I just discovered something!

Subject: I just discovered something!
From: Matt_R
Date: 15 Jun 05 - 02:13 PM

Is it just me, or is the tune from Pentangle's "Lord Franklin" the same as Bob Dylan's "Bob Dylan's Dream"?

Subject: RE: I just discovered something!
From: GUEST
Date: 15 Jun 05 - 02:20 PM

LH? What say you? did Pentangle rip off Dylan? (We know it couldn't possibly be the other way around!)

Subject: RE: I just discovered something!
From: GUEST,Allen
Date: 15 Jun 05 - 02:34 PM

Bob Dylan took Martin Carthy's arrangement (does credit him in the liner notes tho) of Lord Franklin and set his own words to it.

Subject: RE: I just discovered something!
From: GUEST,Bob Dylan's Dream Lover
Date: 15 Jun 05 - 02:38 PM

And Pete Seeger took Woody Guthrie's version of You've Got To Walk That Lonesome Valley, which Woody learned from a Carter Family record, and worote Quite Early Morning.

Subject: RE: I just discovered something!
From: Joe Offer
Date: 15 Jun 05 - 02:39 PM

I guess that Dylan has one up on Paul Simon then. I don't know that Paul Simon ever gave anybody credit for the tunes he stole.

This thread probably has the most complete discussion of the tune, which is most probably much older than "Franklin."

-Joe Offer-

Subject: RE: I just discovered something!
From: Peace
Date: 15 Jun 05 - 02:41 PM

I read this somewhere--I think here, possibly from Kendall:

I have had this axe for fifty years. It's had three new handles and two new heads.

Subject: RE: I just discovered something!
From: GUEST,The Ghost of Tom Joad
Date: 15 Jun 05 - 02:45 PM

Woody Guthrie took John Hardy Was A Desperate Little Man from the Carter Family and wrote Tom Joad with characters and a plot that he took from the movie version of The Grapes of Wrath that was taken from the book that was written by John Steinbeck.

And now Johnny Irion, the great-nephew of John Steinbeck, is married to Sarah Lee Guthrie, the granddaughter of Woody Guthrie, who was a friend of Pete Seeger who knows both Martin Carthy and Bob Dylan personally.

Small world, ain't it?

Subject: RE: I just discovered something!
From: Peace
Date: 15 Jun 05 - 03:08 PM

Sure is. A, B, AB and O--negative or positive. Like, how small is THAT for 6,000,000,000 people.

Subject: RE: I just discovered something!
From: GUEST,Fullerton
Date: 15 Jun 05 - 03:11 PM

Small world - but I wouldn't want to paint it.

Subject: RE: I just discovered something!
From: open mike
Date: 15 Jun 05 - 04:39 PM

funny, isn't it FULLER paints that
has a logo of paint pouring over the planet?

cover the earth or something is/was their motto?

any relation?

Subject: RE: I just discovered something!
From: GUEST,Songster Bob
Date: 15 Jun 05 - 05:17 PM

Woody said, of 'Tom Joad,' "I wanted all the people to know this story, but the book is $2.00 and the movie is 10 cents, and the folks I want to know the story ain't even got 10 cents, so I wrote the song, 'cause singing it is free."

Or words to that effect.

Bob

Subject: RE: I just discovered something!
From: PoppaGator
Date: 15 Jun 05 - 06:45 PM

Many of The Bob's earliest songwriting efforts were very transparent variations on traditional songs, very much like "Bob Dylan's Dream / Lord Franklin." In most of these cases, I was thoroughly familiar with the Dylan song many years before realizing that the traditional antecedent even existed.

For starters, consider two with nearly-identical titles, "Farewell" and "Restless Farewell."

"Farewell" is a reworking of "Leaving of Liverpool," both of which include the line "Fare thee well, my own true love," plus a lot of closely-associated business about leaving/departure, Californ-eye-aye, what's grieving me, writing letters back home, etc. etc.

"Restless Farewell" is a similar elaboration upon "Parting Glass," where the melody is just about identical to the original while the lyrics are original but highly derivative.

When he first arrived in New York, young Bobby hung out with the Clancy Brothers and apparently learned many of these traditional Celtic and/or British songs from them. In the 25th anniversary concert video, one of the brothers is being interviewed; he recalls Bob running up to him once, all excited, bragging "I just wrote a new song on "Brennan on the Moor."

That would be, I believe, "Ramblin' Gamblin' Willie" (not absolutely sure of the title) ~ "Ride Willie Ride, Go Willie Go, Wherever it is you're ramblin now, Nobody knows."

Subject: RE: I just discovered something!
From: kendall
Date: 15 Jun 05 - 06:48 PM

Did anyone see Dylan on 60 Minutes last Sunday? He looked like a washed up gambler, and he had a hard time remembering what the interviewer said. Really spaced out.

Subject: RE: I just discovered something!
From: number 6
Date: 15 Jun 05 - 11:05 PM

I'm still wondering about Molly Malone and the Streets of Loredo .. let alone Pentangle's "Lord Franklin" and Mr' D's "Dream" !!

sIx

Subject: RE: I just discovered something!
From: DonMeixner
Date: 16 Jun 05 - 12:44 AM

Far as I know Molly Malone never walked down the Streets of Laredo.

Don

Subject: RE: I just discovered something!
From: PoppaGator
Date: 16 Jun 05 - 12:32 PM

"Streets of Laredo" and "St. James Infirmary" are closely related, sharing the same old-world antecedents. Here's an interesting article on this topic from this week's New Orleans Gambit Weekly:

http://www.bestofneworleans.com/dispatch/current/cover_story.php

(This link, of course, will probably expire at some point. Posted, and currently avialable, on June 16, 2005.)

Subject: RE: I just discovered something!
From: GUEST,Allen
Date: 16 Jun 05 - 01:34 PM

Streets of Laredo and St James Infirmary both can trace their routes to the Unfortunate Rake or the Sailor (Lass) Cut Down in His/Her Prime.
There are several extensive threads in the DT.

Subject: RE: I just discovered something!
From: Fidjit
Date: 16 Jun 05 - 02:29 PM

Nice to see you are all catching up with the "rip-offs". Never was a Bob fan. Made a lot of money though. I however, sing the Dr Hook/Shel Silverstiens, "Everybody's Making It Big But Me"

Subject: RE: I just discovered something!
From: PoppaGator
Date: 16 Jun 05 - 04:59 PM

Hey Fidjit ~ recognizing the sources/antecedents of those early Dylan songs does not make me any less a fan of his.

Many folksingers, including thousands of the nameless forgotten ones who have preserved our various traditions over the centuries, have adapted and reworked songs older than themselves. In many cases (we'll never know which ones or how many of 'em), the new version probably took hold and the old version disappeared. Of course, this is all before copyrights, publishing, and other financial factors became involved.

Bob's "rip-offs" were a very natural way for him to get started as a songwriter. Nobody ~ himself included ~ could have known the unprecendented riches that were just around the corner for him. His good fortune has to be seen as the result of good luck and good timing, in combination with a very unique talent ~ he didn't get undeservedly rich just because he claimed credit for a few old folk melodies.

But hey, a lot of this discussion comes down to a simple matter of personal taste, and if you don't like Bob's stuff, that's OK with me.

Subject: RE: I just discovered something!
From: number 6
Date: 16 Jun 05 - 11:07 PM

What the hell was I thinking when I posted Molly Malone and the Streets of Loredo ?!?!?!

But then again ... there is a slight similiarity in the melody.

sIx

Subject: RE: I just discovered something!
From: GUEST,Sylverdollar
Date: 16 Jun 05 - 11:55 PM

How about "Streets of Laredo" and "The Bard of Armaugh".

Subject: RE: I just discovered something!
From: Wolfgang
Date: 17 Jun 05 - 04:14 PM

"I just discovered...."
I know that feeling. When I just had discovered that 'Seasons of the sun' was but the corrupted English version of 'Adieu Emile' everybody else seemed to know that already.

Wolfgang

Subject: RE: I just discovered something!
From: Wolfgang
Date: 17 Jun 05 - 04:25 PM

"I just discovered...."
I know that feeling. When I just had discovered that 'Seasons of the sun' was but the corrupted English version of 'Adieu Emile' everybody else seemed to know that already.

Wolfgang

Subject: RE: I just discovered something!
From: Fidjit
Date: 18 Jun 05 - 02:38 PM

Come on Popagator, We all nick fings. I hear a good song I want to sing it too. Enjoy.

Subject: RE: I just discovered something!
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 18 Jun 05 - 07:53 PM

and Hunting the Snark is really about finding the G-spot......

Subject: RE: I just discovered something!
From: Le Scaramouche
Date: 19 Jun 05 - 04:27 AM

Suuure it is.

Subject: RE: I just discovered something!
From: GUEST,Tunesmith
Date: 19 Jun 05 - 05:11 AM

Interestingly, I think only an American ( i.e. Dylan )could have borrowed so many British/Irish tunes and written new words. I feel that, had a British folksinger done the same, they would have been critised for messing around with the tradition. Although, I realise, of course, that there is a tradition for " borrowing" folktunes and writing a different set of lyrics - many hymn composers have done this.

Subject: RE: I just discovered something!
From: number 6
Date: 19 Jun 05 - 08:12 AM

It is ???