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No man's land protest

DigiTrad:
NO MAN'S LAND
NO MAN'S LAND (3)
NOBODY'S MOGGY'S LAND (No Moggy's Land)
WILLIE MCBRIDE'S REPLY


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No Man's Land/willie McBride-rap version? (89)
Info: No Man's Land (Eric Bogle) (46)
Lyr Req: Willie MacBride's Answer to Finbar Furey (11)
Greenfields of France parody... (34)
Alternative lyrics to 'Willie McBride -Flower (7)
Green Fields of France (48)
Lyr Req: Green Fields of France Parody (14)
Lyr/Chords Req: Green Fields of France (Engli (26)
Lyr/Chords Req: No Man's Land (15)
Lyr Req: Parody on Green Fields of France (26)
Lyr Req: Willy Mc Bride (41)
Lyr Req: Willie McBride (Parody) (6)
(origins) Green Fields of France (10)
Lyr Req: Green Fields of France^^^ (22)
Lyr Req: Willie Mc Bride's OTHER reply (2)
Lyr/Chords Req: green fields of france (4)
Lyr Req: no man's land parody (3)
Lyr Add: Willie McBride parody - new chorus (5)
Lyr Add: Not Willie McBride (7)
Lyr Add: The Green Fields of France (12)
Lyr Req: Parody of Willie McBride (21)
Lyr Req: Parody of Green Fields of France (5)
Lyr Req: Willie McBride / No Man's Land (5) (closed)
Chords for The Green Fields of France/No Mans (3)


GUEST,John Foxen 08 Nov 14 - 07:53 AM
GUEST,punkfolkrocker 08 Nov 14 - 10:19 AM
GUEST,Allan Conn 08 Nov 14 - 10:52 AM
GUEST,Fred McCormick 08 Nov 14 - 11:11 AM
GUEST,Fred McCormick 08 Nov 14 - 11:38 AM
Tattie Bogle 08 Nov 14 - 11:40 AM
Bill D 08 Nov 14 - 11:43 AM
The Sandman 08 Nov 14 - 11:55 AM
MGM·Lion 08 Nov 14 - 11:57 AM
GUEST,punkfolkrocker 08 Nov 14 - 12:09 PM
GUEST,Rahere 08 Nov 14 - 12:27 PM
Musket 08 Nov 14 - 12:29 PM
Jack Campin 08 Nov 14 - 12:34 PM
Bonzo3legs 08 Nov 14 - 01:05 PM
GUEST,punkfolkrocker 08 Nov 14 - 01:19 PM
GUEST,Allan Conn 08 Nov 14 - 01:58 PM
GUEST,Morris-ey 08 Nov 14 - 01:59 PM
GUEST,Rahere 08 Nov 14 - 06:52 PM
GUEST,Blandiver (Astray) 09 Nov 14 - 04:01 AM
Jim Carroll 09 Nov 14 - 04:33 AM
GUEST,Allan Conn 09 Nov 14 - 05:00 AM
GUEST,Blandiver (Astray) 09 Nov 14 - 05:02 AM
The Sandman 09 Nov 14 - 05:07 AM
The Sandman 09 Nov 14 - 05:22 AM
GUEST,Rahere 09 Nov 14 - 05:34 AM
The Sandman 09 Nov 14 - 05:45 AM
GUEST,Fred McCormick 09 Nov 14 - 06:03 AM
GUEST,raymond greenoaken 09 Nov 14 - 06:05 AM
GUEST,Blandiver (Astray) 09 Nov 14 - 06:24 AM
GUEST,Fred McCormick 09 Nov 14 - 06:33 AM
Jim Carroll 09 Nov 14 - 06:37 AM
GUEST,Blandiver (Astray) 09 Nov 14 - 07:02 AM
MGM·Lion 09 Nov 14 - 07:32 AM
Jim Carroll 09 Nov 14 - 08:13 AM
banjoman 09 Nov 14 - 08:16 AM
GUEST,Rahere 09 Nov 14 - 01:52 PM
GUEST,goatfell 09 Nov 14 - 01:55 PM
The Sandman 09 Nov 14 - 02:32 PM
Marje 09 Nov 14 - 03:59 PM
GUEST,Guest 09 Nov 14 - 04:54 PM
GUEST,punkfolkrocker 09 Nov 14 - 06:36 PM
Jeri 09 Nov 14 - 06:59 PM
GUEST,punkfolkrocker 09 Nov 14 - 07:16 PM
Jeri 09 Nov 14 - 08:09 PM
GUEST,raymond greenoaken 10 Nov 14 - 05:11 AM
GUEST,Derek Schofield 10 Nov 14 - 05:53 AM
GUEST,Fred McCormick 10 Nov 14 - 06:16 AM
Bonzo3legs 10 Nov 14 - 06:17 AM
GUEST,henryp 10 Nov 14 - 06:41 AM
GUEST,Jon Heslop 10 Nov 14 - 07:55 AM
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Subject: RE: No man's land protest
From: GUEST,John Foxen
Date: 08 Nov 14 - 07:53 AM

I managed to listen to about three lines of "And it's Hi Ho Willie McBride and away we go".
The petition is a waste of time to my personal protest will be to send the British Legion the price of the CD along with a letter saying I couldn't gear to buy this egregious piece of shite but I do support the work the Legion does in helping those who have been injured and families bereaved due to the misguided military adventures of British governments.


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Subject: RE: No man's land protest
From: GUEST,punkfolkrocker
Date: 08 Nov 14 - 10:19 AM

I'll suggest for your consideration...

Very few singers, including Eric Bogle, can perform a genuinely captivating heartfelt rendition of this song
because it is long and melodically repetitious.
It'll take a very special singer to overcome these difficulties.....???

Despite it's intended "powefull anti war message",
maybe it's not a very good song in the first place.
Not a lot of 'protest songs were ever actually musically any good ???.
Perhaps most were better read, debated, and chanted in unison on protest marches
than listened to for entertainment..???


Still, carry on getting your saggy old thermal long johns in an over exagerated twist if you must do.....


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Subject: RE: No man's land protest
From: GUEST,Allan Conn
Date: 08 Nov 14 - 10:52 AM

"Not a very good song in the first place" Everyone has their own opinions and taste right enough but as a songwriter by hobby I just want to say that I'd love to come up with a song that "not good"


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Subject: RE: No man's land protest
From: GUEST,Fred McCormick
Date: 08 Nov 14 - 11:11 AM

FWIW, I don't think No Man's Land is one of Bogle's best, but that's not the point. Neither is the appalling lash up which constitutes the vocal and the arrangement.

What is not beside the point is that the BL, or which ever record producer they appointed, took a song which is pointedly and uncompromising anti-miltarist, and ripped the guts out of it. They turned an anti-war song into an apology for war and that is unforgiveable.

I've just given a FWIW, so here's a BTW. I've read Eric Bogle's thoughts on the matter (see above) and can only say that he is being a lot more magnanimous than I would have been under similar circumstances. But I wonder what he makes of that blackboard slogan at the end of the video; the one which says one million men and women from Britain and the British Empire died in the first world war. I couldn't agree more. It is an appalling statistic. But what about all the other people; the other allied forces and the men and women on the opposing side?

Like the poet said, "All soldiers look the same in the grave".


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Subject: RE: No man's land protest
From: GUEST,Fred McCormick
Date: 08 Nov 14 - 11:38 AM

I've just taken another look at the Eric Bogle Youtube video. To add insult to injury, it was preceded by an advert for the Joss Stone version, followed by a banner proclaiming the JS as the "official" British Legion single for 2014.

Somebody questioned whether William McBride really existed. The Bogle video shows his gravestone. It says he was a member of the Royal Inniskilling Fusiliers, Army no 21406, and that he died on 10th February 1916. That is all. It doesn't his birth date, but Eric could have got that from other sources.

The point is that he was another living sensate human being, who was cut down at the tender age of 19, for no more reason than he wore an army uniform, and that the powers that be on both sides regarded him and his kind as just another piece of cannon fodder. He now lies in mute silent witness to the horror and obscenity not just of the first world war, but of all the wars that have happened since.


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Subject: RE: No man's land protest
From: Tattie Bogle
Date: 08 Nov 14 - 11:40 AM

Musket, I entirely agree with you about the people whom one might not want to hear singing that song: I have also experienced the "heart sink" feeling referred to by DTM when certain people start singing it in a session. As for Joss Stone: even if she had done all the verses, it is pretty unlikely that she would have done it in "folkie style". I was not suggesting that only Eric Bogle could sing it, nor that anyone else who did should slavishly copy his style: but as others have said, there are only so many good versions out there (all a matter of taste, I know, as to what is "good"!)
And as for writing her own song: I saw a TV interview with her by the sea of poppies at the Tower of London, where she was saying how emotional she found it. Plenty of other people have written their own songs about WW1, from my great-grandfather who served with the Gordon Highlanders in France, to myself, and many others in between: so why do you think it so odd to suggest she wrote her own song??


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Subject: RE: No man's land protest
From: Bill D
Date: 08 Nov 14 - 11:43 AM

Somewhere about late 1977, I heard June Tabor's version played on the folk program in Wash DC. I was transfixed.... various local people learned it, and it was sung reverently around here on special occasions, with only minor alterations that simply reflected different singers' ideas of pace and emphasis. It was a fine, moving song which, no matter what one thinks about 'accuracy' or exact title.

Naturally, it became an obvious vehicle for other recording 'artists' to take a ride on, and it's almost de rigueur for many to "make a song your own".....well, maybe... for some songs. Bogle's intent, as he makes clear, has been severely distorted in many recent versions. But he also realizes it is far beyond his control now. The list of songs which have been atrociously mangled is longer than any of our arms...(I have 70 versions of "Hard Times Come Again No More" ... a few of which are good, a few decent.... and many that make me go "Huh?")

The Men They Couldn't Hang don't 'get' the tune... which changes the feel of the song. The Dropkick Murphys come closer to MY taste, but still pace it awkwardly and do a few odd things to the melody in places. So? At least they don't sanitize the message and change the basic intent. If the song is intended for an audience which may have no knowledge of the original, why not just write a new song that says what they wish? Oh- right... talent & ability andde gustibus non disputandum.

There's little that can be done except to occasionally sing it closer to the way Bogle intended and try to expose offenders to 'other' recorded versions. Those who get it will ...get it... and perhaps do better afterwards. Petitions are probably a waste of time in these cases, but *shrug*... a little publicity might raise a few consciousnesses.


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Subject: RE: No man's land protest
From: The Sandman
Date: 08 Nov 14 - 11:55 AM

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DGzLlTYgv-E


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Subject: RE: No man's land protest
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 08 Nov 14 - 11:57 AM

"why do you think it so odd to suggest she wrote her own song?"

.,,.

The simple answer to that is that she is a singer, not a writer. A few people manage to be both: but there is nor earthly reason that the talents should go together in any particular individual; and indeed they rarely do.

So the suggestion that she should do so is, with all respect, IMO a little silly. Might as well suggest that Enrico Caruso should have written his own operas.

≈M≈


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Subject: RE: No man's land protest
From: GUEST,punkfolkrocker
Date: 08 Nov 14 - 12:09 PM

The wiki for "No Man's Land" lists approx 60 official recorded cover versions...

Then there's who knows's how many amateur youtube attempts..

If I was a seriously good singer contemplating doing my own version,
I'd consider it my 'duty' to research as many existing recordings as possible
to get a feel for what works, and what dilutes or destroys the intent of the song.

My suspicion is that most of those recordings may be over reverential hackneyed plodding dirges..

At the end of the research process, I might end up so sick of the song
I'd give up and just walk away from it.


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Subject: RE: No man's land protest
From: GUEST,Rahere
Date: 08 Nov 14 - 12:27 PM

GSS
You've not defined what militarism is, if you disagree with mine. When you stage parades and pretty uniforms and prey on emotions with brass bands in as blatant a way as this sets out to, then you have a responsibility for creating an image which is not that of the reality of soldiering, which is predominantly boredom and bullshit interrupted by periods of huge pressure. Once upon a time, that last was expressed in terms of fugue, as terror or worse. But now we train our troops not to give in to the red fog of war or simple terror, and that requires a certain intelligence. The problem is that the RBL approach is predicated in the days before this was true, when conscripted men of whatever rank only did what they were instructed to by an officer, whose first lesson was actually the opposite of the practice, that their best adviser was their platoon sergeant. Nowadays you'll not infrequently find that's been simplified, with sergeants actually commanding platoons and on occasion RSMs commanding battalions. The best man does the job and we no longer allow forelock-tugging. And so what the RBL does is now counter-productive.

The modern military requires men and women who are honest to themselves as an essential core element of their very nature. The old days of drill sergeants whipping up hysteria before teaching killing have gone, a soldier who kills must know why. He must be ready to act as needed at the right time, and that can mean being ready to kill instantly - but it also means being ready to hold one's hand, and to be able to differentiate between the two needs. He's bound by written Rules of Engagement, and is held to them.

Yes, an essential element of soldiering is a search to be the best, and that starts in drill, in having one's kit in good and proper order at any time and in precise control of oneself. It builds a core for a correct response when the pressure comes on, in things like the standard form of orders, so you can function as a commander when you're at your limit, when you've had no sleep for three days and you're on the edge of breakdown as a result. The training teaches you where those limits lie, and how to not go past them, either in yourself or in those under you.

But that is a matter of professionalism, and it needs not stop with the military. When I joined WEU as a senior civilian officer, we were upgrading from a dipolomatic thinktank, and the question arose within the civilian staff what their role working with the military HQ we built alongside us could be. I taught them that their job was every whit as essential as the military planners, that they should not think to be any less than them, lest by that weakness they create the gap by which someone is killed. That is a huge difference from the MOD, and a bigger one still from the 9-5ers the EU put into our jobs when they thought they could do better. Never once was the question even hinted at about worrying about working hours, the job was only done when it was done, and WEU's theoretically non-executive grades routinely carried the responsibilities and authority of an executive grade. Heck, for most of the time I as senior accountant was one, and I'd never have it any different! Just the same as in the Forces, we were the best and knew it by proving it every day. And simply demonstrating that you're not a slovenly rabble doesn't count in my book, Europe is full of toy soldiers, who find it difficult to make it stick when it matters. The RBL encourages the former, not the latter.

So no, I'm not buying your mealy-mouthed attempt to define the question in the RBL's own terms. It's an anachronism, and the bluster shows it. At least the return parades for forces coming back from campaign don't shoehorn them into that in the way they did when I was one of them, no sudden need to bull boots last attended to months or years before, you take us as we are and no other.

However, that does not deal with what we have here. The real reason for this hoo-hah is to make our political leaders look good by wrapping themselves in a form of Patriotism they've rarely earned. I make a specific exception for the 50 who have done their time, but only one Minister is among their number, Ian Duncan Smith: in the Labour Government which took us to war, not a single Cabinet Minister had served.

The only other reason for these pretty parades is tourism. My Dad used to beg to go to the Royal Marines barracks at Eastleigh "to see the soldiers jump", nigh on a hundred years ago. Kids will be kids, and throng the streets of London for the Lord Mayors Show, much the same. But we need adults, not kids, and we do not have time to build that kind of self-awarenesss.

Our Continental cousins wonder about us in this militarism - I know because I worked with them and had to explain it. We still live in a world where the Germans are castigated three genrations after the Nazis left power, and where we seem to wallow in mawkish necrophilia only beaten by the Victorian fascination with death - they at least had some excuse for it. Is this some kind of death-wish, or a paranoid fascination with the dead, the way mountains of flowers appear near newsworthy death, but not near an ordinary death? Or is it a form of desperately seeking one's fifteen minutes of fame by surrogacy?

We see today war widows getting something they were promised but which a good number did not receive. Yet it's spun as a huge victory for them, whereas the Treasury has got away with NOT granting it to those who gave up waiting, it's not backdated, leaving one wondering whether the Armed Forces Covenant is worth the paper it's written on. And anything which allows the political world to look good under those circumstances is to be castigated. Tonight they'll all be on parade in the RBL Festival of Remembrance in the Albert Hall, and tomorrow the Cenotaph, mostly . I've just looked up the running order: Pointless Celebrities. Strictly Come Dancing. Doctor Who. National Lottery Live RBL Festival of Remembrance. News. Match of the Day. The first summed it up, I fear, and Joss Stone is one of the most pointless.


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Subject: RE: No man's land protest
From: Musket
Date: 08 Nov 14 - 12:29 PM

Yo Tattie Bogle. Reading some posts, I admit I was looking for fault. Your comment seemed to stand out. If I took it out of context I apologise.


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Subject: RE: No man's land protest
From: Jack Campin
Date: 08 Nov 14 - 12:34 PM

And guess who's got their ad showing on the Mudcat index page.


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Subject: RE: No man's land protest
From: Bonzo3legs
Date: 08 Nov 14 - 01:05 PM

Great record and great guitar solo - hard life innit!!!!!


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Subject: RE: No man's land protest
From: GUEST,punkfolkrocker
Date: 08 Nov 14 - 01:19 PM

F@ck knows why I'm doing this but I've listened to so many versions of this song since yesterday
my mind is starting to play odd tricks...

I'm now starting to get earworm resonances of "The Unicorn" by The Bachelors, Terry Jacks "Seasons In The Sun"
and weirdest and most inexplicable of all, Shirley Bassey's "Kiss me honey honey (kiss me)"...!!!???

Hmmm.. is there an upbeat calypso version of "No Man's Land"...???

I think I need a break for a mug of tea....


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Subject: RE: No man's land protest
From: GUEST,Allan Conn
Date: 08 Nov 14 - 01:58 PM

Fred there were various William McBrides who died in the war. Several of whom died in 1916. None of the gravestones match the details in the song as can be checked on the Commonwealth War Graves site. The grave you mention doesn't name his as William as it only has an initial and doesn't mention what age he is. As far as I have read Bogle wrote the song in a hotel room in Germany whilst touring with Hamish Imlach. He was probably doing it from memory but for some reason had remembered the name William McBride (perhaps simply because it rhymed with graveside) so don't you think rather than the song being about one actual idividual it is more likely to be about all the fallen. As per the unnamed warrior at the Cenotaph? The details in the song probably have more to do with what rhymed and scanned rather than hard facts!


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Subject: RE: No man's land protest
From: GUEST,Morris-ey
Date: 08 Nov 14 - 01:59 PM

The point is it does not matter who sings what or how. This is "the" song and there is nothing you can do about it.

If I were the British Legion I would tell all the whingers to feck off, shove their mean spirited petition up their sanctimonious arses, and let those who choose to make a donation or to buy the tune to do so in peace.


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Subject: RE: No man's land protest
From: GUEST,Rahere
Date: 08 Nov 14 - 06:52 PM

There is no soldier buried at the Cenotaph, the word is a construction from Greek bits meaning "empty grave". Whether they mean by that the occupant was an avatar of Jesus, or if it is simply waiting for a suitable occupant, I don't know. The grave of the unknown warrior is in Westminster Abbey, and scattered over the world.
As far as Morris-ey's concerned, nobody's telling you not to buy your poppies. What we're pointing out is that alongside it is a rather nasty package which we should have long outgrown, and that as ever our government says one thing and does another. The day we bow to such sanctimoniousness is the day we cease to be English.
And for the smile, in Afghanistan they object to people planting poppies: here, the Telegraph mythologises David and Samantha Cameron planting "the last 2 poppies" whilst round the corner, people were still being flogged them at £25 a pop to plant their own little bit on glory. Not to mention what he's up to in this picture...


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Subject: RE: No man's land protest
From: GUEST,Blandiver (Astray)
Date: 09 Nov 14 - 04:01 AM

I love the cries of Sacrilege! here. Personally I've always found the song pretty sacrilegious in itself (see this classic piece of 'catlore in which I was rounded upon for daring to express this heresy back in 2012: No-man's Land - Rap Version). Divested of its cultish anti-war 'message', No-man's Land at least has a chance of appealing to the majority of people for whom the reality of war has been an unfortunate necessity of human culture across the millennia, as the history books will attest. Militarism is an integral aspect of that reality, replete with its own tradition and folklore, thus most of us can wear our poppy with pride - with thanks to the likes of Willie McBride; military men who gave their lives in a good faith that remains sacred. He would, no doubt, be appalled to find his name disrespected by peacenik songwriters. The rest is, quite simply, unsayable.

My choice of Remembrance Sunday folksongs will be Peter Bellamy singing his setting of Kipling's My Boy Jack followed by Dick Gaughan's epic rendering of Hamish Henderson's The 51st (Highland) Division's Farewell to Sicily. Chances are I'll have Shirley & Dolly Collins' Plains of Waterloo in there too.


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Subject: RE: No man's land protest
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 09 Nov 14 - 04:33 AM

You said it - "No-man's Land at least has a chance of appealing to the majority of people - divested of its cultish anti-war 'message'" - sanitised, in other words.
Bogle wrote it because he is against war and (presumably) finds W.W.1 the obscenity most of us do - what a bastard eh - how dare he interfere with our entertainment!!!
The best way to "hold sacred the memories of those who gave their lives" (for whatever reason) is to make sure it doesn't happen again, and the best way to do that is to keep reminding ourselves of what happened and why
Far lass comfortable than paying lip-service with a poppy, minnd you
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: No man's land protest
From: GUEST,Allan Conn
Date: 09 Nov 14 - 05:00 AM

Thanks for the correction Rahere but I take it you get the point I was making to the other poster. Blandiver how can you possibly know what any of the William McBrides buried in the war graves would have thought about Bogle's sentiment after they had experienced the horrors of the war? You are simply projecting your own views on to someone else who may or may have not been a specific person. Bogle at least in the song gives his views and wonders what the soldier would think. You've already seem to have made up your mind that you know what the soldier thinks.


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Subject: RE: No man's land protest
From: GUEST,Blandiver (Astray)
Date: 09 Nov 14 - 05:02 AM

to make sure it doesn't happen again and the best way to do that is to keep reminding ourselves of what happened and why

It will happen again, Jim - again, and again, and again - and for the very best & worst of reasons as we struggle towards some ultimate enlightenment where we might, at last, live in peace. Until such a time (someway off yet I fear!) be respectful of the sacrifice of those to whom we owe our present freedoms, however so imperfect they may be.

Far lass comfortable than paying lip-service with a poppy, minnd you

The ultimate comfort is the mawkish sentiment of the anti-war songs under discussion here; it's a sucky-blanket dream that belittles the horror of war by denying its terrible reality. It will not be washed away by the crocodile tears of a dozen or so peacenik folkies in their self-appointed moral superiority, for its measure is the millennia of aching sorrow that such sacrifice was not only necessary but risen to. That's why I wear a poppy. A simple gesture to a reality I cannot begin to comprehend.


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Subject: RE: No man's land protest
From: The Sandman
Date: 09 Nov 14 - 05:07 AM

"You said it - "No-man's Land at least has a chance of appealing to the majority of people - divested of its cultish anti-war 'message'" - sanitised, in other words.
but how is it different from Sharps Sanitisation
here we go, Sharps bowdlerisation worked however because he got the songs into primary schools, all of us sang them until they were taken out of the school curriculum in the 1960s, so they were popularised and we did go onto find the original versions.
if the song is sung at rembrance day parades etc, there is a chance that some people might stumble across the original, however if a campaign is maintained and pressure is put upon the British legion TO RE INCLUDE THE MISSING VERSE, and they do so that would be even better,which is why i have signed the petition, yours Dick Miles[Talentless Moron]


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Subject: RE: No man's land protest
From: The Sandman
Date: 09 Nov 14 - 05:22 AM

"So no, I'm not buying your mealy-mouthed attempt to define the question in the RBL's own terms"
mealy mouthed?,if you dont like mealy mouthed, here we go, you are a feckin misinformed ignoramus, the british legion does not promte militrism our elected politicians do that plus the army recruiting organisations , the British legion sole purpose is to look after exservicemen, REMEMBRANCE DAY SERVICES ARE NOT ATTEMPTS TO PROMOTE MILITARISM, they are about rembering those who died in wars.


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Subject: RE: No man's land protest
From: GUEST,Rahere
Date: 09 Nov 14 - 05:34 AM

No, I still feel that's a bit complacent, Jim.
Those of us who disagree don't stuff our message down everybody's throats with an incessant barrage of propaganda for months on end. Is it really news that this year like every one for close on a hundred past the Army's having an amble down Whitehall and civic dignitaries are closing roads down for miles around in London? Instead, we have to justify our criticisms in things like the thread on Oh! What a Lovely War! when the facts are there in black and white.
For fifty years, my peers and our predecessors brought the politicians of Europe together to learn that jaw jaw is better than war war. However, the big-heads thought they could do it themselves, and in a bare ten years have returned us to the condition where, in Gorbachev's words, "Failure to achieve security in Europe would make the continent irrelevant in world affairs," because it is becoming "an arena of political upheaval, of competition for the spheres of influence, and finally of military conflict."
This is NOT the legacy we left the European Commission. Instead of mutual cooperation and respect, their infighting has set us back forty years. And that is the fruit of those Don Maclean described, "They are not listening, they're not listening still. Perhaps they never will."

So, when in twenty years time we're at war once more within Europe, remember this from someone who was entrusted to keep and hold the peace, and did so: although it is necessary to prepare for war if you wish to maintain it, taking that as a justification for war is a betrayal of the objective. I don't give a monkeys who's causing it, trying to see whose balls are the bigger simply reduces the world to a bunch of fucking simians - or worse, because even Bonobos use negotoiation to resolve their problems. Perhaps Cameron and Merkel should be locked in a room together with nothing but aphrodisiacs in the ventilation.


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Subject: RE: No man's land protest
From: The Sandman
Date: 09 Nov 14 - 05:45 AM

Rahere
furthermore if my parents had not fought against Hitler in the second world war, I would not be here to post, remembrance day services are not about promoting militarism ,neither is the BritishLegion about promoting militarism it is about remembering those who died and caring for ex servicemen, which is why the last verse of the song should be included.
People like Jack Campin and yourself who try to promote an extreme opinion "The British Legion promotes militarism" are not helping this campaign to get the missing verse included.


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Subject: RE: No man's land protest
From: GUEST,Fred McCormick
Date: 09 Nov 14 - 06:03 AM

Re., various comments about war happening again and again and again. Did nobody else notice that, on the eve of Rememberance Sunday, Mikhail Gorbachev, the ex-premier of the USSR, made a speech claiming that we are on the brink of a new cold war?

When will we ever learn?


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Subject: RE: No man's land protest
From: GUEST,raymond greenoaken
Date: 09 Nov 14 - 06:05 AM

This just in: The British Legion admit they insisted on the key change on verse three.


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Subject: RE: No man's land protest
From: GUEST,Blandiver (Astray)
Date: 09 Nov 14 - 06:24 AM

When will we ever learn?

We won't. That's the point. That's why we need to stand ready.

Hell, at least it was new cold war and not nuclear war as I heard it on the Radio 4 news last night over the road noise on the M61!


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Subject: RE: No man's land protest
From: GUEST,Fred McCormick
Date: 09 Nov 14 - 06:33 AM

Just an observation about Eric Bogle's claim that NML would have been too long for a single. He's obviously forgotten the Animals' version of House of The Rising Sun, which went on for around 6 minutes, and proved an enormous hit. Not being a pop fan I couldn't put a name to any other epic blockbusters, but I'd have thought there were plenty 55which broke the three minute sounds barrier by a similar margin.

Also, without listening to it again and suffering another coniption fit, does the JS version not use the chorus after every verse?

Surely, if time were such an important factor, it would have been better to drop a couple of choruses?


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Subject: RE: No man's land protest
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 09 Nov 14 - 06:37 AM

"it's a sucky-blanket dream that belittles the horror of war by denying its terrible reality."
No - it does not - it deals with war in retrospect - nothing wrong with that, nor is there anything wrong with sentiment - sentimentality maybe, sentiment is a human reaction.
Bogle treats the subject from another point of view altogether, with his 'Waltzing Matilda' - both have their merits.
The problem with Willie McBride is it is oversung by people who don't give a **** one way or the other.
Your sneery dismissal of 'peacenic folkies who, at least make an effort to make their views known, is an indication that your own activities are (once more) confined to the armchair and your poppies - easier to knock something down somebody else has built than build something yourself (again)


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Subject: RE: No man's land protest
From: GUEST,Blandiver (Astray)
Date: 09 Nov 14 - 07:02 AM

Jim - a word in your shell-like if I may...

In expressing my opinions in this, or any other matter, I so so without recourse to personal insults, or personal comments per se (unless sorry provoked). Why then in responding to what I say you attack me with personal invective?

Please, stick to the discussion, huh? Keep the personal stuff to yourself.

*

Oversung? My God! There's an over statement! I haven't heard the new version (and hope I never do) but... imagine... this day... there are people out there - a lot of people - more people than there ever will be Folkies - who are hearing this thing for the first time. Imagine that....

Naturally feel the same way about The Band Played Waltzing Matilda, but without it we wouldn't have had Ron Baxter's masterful Who'll Go to Morecambe? - which is less a parody than am alchemical transfiguration of something base into pure gold.

The reality is, we live in world where shit happens : one of the civilian horrors of war are the anti-war songs. As good a reason as any to stay out of folk clubs in November I'd say!


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Subject: RE: No man's land protest
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 09 Nov 14 - 07:32 AM

I feel that this resolute cynicism, and doubt as to the sincerity of others' motives, do you little credit, Sean.

≈M≈


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Subject: RE: No man's land protest
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 09 Nov 14 - 08:13 AM

"Why then in responding to what I say you attack me with personal invective?"
I respond to your permanent (apparently) dismissive attitude towards other opinions - you do it all the time, as Mike has just pointed out.
Don't be surprised when others take it personally and respond to it appropriately
I'm afraid I find Ron Baxter's piss-take a little less than masterful, to say the least, but I am rather fond of Fintan Vallely's parody, which doesn't set out to denigrate the song, rather, it laments a song sung to death
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: No man's land protest
From: banjoman
Date: 09 Nov 14 - 08:16 AM

Although I thinks that this version is awful, I feel that at the end of the day, you have to go along with the views from the writer.
Personally, I prefer me singing it in my living room.


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Subject: RE: No man's land protest
From: GUEST,Rahere
Date: 09 Nov 14 - 01:52 PM

GSS
Are you a veteran? I at least got my mush in the Stasi files as someone they'd like to have an accounting with. Yes, according to the Armed Forces Covenant I'm a veteran too, but that doesn't mean I still have to obey orders to toe the line.
I'm actually far more aligned with tonight's celebration in Berlin, as that was a little something I did some pushing on from way before it happened. Ending the Cold War is something I had quite a hand in, not just politically but as a human being, making certain the former Warsaw Pact officers and diplomats turning up like new boys in school discovered we were actually normal.
That, I think, is the difference. Germany has something to celebrate, looking forwards positively. We have something black in this, and it's unhealthy for a nation and it's unhealthy for the individuals. The motive then is not the motive now : it's fallen into the hands of fundraisers, whose motives are more to do with the cut they get than what they are claiming: just look at their logo to see what their approach to business is...and it's not going to improve.


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Subject: no man's land (new)
From: GUEST,goatfell
Date: 09 Nov 14 - 01:55 PM

What A load of rubbish it is. What do you think.


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Subject: RE: No man's land protest
From: The Sandman
Date: 09 Nov 14 - 02:32 PM

am i a veteran?a veteran of what?am i a veteran of suffering mudcat posters, yes.


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Subject: RE: No man's land protest
From: Marje
Date: 09 Nov 14 - 03:59 PM

To return to the topic of the song, I've now had a listen to part of the Joss Stone version. I couldn't stand more than a verse or so of it , so I never got as far as the bowdlerised bit. It's a truly dreadful rendition - over-orchestrated, cheesy, messy - and why did anyone think it was a good idea to choose a singer who favours a fake-American, "soul" style of vocals? Utterly inappropriate, and the result is simply a horrible noise, with neither the tune nor the lyrics easy to discern.

Yesterday's Independent carried a report about this controversy, and quoted Bogle's reservations about this version of his song.

Marje


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Subject: RE: No man's land protest
From: GUEST,Guest
Date: 09 Nov 14 - 04:54 PM

Whether or not we like this song in its original format (and I do) is not the point. The song was written for a purpose and with an intended meaning - that is the point.

Eric Bogle has been very diplomatic and forgiving in his response to this outrage but the rest of us should react with anger at this bastardisation of a beautiful and emotive song and the trampling underfoot of its message. Leaving aside the wholly inappropriate Rock/Pop arrangement; only an artist who had complete contempt for the meaning of the lyrics, for their intended effect and for the writer of those lyrics would have accepted a commission to perform this disgracefully sentimentalised and censored version of a moving and thought provoking anti-war anthem. Joss Stone and Jeff Beck have exposed their complete lack of integrity in agreeing to produce this travesty and the Royal British Legion have shown their own antipathy towards the sentiments behind the song. If they didn't like an anti-war message then they shouldn't have used an anti war anthem. There are plenty of songs glorifying and/or setimentalising the sacrifice of war dead they could have chosen (the Horst Wessel song has its English language counterparts) but this song was supposed to be about the futility of the First World War and the failure to learn its lessons. Stone, Beck and the RBL should all be thoroughly ashamed of themselves.


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Subject: RE: No man's land protest
From: GUEST,punkfolkrocker
Date: 09 Nov 14 - 06:36 PM

"Whether or not we like this song in its original format (and I do)...

etc.. etc.. etc.. and all the rest of this overstated over-reacting hyperbolic bollox...

Stone, Beck and the RBL should all be thoroughly ashamed of themselves.
"

FACT:

My mrs sat in front of the telly watching the BBC Royal British Legion Festival of Remembrance on catch up this tea time...
[dialogue as best remembered, Mrs punkfolkrocker in italics]

"Oh, what's this song, this is really good, its so sad..
Rewind and play it again.
"

After 2nd viewing she's in tears.

I'm fully aware of this thread, so I ask her a few brief questions while the TV is on pause.

"Do you really not know this song ?" - "No, what is it ?"

"I'll tell you in a minute. Why are you crying"

"It's such an emotional song, about those poor young soldiers"

"Do you think it's a pro or anti war song ?"

"It's obviously anti war, of course it is.. they died so young in horrible conditions"

"Don't you think she over sang it ?, she's a bit histrionic in places"

" no, shes good, she's emotional, I liked her. Why are you asking all these questions, put the telly back on.."

I quickly explained about the protest petition and general uproar on this thread..

" seriously ?, oh, people can be so ridiculous..."

I fell asleep during the lord's prayer for most of the rest of the TV program...


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Subject: RE: No man's land protest
From: Jeri
Date: 09 Nov 14 - 06:59 PM

Did you die quick [well?] and did you die clean
Or Willie McBride, was it slow and obscene


Oh yeah, I can see how that could be glorifying war...

I didn't like her version, but mainly because I don't like the way she sings...trying too hard. Any attention the song gets has to be good. As Mrs PFR's example shows, tastes vary.


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Subject: RE: No man's land protest
From: GUEST,punkfolkrocker
Date: 09 Nov 14 - 07:16 PM

Jeri - afterwards, she insisted I find her the original full length Bogle version on youtube..

Which I suspect may be happening in many many more households throughout the UK...??????????


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Subject: RE: No man's land protest
From: Jeri
Date: 09 Nov 14 - 08:09 PM

I thought so too. The attention is good.


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Subject: RE: No man's land protest
From: GUEST,raymond greenoaken
Date: 10 Nov 14 - 05:11 AM

Mrs PFR carries the day! Now—what else is new?


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Subject: RE: No man's land protest
From: GUEST,Derek Schofield
Date: 10 Nov 14 - 05:53 AM

Whilst collecting my Guardian from the newsagents this morning, I noticed that the full page Mirror headline states that the BBC has refused to add Joss Stone's song to its play list .... perhaps Mirror journalists read Mudcat?
Derek


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Subject: RE: No man's land protest
From: GUEST,Fred McCormick
Date: 10 Nov 14 - 06:16 AM

According the DM, the BBC is not playing the song, but for precisely what reasons is not said. I'd be happy if the BBC DJs refused to handle it on the grounds of taste or whatever. But somehow I doubt it.

Anyway, now we know. Derek Schofield reads the Guardian, and buys it from his local newsagents.


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Subject: RE: No man's land protest
From: Bonzo3legs
Date: 10 Nov 14 - 06:17 AM

I have listened to the Bogle version which I dislike intensly, thank godness for the Joss Stone & Jeff Beck version.


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Subject: RE: No man's land protest
From: GUEST,henryp
Date: 10 Nov 14 - 06:41 AM

But without the Bogle version, there wouldn't have been a Beck/Stone version.

Still, it's given most of the song a much wider audience.


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Subject: RE: No man's land protest
From: GUEST,Jon Heslop
Date: 10 Nov 14 - 07:55 AM

It's an insult! An insult to the writer, an insult to the listener and most of all, an insult to the millions of war dead of every nation.
We have to ask why the producer, the artists and the whole marketing/publicity machine allowed it to be released in this form?
I suspect the answer lies in making an acceptable "product" that will not upset people or politicians who don't want to be reminded of the fact that since the outbreak of the Crimean War, Britain has been continually involved in bloodshed somewhere in the world.
To quote historian A.J.P. Taylor,
"The purpose of political activity is to provide peace and prosperity; and in this every statesman failed for whatever reason." (The origins of the Second World War)
So to airbrush out the last verse, the whole reason for the song, because it does not align with current political dogma is an insult. Whether poltiticians, the makers of war, like it or not it has happened "again and again and again and again" and still is.
Perhaps any government contemplating war should take time out to visit the huge British and Commonwealth war cemetary at Tyn Cot near Ypres and the nearly as huge German one at Langermark nearby. Then visit the D-Day and Normandy cemetaries, British, Commonwealth US and German, (Most poignant is the Polish one just of the road between Caen and Falaise)and then decide.
Sorry, I've digressed a bit but the whole thing makes me angry.


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