BS: Henry Louis Gates arrested - profiling

Subject: RE: BS: Henry Louis Gates arrested - profiling
From: John Hardly
Date: 26 Jul 09 - 09:36 AM

"...Gates, for his own self-aggrandizement, was willing to destroy a man's career and turn him into a national pariah? "

And the President of the United States joined him in the attempted destruction and has yet to apologize for that.

Subject: RE: BS: Henry Louis Gates arrested - profiling
From: heric
Date: 26 Jul 09 - 11:23 AM

No, he was just drawn to the puff of smoke as we all were.

Subject: RE: BS: Henry Louis Gates arrested - profiling
From: heric
Date: 26 Jul 09 - 11:52 AM

. . and he can't apologize for his comment yet, other than its prematurity, because it may have been correct. If he comes down on Crowley's side now he would be making the same mistake twice. He'll finesse this.

Subject: RE: BS: Henry Louis Gates arrested - profiling
From: Peace
Date: 26 Jul 09 - 12:08 PM

Politicians do not apologize. They clarify previous remarks.

Subject: RE: BS: Henry Louis Gates arrested - profiling
From: heric
Date: 26 Jul 09 - 12:13 PM

Hey Bruce, I'll have a beer by myself anytime, so here's a toast to you.

Subject: RE: BS: Henry Louis Gates arrested - profiling
From: Peace
Date: 26 Jul 09 - 12:25 PM

And to you.

I seldom drink beer, so you'll have to have another for me, OK? Not that I never HAVE had any beer. Au contraire. I don't mind a glass or two when I wake up, and another with breakfast is ok. Then one or two afterwards to settle the food. Perhaps a few pints before lunch and the maybe a quart to settle the old tummy. Mid-afternoon seems like a good time for a few leading to the pre-dinner (what I call supper) sampling of various brews. A nice cool lager or stout with dinner and perhaps some room-temperature ale before sunset. With the downing of the sun one might enjoy some ice-cold Kokanee with maybe some lime or lemon. Then a six-pack before watching the stars at night. BUT, this damned sip-sip-sipping all the time has GOT to stop.

Subject: RE: BS: Henry Louis Gates arrested - profiling
From: heric
Date: 26 Jul 09 - 12:34 PM

OKAY then here's a toast to Professor Gates and "teaching moments"! ~braaAP~

Subject: RE: BS: Henry Louis Gates arrested - profiling
From: Peace
Date: 26 Jul 09 - 01:09 PM

Indeed.

Subject: RE: BS: Henry Louis Gates arrested - profiling
From: Little Hawk
Date: 26 Jul 09 - 01:16 PM

"Politicians do not apologize. They clarify previous remarks."

Ha! Ain't it the truth, Peace? ;-) Obama's a bit unusual though, because he actually does apologize for things he has said or done now and then. It's extraordinary that he would, but he does.

I think the same thing though as heric, who said: "No, he was just drawn to the puff of smoke as we all were."

Anyone's first reaction to a man being arrested by cops at his own house on a house-breaking check would be: "Geez! What idiots those cops must have been!"

It was the kind of story where you will immediately form that conclusion on the first hearing. Obama got caught, in my opinion, the same way any of us would have been...including John Hardly. ;-) You betcha! (to quote Sarah Palin)

Now you add to that, that Gates is a personal friend of Obama's and a man whom Obama knows and respects...and hey, is it at all surprising that Obama would have figured the cops were in the wrong?

Is it? Ask yourself that, for heaven's sake. Anyone in Obama's position would have intially figured that the cops must have been in the wrong.

It's a tempest in a teapot. Tempest in a teapot. Tempest in a teapot. You'd have made the same mistake, John, if you'd been Obama. Forget about it and get on with something that actually matters.

Subject: RE: BS: Henry Louis Gates arrested - profiling
From: meself
Date: 26 Jul 09 - 01:34 PM

Obama's mistake was not what he thought; it was running off his mouth about it. That struck me as an uncharacteristic slip-up on his part, and I imagine it will be a long while before he makes a blunder like that again.

Subject: RE: BS: Henry Louis Gates arrested - profiling
From: Little Hawk
Date: 26 Jul 09 - 01:53 PM

Yeah, he jumped to an incorrect conclusion.

Subject: RE: BS: Henry Louis Gates arrested - profiling
From: meself
Date: 26 Jul 09 - 01:56 PM

Well, whether his conlusion was correct or incorrect, my point is that he should have kept quiet about it; it wasn't for him to jump into the matter.

Subject: RE: BS: Henry Louis Gates arrested - profiling
From: Little Hawk
Date: 26 Jul 09 - 01:58 PM

Absolutely.

Subject: RE: BS: Henry Louis Gates arrested - profiling
From: John Hardly
Date: 26 Jul 09 - 04:03 PM

I might be Obama. It's a complicated physics project I've been working on.

Subject: RE: BS: Henry Louis Gates arrested - profiling
From: mg
Date: 26 Jul 09 - 04:34 PM

I wouldn't necessarily think the cops were stupid. They have been around a long enough time to see various people impersonating others and being afraid to talk etc.

I had a phone that malfunctioned and somehow the police were summoned. We called them right back and said there was no problem -- that some button had been pushed on a phone that someone else had preset and there was no disturbance.

Well, several minutes later they came anyway. They took both me and my roommate aside and asked both of us separately if there was any problem. Nope. We showed them the phone.

At another place I lived recently, where there is a huge amount of meth, the police banged on my door...I opened the door because I could see flashing lights etc..lots and lots of police on my doorstep. They asked if they could look for someone I had never heard of and I let them in...I can see how it would be scary to many people, and I realize I am of an age and gender and yes, ethnicity, that makes me a low target of police suspicion, but I do believe I should take my turn with police interactions.

For some reason, mostly when I was younger, I hit some profile with Canadian immigration. I would be pulled off buses, once I was not allowed to enter on my way to Newfoundland because I had too much money with me...no..I think I had to cancel the trip to Newfoundland which is why I hadt he money and decided to just have a nice long weekend in BC...everyone else in line could be dressed like a gangster might perhaps dress and I dressed like Anne of Green Gables and would still get hauled off the bus, out of cars etc...who knows...mg

Subject: RE: BS: Henry Louis Gates arrested - profiling
From: Maryrrf
Date: 26 Jul 09 - 06:11 PM

Tempest in a teapot sums it up nicely.

Subject: RE: BS: Henry Louis Gates arrested - profiling
From: Little Hawk
Date: 26 Jul 09 - 06:38 PM

Well, John, if you are Obama, I think you need to sit down, have a beer with yourself, shake your own hand with your other hand, and forgive yourself for those various little past errors in judgement. ;-)

Subject: RE: BS: Henry Louis Gates arrested - profiling
From: heric
Date: 26 Jul 09 - 06:40 PM

Oh I'm sorry I thought it was Gates who first called the drink-up a "teaching moment." I see that it was Obama.

"My hope is that as a consequence of this event, this ends up being what's called a teachable moment, where all of us, instead of pumping up the volume, spend a little more time listening to each other ... and that instead of flinging accusations, we can all be a little more reflective in terms of what we can do to contribute to more unity."

Subject: RE: BS: Henry Louis Gates arrested - profiling
From: Little Hawk
Date: 26 Jul 09 - 06:52 PM

Sounds like a good plan. (smile) If they all took a little time to find out exactly what the other guy was thinking, and feeling...and why...then they might find they got along better. Obama is on the right track to say what he did. And he also, of course, has to somehow bring this thing to a positive resolution so he can get on with something that actually matters. I wish him the best of luck in that.

Subject: RE: BS: Henry Louis Gates arrested - profiling
From: Bill H //\\
Date: 26 Jul 09 - 07:13 PM

why o why is profiling the first thing on everyone's mind---especially Gates. Police called to a possible break-in and question the person there---not profiling in my book. Only Prof. Gates.

Cop stops you while walking in the "wrong" neighborhood--that's profiling. Answering a call for a possible burglary is protecting people---and, as I said, earlier, how is the officer to know that there is not someone else in the house or that the ID was not stolen from a victim.   Step outside--explain the situation---best way to go. But, according to reports that was not the intelluctual's reaction---frankly, sounds more like a confrontation that the prof. resented due to economic and intellectual differences and now hangs his hat on "racism" or "profiling"---we await the arrival of Al Sharpton and Jesse Jackson to add some more kindling to the event.

It is, however, sad that the Pres. got himself involved when all he had to say to the reporter's legitimate question is that he needs to ascertain the facts of what happened and that it is not a critical world situation for me to deal with.

Bill Hahn

Subject: RE: BS: Henry Louis Gates arrested - profiling
From: Q (Frank Staplin)
Date: 26 Jul 09 - 07:26 PM

Looking at the repeat posts. Too many to count. How many ways can the same thing be said?

Waltz me around again, Willie,
Around, around, and around.....

Subject: RE: BS: Henry Louis Gates arrested - profiling
From: Riginslinger
Date: 26 Jul 09 - 11:59 PM

Hillary is blaming the whole thing on testosterone!

Subject: RE: BS: Henry Louis Gates arrested - profiling
From: meself
Date: 27 Jul 09 - 12:19 AM

Are you implying that she's incorrect?

Subject: RE: BS: Henry Louis Gates arrested - profiling
From: Little Hawk
Date: 27 Jul 09 - 12:39 AM

That sounds about right to me. ;-)

Subject: RE: BS: Henry Louis Gates arrested - profiling
From: fretless
Date: 27 Jul 09 - 01:52 PM

Just off the ticker. And if one part of the police report is being questioned, where does that leave the rest of it?

.............
(CNN) -- The woman who made the 911 call that led to the arrest of Harvard professor Henry Louis Gates Jr. never referred to race when she contacted authorities for what she thought was a potential break-in, her attorney told CNN on Monday.
Attorney Wendy Murphy also categorically rejected part of the police report that said her client, Lucia Whalen, talked with Sgt. James Crowley, the arresting officer, at the scene.
"Let me be clear: She never had a conversation with Sgt. Crowley at the scene," Murphy said. "And she never said to any police officer or to anybody 'two black men.' She never used the word 'black.' Period."
She added, "I'm not sure what the police explanation will be. Frankly, I don't care. Her only goal is to make it clear she never described them as black. She never saw their race. ... All she reported was behavior, not skin color."
Calls to the Cambridge Police Department about the issue have not been returned. In the police report, filed by Crowley, he says he spoke with Whalen outside the home before he approached Gates' house.
"She went on to tell me that she observed what appeared to be two black males with backpacks on the porch of Ware Street," the report says. "She told me that her suspicions were aroused when she observed one of the men wedging his shoulder into the door as if he was trying to force entry."
Murphy's comments add yet another layer of intrigue to the July 16 arrest that has prompted heated discussion across the nation on race relations in America.
Murphy also disputed accounts of her client as a white woman in the traditional sense. "The fact is she's olive-skinned and of Portuguese descent. You wouldn't look at her and say necessarily, 'Oh, there's a white woman.' You might think she was Hispanic," Murphy said.

Subject: RE: BS: Henry Louis Gates arrested - profiling
From: Maryrrf
Date: 27 Jul 09 - 04:37 PM

Why does the neighbor who called the police need a lawyer??? She did nothing wrong. Even if she had mentioned the race of the people she saw trying to enter the house, it would have been a natural thing to do to describe the suspects. And what does her race, whether she was olive skinned or not, etc. have to do with anything ????

Subject: RE: BS: Henry Louis Gates arrested - profiling
From: Little Hawk
Date: 27 Jul 09 - 06:11 PM

Yes, when you are making a report to the police it's natural (and also expected) that you should describe any observable features of the suspects...including their skin color. It is not a racist action to describe a "Black man" as a "Black man", for heaven's sake, nor should it be taken so, and it's not "profiling" either.

Subject: RE: BS: Henry Louis Gates arrested - profiling
From: heric
Date: 27 Jul 09 - 06:21 PM

Gates said that the description given to Gates of "two large black men" is "the worst case of racial profiling [he] has ever seen in [his] life," even after decades of studying the subject. He says that he is not large. Furthermore, even though his chauffer is black, you wouldn't be able so see that from down the street – just that he had black hair.

Strange, though, that Crowley recalls and describes a ~very~ specific conversation with the neighbor and she says she never spoke with him at all. (Wrong neighbor . . ?)

Subject: RE: BS: Henry Louis Gates arrested - profiling
From: heric
Date: 27 Jul 09 - 06:23 PM

. . . description given to Crowley . . .

Subject: RE: BS: Henry Louis Gates arrested - profiling
From: Little Hawk
Date: 27 Jul 09 - 06:39 PM

"Large" is a relative term...and it depends upon the (visual) viewpoint of the person using it. You say she was too far away to say that the chauffer was black??? Say what? How far away do you have to be for that, and will it also then impair your ability to determine the relative size of someone who is attempting to force open a door? ;-)

Sounds to me more like Gates was expecting what he was expecting...to be treated in a racist manner by some white people...regardless of whether that was really the case or not. Those who are determined to be deeply offended in some fashion are seldom disappointed in their negative expectations.

The smart thing to do, in any case, is remain calm and cooperative with investigating police officers, not start yelling at them and getting all high-handed about how you are someone "important" who is going to get them into a shitload of trouble for daring to question you.

Subject: RE: BS: Henry Louis Gates arrested - profiling
From: heric
Date: 27 Jul 09 - 06:43 PM

(I don't say. Gates says.)

Subject: RE: BS: Henry Louis Gates arrested - profiling
From: GUEST,fretless
Date: 27 Jul 09 - 06:47 PM

Gates, by the way, is quite short -- under stress people of course will describe what they think they see, but it is still hard to imagine him being accurately described as a "large" man, black or otherwise.

Subject: RE: BS: Henry Louis Gates arrested - profiling
From: meself
Date: 27 Jul 09 - 07:04 PM

The needle has just moved from "Overblown" to "Utterly Ridiculous".

Subject: RE: BS: Henry Louis Gates arrested - profiling
From: Bobert
Date: 27 Jul 09 - 08:48 PM

What next???

A constitutional ammendment??? Impeachment???

When will all the petty politics end???

I mean, here you have a Republican Congressamn introducing a bill into Congress that would force Obama to apologize??? Is this a joke, 'er what???

Come on, ya'll... This shit is way out of hand...

B~

Subject: RE: BS: Henry Louis Gates arrested - profiling
From: olddude
Date: 27 Jul 09 - 09:04 PM

Only in America can such stupid leaders exist to the extent that we have

Subject: RE: BS: Henry Louis Gates arrested - profiling
From: Riginslinger
Date: 27 Jul 09 - 09:25 PM

"Gates, by the way, is quite short..."

          Suffers from "Little Man Syndrome," I suspect.

Subject: RE: BS: Henry Louis Gates arrested - profiling
From: Peace
Date: 27 Jul 09 - 09:33 PM

The difference between genius and stupidity is that genius has limits.

Subject: RE: BS: Henry Louis Gates arrested - profiling
From: meself
Date: 27 Jul 09 - 09:39 PM

What I want to know is - why haven't we been informed as to the body-type of the 911 dispatcher? I suspect a cover-up.

Subject: RE: BS: Henry Louis Gates arrested - profiling
From: Peace
Date: 27 Jul 09 - 09:43 PM

The tape could be requested by the court. All calls are recorded.

Subject: RE: BS: Henry Louis Gates arrested - profiling
From: Donuel
Date: 27 Jul 09 - 09:53 PM

The first question the officer asked was for "the suspect" to step outside of the house. You see he needs a warrant to go in or drag him out. But unless "the supsect" steps outside the house, the officer can not go in unless invited (sorta like the vampire lore)

Police do this to motorists as well. Without a warrant they try to gaod people into searching their trunk. If you agree they can put whatever they want in your trunk.

The disturbing the peace charge can be whatever the police want it to be.

Gates should know by now that no one REALISTICLY have Constitutional rights until after the fact. To have them in retrospect you must first survive police encounters and comply with their demand for respect and authority. If you don't suck up to their ego - you fucked up.

Don't forget...

There is a reason why these guys wanted to be cops.



BTW Obama said both sides acted stupidly, but that has been lost in the rasist media bloosport that passes for journalism these days.

Chronkite used to say that people should get the news they need, not the news they want.

Subject: RE: BS: Henry Louis Gates arrested - profiling
From: robomatic
Date: 27 Jul 09 - 09:59 PM

In my first post to this thread I believe I came down on the neighbor even used a medium non-nice adjective. I wish to backpedal HARD on that. I read in the NYT they released the call she made and she couldn't have been more precise. She said clearly that the people gaining entry could be homeowners, she wasn't sure. She did not refer to race of her own volition, the dispatcher asked her for more information.
I now am inclined to believe the caller was an ideal neighbor and did absolutely nothing to be critical of. I retract anything in the least critical about her.

Subject: RE: BS: Henry Louis Gates arrested - profiling
From: Donuel
Date: 27 Jul 09 - 10:06 PM

old dude, only in America...?

Well to be fair there are militia crooks all over Africa and drug cartel militias all over South America.
Their leaders survive on the corrupt status quo.


Pretty much all wars have a foundation of racism and ethnic superiority ideology.

Check out the documentary "War of the Worlds - a view of WW1 WW2 and the Cold War.

Subject: RE: BS: Henry Louis Gates arrested - profiling
From: Peace
Date: 27 Jul 09 - 10:07 PM

You always did have lots of class, Robomatic.

Subject: RE: BS: Henry Louis Gates arrested - profiling
From: heric
Date: 27 Jul 09 - 10:10 PM

In my first I spoke in an extremely biased and prejudicial fashion against the police. I'll probably be apologizing. We'll see.

Subject: RE: BS: Henry Louis Gates arrested - profiling
From: robomatic
Date: 27 Jul 09 - 10:14 PM

Ah, Bruce, many wouldn't agree with you, but thanks!

Subject: RE: BS: Henry Louis Gates arrested - profiling
From: Little Hawk
Date: 28 Jul 09 - 12:02 AM

I think you make several very good points in your post, Donuel. Yes, cops are in a very powerful position vis-a-vis anyone they decide to question, and they have their ways of taking advantage, as you suggest....and, yes, you DO have to suck up to them and be a "nice guy" or you're giving them a golden opportunity to give you a whole lot of trouble...specially if they already don't like you for some reason.

So you need to stay cool.

It's certainly something that was always on my mind when encountering police officers who stopped me for any reason whatsoever. (sometimes they stopped me just because I apparently fit their profile of a "long-haired young guy who might be...hell, probably is...a drug user") Was I scared? Yeah. Definitely. But I stayed cool.

Gates didn't stay cool. That may have been for a number of fairly obvious reasons since he was already tired and frustrated, but that was the mistake he made.

As to what Obama said...yesh...both sides probably did act stupidly.

Subject: RE: BS: Henry Louis Gates arrested - profiling
From: Ron Davies
Date: 28 Jul 09 - 12:33 AM

One of uncounted numbers of ironies in this situation is that Sgt. Crowley's behavior was absolutely perfect, in contrast to that of Prof. Gates--until the arrest.

But no matter how you slice it, Gates' bad behavior--I heard he was auditioning for a new reality show "Professors Behaving Badly"---did not rise to the level of a criminal offense.   There was no justification for the arrest.

And it does therefore support those who like to read racism into any clash between a white policeman and a black person--though in this case it's unlikely.   Therefore it was stupid, as President Obama says.

Subject: RE: BS: Henry Louis Gates arrested - profiling
From: heric
Date: 28 Jul 09 - 01:51 AM

Isn't it bizarre, Ron, with 10,000+ articles showing this Gates thing at any given time on google, that the experts aren't telling us how this works. For all I know, the standard of proof might be different in Gates' wrongful arrest case than it would be in an administrative proceeding to determine whether Crowley can be punished. It could be that Gates has to prove he had a legitimate purpose other than causing annoyance or alarm. It could be that someone has to establish that Crowley did not reasonably believe that Gates had any purpose other than to cause annoyance or alarm. The standard might even be that no reasonable officer could have believed that Gates was without legitimate purpose and only wanted to cause annoyance or alarm. And with a close reading of the statute (if the anonymous commenter gave us the right one), it doesn't even require that there be any actual risk of public alarm - only the "purpose" underlying the tumultuous behavior is the question.

Subject: RE: BS: Henry Louis Gates arrested - profiling
From: Ron Davies
Date: 28 Jul 09 - 08:32 AM

It's a matter of interpretation.   And of free speech.   And as the quote pointed out--I got mine from Slate, and the anonymous blogger seems to have used the same quote but not given attribution--that there is absolutely no question that accusations of racism, which was --- and is, and ever shall be, world without end--the main theme of Professor Gates--are protected free speech.

It would be interesting to know for sure whether cursing out a policeman would be covered free speech--but that is totally immaterial to this case, since Gates did nothing of the kind.

I also found out something else I didn't know about Professor Gates:   it's unlikely he will ever have any financial problems again--he sold for $10 million a a web-based company he started. (Source:   WSJ 25 July 2009).

I wonder if "Professors Behaving Badly"   would get good ratings.   I might even watch it.

Subject: RE: BS: Henry Louis Gates arrested - profiling
From: Leadfingers
Date: 28 Jul 09 - 08:49 AM

200