GEFF and Proud of it

Subject: RE: Folklore: GEFF and Proud of it
From: Leadfingers
Date: 12 Apr 08 - 09:35 AM

One thing that 'Folk Clubs' in general have in their favour is the one thing that can count very heavily against them , and that is the overall politeness of 'Folkies' . If some one gets up on their back legs , wether as a floor singer on a Guest night , or at a Singers night and is Diabolically BAD , No one will say anything , just not be QUITE so enthusuastic in the level of applause .
I accept that it is NOT easy to tell someone that they need to do what ever is required to improve , but in my experience , it VERY seldom happens ! And when the same person , after TEN years (No Names ,No packdrill) is still TOTALLY surprised that at a singearound THEY are next after the person alongside then has sung .
No WONDER new attendees at some clubs are not so keen to come back !

Subject: RE: Folklore: GEFF and Proud of it
From: Banjiman
Date: 12 Apr 08 - 09:36 AM

Tom,

I have no problem with the use of "business" terms....but I'm sure others will. I think the usefulness of this terminology is that it allows precise communication.

I'm interested in one point you make....how do you think the location of KFFC (KYFC.....hmmmm, WHAT are you trying to say, KY, I think of a lubricant?) is a benefit? It seems to me that it is a problem to overcome, we are miles away from anywhere with no public transport?

As I have no memories of 60's folk clubs, I don't carry with me any expectation of what a club SHOULD be like....I just think I'm vaguely normal (some would dispute this) and have sought to create something I enjoy, assuming it will appeal to others as well....doing OK so far, but time will tell.....hopefully we can adapt and improve as required.

Paul

Subject: RE: Folklore: GEFF and Proud of it
From: GUEST,Tom Bliss
Date: 12 Apr 08 - 10:03 AM

Sorry must have been a freudian kiss

Well, I was thinking maybe your isolation works to your advantage. First it's made you work hard at promotion because you had to (and you've been damn good at it too). Second it's a lovely village to venture out to, so people are more likely to make the trek (folkies like going somewhere nice), third you have a great pub which offers the best of olde worlde folke charme AND a smart almost 'arts centre' room in the same venue, fourth you have Phil who's up for it, sells good beer stays for the singaround, provides accom and serves breakfast on a waggon hubcap! I'd call that a top location.

Not so easy to find all that in Leeds.

Subject: RE: Folklore: GEFF and Proud of it
From: Banjiman
Date: 12 Apr 08 - 10:14 AM

Tom,

OK....point taken! Phil and the pub are great. We don't get much passing trade though!

Paul

Subject: RE: Folklore: GEFF and Proud of it
From: GUEST,Tom Bliss
Date: 12 Apr 08 - 10:37 AM

and in a way the lack of passing trade almost works to your advantage too. You are targeting specific 'consumers', you know who they are, you can present them with a very specific 'offer.' In a city pub you never quite know who's going to walk in (or stagger as was often the case at one I know) and you need to try to cater for a wide range of potential tastes.

(Oh and re the business thing - before someone jumps down by throat - I'm well aware that many/most club organisers think in these terms, (quite a few run 'normal' businesses, after all), in fact that's where I got it all from anyway.

Subject: RE: Folklore: GEFF and Proud of it
From: Silas
Date: 13 Apr 08 - 03:52 AM

Just been listening to the wonderful(imho) Brazil Family CD set. Wonder if Diane would consider them to be 'GEFF'?

Subject: RE: Folklore: GEFF and Proud of it
From: The Borchester Echo
Date: 13 Apr 08 - 04:17 AM

The Brazil Family: Down By The Riverside is a Musical Traditions 3-CD set, done because Rod Stradling considered their work Good Enough. And as Keith Chandler writes in the notes:

"This really is the final harvest of the old tradition.  And this really is the most important commercial release showcasing the English tradition to have appeared in many a long day". 

This does not, however, deter the GEFFs hanging about beer tents from murdering the material collected therein.

What a peculiar question. It is utterly unrelated to the topic which appears to have been launched in a pathetic attempt to justify the existence of those who can't be arsed to present traditional material in the best possible light.

Subject: RE: Folklore: GEFF and Proud of it
From: GUEST,glueman
Date: 13 Apr 08 - 05:10 AM

Wot Nigel Spencer said.

The opinions of the sensitive few on here insist we still live an agrarian or early industrial society that has never heard a radio playing swing, a television showing Mr Presley or an iPod loaded with pomp rock. The Eden of pure folk is comical, academically suspect, clubbishly thin skinned, impossibly rarified, outrageously snobbish. The beauty of the instrumentation and subject matter appeal to some of us, not some middle class historian dribbling into his Bladder's Old Twaddle and getting teary eyed at his own perfection.

Subject: RE: Folklore: GEFF and Proud of it
From: GUEST,Jon
Date: 13 Apr 08 - 05:29 AM

The opinions of the sensitive few on here insist we still live an agrarian or early industrial society that has never heard a radio playing swing, a television showing Mr Presley or an iPod loaded with pomp rock.

The GEEF "arguments" have nothing to do with whether a piece is new or old (although reading froots, it seems at least on seems to thing it's releated to whether or not a piece is a museum piece, etc. It's about the standard of performing that work.

While many find relevance in older songs and/or enjoy them as good songs, I can't think of any who believe we still live in that era.

Subject: RE: Folklore: GEFF and Proud of it
From: TheSnail
Date: 13 Apr 08 - 05:41 AM

Dave Polshaw

I said before, and snail laughed at me for doing so,

Really? I don't recall doing so. You seem to be naking a habit of attributing other people's words to me and responding to what you imagine I have said rather than anything I actuall said.

To say that everything in the folk scene is rosy is wrong.

Nobody is.

To say it is all crap is wrong.

Several people are.

Subject: RE: Folklore: GEFF and Proud of it
From: TheSnail
Date: 13 Apr 08 - 05:43 AM

Dyslexia lures, KO.

Subject: RE: Folklore: GEFF and Proud of it
From: GUEST,glueman
Date: 13 Apr 08 - 07:04 AM

"The GEEF "arguments" have nothing to do with whether a piece is new or old"

With respect that wasn't my point. A very few posters suggest, nay demand, that 'folk' should be the registered trademark of a homely kind of quasi-historical music or story telling and that it is necessarily more authentic and therefore somehow purer than other forms.

I'm saying that doesn't stand up as an argument. It might be galling that 'RnB' used to imply rhythm and blues before the 1990s, itself a compound of earlier forms. Times change, things move on. Music will stand up for itself or it won't, survive or whither. Purists saying 'it's authentic' didn't stop folk almost dying out first time around and not just against a trans-atlantic hegemony. Nostalgia is a form of romanticism, something I'm all for as it happens, but it makes a lousy platform for deductive logic.

If people want to have a singaround at their local club behind closed doors in front of consenting adults it's nobody's business but their's. If they mark it for public consumption the public will have their say. As Nigel suggests, the disapproval surrounding acts like Rusby or the Winterset can be had for any musical genre, proprietorial snorts in the face of upstarts and ingenues. I've always thought paying dues were a lousy substitute for inspiration, fun and a dose of talent.

Subject: RE: Folklore: GEFF and Proud of it
From: Giant Folk Eyeball (inactive)
Date: 13 Apr 08 - 07:11 AM

I really don't want to fan the flames any further and I think I've generally said enough for one lifetime (and subsequently been quoted completely out of context enough for one lifetime...).

I'd just like you all to click the link to this thread Scan Tester Workshop at the Lewes Arms and carefully read Valmai Goodyear's post.

This sort of event is an excellent and admirable positive example of the sort of essential work that could be done by folk clubs to promote traditional music. It needs to be trumpeted from the rooftops as a shining example of how things maybe ought to be, not just in Lewes, but in every town and city across the country.

No wonder Bryan the Snail has such a postive view of folk clubs. He has this on his doorstep (and no doubt was involved in making it happen). I would feel exactly the same as he does, I'm sure, if I had anything like this anywhere in driving distance. I would probably also have the same level of annoyance he does at those whose put forward a contrary viewpoint.

Is anything like this happening in or around Manchester, I wonder? Whenever I look at the local listings I never see ANY evidence of this sort of thing. Maybe other Mancunian Mudcat users could point out to me that I'm mistaken, that it's staring me in the face or that I'm just looking in all the wrong places. I hope so. I doubt it, but I hope so.

(The cheap and easy answer is that if I don't like it, I should do something about it. Point taken, but... it's actually the answer to everything and is also a useful rhetorical device to stifle potentially healthy and in my opinion, much needed debate).

Can anyone please tell me I've got it completely wrong and what Bryan and Co are doing is actually the norm on the folk club scene? Have I just been incredibly and consistently unlucky?

I wonder whether the data Tom and Folk Wise are collecting could be the basis of a state of the nation report with good practice case studies? Or should we just accept things are as they are and that whatever that means at any given time is always 'good enough'? Can we learn, adapt and change and is it desirable or necessary to do so? Do organisers of successful, healthy clubs need to publish their secrets for success on the internet? Do people even agree what a healthy folk club is?

Would a national data base of folk clubs with a brief description of their modus operandi and their main focus and function be a good thing? Or should we wait for all but (few?) good ones to wither on the vine as the core membership leaves for the great folk club in the sky?

Beyond the rather polarised positions we take in order to more forcefully make our points, is such a debate a good thing? Is not having the debate about not airing dirty linen in public, a reflection that all is fine and dandy, sweeping the mess under the carpet or a side effect of complancy? Or none of the above?

And more importantly, am I going to really, really regret posting this as the 'shut the f*** up, you don't even like folk clubs' comments start?

In case there is any misapprehension, I ask these questions with all due respect, not least because I probably would go to a folk club if I could find one I liked reasonably near to home.



Cheers

Nigel (putting on body armour and tin hat)

PS I probably didn't make this clear in my earlier posts, but I absolutely love being in a small room populated by people of varying abilities and skills singing to each other for the sheer joy of it and even though I'm not a singer myself, try to get along to my local singaround when I can. However, I also think such private/semi private gatherings aren't really relevant to this discussion.

Subject: RE: Folklore: GEFF and Proud of it
From: GUEST,Jon
Date: 13 Apr 08 - 07:23 AM

A very few posters suggest, nay demand, that 'folk' should be the registered trademark of a homely kind of quasi-historical music or story telling and that it is necessarily more authentic and therefore somehow purer than other forms.

Where do you get this from and how does it relate to "GEFF".

As Nigel suggests, the disapproval surrounding acts like Rusby...

But what Nigel seemed to me to be suggesting was those that believe in "GEFF" were those that made negative comments about artists like KR, "hated" people doing music degrees, etc. and one followed the other.

The reality is some who do not agree at all with GEFF will make negative comments about certain artists, some that do go with GEFF will speak positively of or defend the same artists, etc.

Subject: RE: Folklore: GEFF and Proud of it
From: GUEST,Jon
Date: 13 Apr 08 - 07:37 AM

Can anyone please tell me I've got it completely wrong and what Bryan and Co are doing is actually the norm on the folk club scene? Have I just been incredibly and consistently unlucky?

It's not something I came across when I lived in N Wales nor something I've heard of now I live near Cromer, Norfolk (and usually going to Norwich for music).

When it comes to looking for folk music (other than concerts), I think it can be useful to go to a couple of events you do find and asking around. I found an Irish session (the thing I hoped to find most of all) through going to the Norwich Folk Club. From that session, I learned of another Irish one, and then a couple of others, and now I know a number of people, could probably find much more to do than I know of if I wanted to,

Subject: RE: Folklore: GEFF and Proud of it
From: Banjiman
Date: 13 Apr 08 - 07:37 AM

"(The cheap and easy answer is that if I don't like it, I should do something about it. Point taken, but... it's actually the answer to everything and is also a useful rhetorical device to stifle potentially healthy and in my opinion, much needed debate)."

Nigel, as always you have made some points that need making, however I have to disagree (in a friendly, constructive way) with your analysis of the "get off your backside and do something" comments I have made.

From my point of view this was not meant to stifle debate but to make people stop and think if there is anything they can do to improve the current state of trad/ folk music. I have to repeat I'm amazed and energised by some of the responses that I have had to this.....and let me make it clear (again), I'm not suggesting that everyone should start a folk club.

The responses have pushed me out of MY comfort zone....we will be trying some new approaches to presenting trad/ folk music in North Yorks very soon.....as well as continuing with the folk club (we had 40 in for a "blues" night last night, attracted a different crowd and many of them are promising to come back for our regular "folk" nights....not Arena sized crowds but enough to make the club viable).

Paul

Subject: RE: Folklore: GEFF and Proud of it
From: GUEST,Jon
Date: 13 Apr 08 - 07:39 AM

It's not something I came across

The workshops that is.

Subject: RE: Folklore: GEFF and Proud of it
From: Giant Folk Eyeball (inactive)
Date: 13 Apr 08 - 07:54 AM

Eek, Paul... that comment about stifling debate wasn't aimed at you (it wasn't actually aimed at anyone, just a general observation to hopefully help move things along).

Cheers

Nigel

Subject: RE: Folklore: GEFF and Proud of it
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 13 Apr 08 - 07:57 AM

Bryan has pointed out that I have picked up someone elses words as his. This caused me to believe that when he commented on people doing nothing to help folk music he was refering to me. He was not. He was refering to others on the thread and I will leave it to you to work out who. Sorry for the misunderstanding Bryan.

As to your latest accusation of me attributing other peoples words to you. Well, maybe I did. Without trawling back through countless threads similar to this, and to be honest I have neither the time or inclination to do so, I cannot furnish the 'proof' that you are so fond of asking for. My recollection is that when I mentioned that there were the odd poor performers at Swinton and that I did warn people who new to the club of that fact you made a sarcastic comment. Something along the lines of me doing a good job promoting my folk club?

Oh, and talking of my folk club, I am not one of the 1000 folk club committee members. I run a folk club with two other people. I organise and promote sucessful concerts and ceilidhs on my own. I am not and never will be a committee member.

Cheers

Dave

Subject: RE: Folklore: GEFF and Proud of it
From: GUEST,Richard Bridge
Date: 13 Apr 08 - 08:17 AM

Two issues are being interconnected here and they don't need to be.

We don't need another "What is folk" debate. There is only one answer and it's only the terminally unthinking who say otherwise - and ironically it sort of mirrors the "GEFF" debate. The unthinkng say that anything can be called folk.

Then there is the "Are you good enough" debate. Again, there is only one point at the core. Should the great and the good have the right to say who can sing, or not? It's pretty much on a par with the eugenics arguments, when the great of their times and places decided whou shouldbe permitted to breed and who should be sterilised.

It is ironic that pretty much the same people who say that anything can be called "folk" (or, in one case, a person who says that nothing shouldbe called "folk") argue that those who are not good enough should not be alowed to do it (whatever it is).

No-one is suggesting that today's western society is largely agrarian, nor, even in physical production of anything. Only the wilfully ignorant could suggest that that was the issue.

Subject: RE: Folklore: GEFF and Proud of it
From: Dave Earl
Date: 13 Apr 08 - 08:39 AM

Er what about this Brazil family CD set?

Are we saying it a proper "Tradarts" collection of music/song ( I haven't heard it)or is it only seen as GEFF?

Diane says that the nice Mr Stradling thinks it's "good enough" but I am not sure in which context she is talking.

Do you mean ONLY GEFF or that it is "good enough" to be called "folk"   ( I know D doesn't us that word but it does have some sort of meaning to some of us.

Enquiring minds (or at least this one) would like to know.

Dave

Subject: RE: Folklore: GEFF and Proud of it
From: Banjiman
Date: 13 Apr 08 - 08:47 AM

"There is only one answer and it's only the terminally unthinking who say otherwise - and ironically it sort of mirrors the "GEFF" debate. The unthinkng say that anything can be called folk."

Richard, please try and be a bit more constructive rather than just throwing around unneeded insults........ you seem to be suggesting that anyone who disagrees with your views is unthinking.

Do you really believe that is true?

Paul

Subject: RE: Folklore: GEFF and Proud of it
From: TheSnail
Date: 13 Apr 08 - 10:09 AM

Thanks Dave. I never thought there were any major disagreements between us so your post on Friday evening came as a bit of a shock.

Something along the lines of me doing a good job promoting my folk club?

I think that was intended as a bit of gentle leg pulling rather than sarcasm. If I caused offence, I do apologise. It just struck me that "Come to the Swinton Folk Club and we'll guarantee you something terrible" seemed to lack something as an advertising slogan.

I am not one of the 1000 folk club committee members. I run a folk club with two other people.

OK, Delete "committee members" and replace with "people who run folk clubs" throughout. We consider that we've got a committee (we have meetings and minutes and things like that).

Subject: RE: Folklore: GEFF and Proud of it
From: Brian Peters
Date: 13 Apr 08 - 10:53 AM

I must say that a lot of the comment in the thread above is extremely familiar to one who's been involved with the folk scene for nearly thirty years, and taken part more than once in the hoary old 'Floor Singer Debate'. Why, my credentials even include having an article several years ago in fRoots magazine, on the subject of the folk clubs, described by the editor as "a masterly piece of fence-sitting". But sometimes the fence is the only place for the unprejudiced to sit. I've heard the most awful performances from floor singers at clubs, in more than one case resulting in paid-up punters leaving before hearing what I was being paid to offer them. On the other hand, within the last few months, I've played a number of well-attended clubs which by no means fit the description of moribund anachronisms, and heard performances from the floor ranging from good to excellent.

Tom Bliss made several good points above, one of which was that this music is not always easy (nor should it be) and is an aquired taste for many. I've certainly had the experience of taking 'outsiders' into clubs and having them curl up with embarrassment or froth at the mouth with rage, that they should have been subjected to "f***ing amateurs" standing up and contributing to the evening in a way they didn't approve of or understand. In at least one case, the outsider's anger was occassioned by floor performers who I thought had been rather good. So was he - a 'normal' member of the public - correct, and me - a long-time habituee of folk clubs - hopelessly deluded?

'Ewan' suggests that the problem would just go away if free singarounds or sessions were allowed to continue allowing all comers to contribute, while events commanding an entrance fee should (if I read him right) become, effectively, concerts presenting professionals only. But although that would cut out the "I didn't pay to hear this crap" syndrome, it would also have the effect of divorcing the best performers of this music from the kind of context in which the music evolved and for which IMO it's still best suited: the small-ish, semi-informal, acoustic setting. Without wishing to open the 'What is Folk' box of delights yet again, I'd say that "people making music for themselves" isn't too far off the mark. No-one kids themselves that folk club attenders are farmhands or fishermen, but the club concept is an attempt to retain the community music aspect alongside the desire to hear top-quality performance. Until someone finds a different way of squaring that circle, I'll be more than happy to carry on playing in friendly, buzzing, participatory folk clubs like the ones I've played recently in Lancashire, Suffolk, Kent, Berkshire, County Durham, West Yorkshire and South Wales - not to mention the Lewes Arms, which I'll be visiting again next year.

Oh, and I can't let this pass - "the essence of professionalism is to do what is profitable - and sod integrity" - without mentioning that as far as I'm concerned "the essence of professionalism" is about such things as turning up on time, playing for as long as you've been asked to (no more, no less), remaining sober, giving your best in performance, and being polite to people. Which of those principles is incompatible with integrity I'm not quite sure, but I daresay all of us can think of instances when paid performers haven't lived up to all of them.

Subject: RE: Folklore: GEFF and Proud of it
From: TheSnail
Date: 13 Apr 08 - 10:59 AM

Thanks for the plug Nigel.

Could I just say, for those who complain about me "harping on" about the Lewes Arms, that, apart from a brief response to a question from Banjiman, this is the first I've had to say about it on this thread.

Our workshop series does make us a little different. We are fortunate in being a Saturday night club with the pub room available in the day. The bulk of the credit for organising them, although she will deny it, goes to Valmai.

Otherwise, we are a fairly ordinary club with a set of residents who are at least competent. If any of us, Sandra has star quality but no inclination to persue it.

We have theme nights and singers nights and tune nights and book guests ranging from the local to the (very rarely) international. We have floor spots. All very normal unless I'm missing something.

The only point that's really relevant is that we do not place any restrictions on floor spots. The sole criterion is to want to perform in fact, I would say we see that as part of the purpose of the club. People seem to worry about the effect of floor singers on the audience which rather forgets that floor singers are part of the audience (as are the residents for that matter). The opportunity (time permitting) to do a spot is part of what you get with the price of the ticket.

It works for us.

Subject: RE: Folklore: GEFF and Proud of it
From: Saro
Date: 13 Apr 08 - 11:33 AM

I'm always a bit reluctant to get drawn into this kind of debate, but it does occur to me to wonder if there are ways in which the standards of performance can be raised, bearing in mind the legendary politeness of folk audiences and the absence of anyone who feels confident enough to have a quiet word in someone's ear and say, "look, you really need to spend more time learning your words/ getting your instrument in tune/ working out what key you need to sing in" or whatever. In the past I have known one or two people who have become unofficial mentors and who have had the rare combination of authority, wisdom and charm to say the right words at the right time, but it doesn't happen often.
In the last year I have been involved in running two workshops for Folk South West (both as part of a much larger event) which were more or less about the topic of presenting yourself well as a singer (I'm not enough of an instrumentalist to venture down that path). On both occasions I was a bit surprised at the level of questions that were asked e.g. "How can I work out what note I should start a song", "how often should I sing a song before I do it in public".... It is easy to be scathing about these things if you already know how to do it, but maybe there is scope for some fairly basic "performing skills" workshops as well as all the more advanced stuff. Incidentally, if anyone wants the notes from FSW on "How to do the perfect floorspot" send me a PM!
Right, I'm going to hide under the table now before people start throwing things at me!
Saro

Subject: RE: Folklore: GEFF and Proud of it
From: Brian Peters
Date: 13 Apr 08 - 11:49 AM

Good points, Saro, and I'd be interested to hear what others think of your mentoring idea. Even so, one of my points about 'outsiders' in a folk club is that some people are always going to be uncomfortable with amateur/informal/unaccompanied performers whatever their level of skill, and that there is no need to abolish the folk club to spare those people very occasional embarrassment.

Subject: RE: Folklore: GEFF and Proud of it
From: GUEST, Richard Bridge
Date: 13 Apr 08 - 11:52 AM

We all err. We should all try to think.

If we avoid debating "what is folk" - as I suggested, then there was one piece of stupidity above that I was pointing out (alas directed to "what is folk"). A horse definitioner seemed to think first that 1954 definitioners thought that the only songs that should be sung were folk songs (which is not the case) and second that because there was no agrarian society any longer that meant the definition of folk song was wrong (which is obviously not the case).

What I was trying to point out is that it seems to be much the same people who say that everything is folk who say that not everyone should be allowed to sing it (whatever "it" is). Do you understand now?

As Martin Carthy nearly said, the worst think you can do to traditional songs is not sing them. Much the same is true of contemporary songs, certainly if they are to become folk songs. So people must be free to sing them.   They must be encouraged to sing them. If they are discouraged and sniped at, the songs will not be sung, and we will hasten to the land of the big-screen television.

I must come to your club sometime Snail, it sounds great.

Subject: RE: Folklore: GEFF and Proud of it
From: TheSnail
Date: 13 Apr 08 - 12:07 PM

Richard Bridge

I must come to your club sometime Snail, it sounds great.

You'd be welcome. Can't absolutley guarrantee you a floor spot. No big-screen television, No games machines. Anyone using a mobile phone inside has to buy a round for the whole pub.

Last night (Dearman, Gammon, Harrison) most of the residents (including me) and several potential floorsingers (including a couple we've booked as guests in the past) didn't get on.

Don't come next Saturday for Martin Carthy though; we're sold out.

(Sorry, but if people will give me the opportunity, I can't resist.)

Subject: RE: Folklore: GEFF and Proud of it
From: Banjiman
Date: 13 Apr 08 - 12:28 PM

Richard,

I don't think the balance of opinion on this thread is saying that anyone should be discouraged from singing/playing....anything. In fact the contrary is true.

I do think that the opinion that context is important is receiving a fair degree of support though. i.e. there is a time and place for everyone to have a go but that isn't necessarily in front of a paying audience.

But clubs take different approaches...some do and some don't have floorsingers as part of the main event. I have no problem with this, different strokes etc. As a punter, you takes pays your money and takes your choice.

I personally attend a singaround club most weeks and run a performance club once a month (with a singaround in a separate room before and after the concert). These clubs are about 5 miles apart and 80 or 90% of the regulars from the singaround club attend as audience members (some have had support/ main guest slots) at the concert club. To quote the Snail..."this seems to work for us".

I don't think anyone feels sniped at or discouraged with this set up and lots of songs of different types are sung in lots of different ways by lots of different people.....and most of them regularly take the mickey out of my banjo (you'll be pleased to know)!!!!

If I have still misunderstood what you were saying, please use words of one syllable in the future:)

Paul

Subject: RE: Folklore: GEFF and Proud of it
From: GUEST, Richard Bridge
Date: 13 Apr 08 - 12:43 PM

Well I'm glad to hear you are not a discourager, Paul. But there does seem to be a coterie of countesses who assert: -

1) "Folk" is a dirty word
2) This is because the people who sing it aren't good enough
3) They are not good enough because they are not "professional"
4) As a result they alienate people
5) Drinking from a tankard or being a "folkie" furthers such alienation.

I do not accept that those people are entitled to sit in judgement on me or anyone else.

Subject: RE: Folklore: GEFF and Proud of it
From: GUEST,glueman
Date: 13 Apr 08 - 01:27 PM

1) Folk isn't a dirty word but 1954 definitions do not close debate, neither in any arts or science. Only the wilfully perverse build those walls.
2) No strong feelings either way unless a paying public are invited, then 'folk' has to take its place on the popular cultural duck shoot.
3)There should be a place for people develop without ridicule. That does not mean lack of development is a worthy characteristic in music or human nature. There's a fine line between retarding a cultural tradition and preserving it. I won't take lectures from anyone proffessing certainty either way.
4)Alienation? Or just choice in an eclectic musiverse?
5)Drinking from a tankard, wearing a smock and the use of panchromatic trousers are for those untroubled by the problems of aesthetics. None are hanging offences.

Subject: RE: Folklore: GEFF and Proud of it
From: TheSnail
Date: 13 Apr 08 - 02:20 PM

I'm a bit worried about this obsession with trousers. First it was "swirly trousers" now it's "panchromatic trousers".

Where will it all end?

Subject: RE: Folklore: GEFF and Proud of it
From: GUEST,glueman
Date: 13 Apr 08 - 03:27 PM

"Where will it all end?"

In tweed and fine tailoring with a bit of luck. I view those who get dressed up to 'do' folk with the same distaste as people who go to football matches with painted faces, wear yellow afro wigs at Wimbledon or 'comical' masks at the Oval, that is to say with a mix of pity, alarm and fear for their families.
The vague, unmotivated dress connotations that have attached themselves to 'folk' lead the public to believe the music may also be prone to specious claims on its listeners. Think war re-enactment without the palls of smoke or Trekkies with no Klingons bearing cornish pasties on their forehead. All a bit rum.

Subject: RE: Folklore: GEFF and Proud of it
From: TheSnail
Date: 13 Apr 08 - 04:06 PM

Sounds fascinating. Where does this happen? I buy my jeans at BHS.

Are you sure you're not getting confused with filk?

Subject: RE: Folklore: GEFF and Proud of it
From: GUEST,glueman
Date: 13 Apr 08 - 04:52 PM

Good Lord, that sounds like an opium fuelled dilerium. I'm thinking of simple guides like never wear brown in town and blue and green shouldn't be seen together. Where are Trinny and Suzannah when you need them?

Subject: RE: Folklore: GEFF and Proud of it
From: GUEST, Richard Bridge
Date: 13 Apr 08 - 05:07 PM

1) Fine, let's have another "What is folk" thread. Somewhere else.   The 1954 Definition may need to evolve, but horse definitioners cause in no distinctions betweentypes of music. It is not a matter of style.   The debate should preferably be between people who have read it first. Oh, and defintions do close debate in scinece. Go read the defintions of "Amp" "Volt" "Ohm", the standards for the defintion of the metre, etc. If a new defintion is to be proposed, it is necessary to formulate the problems with the old definition, suggst a new defintion, and argue the advantaages of the new. Simply saying "I don't like it and what I do ought to be called folk" is about as useful as the Monty Python theory of what a dinosaur was. Oh, and speaking of the "wilfully perverse" please tell the prime protagonist of the theory that there should be no such word. The GEFF debate is not about what "F" is, I think. Plenty of wince-making performers do mainly stuff that is not "folk" - often contemporary humorous songs like "The hash my father scored", or "The thieves of Peckham Rye".   

2) Works for me (except I'm not wholly sure what you mean by your reference to a "duck shoot". Where I come from some locals hunt ducks with crossbows to eat. If it's said to be folk, then people who don't like folk don't need to come. I quite like some reggae and ragga, but I'm not going to go to a concert advertiesd as such still less a rapper's open mic competition.

3) (a) Yes

3) (b) Different issue. If a tradition is a tradition then if what you do is not traditional then it's not the tradition (as I think Comhaltas hold, and look at the revivial over the last 30 years in Irish traditional music). There are two things about folk song. You can take it and perform it and arrange it as you wish. In that way in about the 60s the guitar became the prime folk music instrument. In that way the tradition does evolve without Comhaltas pickling in aspic. Secondly, if you look at the 1954 definition it allows for the adoption and evolution of composed pop music, and so too "folk song" evolves. "Tradition" is not the relevant workd in the second part of that evolution.

4) Don't tell me, tell the people who say some people should not be allowed to sing because they alienate people from "folk". As I think Adge Cutler and the Wurzels said "Don't tell I tell 'ee"

5) One person's aesthetics is another's convention. Personally I think ties look silly (but I still sometimes have to wear one). Surely we do not mock the convention or culture of another simply because it is alien to our personal mono-universe, do we (still)?   I always thought skin'eads looked ridiculous, sort of stick figures with clown shoes and wingnuts for heads.   I also understood why the skin'ead culture was. It was a revolution against the pretensions of "progressive music".


It does not lie in the mouths of the self-appointed to act as gatekeepers. Subject as aforesaid, delight to discuss it with someone who listens and responds rationally even if not in agreement with me.

But don't you think it odd that so many of the horse definitioners, after wanting to define the music they perform as "folk" then want to stop some people singing it?

Subject: RE: Folklore: GEFF and Proud of it
From: GUEST,glueman
Date: 13 Apr 08 - 05:23 PM

Followed that one learned Bridge until the last sentence. No intention of stopping anyone doing anything, least of all thinking they're the fairy at the top of the authenticity tree. Like I said, I have a taste for R and B but the cat is out of the bag on that one and RnB now consists of black girls in low cut dresses using 50 notes in a bar designed for 8.

Can't speak for the guitar as the preferred accompaniment to traditional song either. One would imagine it was the popular instrument among beatniks and was absorbed into the folk scene osmotically. More of a banjo man meself. So much of your stuff sounds like no-one understands me and a quick sniff of the smelling salts. I just don't think folk definitions came down with the other wize wordz from Sinai and therefore it has to bob about with the vying cultural artifacts for contemporary head space.

Subject: RE: Folklore: GEFF and Proud of it
From: Leadfingers
Date: 13 Apr 08 - 06:02 PM

When Bill Caddick started the 'Rough Music' sessions at Bracknell Festival back in the Bad Old days , the ground rule was "Perform something that you would NEVER do in a Folk Club" Buggered me completely , 'cos there is NOTHING Musical that I have ever learned , that I would NOT do in a Folk Club - From Classical through to Ragtime and Ballads to Dylan !

Subject: RE: Folklore: GEFF and Proud of it
From: GUEST, Richard Bridge
Date: 13 Apr 08 - 06:06 PM

Thank you Gg - glad you do not wish to strangle - but there are plenty, and plenty on this thread who say that we must not, unless we are good enough, otherwise the great consumers will not live us (bovvered?)

Difference with RnB or any other stylistic definition is that the style defines the genre. That is not so of folk. It is the music that comes from a particular view of culture if I may oversimplify, the music that evolved when mass media did not convey the music of the proletariat (including agricultural workers in that). Thus "folk music" was what had passed on mouth to ear. It works like "folk arts" "folk dance" "folk-tale" "folk medicine" etc etc.

If, with an open mind, you read the 1954 definition, you will see how it works. It also realates to what the musical encyclopaedias say (mostly).

I use no smelling salts (mostly alcohol) and am used to people not understanding, but it vexes me when people will not listen or read (but there I go again). Disagreement, fine (apart from on politics or religion) - but not wilful ignorance.

There is of course a modern vernacular music. But because it comes from a different well spring, it is not folk. It needs a name (like "new country") so that it need not steal one that is already taken.

Subject: RE: Folklore: GEFF and Proud of it
From: Giant Folk Eyeball (inactive)
Date: 14 Apr 08 - 03:35 AM

"the fairy at the top of the authenticity tree"

Brilliant!

Subject: RE: Folklore: GEFF and Proud of it
From: GUEST,glueman
Date: 14 Apr 08 - 03:57 AM

Living folk?
It's an uphill battle, I only go back 50 years and folk has been tagged to almost every acoustic genre with a proletarian disposition. Besides, it's already splitting into anti-folk, acid-folk and so on in response to didacticism and general grumpiness.

Much more sympathetic to you on the quality issue, one man's meat, etc. Some people got their knickers in a twist over the singing ability of the Unthanks. Criticise them for being cloned folkie Spice Girls appealing to male journalists of a certain age by all means but Rachel's creaky harmonies and buzz saw delivery are the most 'real' and appealing thing about them. Nothing unfolkie there, quality and kosher.
It's too much to hope in our intertextual, reflexive, digital times that any music won't annexe its fellow travellers. Where some see dissolution and rot I see hybrid vigour. Perhaps it's just the title that needs working on.

Subject: RE: Folklore: GEFF and Proud of it
From: Jack Blandiver
Date: 14 Apr 08 - 05:21 AM

Find a quiet moment and listen to this:

Snock - Hog of the Forsaken LIVE!

No point to any of the above really, just something beautiful to make y'all smile.

Subject: RE: Folklore: GEFF and Proud of it
From: Jack Blandiver
Date: 14 Apr 08 - 05:23 AM

Okay - try this:

Snock - Hog of the Forsaken LIVE!

Subject: RE: Folklore: GEFF and Proud of it
From: Banjiman
Date: 14 Apr 08 - 05:30 AM

Thanks Sedayne,

That did cheer me up....rough & beautiful.

Paul

Subject: RE: Folklore: GEFF and Proud of it
From: GUEST,glueman
Date: 14 Apr 08 - 05:32 AM

That is brilliant Sedayne. I was musing t'other day there aren't enough fiddle playing singers.

Subject: RE: Folklore: GEFF and Proud of it
From: TheSnail
Date: 14 Apr 08 - 06:48 AM

Great and incontrovertible evidence of blue jeans not panchromatic trousers.

Subject: RE: Folklore: GEFF and Proud of it
From: GUEST,glueman
Date: 14 Apr 08 - 07:44 AM

Will take a camera to Whitby, Holmfirth, Shepley, Southwell, etc to prove trousers of varying hue are a feature of folk scene and not my imagination. Inappropraite head wear is another. As for tankards attached to the body one can only regret current back into the community legislation.

Here's the splendid Hog video if I can work out amberic digitiser:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5QhhRIwhOwA&feature=related

Subject: RE: Folklore: GEFF and Proud of it
From: Jack Blandiver
Date: 14 Apr 08 - 07:51 AM

Fiddling singers! How wonderfully off topic... or is it?

Of course there's Jim Eldon, whose playing invariably raises an eyebrow or two with certain musicians but is nevertheless pure virtuosity to the faithful for whom Jim's genius is a salve to the woes of having been born on this miserable planet in the first place. Evidence?

Try this: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uWg048H_ssU

Otherwise, having tried singing to various fiddles over the years, I've settled on The Black Sea Fiddle (Kemence) as being perfect for the job:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YVzsWVuDMm0

GEFF? Maybe, but only just...

Subject: RE: Folklore: GEFF and Proud of it
From: Jack Blandiver
Date: 14 Apr 08 - 07:53 AM

Make that:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5QhhRIwhOwA

And the lyrics!

And the Hog of the Forsaken got no reason to cry,
He got to chew the angels fallin' from on high,
He ain't waitin' for no answers, bakin' woeful pie,
Pie of eyesight, pie boot-black, oh that pie,
The pie of by-and-by.

And the Hog of the Forsaken well he ain't like you and I,
With bones always breakin' and no place to go an' lie,
He's in the box so dark and wet, he got so much time,
He ain't even worried yet, the Hog of the Forsaken,
He is the Pork of Crime.

And the Hog of the Forsaken, he'll leave you one more chance,
Which, if you won't be takin' he'll leave it for the ants,
He sings out in the wilderness, he sings of friend and foe,
He sings of these and those times - as well
as the times to go.

And the Hog of the Forsaken he swims out into the sea,
Finds the alligator gar chase the leapin' molly,
And chokes the water hyacinth flowin' to the sea,
The Hog of the Forsaken, he is the hog for me!

He chokes the water hyacinth goin' to the sea,
The Hog of the Forsaken, he is the hog for me!
(that's right)