the uk folk revival in 2019

Subject: RE: the uk folk revival in 2019
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 07 Oct 19 - 07:28 AM

Don't knoww about oyr world Warwick - neither of your weer mine
"our versions of folk" arose from teh one that had always existed
That will never die - hopefully
You can't change the history of the culture of the people like a pair of socks -
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: the uk folk revival in 2019
From: Vic Smith
Date: 07 Oct 19 - 07:50 AM

At 04 Oct 19 - 07:12 AM        GUEST,henryp - wrote
Vic Lewis; "with the constant worry of that debt hanging over her."

I come back exhausted from a very busy but very satisfying programme at a weekend folk festival where virtually everything that I heard, saw, sung or played was traditional dance, song or tunes.... only to find that my name has been changed!

Subject: RE: the uk folk revival in 2019
From: GUEST,Starship
Date: 07 Oct 19 - 07:56 AM

Could be worse, Vic Smith. When I was seven my parents sent me to the store for milk, and when I got back they'd moved.

Subject: RE: the uk folk revival in 2019
From: GUEST,matt milton
Date: 07 Oct 19 - 08:28 AM

perhaps a subconscious reference to journalist, prankster and TV producer Victor Lewis-Smith?

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Victor_Lewis-Smith

Subject: RE: the uk folk revival in 2019
From: GUEST
Date: 07 Oct 19 - 09:25 AM

If there is a working class in 2019, their music is not grunge,nor hiphop nor heavy metal- it's C & W or R & B or modern day crooners- they don't have any interest in politics of any kind (excluding Brexit).

Thats why they buy tabloid newspapers rather than what's good for them (who decides that, by the way?)

Subject: RE: the uk folk revival in 2019
From: GUEST,Hootenanny
Date: 07 Oct 19 - 09:30 AM

Vic Lewis was a musician and led a dance band way back in the days of my youth and real dance bands, I moved around to his band on one or two occasions.

Subject: RE: the uk folk revival in 2019
From: GUEST,HiLo
Date: 07 Oct 19 - 09:49 AM

Well, Guest, that IS a sweeping statement, but not unexpected here. You just had a Hillary Clinton moment, did you not.
The tastes of the "working class' are as varied and sophisticated as those of any other group. They are not, as you seem to think, a homogeneous bunch of cretins.

Subject: RE: the uk folk revival in 2019
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 07 Oct 19 - 09:58 AM

"If there is a working class in 2019,"
In modern Britain, they tend to be 'the Unemployed class' but the massive increase in the gap between haves and have-nots have made permanent the class structure of Britain - go check it out
When we used to be participants rather than passive recipients of our entertainment/ culture the folk scene was largely made up of working lads and lasses - I hope that hasn't changed too much
After all, our folk songs were made fro working people about working people
Have to say, I find your generalisations a little patronising, guest
In theis wold run by educated idiots, some of the working people I know and have known could out-think and out-reason the Trumps and Johnsons of this world hands down before breakfast
Education has nothing to do with intelligence and opportunity is everything
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: the uk folk revival in 2019
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 07 Oct 19 - 10:00 AM

Cross-posted Hilo - that's what I should have said
Jim

Subject: RE: the uk folk revival in 2019
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 07 Oct 19 - 11:32 AM

well i seem to have caught up with the working classes of the 1960's. Now I'm going to folk clubs in a clapped out car and a Chinese guitar...

Subject: RE: the uk folk revival in 2019
From: WalkaboutsVerse
Date: 07 Oct 19 - 12:07 PM

"the right wing nationalists" Dave...so if someone does not like capitalism NOR economic/CAPITALIST immigration but they do love our world/our UN being multicultural, including their own folk music, would you say they are "left wing nationalists"?...and, given that, are you sure, Jim, that Ewan MacColl would not be among the latter?

Traditions exist because folks have been impressed by THEIR OWN forebears way of doing things - against which is the relentless promotion by government and media here now of internal ethnic diversity (not that long ago "assimilation" was the go - remember?).

Modern England and the cargo cults of Papua New Guinea are among the more extreme examples of locals being badly over-impressed by others - say the very basics in broken English, e.g., and you too can be a wealthy "Premier" League manager!

For too many modern English, their idea of culture is going out to support a wealthy world 11, after a night of Indian curry and American pop or rock.

My background - my first job being as an assistant milk vendor, I've worked in factories and offices in Australia and England, travelled on a shoe-string through about 40 countries, and majored in anthropology, including the study of Aboriginal "Land Rights"

"Education has nothing to do with intelligence and opportunity is everything" (Jim Carroll)...I'm a 100% sure that education can change what we believe in and where we end up.

Subject: RE: the uk folk revival in 2019
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 07 Oct 19 - 12:16 PM

No walkabout. I am referring to people who are politically to the right and have nationalistic attitudes. Of which there are plenty on here.

Subject: RE: the uk folk revival in 2019
From: GUEST,HiLo
Date: 07 Oct 19 - 12:25 PM

Could   You explain nationalist for us Dave . Much culture around the world evolves from shared national,erhnic,tribal-or religious commonalities, does it not. is it not folk music of the uk that is Being”revived” ? at least that is what the thread title implies. so , what is this nationalistic attitude you are talking about. you need to define it Dave, before disparaging g it, do you not ?

Subject: RE: the uk folk revival in 2019
From: John MacKenzie
Date: 07 Oct 19 - 12:44 PM

I think the thread title is incomplete, as there is a question mark lacking :)

Subject: RE: the uk folk revival in 2019
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 07 Oct 19 - 12:52 PM

I don't believe I do HiLo. Nationalism is, as far as I am concerned, well explained everywhere. I am using the standard definition which includes supporting your own nation to the detriment of others.

I, for instance, happily support traditional English folk music and dance but not to the detriment or exclusion of others. I am not, therefore, a nationalist.

Subject: RE: the uk folk revival in 2019
From: GUEST,HiLo
Date: 07 Oct 19 - 01:06 PM

Well, Dave it is not well explained by you, is it. Nor do I think it is particularly well explained in some other quarters. The standard definition does not mean supporting your own nation to the detriment of others.
   So, why do you support ENGLISH folk music...But not to the exclusion of all others..Your definition is very odd simply because it is not a definition at all. Music rises from cultures..see my above post.

Subject: RE: the uk folk revival in 2019
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 07 Oct 19 - 01:14 PM

""left wing nationalists"?."
Ewan was an internationalist, as I believe most socialists are, (I certainly am) or at least not hostile to other races or cultures
If you are familiar with 'The Song Carriers' (worth getting to be if you are not) he made a point of showing the similarities of singing internationally using first an Azerbajan singer and Irish singer Paddy Tunney, then a Spanish Canto Hondo singer and Street singer, Margaret Barry
MacColl's take on singing in your own tradition had to do with the fact that British singing Traditions are "word based" rather than musical performances
Having said that, Ewan's finest composed song (IMO), Joy of Living was set to a Sicilian traditional tune
Education-intelligence - the former is the information you receive - the latter is your ability you interpret it      
Let's face it, our world is run by educated morons who have bought their education - I can think fwo world leaders without breaking step
Jim

Subject: RE: the uk folk revival in 2019
From: GUEST,akenaton
Date: 07 Oct 19 - 01:20 PM

"politically to the right with nationalist tendencies" :0). There he goes again! Absolute rubbish, Hilo was 100% correct in his comment.

Subject: RE: the uk folk revival in 2019
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 07 Oct 19 - 01:23 PM

For a long peroids I worked for some of the wealthiest people in London
I remember on my first job I went into a house where they had a line of Degas drawings on the wall which, I was told weer original
They were the ballet sketches which I was familiar with - I tried to discuss them with the owner and all he could tell me was how much they were worth
A common experience was to be gobsmacked by beautifully bound first editions of 1st edition books - go upstairs to do my work and find Jeffry Archer on one bedside table and Jilly Cooper of the other
Those downstairs were for decoration
One of the best bookshops in Cambridge used to sell books by the yard to decorate the rooms of visiting American lecturers
Jim

Subject: RE: the uk folk revival in 2019
From: GUEST,akenaton
Date: 07 Oct 19 - 01:51 PM

I find John's remark about folk music becoming middle class, interesting. I think he has a point, I attended a concert lately....a pretty well known folk singer of whom I had been a friend for quite a few years. The audience was sparse and consisted mainly of a pseudo artistic elite who obviously knew nothing about the music but wished to socialise in an "artistic/cultural" atmosphere. These people are everywhere, middle class liberals, most from an educational or social work background, but with no understanding of life as portrayed by traditional music.   My memories of the revival include groups of young working class kids singing, joking and drinking with their old neighbours and family. Very few of the audience were middle or upper class but strangely quite a few of the performers were.....no matter how hard they tried to hide it.

and just for the record, there is no "working class" anymore, or at least no organised working class.....the political war these days is all about social issues and social views.

Subject: RE: the uk folk revival in 2019
From: GUEST,akenaton
Date: 07 Oct 19 - 03:12 PM

Well Jim there is no doubt that MacColl was a political extremist, but I am more interested in the effect political extremism had on the second revival. You surely cannot deny that political issues drove the later part of the revival, in fact they ultimately drove it completely off the rails.

Subject: RE: the uk folk revival in 2019
From: GUEST,akenaton
Date: 07 Oct 19 - 03:34 PM

Walkabout Verse.....very true and thank you for posting.

Subject: RE: the uk folk revival in 2019
From: WalkaboutsVerse
Date: 07 Oct 19 - 04:00 PM

...what I posted above about romantic classical composers turning to folk to give a nod to nationalism (here is what wiki says on it) relates to the idea that, ideally, the law, the culture and the land of a nation should be closely linked and, in England, e.g., they were much more-so than now, as is reflected in our traditional songs.

Mass economic/CAPITALIST immigration (in the 1950s less than .5% of the population were not born here) is certainly not the only reason for this but it is a major factor, I feel.

Also, I definitely have over the years changed my mind and one or two of my poems from what I've read here on Mudcat, but I sometimes question how much others have..?

Subject: RE: the uk folk revival in 2019
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 08 Oct 19 - 01:38 PM

i never really thought of MacColl as an extremist, Ake. Most communists of that period were a lot less respectful of British institutions and culture.

I don't really know what you're basing it on. I always think of Ewan and Peggy as being polite. Perhaps that was because we had so little in common - and amongst people in their own set, they were more blunt.

Did he say something to you that struck you as extremist? I can't imagine either of them wanting to plant explosives or shed blood.

Their weapons were words and music, and setting an example of creativity.

Subject: RE: the uk folk revival in 2019
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 08 Oct 19 - 01:57 PM

"Well Jim there is no doubt that MacColl was a political extremist, "
I have no intention of spoiling this WBV, but in fact he wasn't
MacColl wrote songs on causes, not party politics - he hadn't been involved with any political movement since 1949 - it's all in Ben Harker's biography
He wrote songs on South Africa, The Peace Movement, Vietnam, poverty, Chile, Cuba, racism, Thatcher, the Miners, Travellers.... none of which can be by the remotest stretch be described as 'Extremist' - not unless you regard a large slice of the civilised world as "Extreme"
He certainly supported some of the the ideas coming out of China for a time, as did many others, but his only song on the subject was a brilliant satire comparing Britain's material values compared to those of Modern as compared to the previous feudal China
I one heard MacColl deliver a blistering attack on China for their supid condemnation of one of his Threatre heroes, Konstantin Stanivlaski
I'm sure if he'd been alive he'd have written a brilliant song about refugees and asylum seekers being forced to wear 'yellow star' type armbands and paint their doors red so the thugs could find were they lived - I'm sure some remember when that was discussed on this forum.
No bloody revolution, no extremism just openly expressed and totally acceptable views - I'm sure some remember when that was discussed on this forum
If MacColl was an extremist, so was Peggey Seeger and her half-brother, Pete, Dick Gaughan, Ed Pickford, Leon Rossleson, Eric Bogle, Hamish Henderson, , Jack Warshaw ..... and all the other dreamers who dreamed of a better world
If that is 'extremism' we live in different worlds and - as I say - have nothing to say to each other

That is all I intend to post on this issue - I fully intend to use the welcome opening of this thread for far more satisfying things

Jim

Subject: RE: the uk folk revival in 2019
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 08 Oct 19 - 02:49 PM

'I here none of the old C and W stuff I cut my teeth on in my youth, yet I thought it would last forever then'

Still in my song bag!

Subject: RE: the uk folk revival in 2019
From: WalkaboutsVerse
Date: 08 Oct 19 - 02:52 PM

In my opinion, and this is one area where, as suggested above, I seem to disagree with Nick Griffin and some in the BNP, genuine asylum seekers should be helped to their nearest (in terms of culture as well as distance) safe country - with the UN playing a stronger role.

I was in China in 1988 and recall a doctor being so keen to leave he asked me if I had a sister, before describing how much he earned compared with a factory worker - I don't recall the amounts but it was not enough/we need some economic inequality so folks have the incentive of an economic ladder to climb and those who do more critical work have a few more creature comforts; but, talk about one extreme to another, China, it seems, now needs a socialist revolution to get rid of the Chinese Capitalist Party and all its billionaires!

My poem, from WAV, "Global Regulationism"

I just have "The Anthology" of EM but, as said, think it's a great folk voice.

Subject: RE: the uk folk revival in 2019
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 08 Oct 19 - 02:56 PM

"Still in my song bag!"
Keep it there Al - the world outgrew it - it's not folk anywaty
Jim

Subject: RE: the uk folk revival in 2019
From: GUEST,akenaton
Date: 08 Oct 19 - 03:39 PM

Hi Al....nice to talk to you again. At the time of the revival all communists were regarded as "extremists" by employers AND the general public.
I got married at the end of the 60's a was rented a house owned by my employer....we had four children under four, and if my political views had been discovered we would have been out on the street.
Communists never got much public support, many hid under the label of "democratic socialist" or just "left wing".
Looking back at MacColl, Pete Seeger and other hero's of the comrades I think how lucky we are to have been rejected. As I said in another thread the trade off between an "organised society" and the faux democracy we enjoy today is too much of a negative.
I still think that we shall end up under a Chinese type of society, which will ensure our survival for afew more decades....but will be no fun at all.

Subject: RE: the uk folk revival in 2019
From: GUEST,akenaton
Date: 08 Oct 19 - 03:53 PM

Sorry Al, I meant to add that many communists were polite, intelligent and extremely law abiding. The man who introduced me to Marx, Pam Dutt, Tressel and other socialist writers was one of the gentlest and kindest people that I have ever encountered. Yet he fought in the East End riots against Moseley. It's like a religion, it never leaves you he used to say...…..thankfully after many years I left it.

Subject: RE: the uk folk revival in 2019
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 08 Oct 19 - 06:46 PM

"Still in my song bag!"
Keep it there Al - the world outgrew it - it's not folk anywaty
Jim

well its not England for the main part behind all these Country Music TV Channels. I think you'd be surprised how well Oh Lonesome me would go down at the next session!

Take it from that Ake you aren't keen on MacColl or Pete Seeger. Got to admit - I thought they were both great. I had nothing but kind words from both guys. Still - you must speak as you find.

But both of them did great things. Pete....there was the songwriting of course - but what I really loved was his banjo version of Blue Skies on the Goofing Off Suite album. And macColl - his songs are still everywhere.

I think its a bit like the the painting of the Mona Lisa - you don't have to be a Christian and subscribe to the belief system that inspired the painter, to appreciate.

Subject: RE: the uk folk revival in 2019
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 08 Oct 19 - 08:24 PM

I'm a bit of an outsider when it comes to this "folk revival" malarkey. I've been involved in mostly Irish traditional music meself, though I'm an aficionado of a goodly number of English/Welsh/Scottish turns. I mean, haven't we been using that "folk revival" term for about fifty years? Dammit, if we haven't revived it by now... And another expression that grates a bit is "folk scene." Let's enjoy what we do and what we love, say I, without resort to these pretentious terms.

I'll definitely get me coat, so don't shoot...

Subject: RE: the uk folk revival in 2019
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 09 Oct 19 - 03:20 AM

"Take it from that Ake you aren't keen on MacColl or Pete Seeger. Got to admit -"
I take it you're still referring to me Al
Take nothing from Ake if you don't want to catch something -
I admired Pete Seeger very much and I was folk-weaned on Ewan and present when he and The Critics Group did the work that could change the fortunes of folk song for the better, if we were allowed to discuss it without all this nonsense
Pat and I spent a fscinating hour or so with Pete, Ewan Peggy and Kirsty one afternoon
Ewan and Peg were recording an album and Pat and I had been asked to help out on the Choruses of 'White Wind' - Ewan's South African epic in their home studio
When we finished, Pete and Toshi walked in on a visit to do a concert
The difference between Ewan and Peg's and Pete's approaches was fascinating too observe
We were also lucky to have met Peggy's father, Charles while we were interviewing Ewan - different again
Jim

Subject: RE: the uk folk revival in 2019
From: GUEST,akenaton
Date: 09 Oct 19 - 03:31 AM

Oh no Al I think Ewan MacColl was a fantastic writer and Pete Seeger not so much, "The First Time" is in my opinion one of the greatest love songs and the Radio Ballads in comparable. The problem was when they began to see the music as a vehicle for political change. I think they failed to realise that there would be any "trade off", and that those like themselves would be the first in line for re-education.

Subject: RE: the uk folk revival in 2019
From: GUEST,akenaton
Date: 09 Oct 19 - 03:44 AM

I would also add that the political direction adopted by people like MacColl did their musical careers no good at all. Who outside the folk scene have much idea who MacColl was or what his writing consisted of?
Extreme politics and popular music don't really mix.

Subject: RE: the uk folk revival in 2019
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 09 Oct 19 - 04:05 AM

Try Ireland Ake
You can here MacColl's songs being busked on the streets - many of them are regarded erroneously as traditional and Irish
The Travellers regard some of them as Traveller's songs and one learned American researcher, Horace Beck, in his ' Folklore of the Sea' referred to 'Shoals of Herring' as typical of the songs sung by Kerry fisherman
The suggestion that any artist should hide their political views for the sake of their careers sums up perfectly everything that has gone wrong with the English Revival - and would of course giv people like the excuse of describing MacColl as a "clandestine extremist communist" which would play ino your hands perfectly
MacColl's honesty and frankness were what made him so many enemies, fair enough - who wants friends who prefer dishonesty and hypocrisy
Jim

Subject: RE: the uk folk revival in 2019
From: GUEST,matt milton
Date: 09 Oct 19 - 05:46 AM

Aligning Ewan MacColl with 'extreme politics' doesn't ring true to me. He was a socialist. I don't recall any 'extreme politics' in his songwriting; as far as I'm aware he never called for anyone to be executed.

There were times when he was supportive of Mao's China and Stalin's Russia: like many on the left in the mid-20th Century, he was unaware of what lay behind those regimes (and like many on the left in the mid-20th Century, perhaps reluctant to face up to it).

Subject: RE: the uk folk revival in 2019
From: GUEST,matt milton
Date: 09 Oct 19 - 05:47 AM

While I like talking about this stuff (see previous post above) it seems daft to be doing so in a thread called 'the uk folk revival in 2019'

Subject: RE: the uk folk revival in 2019
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 09 Oct 19 - 06:17 AM

"Aligning Ewan MacColl with 'extreme politics' doesn't ring true to me."
The constant repetition - (by an proven extremist in his own right) has become a manta - it's chanters have never responded to what has been said here and they have produced no evidence of this accusation
Basically it is being used as a substitute for "I didn't agree with his politics"
Anybody claiming Ewan or any of us) to be extremists were obliged to prove their accusation
Now it' too late - the concentration on politics nearly got this thread closed and it cannot be allowed to happen again
I suggest it should be left there
Jim

Subject: RE: the uk folk revival in 2019
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 09 Oct 19 - 06:20 AM

"'the uk folk revival in 2019'"
I suppose that's right, but it's hard to think of things that haven't been said - often acrimoniously, about what's happening now - we have hardly scratched the surface on the early days
Jim

Subject: RE: the uk folk revival in 2019
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 09 Oct 19 - 06:35 AM

I think I can see what he's driving at.
When Vin Garbut made a big deal about writing an anti abortion song, I think it narrowed his appeal.

70's rockstar Graham Parker also alienated a lot of fans writing a song on a similar theme.

Its the Salman Rushdie phenomenon , isn't it?.. Stand up and be counted and your enemies will be drawing up the firing squad.

Subject: RE: the uk folk revival in 2019
From: GUEST,Observer
Date: 09 Oct 19 - 07:04 AM

The thread Matt is where it is because there is NO 2019 UK Folk revival. The OP is worth a visit by all who wish to comment. You would then discover that the thrust of it was that youngsters coming out of traditional music courses in UK Universities are failing to set up folk clubs to provide artists with paying gigs.

That a learned American researcher thinks of "Shoals of Herring" as being typical of the songs sung by Kerry fisherman doesn't surprise me, I mean the words fit so well don't they!

"Oh it was a fair and a pleasant day
Out of YARMOUTH harbour I was faring" - East Anglia

"Well we fished the Swarte and the Broken Bank" - both famous herring fishing areas in the North Sea off the coast of East Anglia

"Well we left the HOME ground in the month of June
And for canny 'SHIELDS we soon were bearing" - North Shields the fishing port for Newcastle-upon-Tyne

Be interested to hear what Kerry fisherman's song our learned researcher is using as his point of comparison. Another big difference however would be that a traditional song about the sea/fishing as sung by Kerry fisherman would in all probability have been composed by someone who actually knew and had experienced what they were singing about, whereas "Shoals of Herring" was written to order for the BBC by an actor/singer/songwriter as part of a trilogy about the North Sea fishing industry.

Subject: RE: the uk folk revival in 2019
From: Vic Smith
Date: 09 Oct 19 - 07:13 AM

Akenton wrote:-
I think Ewan MacColl was a fantastic writer and Pete Seeger not so much, "The First Time" is in my opinion one of the greatest love songs and the Radio Ballads incomparable. The problem was when they began to see the music as a vehicle for political change.

I think that you are missing a big point here. If the Radio Ballads are not political, then I don't know what is. Apart from being one of the most stimulating pieces of broadcast ever put together in any form, radio or television, The Travelling People is intensely political. It is a fierce argument against inequality, the marginalisation of a minority group and a celebration of attitudes of positivity in the face of adversity. To my mind, you cannot get much more political that that.
We could do with some programmes of such intensity today to deal with racism, intolerance, attitudes towards immigrants and a host of other pressing issues.

Subject: RE: the uk folk revival in 2019
From: r.padgett
Date: 09 Oct 19 - 07:36 AM

Yes I do agree and there are songwriters writing good political and social comment songs Peter Morton and Ray Hearne spring to mind

Ray Padgett

Subject: RE: the uk folk revival in 2019
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 09 Oct 19 - 07:49 AM

I think you will find, Ray, that Jim will dispute whether songs being written now or any written recently and in copyright are folk songs. I am sure he will correct me if I am wrong but I am sure Ewan himself said his songs were not folk songs. It is a view I disagree with but it is a view all the same. The logical conclusion from that view is that a folk revival cannot exist unless it is reviving traditional folk songs.

Subject: RE: the uk folk revival in 2019
From: GUEST,Pseudonymous
Date: 09 Oct 19 - 07:55 AM

@ Vic

There are songs of the sort you list, but not giving the attitudes you would support and also produced by 'the folk'. I have made this point before, which seems important to me, not because I in any way support for example islamophobia but because they undermine this view that 'folk' will/has automatically express/ed sentiments of which the left/liberal left would approve.

Also @ Al, of course as I'm sure you would agree, it isn't only a radical minority of one religious group that persecutes or has persecuted those publishing material they dislike. The murder of Jo Cox and indeed death threats received by MPs across the floor of the House demonstrates this. Just been reading a book about Thomas Cromwell which at points is a list of people executed for heresy and/or treason, this is historical. So while I see what you mean by the Salmon Rushdie example, it is on my view potentially unfortunate in that it points a finger at a community subject to racist attacks on an increasing level. Think Tommy Robinson demonstrations. But you are of course right that musicians/song writers may alienate those who disagree with the views expressed in their music.

Subject: RE: the uk folk revival in 2019
From: GUEST,akenaton
Date: 09 Oct 19 - 08:07 AM

Vic, In my opinion the Radio Ballads celebrated work and culture of the past and of the 50s. They celebrated a spirit and cultures in decline, no whining, but a portrayal of working people dealing with life as it was independently......a big difference from changing the system into some command economy totalitarianism, or as is happening here, ever more state dependence and abdication of personal responsibility.
MacColls writing was excellent but his politics....I suppose encouraged by Seeger, were simply wrong.
The main point though is that the young "folkies" like Dylan and co did not wish to be trapped in the political stranglehold espoused by the older generation of American and UK politically inspired performers. These young performers went on to fame, inspiring a generation, while the Seegers and MacColls are forgotten except in backwaters like this.

Subject: RE: the uk folk revival in 2019
From: Jack Campin
Date: 09 Oct 19 - 08:22 AM

That a learned American researcher thinks of "Shoals of Herring" as being typical of the songs sung by Kerry fisherman doesn't surprise me, I mean the words fit so well don't they!

The researcher was presumably talking about the style and the way the song was constructed, not the specific placenames. MacColl's song is like nothing in British tradition, so well done that researcher in finding something that might have inspired it. Why shouldn't it have been a pastiche of an Irish musical idiom? From somebody who thought he was imitating Japanese melody in "Schooldays End", you don't expect British nationalist purity.

Subject: RE: the uk folk revival in 2019
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 09 Oct 19 - 09:24 AM

"I think it narrowed his appeal."
That is neither proven or important
You make songs to express what you want to say, not to please the punters - that has always been what distinguishes music churned out by the industry that that from the clubs (at least it was when I was actively involved)
That's not to say that writers in the pop field don't make songs that please themselves of course, but in the long run, what sells is what counts

"Its the Salman Rushdie phenomenon "
Only if you regard the mass of the British Public who are happy with the present laws governing pregnancy termination as the same as a bunch of Muslim religious fanatics
I don't
Anti abortion has long been a minority (some would say "extremist" view in Britain (or at least the Scottish and English bits) - the same is now the case with the Republic of Ireland TBTG (as they say over here)

Shoals of Herring
People have actually recorded versions of the song from local singers as 'The Shores of Erin'
MacColl was always insistent that none of his songs were folk songs, though he was happy that they were mistaken for them
In my opinion, the nearest that any of them came to becoming folk songs were those the non-literate Travellers took up and claimed as their own, though many Irish people regard 'Dirty Old Town' as being about Dublin

Travellers had a living tradition into the early 1970s and their non-literacy meant that creative their oral tradition did not fossilise the songs - they (and the Irish in general) also had strong song-making traditions-----------
A few singers described how they were present when songs were made by a group of people rather than a single composer - was a Traveller song made by a bunch of lads sitting on a grassy bank waiting for a wedding to begin, the other was made by four locals in the next villiage to here who, following an arson attack on a local police station during The War of Independence "stood at the crossroads and threw verses at each other till they came up with a seven verse song"
Incidents like this made it clear to me that it is unwise to reject past theories of folk soong making out of hand - these being perfect examples of group composition
Another theory pretty well junked was David Buchan's suggestion that some songs had no set texts but were recreated each time they were sung
We've recorded different versions of the same song from one singer, or, in some cases from related singers who learned them from the same source
It is exactly this which makes me cringe when I see earlier collectors being dismissed as ignorant or romantic

Dave
I believe, as did Ewan, that songs didn't become fork because of style or sound - they went through a process of acceptance and adaptation and eventually, (the folk process) and evolved into folk songs
Despite claims to the contrary, there are hardly any folk songs that can be traced to a definite origin
The ballads have motifs that date back beyond Homer to Ancient Egypt - and, while we know there was an oral tradition when the Venerable Bede got pissed off at cattlemen passing around a harp and singing lewd secular songs during his sermon, a reasonable knowledge of that oral tradition dated back no further than the beginning of the 20th century   
Much of the confusing nonsense surrounding the term 'folk' arised from the myth that bacause traditional singers sang everything they didn't differentiate between the different types

None of this is important to what happened in the clubs, of course - it is a matter of trying to understand our traditions by those of us who wish to do so

Sorry to have banged on about this to such length but I'm preparing for a talk in Belfast next week (details should be up on the Traditional Song Forum website) and this stuff is lying around in my head at present

I couldn't agree more with Vic's statement about The Radio Ballads and politics - Charles Parker put it in a nutshell for me when he wrote, "A good love song sung well by a worker is a fist in the face of the establishment"
Vic Gammon had similar things to say about folk song
I'm fully with both of them
Jim

Subject: RE: the uk folk revival in 2019
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 09 Oct 19 - 09:32 AM

"Why shouldn't it have been a pastiche of an Irish musical idiom?"
The text of 'Shoals of Herring' was lifted directly from interviews wwith two elderly East Anglian fishermen - the tune is an adaptation of that used for 'Famous Flower of Serving Men' in the Gavin Greig Collection
In my opinion, the most moving song Ewan ever wrote, Joy of Living', was given a traditional Sicilian tune
Like most songs he wrote, they quickly took on their own identity, wherever they came from
Jim