail to try taking his own advice to actually read posts before replying. But he won't. It would ruin the old, old, (imaginary) story of his perpetual whinge.

Subject: RE: Folklore: GEFF and Proud of it
From: TheSnail
Date: 11 Apr 08 - 08:04 AM

Surely Diane, you'll be far too busy organising the Thirsk racecourse festival. How's it going so far? Got a date planned?

Subject: RE: Folklore: GEFF and Proud of it
From: The Borchester Echo
Date: 11 Apr 08 - 08:11 AM

Won't happen till 2010 at the earliest, depending on funding. Plenty of time to save up your pennies.
Meanwhile, I've delegated the bottom smacking, haven't I?
That's the great thing about originating a project - you get to choose the more congenial tasks for yourself.

Subject: RE: Folklore: GEFF and Proud of it
From: Banjiman
Date: 11 Apr 08 - 08:17 AM

Just a light hearted observation.....do snails have bottoms?

Subject: RE: Folklore: GEFF and Proud of it
From: Rasener
Date: 11 Apr 08 - 08:17 AM

You mean to say that you don't fancy smacking a snails arse (er bottom) Diane :-)

Subject: RE: Folklore: GEFF and Proud of it
From: TheSnail
Date: 11 Apr 08 - 08:38 AM

Banjiman

Just a light hearted observation.....do snails have bottoms?

Diane wouldn't know. She thinks snails are crustaceans.

Subject: RE: Folklore: GEFF and Proud of it
From: theleveller
Date: 11 Apr 08 - 08:43 AM

Putting aside the issue of professional (i.e. people who you pay to listen to) performers for a moment, I would suggest that anyone who wants to perform in public (I'm not talking about singarounds with mates here) should first indulge in a little honest introspection. In my experience, most people want to give the best performance that they are capable of and don't like making arses of themselves (or getting them smacked - in public at least), and a good way to do this is to first record your performance – there are some reasonably-priced digital recorders available now that give excellent results.

Then you need to ask yourself some hard questions:
"Do I like what I hear?"
"Am I as good as I thought?"
"Am I as good as I can be?"
"Am I as good as I want to be?"
"Will people enjoy what I do?"
"Do I care?"

And, to my mind, most important of all:
"How can I improve?"

What you do with the information you glean is up to you; for me it was both reassuring and depressing, but now I won't perform a song in public without taking the test.

Subject: RE: Folklore: GEFF and Proud of it
From: Giant Folk Eyeball (inactive)
Date: 11 Apr 08 - 09:23 AM

Sorry, couldn't resist. I googled "snails' bottoms". With apologies to any Lewes residents reading.

From small-life.co.uk, a website for fanciers of stick insects and other smaller 'pets':

MYTH EXPLODED

MYTH: "Don't keep snails because of the risk of meningitis"

Wrong! It is safe to keep snails as pets and in school. The CLEAPSS organisation (concerned with science in schools) agrees and also dispels this myth on their website. The meningitis claim was silly research, based on the consequence of people licking snails' bottoms; this is clearly absurd because no sane person would do this.

From a blog about Pangasinan cuisine:

"When they are ready to cook, the snails' bottoms are patted down
with a heavy flat sandok (wooden spatula for serving rice) until
hey break."

Apparently the snail has both an anus and an excretory pore as shown here: Where do snails keep their bottoms?

Subject: RE: Folklore: GEFF and Proud of it
From: Banjiman
Date: 11 Apr 08 - 09:28 AM

Nigel,

You are a sad, sad man........very funny though. Good to see you back as well.

Brian, really sorry I started this! I'll be more careful with the questions I ask in future.

Paul

Subject: RE: Folklore: GEFF and Proud of it
From: TheSnail
Date: 11 Apr 08 - 09:43 AM

No problems with anything you've said Paul and even if I did, you are one of the people who are actually doing something to promote folk music rather than sitting at home whingeing.

Bryan

Subject: RE: Folklore: GEFF and Proud of it
From: Jack Blandiver
Date: 11 Apr 08 - 10:35 AM

And if further evidence were needed, Youtube is ever dependable!

'My Snail Takes a Shit'

Subject: RE: Folklore: GEFF and Proud of it
From: Banjiman
Date: 11 Apr 08 - 10:39 AM

Sedayne.....and your just sick!!

See you next month.

Nice one.

Paul

Subject: RE: Folklore: GEFF and Proud of it
From: Dave Earl
Date: 11 Apr 08 - 10:42 AM

I have just remembered something that Diane told me about in another thread some time ago. I think it is occasions such as this that cause Diane to come out so strongly against Folk Clubs.

I can,t recall which thread it was but it may have been one of the Sidmouth debates following the withdrawal of the Mrs. Casey organisation.

As I recall Diane had seen one of the younger popular bands working with "Trad" material at a concert or festival.The concert I understand was excellent and subsequently some members of said band were booked to appear at a club" Diane was able to get to.

The "club" night turned out to be a great disappintment because of what I believe was a poorly organised club and a elow expectation performance from the artists.

To compound the problem I recall D saying she had taken a friend who was thoroughly disappointed and said " Wouldn't be seen dead" in such a place again.

If I'm mis-remembereing and it was someone else who said it I aplogise but it still seems to be the sort of thing that Diane is on about.

Yes it would have been whichever club it was showing the worse side of itself and they should not expect to have any sort of ongoing success if all their nights are to be of such a poor standard.

No the base from which we down in Sussex are coming from is that the club scene should and can be lot better than the very unhappy night mentioned above and we think we are and strive to be even better.

Dave

Subject: RE: Folklore: GEFF and Proud of it
From: Jack Blandiver
Date: 11 Apr 08 - 10:57 AM

Where else but in a folk club could I get up and sing the Goffin / King classic Up on the Roof shoehorned with no apparent logic into the middle of The Copper's Innocent Hare (as I did last night at Fleetwood) and get applauded for it, however so politely?

This isn't a rhetorical question by the way, I really need to know because I'm not sure if I'd get away with it a second time...

But, when this old world really starts getting me down, I just take a look at the old Thirsty Monkey and I'm smiling again...

Subject: RE: Folklore: GEFF and Proud of it
From: Banjiman
Date: 11 Apr 08 - 11:02 AM

Like I say.....really sick!

Subject: RE: Folklore: GEFF and Proud of it
From: GUEST,John from Kemsing
Date: 11 Apr 08 - 11:09 AM

Snail, you are so right. We run our "Sing and Play" evenings and we break even most all the time but sometimes it costs us money(subsidising, travel, hosting, advertising,etc.) but we happily regard it as paying for our indulgence of enjoying a variety of good, live music throughout the year; in exactly the same way a member of a tennis or golf club does not expect to make a profit .
                                                       John

Subject: RE: Folklore: GEFF and Proud of it
From: GUEST,Ewan Spawned a Monster
Date: 11 Apr 08 - 11:24 AM

Sorry to move away from the fascinating discuss of your bottom, but Snail, you shouldn't be so quick to assume that those who don't subscribe to your viewpoint are "doing (nothing) to promote folk music (and) sitting at home whingeing" - unless of course you know them and know what they're doing or not doing. They may have all sorts they are working on but are simply not at a stage to discuss them on a public forum yet. Like I said earlier, there is more than one way to skin a cat and there might be some heavy duty cat skinning going on behind the scenes.

Sorry to be so gnomic about this - I'm sworn to secrecy.

Subject: RE: Folklore: GEFF and Proud of it
From: Banjiman
Date: 11 Apr 08 - 11:29 AM

Ewan,

Don't mention cat skinning, Sedayne is bound to find a video......

Subject: RE: Folklore: GEFF and Proud of it
From: TheSnail
Date: 11 Apr 08 - 11:40 AM

GUEST,Ewan Spawned a Monster - PM

you shouldn't be so quick to assume that those who don't subscribe to your viewpoint are "doing (nothing) to promote folk music (and) sitting at home whingeing"

They are free to tell me I am wrong and have been challenged to do so.

You seem to be happy to make unsupported statements. Would you care to respond to my post of 11 Apr 08 - 06:00 AM?

Subject: RE: Folklore: GEFF and Proud of it
From: Rasener
Date: 11 Apr 08 - 11:52 AM

or skinny dipping

Subject: RE: Folklore: GEFF and Proud of it
From: henryclem
Date: 11 Apr 08 - 12:07 PM

There seems to be an assumption that Folk Clubs close down purely because they no longer fulfil a need - they don't satisfy or inspire, they fail to attract or retain audience or supporters. Things are never that simple. A change of landlord anyone? One of the best attended, best publicised of clubs in our area closed last year so the new owners could squeeze a few more restaurant tables into their village pub. This was a club which attracted a lot of people from the immediate vicinity and who had not previously been habitues of the folk scene.

You can blame the economics, perhaps - young people tend to spend more and if they are not attracted to the club (or session) then the bar takings from an ostensibly successful gathering (in terms of numbers) can look pretty disappointing to someone wanting to maximise their investment.

And it is true of most clubs I go to that the overwhelming majority of regular attenders are older - so it's 1 drink each half of the evening. The generational thing is unfortunate, not deliberate - I often take my son and some of his friends along and they are amazed at the amount of music they hear, and its quality. They'll buy the CDs, and even go to concerts, but are very unlikely to come along again unless it's with me. Yet they get just as much out of a Singers' Night as they do from a Guest one, so the oft repeated contention that younger people respond more to a few negative moments than to a lot of positive ones may well do them a disservice. It's almost as if they feel they have to be invited, because it is someone else's club ... however enjoyable they find the music.

As for quality thresholds for guest nights, I am sure most hosts are well aware of the qualities of their regulars and the appropriateness of inviting them to perform. Floor spots (around here at least) are usually one song or tune, maybe 2 for duos/groups, and there are limited opportunities on a guest night anyway. Most professional artists stay and listen to the floor spots; in my experience this encourages better performance (and better preparation beforehand). This is still a sharing thing, too, because on the one had it offers encouragement, advice, and endorsement, and on the other it can provide new songs/tunes or interesting approaches to old ones.

Biggest problem, as far as I see it, is that the only way to get a younger audience into the folk clubs is to introduce an upper age limit ... we'll all have to go somewhere else .

Henry

Subject: RE: Folklore: GEFF and Proud of it
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 11 Apr 08 - 04:36 PM

you are one of the people who are actually doing something to promote folk music rather than sitting at home whingeing

Don't you dare accuse all who don't fit with your Utopian view of folk clubs as people who sit at home whingeing. I have been helping to run Swinton Folk Club for as long as it has been going, nearly 30 years, as a resident singer, doorman, treasurer and general dogsbody. For 25 of those years I have also run an annual festival. In my time I have booked people like Martin Carthy, the Corries and the Oyster Band. Btw - We sold 75 tickets for Martin and fitted them all in a 50 seat room. It was tough and very sweaty but Martin was a good friend of the club and we wanted to make sure he went away with a bonus!

But lets not name drop either. Have you ever arranged a day of traditional entertainment for a school of young people with severe disabilites? Have you ever stood in the open hold of a redundant trawler on Salford Quays in the pissing rain, singing shanties to an audience of three men and a dog to support your local councils effort to promote folk music? Do you arrange concerts and ceilidhs when you know that if there is a shortfall you make up the difference out of your own pocket?

But, again,I don't want any thanks or glory. Never have, never will. And from what little I know of the other people you are slagging off they are pretty much of the same ilk as me. Believe it or not we do know what are talking about. We have paid our dues and are entitled to our opinions as long as we continue to support live music. When we stop living in the real world and start to believe that everything in the garden is roses it will then be time to hang up our gloves.

Now, please, will you just stop with the insults, stop harping on about how good Lewes is and just accept that the 'folk world' is not all banks of primroses and punch bowls? There are flaws, there always have been, there always will be and sticking your head in the sand is not the best way to make them go away.

Cheers

Dave

Subject: RE: Folklore: GEFF and Proud of it
From: TheSnail
Date: 11 Apr 08 - 07:08 PM

No problems with anything you've said Dave and even if I did, you are one of the people who are actually doing something to promote folk music rather than sitting at home whingeing.

Bryan

P.S.

What have I said about Lewes on this thread? What do Nigel Spencer, Captain Ginger (aka Ewan thingy) and Diane Easby actually do apart from slagging off ALL folk clubs? It's you they are attacking as well as me.

Subject: RE: Folklore: GEFF and Proud of it
From: Gervase
Date: 11 Apr 08 - 07:10 PM

Er, at the risk of intruding on private grief, well said Dave Polshaw. From the point of view of one who used to go to a lot of clubs, but who now lives in the wilds of West Wales, my sentiments are with Diane, Dave P, Ewan thingumibob and Captain Ginger. The club scene overall is a curate's egg which, I'm sure, appeals to the converted hugely. But as a draw for the unconverted - no thanks! There are too many 'shaky eggs', 'read it from the book and still panic' and otherwise odd people for my liking, and it's not something to which I'd wish to introduce a neophyte.
OK, From my own experience, there's a handful of great clubs - Sharp's, Maidenhead and Herga to name but a few - but there are lot of truly bloody awful ones for whom the grim reaper can't come soon enough. I've sat through some dire evenings of naff 'performance poetry' and people trying and failing to do Steeleye covers and thinking that just because they sing through their nose it's folk to realise that the club scene across the UK is far from well.
I've not been to Lewes, and I'm sure (knowing Dave Earl and having huge respect for his judgement) that the Snail's club is excellent, but he does seem to be fixated on his own turf. There's a big wide world beyond Sussex, and there are some dire things going on out there. The people on this thread who are being accused of pissing on the parade are actually speaking a few home truths. Some of you may be lucky enough to live within staggering distance of a superb club, but many of us don't.
So stop squabbling and bickering and at least accept that there is a real need for a good, long think about the state of trad music in the UK.

Subject: RE: Folklore: GEFF and Proud of it
From: GUEST,Jon
Date: 11 Apr 08 - 07:27 PM

The club scene overall is a curate's egg which, I'm sure, appeals to the converted hugely

So it serves a useful purpose then.

But as a draw for the unconverted - no thanks!

Come up with something that does then. Start, I don't know, maybe a concert club to run alongside your local "GEFF" site and maybe have some co-operation between the two.

Subject: RE: Folklore: GEFF and Proud of it
From: Banjiman
Date: 12 Apr 08 - 05:45 AM

Gervase.....you make some useful observations.......but are YOU doing anything to change things?

....it's really easy to sit and type negative comments about the stereotypical "Folk Club" (like most stereotypes there is some truth in it but it is not the whole story). It's much more impressive to use that energy to create something that you can be proud of and you think will appeal to others, especially the unconverted.

Please read this as a friendly challenge...but a challenge none the less.

Paul

Subject: RE: Folklore: GEFF and Proud of it
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 12 Apr 08 - 06:03 AM

We are ALL doing something to promote folk music, Bryan. You are doing it one way, other people would rather promote concerts and festivals. There is plenty of room for good clubs and there are plenty of good clubs about but there are are aslo plenty of poor performers who believe they are promoting folk as well. They are not. They are deluded to believe that reading obscure self penned dirges out of books and singing through their noses is entertaining for other people. But don't get me wrong, these people are entitled to perform somewhere. I have no right to stop them. All I am saying, and I think that others may be in agreement, is that they should be kept away from the general public.

Cheers

Dave

Subject: RE: Folklore: GEFF and Proud of it
From: GUEST,Jon
Date: 12 Apr 08 - 06:29 AM

All I am saying, and I think that others may be in agreement, is that they should be kept away from the general public.

I disagree. What you do in your club is your affair. If another club wishes to allow such singers they have every right to do so.

---
I do have my own dislikes with smaller (which interest me more than concerts one btw) clubs but none come down to the performing ability of the individual.

1. I can get irritated by say can't be bothered to use guitar tuner, haven't worked out what key I do the song in, etc. This isn't lack of skill, it's just sloppiness.

2. I sometimes feel clubs can degenerate into "mutual admiration societies" where a core are only really interested in themselves (oh and the guest if they happen to have one). The standard of this core could be excellent for all I care. It's the feeling I can get, nothing to do with what I hear.

3. Personally, rather than filter out, I wish MCs would balance what they have. Three sets of (I suppose I wouldn't know) three well done Dyan/contemporary American style performers is likely to be far more painful to me than even a slightly out of tune Wild Rover.

Subject: RE: Folklore: GEFF and Proud of it
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 12 Apr 08 - 06:53 AM

Hi Jon - I can see what you mean when you disagree but maybe I didn't quite put across what I meant. I do not include what goes on at the folk club in general, particularly on a singers night, as 'the general public'. In my experience very few members of the general public come into folk clubs. So when I say keep them away from the general public I mean they shouldn't perform where a number of 'newbies to the folk scene', for want of a better term, would be put off. It makes sense - You don't let someone drive a bus until they are fully competant. Why let them drive your concert? :-)

I said before, and snail laughed at me for doing so, that when someone I do not know comes into our club for the first time I ask if they have been to a folk club before. If they say no and it is a singers night I will explain what goes on. I am more than happy to say that not everything they hear may be to their taste but if they persist they will find something they like. You, for instance, may not like one of our regulars who does primarily contemporary music but the person sat next to you could well dislike my rendition of The Oyster Girl. It's what makes life interesting. I don't think either of you would like someone who did nothing but forget words and sing out of tune. But at least you would both know what to expect. You because you are a folk club regular and the person next to you because I had set their expectations correctly.

To say that everything in the folk scene is rosy is wrong. To say it is all crap is wrong. There is good and bad in it just like there is good and bad in everything. All that people, including myself, are trying to do is get that across but because we are doing so we are, apparantly, just a bunch whingers who do nothing to help. Beats me.

Cheers

Dave

Subject: RE: Folklore: GEFF and Proud of it
From: GUEST,Jon
Date: 12 Apr 08 - 07:01 AM

I think we might agree after all, Dave. Thanks for that last post.

I'll never be running a folk club and even if I did it would be at the informal open end of things as that's where I enjoy folk most...

But if I was running a more concert style club, charging a reasonble fee on the door etc. it's unlikely that I, personally, would not wish to have some policy regarding floorsingers.

Subject: RE: Folklore: GEFF and Proud of it
From: GUEST,Tom Bliss
Date: 12 Apr 08 - 07:02 AM

This is for Paul.

Hi mate,

Like you I'd want to encourage people to start up clubs, but I'm not sure it's really fair just to say 'if you don't like it start your own.' The 'market' for folk is quite small, and many people already have an incumbent club in their patch. Starting another may just not be a sensible option - plus it's something not all have the gift or time for. It may be better to try to turn round a struggling club (point taken Henry about reasons for closure - though many manage to overcome those challenges on a scarily regular basis) than start from cold. There is an old saw in businesses; 'if you like what we do tell others, if you don't, tell us.' At the end of the day a club's 'success' (by whatever criteria you choose) comes down to the organisers, and above all the MC. It's all about the way a club is promoted (putting the right label on the tin and making sure people read it), how standards are managed (tact, encouragement, growth) and the welcome/charisma on the night. Last night I was in Robin Hood's Bay. The core 'folkies' are few - most of the audience are people who are still eating when the club starts and can't escape! But Jim does a fantastic job explaining what's happening and why - and they all stayed, sang, clapped and a good few bought CDs. On lady even plucked up courage to join in and sang Killing Me Softly - to thunderous applause. (She'll come again, she said).

KYFC is a really excellent example of a new start-up. Original thinking married to some time-tested ideas in a winning formula. But not everyone has the benefits of your location, personality and team.

I'm proud to count a large number of club organisers as close friends and I have massive respect for what they/you do. But I've sat long into the night with some, discussing the problem which has caused the rancour in this thread. It's really hard to balance the conflicting demands of this participation/performance equation, and though most manage it really well, a few don't (some don't think there's a problem, some do but have no idea what to do about it).

The solution, for me, is a gently pro-active approach to growth. There are ways that weaker performers (I believe we're talking about visitors rather than guests here) can be brought on. And there are things that can be done to bring newbies into the fold, even if their initial reaction is very negative.

I've put some of them onto the folkWISE tips page. What I'd prefer to see in this thread is ideas on how to solve the issue within the existing framework. I'm happy to add them to my page (I've added a few since this thread started). Then new starters can also benefit from that wisdom.

Subject: RE: Folklore: GEFF and Proud of it
From: Banjiman
Date: 12 Apr 08 - 07:28 AM

Tom,

Thanks for your (as usual) useful contribution.

I am not suggesting that everyone should start a folk club....but I am suggesting that if you are not happy with the status quo you should do something pro-active to change it, or at a minimum provide constructive feedback in an appropriate way not just knock others' efforts.

There have been a number of responses on this thread and I have had a number of PMs from people who felt they should respond to this challenge.....and what a wide and wonderful set of ideas and projects there are out there (some in the conception stage, some coming to fruition). These go way beyond the folk club format, from new approaches to concert promotion to recording projects (and I've found some new, unexpected collaborators....watch this space!). I'm hugely reassured by this and the positivity these projects are generating....

What annoyed me (only slightly....life's too short!)about this thread were people who were knocking the hard work of others without presenting positive alternatives....this is just a waste of energy. Constructive feedback is fine....non-specific negativity is not.

Tom, to answer your point on the market, I don't agree that the market for folk music has to be small....the folk club attendee market maybe small (at present) but this (as you have pointed out)is but a subsection of a wider market. Presented properly (and amended where required) there is no reason why the folk club sector cannot be grown, as with any other market...you just need to get the product and its marketing right....

I agree about The Dolphin, they very positively overcome some unique challenges .

Paul

Subject: RE: Folklore: GEFF and Proud of it
From: GUEST,Tom Bliss
Date: 12 Apr 08 - 08:42 AM

Yes indeed, I should have said the 'market*' is _currently_ quite small.

The most important thing for a new club is to have reasonable success from the off, from which they can grow, otherwise they may fizzle out very quickly. But if that success comes at the expense of another club it can generate other problems.

I think we'd all like to grow the folk 'market' as a whole - even if some baulk at the application of that word. I do use business terms about the folk world deliberately, by the way. The reason is that the 'traditional' engine of the 'activity' element of folk has fallen behind somewhat in England - for reasons we all understand. It would be lovely if we could just snap our fingers and go back to the 60s, and let things happen as we'd all prefer, with the music and the people being enough.

But in the 21st century, sadly, it is not.

However, other community-based, artistic activities have reversed decline by borrowing techniques from the commercial world - and I absolutely know it can work for folk... As long as people do not react to the very idea in a quasi-religious manner, and send out the suicide bombers.