BS: Should you alienate Fascists?

Subject: RE: BS: Should you alienate Fascists?
From: Don(Wyziwyg)T
Date: 04 Mar 10 - 06:06 PM

By the way Conrad, a look at one of their concerts would open your eyes to the fact that the skinhead, string vested tattooed thugs strutting about the place, are of a breed that you have never seen, and will never see at a folk club or folk festival.

What they are running is something very different.

Wake up and see what is going on around you.

Don T.

Subject: RE: BS: Should you alienate Fascists?
From: *#1 PEASANT*
Date: 04 Mar 10 - 08:37 PM

skinheads are as entitled to sing a folk song or organize a festival as you are - be thankful that anyone is taking an interest.

yes if they arent bothering anyone at the moment no problem

Subject: RE: BS: Should you alienate Fascists?
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 04 Mar 10 - 10:40 PM

Your "at the moment" is rather disingenuous*, isn't it, Conrad? They are as capable of biding their time as anyone else; but make no secret of their ultimate intentions ~ see Wyziwig's post 2&3 above.

* ··· unless, that is, you yourself have an 'agenda'?

Subject: RE: BS: Should you alienate Fascists?
From: Don(Wyziwyg)T
Date: 05 Mar 10 - 10:48 AM

I have a feeling that this peasant, is one of our erstwhile guests, now become a member, the more effectively to further the BNP message.

NO CHANCE BUDDY!

Don T.

Subject: RE: BS: Should you alienate Fascists?
From: theleveller
Date: 05 Mar 10 - 11:09 AM

Yeah, me too. Backfired though, didn't it. Now, where's a fascist to alientate....

Subject: RE: BS: Should you alienate Fascists?
From: *#1 PEASANT*
Date: 05 Mar 10 - 11:16 AM

Yes they are all biding their time lurking in the shadows waiting to pounce on you at any time, the fascists, probably in your thinking the lesbians, communists, gays who knows who else.

Get over it the world is a diverse place. I have known skinheads and went to school with a few. Almost all are utterly harmless.

Seems to me that folkies really dont want anyone but approved members of their tight knit community sharing the music. Sad.

Then in the same breath we have performers telling us that they don't make enough money and can barely survive and need grants. I guess they will continue to be in need until the community finds tolerance and lets all well behaved individuals take part.

Conrd

Subject: RE: BS: Should you alienate Fascists?
From: theleveller
Date: 05 Mar 10 - 11:42 AM

Peasant, you don't know what the fuck you are talking about. Come to the area where I live and see what's happening - an area that has elected one of two fascist MEP's, mainly because of apathy amongst the electorate. Discover what a bunch of criminal thugs the BNP is, how ethnic minorities are attacked and harrassed, how they want women to give up work to solve unemployment in the UK, how they beat up gays, put shit through people's letter boxes and...I could go on and on. Some of us are constant and active campaigners against the fascists so we're sure as hell not going to let them get their hands on our music. Folk music does not exist in a vacuum - it has to be a part of real life, and real life here is about beating the fascists. The fascists don't have, and never have had, any place in Britain, as Moseley found out, and their attempts to hijack British folk music are being actively repulsed by groups like Folk Against Fascism.

You are woefully ignorant about what is happening in Britain and about the British folk scene. Before sound off, find out what it is you're talking about. Until then just stop spouting such a load of shit.

Subject: RE: BS: Should you alienate Fascists?
From: theleveller
Date: 05 Mar 10 - 12:06 PM

Here, to enlighten your ignorance, is an excerpt from a recent email I received from the anti-fascist group, Hope Not Hate, regarding the BNP's policy towards women:

"One BNP Organiser recently said "Rape is simply sex. Women enjoy sex, so rape cannot be such a terrible physical ordeal". Another leading BNP officer said that the answer to the current recession was for women to give up work. A BNP councillor in Stoke-on-Trent admitted "We want power, we want influence and we want progress - and if there's a little bit of misery, we'll play on that". And two BNP councillors have been convicted of assaulting their partners whilst in office but the BNP refused to expel them."

Now, how could I look my wife or my daughters in the eye if I ever sat down to share my music with people like that? You may be misanthropic or short-sighted enough to do so, but not me. Not ever. Not in any circumstances. Does that make the position clear?

Subject: RE: BS: Should you alienate Fascists?
From: Amergin
Date: 05 Mar 10 - 12:08 PM

Actually, the #1 Fascist has been around for many years, always comes around to stir up shit for a while then he leaves.

Subject: RE: BS: Should you alienate Fascists?
From: *#1 PEASANT*
Date: 05 Mar 10 - 01:11 PM

I don't think anyone can steal your music! But no matter what the reason for doing it if more people play the music the greater chance the music has of survival.

Again one does not have to agree with the politics but you should not worry about who enjoys your music.

Subject: RE: BS: Should you alienate Fascists?
From: Don(Wyziwyg)T
Date: 05 Mar 10 - 04:01 PM

""One BNP Organiser recently said "Rape is simply sex. Women enjoy sex, so rape cannot be such a terrible physical ordeal"".

There was another sentence to that statement that beggars belief:-

"Rape is simply sex. Women enjoy sex, so rape cannot be such a terrible physical ordeal". It's no worse than force feeding a woman chocolate"

____________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________

""Again one does not have to agree with the politics but you should not worry about who enjoys your music.""

We don't give a shit about them enjoying any music. What we are fighting against is their use of the music and the festivals to con the more gullible into supporting their aims.

Those aims consist of a totalitarian Britain, with blacks, gays, disabled, mentally ill, and anyone else they don't like removed.

Now do you get it Dickhead?

Don T.

Subject: RE: BS: Should you alienate Fascists?
From: VirginiaTam
Date: 05 Mar 10 - 07:04 PM

Bothers me that at their rally they encouraged an 11 or 12 year old girl to burn a golliwog doll while chanting some rubbish about its being a murderer and rapist and such.

At least black British comediennes have a tolerant attitude to the BNP. Heard a young woman on some BEEB Radio 4 comedy say she is all for the BNP repatriation policy. She would volunteer in a minute. Go visit family for a few months paid for by the BNP and come back to UK for a while and then do it again. Free holidays!

Subject: RE: BS: Should you alienate Fascists?
From: LadyJean
Date: 05 Mar 10 - 11:26 PM

I am surprised that no one has mentioned that Woody Guthrie decorated his guitar with the sentiment "This Machine Kills Facists".

I don't know about the BNP, but, some years ago, I got a nasty email from a Neo Nazi who was trolling a yahoo group I belonged to. I responded by threatening to shoot him. (An empty threat, I have never fired a gun and have no intention of ever doing so.) The next email he sent was very appologetic. I think Facists may like being alienated.

Subject: RE: BS: Should you alienate Fascists?
From: *#1 PEASANT*
Date: 06 Mar 10 - 07:29 AM

Great example- Woody gets up there with his guitar and immediately alienates people who otherwise would have joined the folk music community. When you put politics out front you keep people away. They might have been fascists but might have also been people not so interested in political manefestos.They might even like songs about politics but not the feel that they are at a political rally first and a folk concert second.

Subject: RE: BS: Should you alienate Fascists?
From: GUEST,Helen Butcher
Date: 06 Mar 10 - 09:20 AM

Well said *#1 PEASANT*

Subject: RE: BS: Should you alienate Fascists?
From: VirginiaTam
Date: 06 Mar 10 - 10:00 AM

Interesting that facebook Helen Butcher is linked to so many BNP fakebook IDs. And that Conrad is mentioned in some of the wall postings. Someone better clean up his act on the Facebook fakes. The net is closing in.

Subject: RE: BS: Should you alienate Fascists?
From: Fred McCormick
Date: 06 Mar 10 - 11:20 AM

Peasant/Helen Butcher. Have you any idea how many people got into folk music because of Woody Guthrie? I can tell you it was far more than were ever alienated by his anti-fascism and his Communism and his belief that all human beings were created equal, irrespective of race or colour or religion. I'm talking about good solid socialists and freethinkers and anti-racists. People I would be proud to walk in the footsteps of, not the cowardly wretches and supposed "master race" members of the far right.

Subject: RE: BS: Should you alienate Fascists?
From: *#1 PEASANT*
Date: 06 Mar 10 - 11:57 AM

Yes! No one would dispute the importance of Woody Guthre in the spreading of the folk however, how many did he not reach by hanging political manifestos all over himself? Of course he lost the entire other side.

We simply can't afford to take the entire potential audience and toss away any of it!

Keep the politics in the lyrics in the music and in your heart and mind but dont give politics, religion, liberation, alternative lifeways the center stage.

I respect much more the folk singer who can sing both sides of an argument than I do the one who is biased and keeps to the one side.

Pete Seeger and Joe Hickerson come to mind as performers who often would bring both sides to a music session. My favorite lp example- the blue and the grey both sides on one record. So much richer than taking sides and using the musical stage to project your manefesto.

Conrad

Subject: RE: BS: Should you alienate Fascists?
From: Fred McCormick
Date: 06 Mar 10 - 12:02 PM

Conrad, if you think that I or any singer I know would waste our talents presenting the far right side of the argument, then you are sadly mistaken.

As Ewan MacColl put it, "Until not one fascist is left on this earth". Not until then would I even wipe my backside on far right points of view.

Subject: RE: BS: Should you alienate Fascists?
From: VirginiaTam
Date: 06 Mar 10 - 12:42 PM

The problem with keeping politics off the stage is this. If we benignly smile upon those who spread hate, they gain in credence and power. It is precisely on the stage where one should take a stand so they may know, we will not let hate gain the day.

Who knew in the early days of Hitler Youth what nightmare would come to pass? Only a very few vociferous ones saw how wrong it was. They were quickly silenced. No one could have predicted the final horrendous outcome.

I am not supporting like for like behaviour. No violence required. I wouldn't sink to that level. As Christ overturned the tables of the money lenders because they fouled His Father's House, then likewise we should reject hate mongers for befouling humanity.

If it means putting it on posters and wearing tshirts at concerts and sessions, then so be it. Better they should know before they attend that their views are not supported by the event organisers, the performers and most of the audience.

I would hope that maybe they might rethink their views. But then I am a Pollyanna at heart.

Subject: RE: BS: Should you alienate Fascists?
From: LadyJean
Date: 06 Mar 10 - 10:37 PM

In 1997 the city of Pittsburgh let the local Ku Klux Klan stand on the steps of the City County building and spout all manner of foulness. (I have never in my life heard quite so many obscenities.) A very large local crowd responded in kind, cursing almost as fluently, and offering to do interesting things to the guys in the hoods.
End result of this, aside from a very large bill for the city to keep the Klan idiots from being killed, was that one of the men came to understand how loathesome the Klan's philosophies were and quit.
I'm not sure what kind of point this makes, but it makes one.

Subject: RE: BS: Should you alienate Fascists?
From: VirginiaTam
Date: 07 Mar 10 - 02:32 AM

LadyJean

What cost to the City? For the sake of that one who turned away from the KKK, it was worth it. Good on the public for standing against a racist group. For the sake of the public who stood by and watched or learned of it second hand, it was worth it.

However, obscenity and threats were not needed. If the KKK wanted to pillory itself, then all that was needed was baskets of rotten fruit and veg for the public to express its opinion.

Reminds me of disclaimer some comedian used before his act...

The establishment has asked me to tell you, "No throwing of fruit onto the stage during the performance!" I am telling you in particular, "No throwing of canned fruit on the stage during MY performance!"

Subject: RE: BS: Should you alienate Fascists?
From: theleveller
Date: 07 Mar 10 - 06:32 AM

"We simply can't afford to take the entire potential audience and toss away any of it!"

Nope - only the fascist element. Just been listening to Dick Gaughan CD - that's political folk music for you, especially his version of Leon Rossellson's World Turned Upside Down. That song would suit Peasant - he's upside down with his head in the sand and his arse in the air, with a large 'Kick Me' sign on it.

Subject: RE: BS: Should you alienate Fascists?
From: GUEST,Shimrod
Date: 07 Mar 10 - 08:38 AM

Should you alienate Fascists? In my opinion, most definitely! But a much, much more important question is why are Fascists dangerous? And, sadly, there appear to be many people in the world who still do not know the answer to that question. I'm sure that one could up with several answers - but the most important one is connected with the way that Fascists demonise people who are different to themselves - a tendency that has repeatedly led to some of the foulest crimes in history.

A new, and terrifying, book has recently appeared (so new that I've only had time to skim it). It's called:

'Worse Than War: Genocide, Eliminationism. and the Ongoing Assault on Humanity' by Daniel Jonah Gold hagen (http://www.amazon.co.uk/Worse-Than-War-Genocide-Eliminationism/dp/1586487698).

From what I've gathered, so far, this work suggests that, throughout history, it's been depressingly easy to persuade populations to turn on and murder their neighbours. Some democracies (sadly, not all) at least try to curb such impulses - Fascist governments, on the other hand, have shown no such restraint.

Subject: RE: BS: Should you alienate Fascists?
From: theleveller
Date: 07 Mar 10 - 09:20 AM

I'll look out for that, Shimrod.

Peasant, whatever goes on in the folk scene in the USA, don't presume to tell us how to behave here in the UK. You are woefully ignorant of the history and traditions of this country, how they are reflected in our music and how they continues today. Instead of wallowing in the peurile world of fakelore that you have created, which bears more resemblance to a game of Dungeosn and Dragons than to actual reality, why not discover the long, long history of political radicalism and dissent in the UK, from The Peasants' Revolt and before, through to the massive upheaval of the English Civil War, with the radical ideas of the Levellers and Diggers, on to the Luddites, the Peterloo Massacre, the anti-fascist action of the 1930s, CND, the Grosvenor Square protests, the Miners' Strike, the Poll Tax Protests and right on up to the present day?

When you have done that (reading list available on request), then what you have to say may be taken a little more seriously. Until then get out of our faces and grow up.

Subject: RE: BS: Should you alienate Fascists?
From: VirginiaTam
Date: 07 Mar 10 - 10:22 AM

I presume peasant/conrad is busily making more fake BNP supporters on Facebook using any new mudcat IDs that show up in this thread.

He keeps spinning out his net with ever more baiting threads. And we poor silly cod sods keep getting caught in it, me included.

Subject: RE: BS: Should you alienate Fascists?
From: theleveller
Date: 07 Mar 10 - 10:54 AM

Sorry about spelling mistakes - not got me good eyes in.

Subject: RE: BS: Should you alienate Fascists?
From: Don(Wyziwyg)T
Date: 08 Mar 10 - 06:24 AM

""That song would suit Peasant - he's upside down with his head in the sand and his arse in the air, with a large 'Kick Me' sign on it.""

Don't knock it Leveller.

While he's in that position, we can at least be sure through which aperture he is talking.

Don T.

Subject: RE: BS: Should you alienate Fascists?
From: *#1 PEASANT*
Date: 13 Mar 10 - 09:48 PM

Grosvenor Square protests- I was living in london then....so was Bill Clinton or nearby...

Just listened to the Miner's strike bbc piece a few days ago....yes lovely things unions. Totally ruined our car industry, helped to ruin the coal industry in the UK and who knows what would have remained viaable in the Uk were it not for thatcher. But there you are. Had folkies remained neutral there would always be a party in power that could support them. But not when you start putting political manefestos and hatred of others with opposing views ahead of the music.

Subject: RE: BS: Should you alienate Fascists?
From: GUEST,stringsinger
Date: 14 Mar 10 - 12:41 PM

Don't alienate the person, alienate the ideology. Refuse to accept it.
Dialogue whenever and however possible.

Frank

Subject: RE: BS: Should you alienate Fascists?
From: *#1 PEASANT*
Date: 14 Mar 10 - 01:14 PM

Now that is a good response stringsinger. Exactly. One of the easiest ways to bring about change is by dialog- if people believe they are not welcome as in they have to cross a big "folksingers against fascism" banner you will never have a chance to interact.
BRAVO! FRANK

Conrad

Subject: RE: BS: Should you alienate Fascists?
From: Don(Wyziwyg)T
Date: 14 Mar 10 - 01:26 PM

""One of the easiest ways to bring about change is by dialog- if people believe they are not welcome as in they have to cross a big "folksingers against fascism" banner you will never have a chance to interact.""

Just pray you never find yourself in the position of trying to interact with these guys, especially if you are trying to persuade them to change their attitudes.

They usually interact with baseball bats, and bricks.

Why don't you wake up, or failing that shut up.

You obviously don't have a clue what you are talking about (judging by your other threads) on any subject.

Don T.

Subject: RE: BS: Should you alienate Fascists?
From: akenaton
Date: 14 Mar 10 - 01:40 PM

The voice of reason!!........:0)

Subject: RE: BS: Should you alienate Fascists?
From: Don Firth
Date: 14 Mar 10 - 03:22 PM

Do these look like the faces of reason?    CLICKY.

How about these lads?    CLICKY #2.

A little calm discussion with these fellows?    CLICKY #3.

Maybe here?    CLICKY #4

Some may be too young to remember, but we've had to deal with these people before.    CLICKY #5 and CLICKY #6.

And if you disagree with what they have in mind, or if you happen to be the wrong color, or if you belong to the wrong religion, or if you associate with "the wrong people," or if you are physically or mentally handicapped in some way, or you happen to have been born with the wrong genes—or if someone in the regime just doesn't happen to like you—this is what can happen to you—and yours.    CLICKY #7.

No. We've been there before. I don't think we want to go there again.

Don Firth

P. S. Don't think these neo-fascists should be taken seriously? Well, early on, Adolf Hitler wasn't taken seriously either.

Subject: RE: BS: Should you alienate Fascists?
From: akenaton
Date: 14 Mar 10 - 03:40 PM

Sorry Don....I've looked and looked, but I just can't seem to pick you out :0(

Are you the one with the guitar?   :0)

Subject: RE: BS: Should you alienate Fascists?
From: Don Firth
Date: 14 Mar 10 - 03:46 PM

Stuff it, Ake. Considering your prejudices against certain classes of people, you're a fine one to try to make snide remarks on this subject.

Don Firth

Subject: RE: BS: Should you alienate Fascists?
From: Little Hawk
Date: 14 Mar 10 - 07:59 PM

I suspect that my Dachshund is a closet Fascist. I know that he harbors ambitions to dominate the world. I've seen him practicing the straight-arm salute when he thought I wasn't looking.

So I walked into the room today, shook my finger at him, and yelled, "You don't fool me, you rotten little Fascist cur!"

He jumped up in rage, bit my ankle, and then peed on my shoes!

You just can't trust them at all, can you?

Subject: RE: BS: Should you alienate Fascists?
From: Don Firth
Date: 14 Mar 10 - 10:29 PM

Pardon the thread drift, but this is long overdue.

Ake, you seem to be quite confused about the differences between "liberal" and "fascist" as political philosophies. Using an expression such as the oxymoronic "liberal fascist" as an epithet is a meaningless attempt at an insult and displays the depth of your ignorance regarding political science, not to mention history as well. Here's a little primer for you.

Main Entry: lib•er•al
Function: adjective
1 : marked by generosity
2 : broad-minded, especially not bound by authoritarianism, orthodoxy, or traditional forms
3 a : of, favoring, or based upon the principles of liberalism; b capitalized of or constituting a political party advocating or associated with the principles of political liberalism; especially : of or constituting a political party in the United Kingdom associated with ideals of individual, especially economic, freedom, greater individual participation in government, and constitutional, political, and administrative reforms designed to secure these objectives

Main Entry: liberal
Function: noun
Date: 1820
a person who is liberal: as a : one who is open-minded or not strict in the observance of orthodox, traditional, or established forms or ways b capitalized : a member or supporter of a liberal political party c : an advocate or adherent of liberalism especially in individual rights

####

Main Entry: fas•cism
Function: noun
Date: 1921
1 often capitalized : a political philosophy, movement, or regime (as that of the Fascisti) that exalts nation and often race above the individual and that stands for a centralized autocratic government headed by a dictatorial leader, severe economic and social regimentation, and forcible suppression of opposition
2 : a tendency toward or actual exercise of strong autocratic or dictatorial control

Further:

Liberalism (from the Latin liberalis, "of freedom") is the belief in the importance of liberty and equal rights.[ Liberals espouse a wide array of views depending on their understanding of these principles, but most liberals support such fundamental ideas as constitutions, liberal democracy, free and fair elections, human rights, free trade, secular society, and the market economy. These ideas are often accepted even among political groups that do not openly profess a liberal ideological orientation. Liberalism encompasses several intellectual trends and traditions, but the dominant variants are classical liberalism, which became popular in the 18th century, and social liberalism, which became popular in the 20th century.

####

Liberalism first became a powerful force in the Age of Enlightenment, rejecting several foundational assumptions that dominated most earlier theories of government, such as hereditary status, established religion, absolute monarchy, and the Divine Right of Kings. Early liberal thinkers such as John Locke, who is often regarded as the founder of liberalism as a distinct philosophical tradition, employed the concept of natural rights and the social contract to argue that the rule of law should replace autocratic government, that rulers were subject to the consent of the governed, and that private individuals had a fundamental right to life, liberty, and property.

####

Roger Griffin, political theorist, Oxford Brooks University, England, writes:

[Fascism is] a genuinely revolutionary, trans-class form of anti-liberal, and in the last analysis, anti-conservative nationalism. As such it is an ideology deeply bound up with modernization and modernity, one which has assumed a considerable variety of external forms to adapt itself to the particular historical and national context in which it appears, and has drawn a wide range of cultural and intellectual currents, both left and right, anti-modern and pro-modern, to articulate itself as a body of ideas, slogans, and doctrine. In the inter-war period it manifested itself primarily in the form of an elite-led "armed party" which attempted, mostly unsuccessfully, to generate a populist mass movement through a liturgical style of politics and a programme of radical policies which promised to overcome a threat posed by international socialism, to end the degeneration affecting the nation under liberalism, and to bring about a radical renewal of its social, political and cultural life as part of what was widely imagined to be the new era being inaugurated in Western civilization. The core mobilizing myth of fascism which conditions its ideology, propaganda, style of politics and actions is the vision of the nation's imminent rebirth from decadence.

Robert O. Paxton, American historian, Columbia University, New York, writes that fascism is:

. . . a form of political behavior marked by obsessive preoccupation with community decline, humiliation or victimhood and by compensatory cults of unity, energy and purity, in which a mass-based party of committed nationalist militants, working in uneasy but effective collaboration with traditional elites, abandons democratic liberties and pursues with redemptive violence and without ethical or legal restraints goals of internal cleansing and external expansion.

Don't bother to thank me, Ake, I am only too happy to help. But DO try to keep them straight, okay?

Don Firth

Subject: RE: BS: Should you alienate Fascists?
From: Little Hawk
Date: 14 Mar 10 - 11:07 PM

It's very easy to be fooled by words. People (specially politicians) constantly misuse them in order to push some agenda they have in mind. If you want to find out who is a "fascist", you must look at how they behave toward others, what their implicit desires and intentions are, that sort of thing. You must watch and see how they use and abuse power. They may not fit your rigorous definition of the word "fascist" as lifted from the dictionary....but they may still be essentially fascist anyway.

And that's up to each one of us to decide.

I know what "fascist" means to me. It might mean something different to you. If it did, that wouldn't surprise me a bit...I know that people give words meanings according to their own present desires, not due to some ultimate standard of truth.

If your definition of "fascism" is a bit different from mine...fine...everybody's definition is probably a bit different, and no one here is the final authority on which is the best definition...nor is any dictionary. It's all just somebody's opinion, driven by the culture and political mythology they grew up in, the "good and evil" stereotypes they choose to obsess about, the things they're heard from others, and the ax they are presently grinding.

Subject: RE: BS: Should you alienate Fascists?
From: Don Firth
Date: 15 Mar 10 - 02:38 AM

You're doing it again, Little Hawk.

There is a bit of wiggle room in some words, and the word "fascist" is tossed around quite—ahem—liberally by those who don't really know what it means beyond "I disagree with you." But to political scientists, "liberal" and "fascist" are distinct and mutually exclusive schools of thought.

And "liberal fascist" IS an oxymoron, i.e., a self-contradictory expression.

If you're into the Alice in Wonderland idea that "words mean what I say they mean" rather than the definitions that most people who are knowledgeable in a particular field use, then language itself becomes little more that gibberish and meaningful communication becomes impossible.

I'll take a good Webster's any day, thank you.

Subject: RE: BS: Should you alienate Fascists?
From: akenaton
Date: 15 Mar 10 - 04:08 AM

Perhaps I need to ammend my words.

The inverted commas are meant to signify illiberal purporting to be liberal.....the people they refer to, do not change.

These people (you know who you are) do liberal ideology a great deal of harm. They basically suffer from a disease indemic to a large section of the left....hypocrisy.

Subject: RE: BS: Should you alienate Fascists?
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 15 Mar 10 - 04:11 AM

Don, I agree that the clarity is overdue. However, "liberal" has a different meaning in economic analysis which I am glad you eschew but "fascism" has other meanings in political analysis, and they are I think in many cases even narrower than the explanations you adopt, and in that latter respect I would I think go further than you do.

Subject: RE: BS: Should you alienate Fascists?
From: akenaton
Date: 15 Mar 10 - 04:18 AM

People of this ilk, are often referred to as thought police....hence the fascist tag.

This forum contains numerous examples, complete with furry jackboots!

Don is simply a disgusting bully, another trait endemic on this forum.

Why do I hang around?.....because there are a handful of the best and most insightful people I have ever met, between these pages......and I'm interested to see if light ever penetrates into the darker corners.....maybe aye, maybe naw, maybe hee haw!!

Subject: RE: BS: Should you alienate Fascists?
From: akenaton
Date: 15 Mar 10 - 04:34 AM

Liberalism can rather easily become a form of fascism if the thought police are given too much rein.

When people are attacked for their political or social views and forced or coersed into following the party line.

When freedom of speech and thought are proscribed, and people painted as morally bad for holding differing views.

This is exactly what happens here on many subjects, if one does not toe the "liberal" line, one is rarely opposed by reasoned argument, but rather by a torrent of personal abuse

Liberal or illiberal? Fascist or democratic?

Subject: RE: BS: Should you alienate Fascists?
From: Ruth Archer
Date: 15 Mar 10 - 05:16 AM

"if people believe they are not welcome as in they have to cross a big "folksingers against fascism" banner you will never have a chance to interact."

First of all, the name of the organisation is "folk against fascism" - and it was formed because of the specific political agenda of the BNP to co-opt folk CULTURE - music, dance, song, customs and traditions - into their little right-wing package of Englishness.

If people who have recorded music do NOT want that music sold and marketed in any way as benefiting or representing a political party which they find abhorrent, they have a right to say so. If people take part in traditional customs, or morris dancing, or ceilidh dancing, or informal sessions, and they do not want these things branded, by extension, as representations of a far-right ideology, they have the right to say so.

I am far more concerned about losing our folk culture to the manipulative influences of the far right than I am about offending a few fascists. If someone self-defines as a fascist, I am not particularly interested in interacting with him, or in fact with apologists for fascists. If you want to have tea parties with fascists in Maryland or wherever, off you go. But in the UK, FAF was a specific response to a specific set of problems. Some people will agree with it and some won't, but I am far more concerned with engaging the politically ambiguous or "apolitical" members of the folk community, and getting them to understand what FAF is all about, than I am in arguing with fascists. Life's too short.

Right - off to a FAF meeting. Hoefully see many of you on 2 May at the South Bank Centre for the FAF Village Fete.

Subject: RE: BS: Should you alienate Fascists?
From: akenaton
Date: 15 Mar 10 - 07:50 AM

Jesus Ruth.....We, the Socialists and Commies, were only too happy to Co-opt and re-form folk music in our image.

Why the double standards?.....These double standards are much more dangerous than Mr Griffin, or any other politician.

They perform exactly the same political function as the "race card", or the "religion card", they divide society into them and us.
We should always measure our opinions with reason, not political dogma.

Frank Hamilton is correct and his words remind me of the parable of the "Sun and the North Wind"

They had a disagreement over who was the most powerful.
They saw a traveller on the road and agreed that the one who could remove the travellers cloak would be the most powerful.

The North wind blew with all his might, threw hail and snow at the traveller but the man drew his cloak ever more tightly around him until the North Wind could blow no more.
The Sun sent down a pleasant warming ray on the traveller, who within minutes sat down at the roadside, removed his cloak, laid it beneath his head and fell asleep.

Subject: RE: BS: Should you alienate Fascists?
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 15 Mar 10 - 08:11 AM

That is complete bolleaux, Ake. Many US writers and performers, and many UK writers and performers of the revival wrote the songs they wished to write, and performed the songs they wished to perform, but at least in the UK they were largely careful to analyse the descent of folk music to see whether "industrial folk" did in fact exist. The ethos was of analysis of folk music, not distortion.

The BNP seek to corrupt its nature.

Subject: RE: BS: Should you alienate Fascists?
From: *#1 PEASANT*
Date: 15 Mar 10 - 08:30 AM

One thought some may be missing is that tolerating others and keeping politics in the background so that all will feel they can participate does not require acceptance of the theories or actions of individuals or groups. I object to coming to events and hearing political manefestos before I can hear the music for which I came. Yes songs are historically sung at political rallies. I do not attend political rallies. That is why when I go to hear folk music I don't want some lecture on politics other than as a backgrounder for the history of the song. I think putting politics in the background will help bring more people in and if the audience does also refrain from the political rally mentality we can broaden the audience for folk music as a whole rather than turning anyone off with political manefestos that are often given the stage.

Subject: RE: BS: Should you alienate Fascists?
From: theleveller
Date: 15 Mar 10 - 08:48 AM

So basically, Peasant, you don't want to alienate fascists but you do want to alienate anyone with a political agenda? To my mind that considerably narrows the audience and the performer base rather than widening it. I'd prefer to keep the status quo.

Subject: RE: BS: Should you alienate Fascists?
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 15 Mar 10 - 09:21 AM

I've never heard a song by "Yes" at a political rally. Isn't Rick Wakeman a bit passee?