BS: Crossword puzzles & rotten word usage!

Subject: BS: Crossword puzzles & rotten word usage!
From: katlaughing
Date: 08 Jul 03 - 03:50 PM

Do any among us know how to go about creating crossword puzzles and what in the world criteria are used for acceptable word usage?

I don't really want to make any myself, but I am curious. I am not talking about the most difficult and/or "best" of crw.p's here, but maybe middle of the heap printed up in small booklets available at the supermarket and from the archives of the Herald Tribune or somesuch.

Anyway, some of what I've seen drives me nuts and makes me really wonder at the editors!

Thanks,

kat

Subject: RE: BS: Crossword puzzles & rotten word usage!
From: Billy the Bus
Date: 08 Jul 03 - 04:18 PM

G'day Kat,

Yeah, I've created a fair few x-words, by hand, and on computer. Don't bother looking for 'World Criteria' for word usage. You'll be damned lucky to find 'Publication Criteria' - no, that's being harsh. Most publications keep a fairly good 'local' standard - mainly because most of their x-words come from the same contributor.

There's a basic distinction between the layout of 'American' and 'English' puzzles (with untold other variants). As to word usage, there's 'normal' and 'cryptic' clues - both depend on your 'National Heritage' - there'll never be a 'World Standard'....

I'm knackered and off to bed. Just remember....

Neversayacrosswordkat...

Cheers - Sam

Subject: RE: BS: Crossword puzzles & rotten word usage!
From: greg stephens
Date: 08 Jul 03 - 04:25 PM

Watch it, katlaughing: getting irritated with crossword compilers' word usage is pretty much on a par with walking around saying "Don't he policemen look young nowadays" or "I'm sure new potatoes don't taste as good as they used to".

Subject: RE: BS: Crossword puzzles & rotten word usage!
From: katlaughing
Date: 08 Jul 03 - 04:35 PM

Well, just to paraphrase an irritating one from today, even though it is in the dictionary, my grumpiness is yeasting at the moment! Or, perhaps instead of fermenting, I should find somethign akin to yeast for fomenting!

Greg, so...you're saying I might have some more white hairs?! Watch it there, you whippersnapper, you!

Sam, g'night and come tell us more, eh?

Subject: RE: BS: Crossword puzzles & rotten word usage!
From: Amos
Date: 08 Jul 03 - 08:29 PM

Main Entry:       fo·ment
Pronunciation:       'fO-"ment, fO-'
Function:       transitive verb
Etymology:       Middle English fomenten to apply a warm substance to, from Late Latin fomentare, from Latin fomentum compress, from fovEre to heat, soothe; akin to Lithuanian degti to burn, Sanskrit dahati it burns
Date:       circa 1613

: to promote the growth or development of : ROUSE, INCITE
synonym see INCITE

- fo·ment·er noun   

Hardly applicable to yeast!

A

Subject: RE: BS: Crossword puzzles & rotten word usage!
From: GUEST,Q
Date: 08 Jul 03 - 08:42 PM

Fermenting yeasts lead to alcohol which leads to drunkenness which leads to fomenting mischief- oh, forget it!

Subject: RE: BS: Crossword puzzles & rotten word usage!
From: Billy the Bus
Date: 09 Jul 03 - 12:03 AM

Kat, you are yeasting, according to Probert Encyclopaedia as well as starting to ferment/foment, or otherwise Making a Wine. That's the only use I've ever known for the term. It's not that common, and I think only refers to adding the yeast to start fermentation. A Google search on the word only brought up ca 1,000 hits. A quick flick through the first 50 brought it up mainly as a Surname!

Anyway, I can see how the word appeared. The poor sod was trying to fill the blanks in something like y*a*t*n*, using a programme like Crossword Compiler, which does all sorts of clever things. Download the demo, and have a play - you'll have fun. The neat thing is you can set up your grid, provide C/C with a wordlist, then, let it go. It will come up with a 'best fit'. Go to the main 'dictionary' and you can fill the blanks. It also finds acronyms, etc. A hell of a lot easier than doing it all on a scratchpad. With software like that, the hardest part is defining the clues - which is the real art of x-word building, and methinks is why you are grumpy.

Umm... a quick punt at clues for "yeasting"....

1. "Normal" - The process of adding a dry ingedient to start
   fermentation in alcohol (or bread)

2. "Cryptic" - Drygoods that put the punch into wine, and give
   it a final 'ting'.

Awww Shucks Kat ... give us a break = post the 'cross-over' letters and 'blanks', so I can have a go at finding alternative word(s). I'd also like to see the clue that got your tits in a tangle ... ;)

Cheers - Sam

Subject: RE: BS: Crossword puzzles & rotten word usage!
From: katlaughing
Date: 09 Jul 03 - 12:12 AM

Well, Samdarlin', fortunately my beauties (there's a clue for you!) are recovering nicely, BUT the clue which was so stupid was: Fermented. The answer was: yeasted! I don't have the stupid book handy at the mo', but as I recall the crossover words weren't that difficult. I'll look tomorrow, though I should be working instead!**bg**

THANKS for all of the links, too! I'll never get any work done now!

Q, I think you were going somewhere with that - a valiant effort, at the least!

Amos, I didn't mean that yeast and foment were related, only that I would have to find the equivalent of "yeasted/yeasting" for "foment" as the idjits who used it for "fermented!"

Hmmmm...how about a Mudcat cxwrd puzzle?

Subject: RE: BS: Crossword puzzles & rotten word usage!
From: Billy the Bus
Date: 09 Jul 03 - 01:01 AM

Kat, you're joking! Clue=Fermented, Ans=Yeasted? What a clueless author. Beaut to hear your beauts have deflated, and aren't still in the mangle - Sam

Subject: RE: BS: Crossword puzzles & rotten word usage!
From: Billy the Bus
Date: 09 Jul 03 - 02:45 AM

OK Kat,

I'll take up the challenge - can't afford to upgrade my aged 'freeware' version of 'Crossword Compiler' to get the on-line crossword version - I can use what I have to do it (with difficulty), howsomever, here are a few MadCatters converted to acronyms by my "drive in gag" (= 'Aged Virgin' of C/C) - work out who they are...

This should be a new thread, but I'm cheating and using technology!

1. Earth Time
2. Ketch of Fudge
3. Bach Browser
4. A Talking Hulk
5. Spent her eggs....

Awww Shucks - Birthdays and this page make it too easy

Cheers - Sam - ducking

Subject: RE: BS: Crossword puzzles & rotten word usage!
From: clueless don
Date: 09 Jul 03 - 01:35 PM

At the risk of thread creep, I will mention some pet peeves about crosswords:

1. There is no such word as "oner", meaning one-of-a-kind, and sometimes referred to with the clue "lollapalooza".

2. There is no such god of love as "amor".

Subject: RE: BS: Crossword puzzles & rotten word usage!
From: Snuffy
Date: 09 Jul 03 - 07:05 PM

I thought a oner was a banknote, like a fiver and a tenner

Subject: RE: BS: Crossword puzzles & rotten word usage!
From: GUEST,Q
Date: 09 Jul 03 - 07:51 PM

Ugh! Now I'm fomenting at the mouth!

Oner reminds me that Aone is common for tops. Another trap for the oscitant xword tyro.

ONER has a long and noble history. No less an author than Charles Dickens (in The Old Curiosity Shop, 1840). "Miss Sally is sich a one-er for that."
(Americans are often blamed fer that pronunciation (sich). Much of our bad pronunciation came from the good old British Isles. The rest from other furrin cuntries).

"You should see her eat. She is such a oner at eating." That came from Thackeray in 1862. Other examples are given; the word seems to have been fashionable in the 19th century.

Snuffy, nuttin' wrong with your usage. The OED has this example: 1869- "His figures run to anything between a fiver and two or three hundred oners." Pall Mall Gazette. (?? race track betting ??)

And then there is the boxing match which is a oner- Won with the first blow. 1861, but spelled onener.

Subject: RE: BS: Crossword puzzles & rotten word usage!
From: GUEST,sorefingers
Date: 09 Jul 03 - 10:23 PM

Mudcat newshite open for business ...


Oh eeee yeah!

Subject: RE: BS: Crossword puzzles & rotten word usage!
From: GUEST,Q
Date: 09 Jul 03 - 11:13 PM

Going back to Kat's original question. Almost anything seems fair to the xword mavens.
My wife- hopelessly hooked- used foreign language dictionaries, the complete Oxford, and slang dictionaries. Also the World Almanac, The Nat. Geographic Atlas and an old atlas from 1900 (the names do change), The Encyclopaedia Britannica- I could go on.

"Honey, would you look up a word for me?" always disrupts my Sundays. "One of these days, Alice," as Ralph Kramden said on The Honeymooners. "Pow! Right on the old kisser!"
   
To me, the worst are those which include the names of a lot of long dead philosophers, old book characters, and quotations from long-forgotten authors (Oh, yes, Bartlett's Quotations, mustn't forget that).

Subject: RE: BS: Crossword puzzles & rotten word usage!
From: katlaughing
Date: 09 Jul 03 - 11:24 PM

Today's irritations:

Clue: trappers   Answer: snarers

Clue: turned right    Answer: geed (as in Gee! & Haw!)

I love hearing all of your opinions, examples, and such. Samdarlin'..my head is a bit frazzled to tackle your offerings just yet, but mayhap someone else will take it on in the meantime. Now, what about that? How come we don't have a nicetime?!**bg**

Subject: RE: BS: Crossword puzzles & rotten word usage!
From: Cluin
Date: 10 Jul 03 - 02:55 AM

I was doing the one in the paper at my mom's house today. The space was 4 letters and the clue was "A word exclusively applied to the female gender". The 3 final letters were filled in already, but the first letter was left blank. It was _ U N T.

So I filled the first letter in.

But it turned out the answer was A U N T. And I wished I wasn't using a pen.

Subject: RE: BS: Crossword puzzles & rotten word usage!
From: Billy the Bus
Date: 10 Jul 03 - 03:11 AM

Hope your mom's sister doesn't see it, Cluin - Sam

Subject: RE: BS: Crossword puzzles & rotten word usage!
From: gnu
Date: 10 Jul 03 - 05:27 AM

Amoeba... ameba, etcetera, ad infinitum. Piss me off !

Subject: RE: BS: Crossword puzzles & rotten word usage!
From: clueless don
Date: 10 Jul 03 - 08:38 AM

Thank you, GUEST,Q, for your references for "oner". I will now admit that it is a word, though that doesn't mean I have to like it! Thanks also to Snuffy for reminding me of "oner" as a word for a one pound note or one dollar bill. If the crossword people had given the clue (here in America, that is) as "dollar bill", I wouldn't have been so upset with oner.

Another pet peeve of mine is "aper", though I'm not going to argue that it is not a word.

Now, does anyone want to present evidence for "amor" as a god of love?

Subject: RE: BS: Crossword puzzles & rotten word usage!
From: GUEST,Q
Date: 10 Jul 03 - 12:16 PM

Aper is in the OED, but thanks be that they say it is "rare." I don't like it either.

Amor is considered to be a foreign word by the OED, so they don't include it. Always heard of the god of love, but I don't think Amor itself has ever been the name of a god.

Subject: RE: BS: Crossword puzzles & rotten word usage!
From: jeffp
Date: 10 Jul 03 - 12:26 PM

According to dictionary.com, Amor is the Roman God of Love, equivalent to Eros.

Now, how much credibility you give them is your own concern.

Subject: RE: BS: Crossword puzzles & rotten word usage!
From: katlaughing
Date: 10 Jul 03 - 12:32 PM

I see lots of references to Amor as the god of love in French, Portugese, Spanish and other languages. But, much as it pains me to say it, I also found this reference on a mythology site:

Cupid was the god of love in Roman mythology. The name Cupid is a variation on Cupido ("desire"), and this god was also known by the name Amor ("love").

Arrgghhh!

I hate "aper," too!! And, it really bugs me when they use famous names within a cluster so that if you don't know at least one or two, that's it!

Cluin, that's funny!

kat

Subject: RE: BS: Crossword puzzles & rotten word usage!
From: clueless don
Date: 10 Jul 03 - 02:01 PM

Speaking of crosswords ...

The names of author Erle Stanley Gardner and comedian Arte Johnson will live forever, thanks to the recurrent use of their first names in puzzle answers.

Subject: RE: BS: Crossword puzzles & rotten word usage!
From: GUEST,Q
Date: 10 Jul 03 - 02:03 PM

Amor sent me digging into the Wordsworth Classical Dictionary, which is a reprint of the 1852 "Smaller Classical Dictionary," by William Smith.
There it is: "AMOR, the god of love, had no place in the religion of the Romans, who only translate the Greek name Eros into Amor."

Since it is only a translated name, it doesn't come up much.

Subject: RE: BS: Crossword puzzles & rotten word usage!
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 10 Jul 03 - 03:35 PM

Well, in English poetry there's lot of examples where Love is personified, and interchangeable with Cupid. And the other way round - as in this line "For by Cupid I am surrounded" from this song.

Cryptic crosswords are supposed to be a great way of holding the brain together as we get older. Of course they also drive you crazy, but that's a diffeent matter entirely.

Subject: RE: BS: Crossword puzzles & rotten word usage!
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 10 Jul 03 - 03:36 PM

That's a great story, Cluin. But I'm a bit sceptical about it...

Subject: RE: BS: Crossword puzzles & rotten word usage!
From: katlaughing
Date: 10 Jul 03 - 03:37 PM

But it does in those languages which have their basis in Latin, surely, esp. Spanish, at least from what I saw in a quick search. Ah, well, doesn't really matter. Thye love to throw in obscure words. One the other day was a clue of "prayer." The answer was "orison." How often does one see that!

More of today's irritations, first two are in the dictionary:

C - take heed A - reck (which becomes obvious, as related to "reckon" but who ever says "You'd better reck?!)

C - crippler   A - maimer (I can just see the headlines "Cops Catch Hillside Maimer!)

C - artful dodger   A - finesser (!arrgghhh!!)

Subject: RE: BS: Crossword puzzles & rotten word usage!
From: GUEST,Q
Date: 10 Jul 03 - 04:09 PM

Reck is a very old word, meaning to take care, to heed, to care, etc., but is almost obsolete. Reckon also is a very old word, and their paths crossed long ago.

Remember the old parody, "It's in the book." Crossword puzzles are about what's in the books and may have little reference to how we actually talk and write.

Subject: RE: BS: Crossword puzzles & rotten word usage!
From: katlaughing
Date: 10 Jul 03 - 06:08 PM

Yes, I'd found the origin of "reck."

Thanks for the "book" reminder, Q. I have a whole list of obscure/obsolete words from a recent re-reading of Quentin Durward that would make for some *wicked* answers!:-)

Subject: RE: BS: Crossword puzzles & rotten word usage!
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 10 Jul 03 - 06:25 PM

Nymph, in thy orisons
Be all my sins remember'd.

Hamlet. Act iii. Sc. 1.

Subject: RE: BS: Crossword puzzles & rotten word usage!
From: GUEST,James
Date: 11 Jul 03 - 11:04 AM

I dfo the NY Times puzzle regularly..here are my peeves...they spell badly and often cannot decide how certain words ARE spelled. Too many pop obscurities and a lack of knowledge about english usage .

Subject: RE: BS: Crossword puzzles & rotten word usage!
From: clueless don
Date: 11 Jul 03 - 12:40 PM

Yes, GUEST,James, they spell badly. I have learned that when a clue is followed by "(var.)", it means that they want you to spell it wrong! (or, on the topic of english usage, should that be "...spell it WRONGLY" :) ???)

Subject: RE: BS: Crossword puzzles & rotten word usage!
From: Cluin
Date: 11 Jul 03 - 01:20 PM

Because you know it's an old joke, McGrath. But you're right, kat, it's still funny.

Subject: RE: BS: Crossword puzzles & rotten word usage!
From: GUEST,Q
Date: 11 Jul 03 - 04:09 PM

They don't need to invent "variants" because there are a lot already (but they do!).
One I had last week- a var. of crescent. The OED already has cressant, creasaunt, cressent, croissant, croisant, etc, and most of them can start off with croy. I forget what the "word" was, but it wasn't one of those.
Enough already!

Subject: RE: BS: Crossword puzzles & rotten word usage!
From: Herga Kitty
Date: 11 Jul 03 - 04:54 PM

I really like the groan-making clues (no, I don't mean gonar, rango, angor, nogar) like, nommag, 10 letters, which I think might have been in the London Times a few years ago.

Subject: RE: BS: Crossword puzzles & rotten word usage!
From: Billy the Bus
Date: 22 Jul 03 - 12:03 AM

G'day,

Here's an electronic crossword solver I just found from the Times website.

Crossword Maestro can tackle almost all types of cryptic clues including anagram clues, charades, straight cryptic clues, double definitions, container and contents, hidden words, reversals, reverse hidden words, "sounds like" clues, word deletions, specified letter deletions, initial, final, alternating and central letter clues as well as clues that combine any of the above types!

The More examples of its clue solving ability link leads to some rather esoteric cryptic clues, with explainations, which are worth looking at.

The only snag is the price - "The normal price of the software is £64.95 but readers of The Times and The Sunday Times can obtain the software at a huge discount: only £39.95!" - I'd have to sell Billy the Bus.

Cheers - Sam