BS: What is Anti-Semitism?

Subject: RE: BS: What is Anti-Semitism?
From: GUEST,Dreaded Guest
Date: 09 May 03 - 02:42 AM

Lurker...Israel is about to profit from American blood. If they do that, they are wicked. They are enemies of America. And Israel is controlled by Jews.

You are one of the laziest debaters I've ever encountered. If you'd bother to go back through this thread you'd see some of the lamest, most inept defenses of Jewish bigotry and racism imaginable. Defenses offered by Jews. I have received enough double-talk to realize that is the REASON the term 'anti-semitism' exists...as a way to double-talk your way out of tight spots and mark people who disagree with your religion. What a sham. Peddle your bigotry to someone who buys it. I've learned all I need to from this thread.

Subject: RE: BS: What is Anti-Semitism?
From: AggieD
Date: 09 May 03 - 06:47 AM

'Lurker...Israel is about to profit from American blood. If they do that, they are wicked. They are enemies of America. And Israel is controlled by Jews'

DG it would appear that it is actually America & possibly Britain that will most likely profit from Iraqi blood. The American right wing government has made it perfectly clear that they want to keep a presence in Iraq. If this is not to feed the greedy American public with their constant need for cheap oil, then I don't see how you can have the cheek to have a go at Israel. I would call you, as others have, blatantly anti-semitic & bigoted, as you have accused Israel of an action that is totally unproven. Has it ever occured to you to look on the positive side of this rumour, that this may be a way of promoting & securing peace through trade between a reformed Iraq? That idea may be a little naive, but who knows, stranger things happen in this life.


Shabbat Shalom

Subject: RE: BS: What is Anti-Semitism?
From: GUEST,Dreaded Guest
Date: 09 May 03 - 11:59 AM

I'm finished with this topic, Aggie. The people who live around me hate Jews as the people who killed Jesus, and I wanted to plumb a little deeper...make some decisions of my own...before the locals go ballistic. There are no Jews around here, so like a blank slate, I asked for a definition of anti-semitism. I've based my conclusions on that. There are some good Jews and some bad, some good Israelis and some bad...as in all groups and nations. What I expected. But the hijacking of the term 'anti-semitism' by the Jews is unacceptable. Arabs are semites too.

And America will never benefit from the Iraqi oil. A couple dozen companies will benefit, but that'll be personal profit, which they'll turn over into buying more govt influence.

You tout the benefits of an 'educated' clergy and Lurker claims to be part of that educated clergy, but your tag-team ignorance is stupefying. Piping oil from Iraq to Israel will be the worst possible symbolic action imaginable in the Mid East, and we all know it. I gather you're not American, so maybe the article below won't apply to you. But it should disturb American Jews. This is why I came back to this thread...to post this link. Take a look at it.

Jumping on the Bandwagon

You talk about 'right-wing' Americans...well Jews are jumping on the bandwagon, it appears. And the sad thing is THERE IS NO RIGHT AND LEFT WING ANYMORE in America. Just privatized, expanding govt intent on eventually controlling EVERYTHING. The left wing has infiltrated the right and taken control of it, and the left-wing agenda of expanding govt is being turbo-charged by the new right...the neo-cons.

But on the topic of Jews, if the oil flows to Haifa and a local soldier comes home dead from Iraq, the people around me will take it quite personally. And I'll have to decide where I stand...with them or against them. I can only talk generalities to them so long...no Jews aren't inherently evil any more than Baptists, no they didn't kill Jesus, no they're not out to steal your children...but they won't listen to that at the funeral. And afterwards they'll only have one question for any Jews they meet...do you support Israel? If the Jew answers yes, he or she will be in severe trouble. See what I'm getting at? American Jews are going to have to distance themselves from Israeli looting, or that will be the litmus test for a LOT of non-Jewish Americans...do you support Americans dying for the enrichment of Israel?

At least I asked the questions and came to my own conclusions. Shalom to you, too.

Subject: RE: BS: What is Anti-Semitism?
From: CarolC
Date: 09 May 03 - 04:42 PM

the concern of both the people and the government, two very different entities, is primarily security, not the economy

While I agree that the primary concern of most Israelis is security, I don't think I can agree with you that this is the primary concern of the current government. I'd say the primary concern of Sharon and the Likud party is supremacy, and they are willing to pursue supremacy at the expense of security.

Subject: RE: BS: What is Anti-Semitism?
From: Ebbie
Date: 09 May 03 - 04:44 PM

Dreaded Guest, how do you and your friends feel about the fact that Jesus was a Jew?

Subject: RE: BS: What is Anti-Semitism?
From: artbrooks
Date: 09 May 03 - 04:58 PM

And, if you check it, the Romans killed Jesus, not the Jews.

Subject: RE: BS: What is Anti-Semitism?
From: GUEST,Dreaded Guest
Date: 09 May 03 - 09:53 PM

But it was the priests of Jewish church that controlled the Romans.

Subject: RE: BS: What is Anti-Semitism?
From: artbrooks
Date: 09 May 03 - 09:56 PM

Oh, sure, DG. Judea was an occupied nation. They had about as much control over the Romans as the French did in Paris in 1942.

Subject: RE: BS: What is Anti-Semitism?
From: GUEST,Dreaded Guest
Date: 10 May 03 - 12:16 AM

Hey, someone hijacked my handle for the last post. Haven't been here all evening. Geez...that's kind of like 'false witness' or something.

I won't be posting on this thread anymore. I made my point. Jews follow a chosen belief system. That makes them as fair game as 'fundamentalist preachers' when it comes to ascribing blame, etc. Saying 'Jews are bad' is no different than saying 'Methodists are bad'. Bigotted, but not racial in nature.

Guess I'll have to find a new handle...due for a trade-in anyway. Jews in America better get ready for a lot of political heat in America, given what people are learning about the NeoCons now. Ever since GWBush has been in office it's been open season on 'fundamentalist Christians', but it's starting to look like Jews are really running this nightmare.

Subject: RE: BS: What is Anti-Semitism?
From: GUEST,Dreaded Guest
Date: 10 May 03 - 12:31 AM

Sorry, Ebbie...didn't mean to ignore you. One more post before I stop here.

The folks around me are country people, Bible-belt. Jesus wasn't a Jew to them. I know better, but I don't think they do. And discussions along those lines heat up real fast. I do a lot more reading and research than they do...a priviledge and a luxury for they may not have to the extent I do...so I try not to hold their beliefs against them. As long as they don't try to impose those beliefs on me. They've come to tolerate me pointing out quirks in their thinking, and they certainly point out enough in mine.

There's not much of a religious mix around here, but there IS a racial mix, and we all know our common bond is the Constitution. Look up Rep Ron Paul of Texas. Most conservative voting record in the House, I believe. Wants to repeal the PATRIOT Act, etc. So that's the kind of person we elect, but he's a conservative in the old sense of the word...minimize govt and let communities work to provide for their own...as long as govt LEAVES US ALONE. We'd rather have hard times on our own terms than on Washington's.

Anyway...yeah, Jesus was a Jew. Kind of a 'radical reformer' in my opinion. Sermon on the Mount is great, but then so is Ecclesiastes.

Subject: RE: BS: What is Anti-Semitism?
From: Little Hawk
Date: 10 May 03 - 02:01 AM

It's a matter of opinion, DG. (Like most other things...) If someone thinks you are anti-semitic because of what you said, it doesn't matter a fig to them how you define the term "anti-semitic".

This is why these discussions end up with people butting heads so often.

However, I get your point all right.

I think the general viewpoint about who is a Jew and who is not goes this way: If someone's parents are known to be "Jewish", then that someone is also considered to be Jewish by inheritance. Whether they have any religious beliefs or not is entirely another matter! There have been plenty of agnostic and atheist Jews who nevertheless claimed to be Jews. Like Woody Allen, for instance, to name just one famous one. I've known any number of Jews who did not have religious beliefs.

So how about that, eh?

- LH

Subject: RE: BS: What is Anti-Semitism?
From: GUEST,Dreaded Guest
Date: 10 May 03 - 09:55 AM

Oh, one more last thing before I go. I want to thank Joe Offer and Max for not giving into Mudcat's Jewish Lobby (hey there, Kol Beseder)and censoring this thread. It's good to know that, despite the efforts of certain Jews, Mudcat still stands for the American free speech that the Jews have supressed in their control of Bush Administration.

Subject: RE: BS: What is Anti-Semitism?
From: GUEST
Date: 10 May 03 - 10:42 AM

Yeah, LH, I think that's it. And I can see why Jews get nervous about their situation. I've heard people say someone 'looks' Jewsish, and it stuns my neighbors when I point out Captain Kirk and Indiana Jones are Jews. Hopefully that makes them stop and give the matter a second thought the next time. But then I've heard people say others 'look' Irish or Polish, so Jews aren't alone in that boat.

It seems, though, just from the posts I've seen here, that Jews try to cover too many bases. They want 'anti-semitism' to apply just to their religious system (volunatry belief), when semites are people from a geographical area. And Jews get into the whole chromosome thing in some weird argument that they can claim to be a race...endless begattings in the OT. Then they say Hitler was bad because he did that stuff.

I find it HIGHLY amusing that Jews on this thread can't account for the two oddities described above. And in utter frustration, someone has taken over my handle. On a larger scale, I suspect we are seeing the same thing happening with the 'neo-cons' in Washington. lol. What a world.

The last 'Dreaded Guest' post wasn't mine and was probably intended as sarcasm for the monitors of this forum, but it has merit. Look at the heat I've received for just asking one simple question. Can't imagine what those folks had to put up with. This is why I've never registered...hundreds of PM's from pissy Jews because I asked what anti-semitism is? I don't think so. I'll just go back to the anonymous posting here I guess.

Subject: Question to Joe Offer
From: GUEST,Kol Baseder (Lo)
Date: 10 May 03 - 02:51 PM

This is why I've never registered...hundreds of PM's from pissy Jews because I asked what anti-semitism is? I don't think so.

Joe Offer,

There is much anti-Semitism -- blatant lies and hate-mongering -- in this thread in the postings of Dreaded Guest, or just plain Guest, as he calls himself in the last post.

I fail to see how free speech on Mudcat is advanced by allowing someone to lie and hate-monger.

Would you allow blatant racism and lies about African-Americans to be repeated ad nauseum in the Mudcat Forum the way that Dreaded Guest's blatant anti-Semitism and lies about Jewish people and the Jewish religion have been repeated ad nauseum inthis thread?

I think a forum where issues are debated openly is a wonderful thing. Speaking as a Jewish person, I have no problem with debates about Jewish theology, we Jews debate such issues all the time. I have no problem with debates about Israel and the Palestinians.

I do, however, think that Mudcat should draw a line in the sand and say that racism, anti-Semitism, homophobia, etc. will not be tolerated
and that such posts will be removed.

I found Mudcat through a link from another folk music site. One of the things that first attracted me to folk music was its inclusivness; its openness to all people and all cultures.

In my opinion, allowing Mudcat to be used, even if only by one despicable person, as a forum for anti-Semitism, makes me as a Jew, feel unwelcome here.

Kol

Subject: RE: BS: What is Anti-Semitism?
From: Little Hawk
Date: 10 May 03 - 03:21 PM

Well, Kol, we probably all feel unwelcome here now and then, for a tremendous variety of individual reasons, but should we be afraid to talk about it? I hope not. Talking beats killing people any day, as far as I'm concerned...and it beats refusing to talk to them too.

DG - You now see why it is a good idea to actually register as a member on the forum. If you do that, then no one can pose as you and post stuff that supposedly comes from you, just to cause you trouble.

The other solution, of course, is just to remain totally anonymous, but then how do you make friends and get to know people and have them know you? That's been the best part about Mudcat for me. I have gotten to know some interesting people and it's added much to my life.

- LH

Subject: RE: BS: What is Anti-Semitism?
From: GUEST,Dreaded Guest
Date: 10 May 03 - 04:10 PM

OK, you win. I see the error of my ways. For some time I've wondered about my conspiracy thesis; thanks for straightening me out.

As for my question as to what is anti-Semitism, I now see that I have exemplified it in these posts.

:) :) :) :)

Subject: RE: BS: What is Anti-Semitism?
From: GUEST
Date: 11 May 03 - 09:43 AM

Don't be so hard on yourself. The Jews didn't present a case here, from what I can see. In fact, many of them were abusive and displayed great intolerance of someone questioning their belief system. Thank you for enlightening us all. Just don't question the Hollywood connection would be my one suggestion. Things seemed to be going fairly smoothly until the movie stars were brought into it. Question the beliefs all you want, but keep your mitts off the box-office.

Subject: RE: BS: What is Anti-Semitism?
From: GUEST
Date: 12 May 03 - 04:25 PM

OK...this is why I asked about anti-semitism. Iraq HAD a middle-class of sorts, but now there is chaos in the country as the US tries to re-install Hussein's old Baath party people to run the country. But the Iraqis aren't buying it, so the US military is demanding all documents on the Baaths be turned over to them so people can be screened (we all know those records will be destroyed so the US can install whoever will be best for business). And then there are these stories:

Twenby bucks a month

More of the same

The twenty dollars a month will become Iraq's new wage. And this will put them in the bottom ten percent in the global economy. So, the US hammered the country, and out of the rubble comes a slave-state which was falsely told their freedom would lead to a better life based on oil wealth. But then there's this, on the topic of oil:

Israeli Booty

So, it appears the US (acting as an extension of the Organized Crime syndicate currently controlling the World Bank and all developed countries), just stole the oil from a predominantly Arab country and is imposing a future of slavery on them while Israel expects to benefit from oil promised to the U.N. for the 'benefit of all Iraqis'.

This seems to add up to the American military being used to turn Arabs into slaves for Israel, so it raises all kinds of questions about who is controlling the American agenda. And given what is in the news now about the Republican 'neo-cons' and their Israeli ties, any thinking American has to wonder what is going on. Are Jews and/or Israelis using the American military to enslave Arabs? Hundreds of Arabs are missing in the American legal system after 9-11, Arabs are being beaten to death at Camp X-Ray in Cuba by Americans, and now Arabs are being paid $20 a month in Iraq while Israel wants to steal Iraqi oil.

I understand not wanting to talk about unpleasant topics, but this is beginning to look suspiciously like outright greed and genocide. To my puzzled eye, at least.

Subject: RE: BS: What is Anti-Semitism?
From: GUEST
Date: 12 May 03 - 04:33 PM

Oh...and when Ariel Sharon first became PM of Israel, he said in a candid interview where he seemed pretty surprised, that GWBush told him once they would be running the show.

GW was Guv of Texas and was scheduled to go to Israel. A reporter asked him why he was going, and he said so he could 'tell all the Jews they're going to hell.' That prompted an emergency visit from Billy Graham who told him to shut up, and it prompted an emergency visit from Bush # 1 who must have laid out part of the 'Big Picture' for Junior. Because when he got to Israel, GW met with Sharon and told him, 'someday I'll be President and you'll be Prime Minister'. Like a freakin' child with a secret. And Sharon seemed genuinely stupefied later on that the 'prediction' had come true.

All this is scripted, folks. And if Bush # 1 told GW years ago about the outcome of future elections, it makes me wonder what else has been orchestrated. Arab slavery?

Subject: RE: BS: What is Anti-Semitism?
From: Forum Lurker
Date: 12 May 03 - 09:24 PM

DG-Read your own damn stories, and maybe you'll have a less skewed view of events. You're complaining that the U.S. is giving health care workers their first month's wages (the same wage they were payed under Saddam) up front? You only see genocide in the making because that's what you want to see. If you have a psychological need to believe that a global conspriacy exists, I seriously recommend therapy, ideally from a psychiatrist.

Subject: RE: BS: What is Anti-Semitism?
From: GUEST
Date: 13 May 03 - 10:27 AM

Read the second article more closely. The man who was the driver. The twenty bucks a month is enough for two children, yet he was making enough to take care of 16 under the old pay system. The US bombed water, electrical and sewage treatement facilities for the past 12 years. 1.5 million dead Iraqis as a result. And now we suddenly give a damn about 'the children'? Bushit. The medical problems were underscored by the media in the US for 12 years (so the UN population-reduction program could gnaw away at Iraq), and now Iraqis are being slapped in the face with a twenty-dollar bill. All I wonder is who's responsible. The fundamentalist Christians around Bush? Clinton was one too, wasn't he, come to think of it. And old man Bush worships Moloch with his son. The Israelis? The Jews?

People read what they want into stories, and these are mostly 'feel good' pieces to make the world thinks the US is taking care of 'the children'. If not the US, the UN, by golly. Bless 'em. What crap. Twenty bucks a month is the new slave wage in Iraq. You'll make more only if you're one of Hussein's old henchmen and are willing to continue your murderous ways for the occupying forces as they build a new oil pipeline to Haifa.

Subject: RE: BS: What is Anti-Semitism?
From: GUEST
Date: 13 May 03 - 10:28 AM

The medical problems were underscored by the media in the US for 12 years...

Make that 'unreported' rather than 'underscored'

Subject: RE: BS: What is Anti-Semitism?
From: Forum Lurker
Date: 13 May 03 - 12:34 PM

I find it amazing that you can tie fundamentalist Christians, fundamentalist Jews and Moloch worship together as if it made sense. Your ability to distort facts to fit your worldview is almost as extreme as that worldview itself.

Subject: RE: BS: What is Anti-Semitism?
From: GUEST
Date: 13 May 03 - 02:09 PM

GWBush is no Christian. Lots of Israelis say Sharon is no Jew. The two men go through the motions...that's all. If Sharon ever went to the Cremation of Care ceremony at Bohemian Grove in California, where the Bushes go, or if GW ever took part in Moloch worship with Sharon elsewhere, that would explain a lot of things.

Jesus wouldn't have commanded US troops to go forth, cross seas and slaughter civilians for oil and opium. I don't know what the Jews' teachings are on the subject, but Jesus wouldn't have condoned that. Something else is guiding the actions of the two fascists. Simple greed? Earthly power? Or occultism?

Subject: RE: BS: What is Anti-Semitism?
From: Forum Lurker
Date: 13 May 03 - 03:04 PM

If you didn't think Christians were responsible, WHY THE HELL DID YOU BRING THEM UP?!?!?!?!?


(several deep breaths later)

I'm going to stop responding to you, because I think that you have a genuinely pathological problem, and unless your tactics stop feeding your need for attention, you're never going to get the help you need. Goodbye, and good luck.

Subject: RE: BS: What is Anti-Semitism?
From: artbrooks
Date: 13 May 03 - 06:59 PM

As usual, you have not read your own link. It says the U-S also has begun paying health ministry workers twenty dollars to return to work. Please show me where it says "per month" in this article. This is clearly a simple bride, in spendable money, and has nothing at all to do with salaries.

Subject: RE: BS: What is Anti-Semitism?
From: GUEST,New York City
Date: 17 May 03 - 01:50 PM

Four bombs, some suicide, some car bombs, have gone off in Casablanca, Morocco. So far, at least 24 people have been killed and scores more injured.

Islamic fundamentalists have claimed credit for this as an attack on the Jews. One of the destroyed targets was a Jewish synagogue. Morocco is one the only Arab/Muslim countries without a state history of persecuting Jews. Apparently, that isn't good enough for some in the Arab world.

Note that this was not an attack on Israel. This was an attack on Jews.

Subject: RE: BS: What is Anti-Semitism?
From: GUEST,New York City
Date: 17 May 03 - 01:52 PM

"Morocco is one the only Arab/Muslim countries without a state history of persecuting Jews."

I meant to say: Morocco is one of the only Arab/Muslim countries without a state history of persecuting Jews.

Subject: RE: BS: What is Anti-Semitism?
From: CarolC
Date: 17 May 03 - 02:17 PM

Here's the Reuters article on the bombings:

Reuters

I've said in other threads (and I've taken quite a beating for it) that Israel's treatment of the Palestinians and the US's support of it, is putting the lives of innocent Americans and Jews all over the world in danger. And many, many people have said that the pre-emptive war on Iraq by the US and the UK would create a lot more terrorism from Islamic extremist, as well as diverting the efforts of the "War on Terrorism" away from the pursuit of al Qaeda, at the expense of the lives of innocent people all over the world.

Looks like maybe we were right.

Subject: RE: BS: What is Anti-Semitism?
From: GUEST,Forum Lurker
Date: 17 May 03 - 04:05 PM

CarolC-The people who are truly putting in danger the lives of innocent Americans and Jews all over the world are the Palestinian terrorists. While I agree that the Israeli methods used to try to control the terrorist problem are ineffective and unnecessarily brutal, I have yet to see anyone put forward a proposal whereby the Israeli government can better ensure the security of the Israeli people than the current official policy. If you have a plan that you think would actually work, I am not the only one who would love to hear it.

Subject: RE: BS: What is Anti-Semitism?
From: GUEST
Date: 17 May 03 - 04:15 PM

A very good article from today's NY Times.

Subject: RE: BS: What is Anti-Semitism?
From: CarolC
Date: 17 May 03 - 04:25 PM

Forum Lurker, I've posted the answer many times. The Oslo process was working wayyyyyy better than the approach being used by the Likud party. The numbers back me up on this. Israel abandoned the Oslo process before it ever took the steps needed to fulfill its obligations under the agreement it signed. That was a disasterous thing to do, and everyone except the Likud party are suffering because of it.

Trying to place the blame on the Palestinians will accomplish nothing except the deaths of a lot more innocent people. Israel needs to own up to it's own culpability in this matter, something I've never seen it even come close to doing since the death of Rabin. The first thing it needs to do is to remove the settlements and stop the occupation. The only other choice is to either kill or remove all Palestinians from Israel and the Occupied Territories. And if Israel does that, you can expect the deaths of a lot more innocent Jews and Americans in terrorist attacks. People do not willingly submit to oppression. Until the governments of Israel and the US understand this, the violence will continue to escalate.

Subject: RE: BS: What is Anti-Semitism?
From: GUEST
Date: 17 May 03 - 07:20 PM

No, CarolC, it was not Israel that abandoned the Oslo process. It was the Palestinians.

Under the Oslo agreement, the Palestinians agreed to abandon violence in favor of negotiations. However, in the last round of high level negotiations, between Israel's Barak and the Palestinians' Arafat at Camp David with President Clinton, everything ended and the 2nd Intifada began, when Arafat walked away rather than negotiate. About 1000 Israelis and twice that many Palestinians are now dead because Arafat killed the peace process.

Subject: RE: BS: What is Anti-Semitism?
From: CarolC
Date: 18 May 03 - 01:11 AM

No GUEST, you are wrong. People have been telling you lies. I've posted this documentation several times here in the Mudcat, but I'll post it again here for you.

This is what Shimon Peres had to say in 2001 about how the Oslo process was brought to a halt:

"We have a skeleton, we didn't complete the house. The Oslo agreement has had a rather short occasion to implement itself, and that was between 1993 and 1996. The Oslo agreement was stopped in 1996 when the government in Israel was changed and Mr. Netanyahu became the Prime Minister. I think that the foundations and the structure of Oslo are still the best ones available. And once we shall have an opportunity, we shall complete the building that may withstand the winds of the outside world, and the skepticism of the people."

--Shimon Peres, September 24, 2001

According to Yitzhak Rabin, Arafat and the PLO were willing to work with him in stopping terrorism. (This was during the time when the Palestinians still had hope because they thought the Oslo agreement would be implemented)...

"In the last two years, not one Israeli has been killed by PLO terrorism," Rabin said. The real threat, he said, does not come from Israel's old adversaries - he pointedly included Syrian President Hafez al-Assad in the faded threat category - but from "the ugly wave of" Iranian-supported Islamic fundamentalism.

--Yitzhak Rabin

And here is documentation about the myth of "Barak's Generous Offer" and who it was that ended that process:

The Myth of the Generous Offer

Distorting the Camp David negotiations
By Seth Ackerman

Here's what that article has to say about the start of the Intifada:

"The Intifada began on September 29, 2000, when Israeli troops opened fire on unarmed Palestinian rock-throwers at the Al-Aqsa Mosque in Jerusalem, killing four and wounding over 200 (State Department human rights report for Israel, 2/01)."

The article goes on to debunk the myth of the "generous offer"

More documentation debunking the generous offer myth:

Adviser: Clinton Exasperated With Barak During Peace Talks

Camp David: The Tragedy of Errors

By Hussein Agha, Robert Malley

Myth of Israel's 'generous offer' damages truth, peace

By MIRIAM WARD

Subject: RE: BS: What is Anti-Semitism?
From: GUEST
Date: 18 May 03 - 11:12 AM

Anyway CarolC, your heroic suicide terrorists got another seven Jews yesterday in Jerusalem.

Subject: RE: BS: What is Anti-Semitism?
From: CarolC
Date: 18 May 03 - 12:19 PM

Cheap shot, GUEST, and I defy you to find a single post of mine where I have advocated the killing of innocents.

Subject: RE: BS: What is Anti-Semitism?
From: Forum Lurker
Date: 18 May 03 - 12:24 PM

CarolC-So, you think that Arafat was right in rejecting Barak's offer? Politically it was idiotic, and morally the same. By refusing the offer, however stingy it might have been, Arafat made himself look like the bad guy, guaranteed continued Israeli presence in the 98% that was offered, and made it much harder for the Palestinian Authority to exercise the control necessary to prevent terrorism. The offer was not a generous end-point, but it granted much more autonomy than the present situation, and I can't see any reason to reject it except pettiness and an unwillingness to compromise. Half of what you wanted is a better position to negotiate for the rest of it than none at all.

Subject: RE: BS: What is Anti-Semitism?
From: CarolC
Date: 18 May 03 - 12:34 PM

Forum Lurker, I would suggest that you read the articles about Barak's offer more carefully. Arafat couldn't have accepted Barak's offer and also have an independant Palestinian state. It would have been impossible to have a viable Palestinian state on the terms that were offered.

Subject: RE: BS: What is Anti-Semitism?
From: CarolC
Date: 18 May 03 - 12:43 PM

By refusing the offer, however stingy it might have been, Arafat made himself look like the bad guy,

Why? Why does this make Arafat look like the bad guy when it was Israel who reneged on the agreement it made with the Oslo accord? Don't you see what a spectacular double standard you and any other people who think this way have with regard to Israel and the Palestinians? In your mind, Israel can do no wrong. In your mind, Palestinians can do no right. This is a pathological mindset, and you will see only more and more suffering on both sides until you and any other people who think like this take a good look at it and correct it.

Subject: RE: BS: What is Anti-Semitism?
From: GUEST,New York City
Date: 19 May 03 - 07:51 AM

CarolC,

Everytime the Israelis agree to negotiate, the Palestinian suicide terrorists destroy any chance of the negotiations working. See photos of the latest Palestinian suicide terrorist attack by clicking here.

Subject: RE: BS: What is Anti-Semitism?
From: CarolC
Date: 19 May 03 - 11:38 AM

GUEST,New York City, what you probably don't know is that every time the Palestinians go to negotiate, the Israeli government goes into the Occupied territories and kills a bunch of innocent Palestinians.

See... it all depends on your perspective and where you get your news. You are getting a perspective that is slanted entirely in Israel's favor. The truth is something quite different than what is being reported in the US, and even in Israel.

The real truth is that every time Palestinian and Israeli moderates try to start a peace process, extremists on both sides start killing people. And as has already been pointed out by a guest in this thread, more than twice the number of Palestinians have been killed than Israeli Jews. I can show pictures too, if you want.

Subject: RE: BS: What is Anti-Semitism?
From: CarolC
Date: 19 May 03 - 12:01 PM

Here's an interesting link from the Israeli Jewish human rights organization, B'Tselem, about Israeli border guards beating innocent Palestinians to death. This article is quite stunning to me, because it's the first time I've seen any mention of any of these border guards facing prosecution. Maybe there's some hope after all...

Click on Beaten to Death in the "On the Agenda" section.

Here's an excerpt:

Border Policemen suspected of beating 'Imran Abu Hamdiya, 17, to death arrested

"On 19 April 2003, four Border Police officers were arrested on suspicion of having beaten to death 'Imran Abu Hamdiya, 17, in Hebron in December 2002. Four other Border Police officers were arrested on suspicion of abusing Palestinians, among them minors, and of stealing from Palestinian shops in Hebron.

The details of the Abu Hamdiya case were as follows: Around 8:00 P.M. on 30 December 2002, a Border Police jeep stopped alongside Abu Hamdiya, who was standing with friends outside his home in Hebron. According to testimonies given to B'Tselem, the Border Policemen put Abu Hamdiya into the jeep and left. A few of Abu Hamdiya's friends went to Hebron's industrial area, which is known as a place where Border Policemen take residents and beat them up. About forty minutes after Abu Hamdiya was taken, his friends found his body lying on the road in the industrial zone."


And in the same site, here's an article about a pregnant woman being crushed to death by the IDF...

Click on Woman Crushed to Death in the "On the Agenda" section.

Here's an excerpt:

"On the night of March 2, IDF forces invaded the Al-Burej refugee camp in what the IDF Spokesperson referred to as an "IDF action against the terror infra-structure." During the operation, the army blew up the house of 'Adel 'Abd a-Salam, whose son had committed, according to the IDF Spokesperson, a suicide attack in the Gaza Strip, wounding four soldiers.

As a result of the explosion, the wall of the neighboring house, the home of Shukri and Nuha al-Mukadame and their ten children collapsed. No one warned the members of the family or told them to evacuate the house. The mother, Nuha Al-Mukadame, 33 and nine months pregnant, was crushed to death under the rubble. Her husband and her children were all injured."

These two stories are just a very small tip of a very large iceberg. Palestinians are human beings just like you and me. Do you understand this?

Subject: RE: BS: What is Anti-Semitism?
From: GUEST
Date: 19 May 03 - 01:46 PM

This just in, CarolC. Your another of Arafat's suicide terrorists struck today at a shopping mall in Northern Israel. At least 3 dead and 47 injured.

Hamas and Arafat's own Al-Asqa Martyrs Brigade commit these acts of suicidal terror knowing full well that Israel will have no choice but to retaliate and make things worse for the Palestinian people. That is what Arafat and his followers want.

On 9/11 Osama knew that America would have no choice but to retaliate. That is what he wanted.

The Osamas and Arafats of this world want their own people dead.

Subject: RE: BS: What is Anti-Semitism?
From: CarolC
Date: 19 May 03 - 01:56 PM

It's what Sharon wants, too, GUEST. He wants everyone to endorse his and the Likud party's agenda, which is to remove all Palestinians from Israel and the occupied territories. The only way for this to happen is for a lot of innocent Jews to get killed.

Never trust your safety to psychopaths who have no regard for human rights. Sharon is such a man. He doesn't care about you or anyone else. All he cares about is his agenda, his power, and his hatred of Palestinians.

Subject: RE: BS: What is Anti-Semitism?
From: AggieD
Date: 19 May 03 - 02:07 PM

'The Osamas and Arafats of this world want their own people dead'

I don't think this is the right way round, I just think that they are the sort of people who are intolerant of anyone who does not hold them as individuals who are supreme leaders & who want ultimate power. They are willing to sacrifice the lives of those around them for their cause, & see nothing wrong with using indocrinated people to do their dirty work for them.

This is just breeding the hatred that they want, & let's not be too innocent here, but there are many in the world who are simply happy to be led, & truly believe that their way is the only right way, & probably will always be intolerant.

Many of the young people that follow these causes have never known any other way than the hate they are told by the leaders & will never be able to understand the decent human right for everyone, no matter what creed or colour to live.

Subject: RE: BS: What is Anti-Semitism?
From: Wolfgang
Date: 19 May 03 - 02:45 PM

it all depends on your perspective and where you get your news.... The real truth is... (Carol)

We can be glad we have you to tell us the real truth in barely more than 20 % of all posts in this thread.

Wolfgang

Subject: RE: BS: What is Anti-Semitism?
From: CarolC
Date: 19 May 03 - 02:53 PM

What's your point, Wolfgang?

Subject: RE: BS: What is Anti-Semitism?
From: GUEST
Date: 19 May 03 - 03:52 PM

There have been no less than five suicide bombings in Israel and
the occupied territories since Saturday night, killing 17 people and
injuring dozens of others. Indeed, the spate of violence overshadowed a historic meeting between Israeli Prime Minister Sharon and the new
Palestinian Prime Minister Mahmoud Abbas Saturday evening. They are the highest level talks between the two sides in more than two years.

So the "road map" peace plan has been put on hold, or perhaps destroyed, which is exactly what the Palestinian terrorists hoped to accomplish.

Subject: RE: BS: What is Anti-Semitism?
From: CarolC
Date: 19 May 03 - 05:26 PM

Once again I will state that I do not condone or endorse the killing of innocents, either Isreaeli or Palestinian.

Having said that, it isn't too difficult to understand what's going on if people can allow their hatred of Palestinians to stop clouding their ability to see.

Associated Press

"The larger group Hamas has said it carried out four attacks over the weekend that killed 13 people, including four bombers, and it made clear today that it would not halt the violence.

"As long as the occupation remains on our land and as long as the occupation soldiers are breathing our air we will continue our resistance," Hamas spokesman Abdel Aziz Rantisi said."

Hammas, an organization that is considered to be radical, has stated quite clearly what they want. They want an end to the occupation. It's pretty simple. You can attribute all kinds of evil motives to these people, but they have been consistant with their demands. End the occupation. I don't know about the Islamic Jihad organization. Maybe they have more extremist views.

So why are people like Hammas, who have clearly stated that they want an end to the occupation, doing things that could gum up the works in the latest "peace process"? If you see what is actually being offered with this "Road Map" scenario, it's not too difficult to understand why Palestinians find it difficult to swallow.

The guaranteed failure of the road map to peace in the Middle East

By Tanya Reinhart (professor at Tel Aviv University and the University of Utrecht)

Excerpt:

Israel responded also to the Road Map with the same old objections. It further emphasized that a negotiated halt to terror is not sufficient and what is required is a visible clash between the new security forces and the opposition organizations (namely, a civil war). Israel even demands that a Palestinian declaration of end of conflict and renunciation of the right of return must be given as a precondition at the beginning of any process, and not at the end. Again, none of this undermines the US position that Israel is the side that is seeking peace, the side "whose security is the key to the security of the world", as Condoleezza Rice put it. The US is ruled today by hawks whose vision is an unending war. Israel, whose leaders are always eager to go on another war, is an asset in this vision. There is therefore no basis for the belief that the US will allow anyone to force Israel to make any concessions.

On 13 March 2002, on the eve of Zinni's peace visit in the previous round, the Israeli army welcomed him with an attack on the Jabalya refugee camp in Gaza, in which 24 Palestinians were killed in one night. Now it has welcomed Powell with a wave of arrests and deportation of international peace activists. In the Pax Americana, there is no room for peace activists. Peace will be brought by the tanks.

Don't envy Abu Mazen By Uri Avnery (Israeli journalist, writer and peace activist)

And another by Uri Avnery:

A Road Map to Nowhere

Excerpt:

"Third question: Is there any kind of balance between the obligations on the two parties? The answer must be "no".

In the first phase, the Palestinians must stop the armed Intifada, establish close security cooperation with the Israelis and recognize Israel's right to exist in peace and security. They must also appoint an "empowered" Prime Minister (meaning, in effect, the neutralization of the elected president, Yasser Arafat) and start the drafting of a constitution that will meet with the approval of the Quartet.

What must Israel do at the same time? It must enable Palestinian officials (note: officials. This does not apply to the rest of the population) to move from place to place, improve the humanitarian situation, stop attacks on civilians and the demolition of homes and pay the Palestinians the money due to them. Also, it will dismantle "settlement outposts" erected since Sharon came to power, in violation of the government's guidelines. Who will decide to whom this applies? There is also no mention of freezing settlement activity in this phase.

Does anyone believe that Prime Minister Abu Mazen could put an end to Hamas and Jihad attacks without any political quid pro quo at all, and while the settlements keep expanding?"

Here's the actual text of the Roadmap in the US Department of State website

Subject: RE: BS: What is Anti-Semitism?
From: GUEST,New York City
Date: 19 May 03 - 05:43 PM

Hammas, an organization that is considered to be radical,has stated quite clearly what they want. They want an end to the occupation. It's pretty simple. You can attribute all kinds of evil motives to these people, but they have been consistant with their demands. End the occupation.

CarolC makes it sound so simple and the Israelis so despicable.

What she fails to tell us is that to Hamas, the "occupation" extends to every inch of historical Palestine, that is to say, all of Israel proper within the pre-1967 borders.

The Hamas leaders have made this clear time and time again. They have told Arafat that should he make peace with Israel, he will be executed. And that, CarolC, is probably why Arafat has never missed an opportunity to sabotage the peace process.

When CarolC lies by ommiting this information, she becomes nothing but an appologist for terrorist murderers. I'm ashamed that I once actually kissed her as a friend. Never again.