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BS: Iraqis Beheading Americans
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Subject: BS: Iraqis Beheading Americans From: Kim C Date: 11 May 04 - 03:44 PM Story Here at CNN |
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Subject: RE: BS: Iraqis Beheading Americans From: GUEST Date: 11 May 04 - 04:19 PM Horrific. But it does beg the question, what was this guy doing on his own in Iraq? |
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Subject: RE: BS: Iraqis Beheading Americans From: Lepus Rex Date: 11 May 04 - 04:28 PM Well, it's not clear that it was Iraqis doing the beheading, and it was "only" one guy, so "Americans" is innacurate. But, yeah, it's an unfortunate ending, even for a war profiteer. ---Lepus Rex |
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Subject: RE: BS: Iraqis Beheading Americans From: greg stephens Date: 11 May 04 - 04:31 PM Well, making repellent snuff movies for kicks might be considered by most of us a little worse than "unfortunate". |
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Subject: RE: BS: Iraqis Beheading Americans From: Rapparee Date: 11 May 04 - 04:33 PM That is answered in the story, GUEST. He was rebuilding communications antennas. Besides, what does that have to do with his being beheaded? |
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Subject: RE: BS: Iraqis Beheading Americans From: Little Hawk Date: 11 May 04 - 04:38 PM It's unfortunate, all right. One more can of gasoline thrown on the fire. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Iraqis Beheading Americans From: DonMeixner Date: 11 May 04 - 04:39 PM Lepus, How did you reach the determination that Berg was a War Profiteer? Don |
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Subject: RE: BS: Iraqis Beheading Americans From: Nerd Date: 11 May 04 - 04:42 PM Indeed, Ar-Zaqawi, the man who is reported to have done this, is Jordanian, not Iraqi. I'm not sure if Kim C's distortions above (that there was more than one American beheaded and that the assailants were Iraqi) are intentional or an honest mistake. It sure has the feel of the right-wing echo chamber, so I guess Kim C is either a participant in it or a victim of it! This is a case of two groups (Al Qaeda and the US) at war in a place where neither group belongs. The administration of course will spin this as "see, they're worse than we are." But as usual, it's a different "them." We torture Iraqi civilians, Al Qaeda beheads an American, we torture some more Iraqis, Al Qaeda kills some more Americans. It's great for Al Qaeda, sucks for both us and Iraq. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Iraqis Beheading Americans From: kendall Date: 11 May 04 - 04:53 PM Isn't it rewarding to see how well we have learned from the Arabs and Israelis? Sure keeps the population down. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Iraqis Beheading Americans From: Lepus Rex Date: 11 May 04 - 04:58 PM Didn't appear to have been made "for kicks," greg, though it's certainly possible that the killers were enjoying themselves. But just because it's an American corpse this time doesn't make it any more outrageous to me than what happens to Iraqis there every day. I've seen more than enough American "snuff movies" over the last year where the soldiers were taking obvious pleasure in murder. On CNN, even. DonMeixner: Americans and other high-paid westerners going to Iraq to "rebuild the infrastructure," drive trucks, etc., (and their employers, of course, whose profiteering has been widely documented) are there to make large amounts of cash. They're selling their services for many times the price that an Iraqi would be paid, and so are making unreasonable profits from the war. And perhaps unlike in Afghanistan, there are more than enough qualified natives. Just my opinion, of course, but I'd say that makes them profiteers. ---Lepus Rex |
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Subject: RE: BS: Iraqis Beheading Americans From: DonMeixner Date: 11 May 04 - 05:01 PM No lep[us, That makes you an idiot. Don |
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Subject: RE: BS: Iraqis Beheading Americans From: pdq Date: 11 May 04 - 05:09 PM In February, 2002, an American journalist was kidnapped and murderd by al Qaeda members who had once been in Afghanistan. I believe he was beheaded, even butchered further into bloody parts. Have people forgotten about Danny Pearl already? |
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Subject: RE: BS: Iraqis Beheading Americans From: Lepus Rex Date: 11 May 04 - 05:09 PM Ouch, snappy comeback, Don! Instead of calling me an "idiot," why don't you explain to me why I'm wrong? ---Lepus Rex |
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Subject: RE: BS: Iraqis Beheading Americans From: Lepus Rex Date: 11 May 04 - 05:15 PM God damn, pdq, fucking brilliant point. That has everything to do with what happened 1500 miles away a few years ago! Remember Danny Pearl! And let's not forget the Holocaust, what they did to our boys in Vietnam, and of course the fucking Alamo, while we're at it. :P ---Lepus Rex |
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Subject: RE: BS: Iraqis Beheading Americans From: DonMeixner Date: 11 May 04 - 05:15 PM Lepus Not everyone who goes to theater of war is there to profiteer. Make a profit maybe. Earn a living while doing good perhaps. To assume that all people who are working in a theater of war are crooks at best because they happen to be Americans is a stupid as me calling you an idiot out of hand. Don |
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Subject: RE: BS: Iraqis Beheading Americans From: MAG Date: 11 May 04 - 05:15 PM there have been quite enough atrocities on all sides. It would be nice for everyone to stop. I've been singing that tune about the middle east for, oh, about 3 decades. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Iraqis Beheading Americans From: Kim C Date: 11 May 04 - 05:18 PM Sorry, Nerd, you're right, it was just ONE American. The story doesn't say that the beheader is Jordanian, only that he has been operating in Iraq, so please excuse me if I assumed that he is himself Iraqi. Any Clone has my permission to change the title of this thread to American Allegedly Beheaded in Iraq by Jordanian Man. Kim C Not a victim or participant |
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Subject: RE: BS: Iraqis Beheading Americans From: Once Famous Date: 11 May 04 - 06:02 PM I agree with don Meixner's explanation Lupus Rex and you are still an idiot. American soldiers have sprayed water on these dirtbags, pretended to electrocute them, and put them in naked body piles so they can smell their own stink. I wouldn't doubt if most of the pictures we have seen have been for souvinirs. Cutting off your enemies head on a video is far cry from this. I don't sanction what was done to the Arab prisoners in the least, but we weren't doing anything while yelling some fanatic religious saying. These are the worst of the maggot Arabs we are at war with. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Iraqis Beheading Americans From: GUEST,sorefingers Date: 11 May 04 - 06:06 PM Every news site on the internet has seen this video but the public do not. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Iraqis Beheading Americans From: MAG Date: 11 May 04 - 06:06 PM That racist attitude is why we are in such a mess over there, tacoma-webber. people like you make me embarrassed for the human race. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Iraqis Beheading Americans From: Rapparee Date: 11 May 04 - 06:09 PM Both sides disgust in this disgust me. Not in Iraq, in this thread. I shan't return. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Iraqis Beheading Americans From: Peace Date: 11 May 04 - 06:24 PM The taking of any human life is a sin against all humanity. The spin Lepus puts on it seems to be that if people are anywhere to help rebuild a country they are profiteers. The killing of people to make political statements is sick--as sick as killing other people for oil or geopolitics. I don't think Lepus is an idiot. I do think he ain't wrapped too tight. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Iraqis Beheading Americans From: Bobert Date: 11 May 04 - 06:57 PM Well, in this overy sanitized war I don't find it too difficult undersatnd the outrage... Americans have not seen what has and is happening in Iraq, or Afganistan, fir that matter... Now, if just 1% of the actual human pain and suffering by both Iraqis and American and their so-called coilition, were to be shown then the reaction would be much different. Hey, the US invaded a country with a third rate defense with their "Shock and Awe", not the Iraqis invading the US! In doing so it killed thouasnds and thousands of Iragis, most of them civilians... And now were are surprised that we have pissed off some folks over there to the point where that are acting in such a brutal fashion? Hmmmmmm? Like what am I missing here??? Throw in the recent pics of the ubuse of Iraqi prisoners and when Bush satnds up and says' "Bring it on", he's certain to find lots of folks willing to do just that... Bobert |
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Subject: RE: BS: Iraqis Beheading Americans From: GUEST,sorefingers Date: 11 May 04 - 07:04 PM I found the complete video at www.orgish.com Be warned it is what they say! |
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Subject: RE: BS: Iraqis Beheading Americans From: DougR Date: 11 May 04 - 07:33 PM So Guest, because he was over there on his own, he got what he deserved, right? From reports I have heard on TV, he was there as an independent contractor helping to improve the communications infracture of Iraq. For that he desereved to be beheaded? Anyone who compares the abuse in the prison to an act like this needs his/her head examined (though while still in place). This act illustrates the kind of enemy we are facing. They are subhuman, and in my opinion deserve no special consideration if captured. DougR |
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Subject: RE: BS: Iraqis Beheading Americans From: Peace Date: 11 May 04 - 07:44 PM DougR: I cannot begin to perceive people as sub-human. They have had their minds twisted by leaders--both political and religious. Sick, yes. Sub-human, no. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Iraqis Beheading Americans From: Lepus Rex Date: 11 May 04 - 07:47 PM DonMeixner: I didn't say that all Americans working in Iraq is a profiteer. There are many non-missionary aid workers and human rights workers, for instance, who I fully support. But people who are there for the big, big money: profiteers. And you haven't given one reason why they shouldn't be called that. Martin Gibson: First, genius: It's Lepus. Second: Ah, fuck it. The opinion of a racist isn't worth responding to. Hope that whole "white supremacy" thing works out for you, though. Heil Hitler, dude. And did I say it wasn't wrong to kill the guy, brucie? As I said, "it's an unfortunate ending, even for a war profiteer." Horrible thing, what happened to him. But he was still a profiteer. Doug: OK, I know I'm not your favourite, but I've always respected you and valued your views here. But... "they are subhuman, and in my opinion deserve no special consideration if captured"? You're not helping your cause with creepy Nazi-like statements such as this. Oh, and here's another link to the video, with screenshots. Oops, nope. It's not there anymore. "This Account Has Been Suspended" Odd... ---Lepus Rex |
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Subject: RE: BS: Iraqis Beheading Americans From: Lepus Rex Date: 11 May 04 - 07:49 PM ("I didn't say that all Americans working in Iraq is a profiteer" --- "all Americans" = "any American") |
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Subject: RE: BS: Iraqis Beheading Americans From: Peace Date: 11 May 04 - 07:51 PM Lepus: We are arguing semantics. We too are war profiteers by that definition. You are telling me that if I went there to help train structual firefighters, and received pay for doing that, that I would be profiteering. What if I did that for firefighters a few towns away from where I live? Would that make me a profiteer? |
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Subject: RE: BS: Iraqis Beheading Americans From: Jim McCallan Date: 11 May 04 - 07:54 PM Try here: 'Mabus' Discussion Forum It is a Danish news report, but the beheading itself is not shown Jim |
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Subject: RE: BS: Iraqis Beheading Americans From: pdq Date: 11 May 04 - 08:01 PM Lepus Rex...here is a quote from the 'Mabus' forum cited by Jim McCallan: "The slaying recalled the kidnapping and videotaped beheading of Wall Street Journal reporter Daniel Pearl in 2002 in Pakistan. Four Islamic militants have been convicted of kidnapping Pearl, but seven other suspects - including those who allegedly slit his throat - remain at large." |
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Subject: RE: BS: Iraqis Beheading Americans From: Bobert Date: 11 May 04 - 08:04 PM Sub-human, Dougie? Just how many Iraqi hospitals have you visited lately? It would appear that due to the US's vast military superiority that it can kill or maim about 20 Iraqis to every one of its own who is killed or maimed. Now, I guess "sub-human" depends on which side fo thre fence yer sittin'. With over 10,000 civilian Iraqi deeaths, and countin', one might see the US "liberators" as the sub-human... And, no, I am not condonin' anything the Iraqis do... Just pointing out that we here in the US don't have clue as to thelevel of human pain and drstruction we have inflicted on the Iraqi people... Now I'm beginning to see why Bush was so adament on not signin' on to the World Court.. Bobert |
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Subject: RE: BS: Iraqis Beheading Americans From: MarkS Date: 11 May 04 - 08:07 PM It would be worthwhile to remember that Al Qaeda killed over 3000 Americans not too long ago, before we knew much about them, before Afghanistan, and before Iraq. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Iraqis Beheading Americans From: Bobert Date: 11 May 04 - 08:24 PM And, Mark, that would have abeen a perfect time to use the good will for America and its people to forge ahead with even better intellegence to that these folks could be brought to justice, just as the Libians had been from the plane they blew up over Locerbe... But instead of turning this into an opportunity to increase the US's ability to gather intellegence it went into the *wacking* mode instead. Good for Bush's ratings. Very poor for fighting terrorism. Now no one trusts anything we do... Good luck in preventing the next 9/11 now... Bobert |
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Subject: RE: BS: Iraqis Beheading Americans From: CarolC Date: 11 May 04 - 08:41 PM DougR, you're a Nazi. I once thought you were an honorable person. My mistake. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Iraqis Beheading Americans From: Charley Noble Date: 11 May 04 - 08:46 PM It's not surprising to me at all, given what we've been doing to Iraqis. But I'm sad about that. And I expect that some people will use this incident to justify in their minds further abuse to Iraqis. When will we ever learn? (Expletive deleted), Charley Noble |
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Subject: RE: BS: Iraqis Beheading Americans From: GUEST Date: 11 May 04 - 08:47 PM The man who was beheaded wasn't working with any American entities, military or private contractors, according to the Pentagon. He was running Iraq on his own, had been arrested and detained by our military prior to his release, and according to the nightly news, his father is now apparently blaming the US military for his death. Does that mean he deserved to die an horrific death? No. But it does mean none of us is out of line when we say, well what the fuck do you expect will happen when you go Ramboing around in a war zone? |
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Subject: RE: BS: Iraqis Beheading Americans From: Ebbie Date: 11 May 04 - 08:59 PM DougR, I cannot fathom that you got that view from the Fox network so I have to accept that you bought into it on your own. Your poor parents. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Iraqis Beheading Americans From: dianavan Date: 11 May 04 - 09:29 PM Nobody deserves to be be-headed but there is alot more to this story. We do know his expertise was communication. We don't know who he worked for. The U.S. military detained him for nearly two weeks without access to a lawyer. It was after he was released that the be-heading took place. The big question. What was he really doing there? |
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Subject: RE: BS: Iraqis Beheading Americans From: GUEST Date: 11 May 04 - 09:31 PM From the NY Times article: "American officials and the slain man's family, in West Chester, Pa., identified the victim as Nicholas Berg, 26, who had gone to Iraq on his own looking for contracting work... The (intelligence) official also took note of Mr. Berg's decision to go to Iraq without an employer. "It was the wrong place for someone without a support structure to be," the intelligence official said... Mr. Berg's mother told The A.P. that her son had been in Iraq from December to February seeking work rebuilding the country's infrastructure. After a short stay back home, she said, he returned to Iraq in March. He later told them that he had been jailed by Iraqi officials after being stopped at a checkpoint in the northern city of Mosul before he could return home, as planned, on March 30. "He was arrested and held without due process," his father, Michael, told The Daily Local News of West Chester. "By the time he got out the whole area was inflamed with violence." And from ABCnews.com: "Berg's mother said her son was in Iraq as an independent businessman to help rebuild communication antennas. Berg owned a communications equipment company, Prometheus Methods Tower Service Inc., she said. He was in Baghdad from late December to Feb. 1, then returned to Iraq in March, his family said. The Bergs last heard from their son April 9, when he told his parents he would come home by way of Jordan. Suzanne Berg said that the family had been trying for weeks to learn where their son was, but that federal officials had not been helpful. "I went through this with them for weeks," she said. "I basically ended up doing most of the investigating myself." Michael Berg described himself as fervently anti-war, but said his son disagreed. "He was a Bush supporter," Berg said. "He looked at it as bringing democracy to a country that didn't have it." Michael Berg lashed out at the U.S. military and Bush administration, saying his son might still be alive if he had been allowed to leave the country on March 30, as he had originally planned. Nick Berg spoke to his parents on March 24 and said he would return home March 30. But he was detained by Iraqi police at a checkpoint in Mosul on March 24. At some point during his 13-day detention, U.S. officials took custody of him, his father said, and he was not allowed to make phone calls or contact a lawyer. FBI agents visited Berg's parents in West Chester on March 31 and told the family they were trying to confirm their son's identity. On April 5, the Bergs sued the government in federal court in Philadelphia, contending that their son was being held illegally by the U.S. military. Berg was released the next day, and he told his parents he had not been mistreated. They did not hear from him after April 9." |
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Subject: RE: BS: Iraqis Beheading Americans From: dianavan Date: 11 May 04 - 09:38 PM Next question - What did you think the response to those torture pics would be? Did you really think the Bush apology would make a difference? Who do you think we are dealing with anyway? Rule #1 if you are going to war - know your enemy. The Bush administration has done more to jeopardize the security of North America than all the acts of terrorism combined. He cares nothing for your well-being or the safety of his troops. Bush is a war monger who has found himself dangling on the edge of insanity. Unfortunately, he will probably take all of us with him. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Iraqis Beheading Americans From: DonMeixner Date: 11 May 04 - 09:41 PM Lepus wrote, "Americans and other high-paid westerners going to Iraq to "rebuild the infrastructure," drive trucks, etc., (and their employers, of course, whose profiteering has been widely documented) are there to make large amounts of cash. They're selling their services for many times the price that an Iraqi would be paid, and so are making unreasonable profits from the war. And perhaps unlike in Afghanistan, there are more than enough qualified natives. Just my opinion, of course, but I'd say that makes them profiteers." Lepus I can't figure any other way to read this than any American working to rebuild Iraq is a War Profiteer. Perhaps when you wrote this you left out a word in a critical spot. I do this all the time. And I'm sorry gang I gotta agree to a large extent with Doug R. about the sub-human status of anyone who would saw off another man's head for the camera no matter what the reason. If they aren't truly Sub-Human they are behaving in a Sub-Human manner. I draw no distinctions here for purposes of race. There is none to draw, the people in Irag are not a different race from people in Connecticut or some one in Wales. There is no justification to claim one race is superior to another, I don't believe it, I never have. I don't believe there is a religious allowance here for such actions either. When the Spainish Inquisition allowed such brutality it was because mortals claimed it was the word of God. The same is true with the Muslims, this order came from defective perverted deranged minds. Mortal minds, not Allah or God. It doesn't matter whether Berg was there to make a killing on the lack of cable TV in Iraq or there to help bring power and light to those who needed it. He was a human being who was treated as inhumanely as were the people in The World Trade Center. The difference is he was ther by choice and knew there were risks. The people at TWC were at work, risking no more than a paper cut. It wasn't Iraqi shop keepers or plumbers or Iraqi school teachers or their students who killed Berg. It was faceless terrorists who claim no nationality and weren't brave enough to show their faces in the photos that I have seen of this act who treated this man so inhumanly. And anyone who can honestly say that Berg deserved to die this way for some clouded purpose or to avenge public nudity and unsaved face needs to rethink their own moral culpability to the world at large. Donald R. Meixner |
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Subject: RE: BS: Iraqis Beheading Americans From: GUEST,Julia Date: 11 May 04 - 09:41 PM HELLO! The perpetrators of this horrendous thing are not Iraquis The 3000 victims of 9/11 included a large nummber of foreign nationals including people from the middle east 9/11 was caused by Al Quaeda, NOT Saddam Hussein or the Iraqui people It is precisely the kind of hysterical misinformation rampant on this thread that perpetuates the violence And has done for millenia Animals do not behave this way |
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Subject: RE: BS: Iraqis Beheading Americans From: Chief Chaos Date: 11 May 04 - 10:00 PM Not to nitpick, but yes, animals do behave this way. It is well documented that killer whales and cats will often "play with their food" causing serious injury and pain to their prey, allowing them to escape and then recapturing them for more "abuse". It has even been seen that they have left corpses of the animal uneaten where we used to believe that they only killed to obtain food. I pray for Mr. Berg and his family. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Iraqis Beheading Americans From: Ebbie Date: 11 May 04 - 10:08 PM Wait. I think 'sub-human' is totally off the point. Beheading for execution these days is more cultural than anything else. Not too many years ago, Japanese men disemboweled themselves when they perceived themselves as having been dishonored. Was that sub-human? No. The practice to us in the western hemisphere would be totally abhorrent but that is because it has never been part of our culture. My guess is that to today's generation of Japanese the custom would be considered unacceptable- but the people would be a great deal less shocked if their prime minister disemboweled himself today than we would be if President Bush disemboweled himself over this scandal. Simply because the practice was part of their history. So. My opinion is that talking and thinking of sub-humanity is a dangerous mindset, indeed. We can do a hell of a lot better than that. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Iraqis Beheading Americans From: GUEST Date: 11 May 04 - 10:12 PM "And anyone who can honestly say that Berg deserved to die this way for some clouded purpose or to avenge public nudity and unsaved face needs to rethink their own moral culpability to the world at large." Where did ANYONE in this thread say this man deserved to die? It doesn't take a rocket scientist to figure out this guy put himself in harm's way, now does it? His parents begged him not to go. He had no support in Iraq. Because his death was horrific doesn't change the fact he shouldn't have been there to begin with, does it? BTW, we've killed many times more Iraqis than were killed in the 9/11 attacks. When will we have spilled enough blood to sate those of you who believe we are giving the Iraqi "sub-humans" what they never deserved to begin with because, as has been pointed out AGAIN it wasn't the Iraqis, but Saudi terrorists, who were the murderers behind 9/11. But I guess we just shouldn't confuse some of you with the facts... |
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Subject: RE: BS: Iraqis Beheading Americans From: Bobert Date: 11 May 04 - 10:12 PM No, Don M, since we are the good guys, we never cut folks heads off in public... Bottom line, we're killin' 20 Iraqis, most of them civilians, fir every US troop killed, but hey, at least we don't have to see the picures of the Iraqi dead.... You do the math, pal... Bobert |
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Subject: RE: BS: Iraqis Beheading Americans From: GUEST,.gargoyle Date: 11 May 04 - 10:12 PM What better choice for a Horst Wessel?
Single - out of work - trying to busk a solo-gig for his attenae company.
Iraqi's don't want him....his parents whine when he is put into protective custody by American Troops....he is released and continues a Quixotic Quest into the hands of the only people who have a use for his poor-sorry-tourist-soul.
Sincerely, |
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Subject: RE: BS: Iraqis Beheading Americans From: DonMeixner Date: 11 May 04 - 11:03 PM Bite me Bob |
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Subject: RE: BS: Iraqis Beheading Americans From: DonMeixner Date: 11 May 04 - 11:24 PM Garg, Explain the Horst Wessel thing to me. It isn't a term I'm familiar with. Don |
