BS: Brexit and other UK politics thread 4

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit and other UK politics thread 4
From: The Sandman
Date: 14 Dec 25 - 02:50 AM

Mean while,Tommy Robinson’s London ‘Christmas service’ draws about 1,000 people

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit and other UK politics thread 4
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 14 Dec 25 - 04:10 AM

Yes, I know I shouldn't feed it BWM but shooting fish in a barrel is such fun :-D

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit and other UK politics thread 4
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 14 Dec 25 - 04:31 AM

Good point Dave.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit and other UK politics thread 4
From: Nigel Parsons
Date: 14 Dec 25 - 01:36 PM

From: The Sandman - PM

you should vote liberal. if you want to rejoin Europe.
I live in a country that is in Europe. Being patronising is breaking mudcat rules

I also live in a country that is in Europe. It's called Wales.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit and other UK politics thread 4
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 14 Dec 25 - 02:39 PM

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit and other UK politics thread 4
From: Nigel Parsons - PM
Date: 14 Dec 25 - 01:36 PM

From: The Sandman - PM

you should vote liberal. if you want to rejoin Europe.
I live in a country that is in Europe. Being patronising is breaking mudcat rules

I also live in a country that is in Europe. It's called Wales.

So do I, Nigel - it’s called England. I’m sure we can agree that our choices of parties we vote for have no bearing whatsoever on our countries continuing to be in Europe.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit and other UK politics thread 4
From: Nigel Parsons
Date: 14 Dec 25 - 03:31 PM

Wales is geographically part of Europe, I was referring to europe in the political sense, which everYbody else appeared to understand.

If you mean 'the EU', not 'Europe', why not just say so. It's less typing (so less room for typos).

Some people just give false information in vague terms in order to be able to 'row back' later. Achieving clarity is not really that difficult, surely.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit and other UK politics thread 4
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 15 Dec 25 - 06:46 AM

It seems to be to some, Nigel...

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit and other UK politics thread 4
From: r.padgett
Date: 17 Dec 25 - 02:41 AM

Drs strike ~ Streeting and management side quote percentage rises from a depresses starting point! Current salaries is the problem

So talk in terms of current salaries and find that comparison is much less ~ What is the current pay and what should it be? Percentages are a complete Red Herring

Forget percentages what should Drs with all the training taken over many years

We are short of Drs and Dentists and within our NHS the care for elderly and needy ~ it is a question of cost allocation within the UK budget, now is it not?
Ray

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit and other UK politics thread 4
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 17 Dec 25 - 07:01 AM

I do not like Streeting in the slightest. Far more suited to the 'other side' to be in charge of anything to do with healthcare. In fact, I suspect he would be too right wing for some previous Tory governments

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit and other UK politics thread 4
From: r.padgett
Date: 24 Dec 25 - 02:15 AM

Just announced on BBC news that Free speech is under threat because of the protests of P ~~ Action

This whole debacle was caused by the multiple deaths in Palestine and the UK Govt of UK supporting the transgressor and not working hard enough to save deaths in that war

Communication is now instantaneous and political parties should be minded of the status quo and the hot potato

Ray

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit and other UK politics thread 4
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 12 Jan 26 - 07:06 AM

And in other news, the Iraq-born, immigrant, tax-dodging, former Chancellor of the Exchequer, Nadhim Zahawi, is the latest Tory rat to desert their sinking ship to join Reform UK, the limited company posing as a political party.

Matthew 7:15-17 applies…

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit and other UK politics thread 4
From: r.padgett
Date: 12 Jan 26 - 07:36 AM

If Farage and Reform get their ugly shoes in the door with their policies and the electorate fail to recognise their future politics god help us

Ray

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit and other UK politics thread 4
From: The Sandman
Date: 12 Jan 26 - 10:58 AM

Farage is a racist ConservativeReform UK's economic policy focuses on significant tax cuts, deregulation, and spending reductions, particularly by slashing "wasteful" government expenditure, scrapping net-zero targets, and reforming welfare to fund lower income tax, corporation tax, and stamp duty, though leader
Nigel Farage has recently scaled back immediate promises due to fiscal concerns, prioritizing fiscal responsibility and "performance-related" tax cuts after achieving spending cuts. Key proposals include higher tax-free allowances, abolishing business rates for SMEs, and leveraging Bank of England debt interest savings, aiming to boost business and individual incentives.
Key Economic Pillars

    Taxation:
       Lower Income Tax: Raise the personal allowance to £20,000, aiming to take millions out of income tax.
       Business Tax Cuts: Reduce corporation tax, raise the VAT threshold to £150k, and scrap business rates for small firms.
       Inheritance Tax: Scrap it for family farms and businesses.
       Funding: Finance these partly by taxing large multinationals and redirecting Bank of England debt interest payments.
    Spending & Savings:
       Spending Cuts: Target £50bn+ in savings from government waste, including scrapping HS2 and cutting foreign aid.
       Welfare Reform: Tighten Personal Independence Payment (PIP) eligibility to focus on work, saving billions.
       Net Zero: Scrap net-zero targets to save £30bn annually, viewing them as costly.
    Regulation & Business:
       Deregulation: Implement a "bonfire of business regulation" post-Brexit to boost competitiveness.
       Pro-Business Stance: Foster a culture of hard work and entrepreneurship, bringing business expertise into government.

Recent Shifts

    Scale-Back: Farage has moderated promises, stating major tax cuts aren't currently feasible due to the national debt, shifting focus to spending cuts first.
    Focus on Fiscal Responsibility: Emphasis is now on proving savings before enacting large tax cuts, reassuring markets.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit and other UK politics thread 4
From: r.padgett
Date: 13 Jan 26 - 02:31 AM

Advertising products and initial attraction is fine until you buy and try ~But it is too late then!

transfer payments are largely collecting by taxes and other means, the monies to maintain vital expenditures from defence to NHS welfare payments

US and Farage are far right Capitalist who care not for the majority of poorer people

Look at the mess US got by voting for Trump's vision of a Far right country
Ray

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit and other UK politics thread 4
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 13 Jan 26 - 03:14 AM

Sandman - would to give us a link to the source of your C&P of 12 Jan 26 - 10:58 AM please?

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit and other UK politics thread 4
From: The Sandman
Date: 13 Jan 26 - 03:33 AM

backwoodsman if you google refom economic policy it comes uop with that A I OVERVIEW.
FaRAge is a racist Conservative, was my own comment.
Backwoodsman, I do not believe that Farage has any economic policiues that would be successfulk

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit and other UK politics thread 4
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 13 Jan 26 - 06:55 AM

I agree with you about Farage’s lack of policies.

For clarity’s sake, in future would you indicate in your posts which parts are your words and where you are quoting from another source please?

Here’s what my search-engine came up with (Duck Duck Go) - fairly similar to yours, but not identical…

“Overview of Reform UK's Economic Policies
Reform UK, a right-wing political party in the UK, has proposed various economic policies aimed at reducing taxes and increasing public spending. Their approach has evolved, especially in light of recent economic challenges.

Taxation Policies
Proposed Tax Cuts

Total Estimated Cost: Initially proposed tax cuts were estimated at £90 billion per year.
Key Proposals:
Reduce corporation tax from 25% to 15%.
Raise the personal tax allowance to £20,000.
Abolish inheritance tax on family farms and businesses.
Cut fuel duty by 20p per litre.

Recent Changes
The party has recently acknowledged that substantial tax cuts are not realistic due to the current state of public finances. They are now focusing on more modest tax reductions.
Spending Policies
Increased Public Spending

Total Estimated Cost: Proposed spending increases amount to £53 billion per year.
Key Areas of Spending:
NHS: £17 billion per year.
Defence: £14 billion per year.
Policing and prisons: Additional funding included.

Cost-Saving Measures
Reform UK aims to reduce government spending by £150 billion per year through cuts in public services, debt interest, and working-age benefits.

Immigration and Welfare
The party plans to deport 600,000 unauthorized migrants, claiming this would save £7 billion over the Parliament.
Significant welfare cuts are proposed, including reassessing disability claims to reduce costs.
Reform UK's economic policies reflect a commitment to tax reduction and increased spending, although recent statements indicate a shift towards more cautious fiscal management.”

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit and other UK politics thread 4
From: r.padgett
Date: 13 Jan 26 - 11:57 AM

Reducing Taxation in these key area brings up where Taxes would need to be increased ~ the poorer people of UK such as small businesses have had taxes and NIc contributions raised ~ some changes needed there!

GDP has suffered and part time employed
lost jobs ~ hopefully changes will occur

The well off are not contributing enough and difficult to know the best way to tackle this

Yes tax free pay MUST go up ? welfare benefits are difficult to sort but we so not live in US of A

Ray

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit and other UK politics thread 4
From: The Sandman
Date: 13 Jan 26 - 01:49 PM

regardless of income tax, every person regardless of income, pays tax on what they buy, so in a consumer capitalist society people need to have money to consume goods that are produced, otherwise the economy stagnates or goes backwards, as the rich have more money they need to be encouraged to spend, increasing tax on that, they can afford at the same not discouraging poorer people from spending needs careful thought.
Backwoodsman, I hope the cat next door has not been digging up your garden.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit and other UK politics thread 4
From: Nigel Parsons
Date: 13 Jan 26 - 07:17 PM

Sandman: regardless of income tax, every person regardless of income, pays tax on what they buy,

VAT (Value added tax) was a replacement for 'luxury tax'.
The idea is that you only pay 'purchase tax' on the purchase of 'luxury goods/services'.
Basic foodstuffs are zero-rated for VAT

Please review your comments.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit and other UK politics thread 4
From: The Sandman
Date: 14 Jan 26 - 03:20 AM

n the UK, approximately
half of all household expenditure is subject to the standard 20% VAT rate, while the remainder falls under other classifications, including zero-rated, exempt, or reduced rates.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit and other UK politics thread 4
From: The Sandman
Date: 14 Jan 26 - 03:54 AM

The Conservative party was responsible for Brexit, Nigel is a supporter of the Cionservatives

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit and other UK politics thread 4
From: The Sandman
Date: 14 Jan 26 - 04:16 AM

According to data for 2026, the breakdown of VAT across the economy is as follows:

    Standard Rate (20%): Covers roughly 50% of household expenditure.
    Reduced Rate (5%): Applies to approximately 2.5% of expenditure, including items like domestic fuel, power, and children's car seats.
    Zero-Rated (0%) and Exempt: These categories account for the remaining 47.5% of expenditure.

Key Zero-Rated Categories
While the exact percentage for zero-rating alone (separate from "exempt") is often grouped in high-level economic reporting, major components of the zero-rated economy include:

    Basic Food: Most groceries (bread, milk, vegetables).
    Children’s Items: Clothing, footwear, and car seats.
    Publications: Books, newspapers, magazines, and digital e-publications.
    Transport: Passenger travel, such as international and domestic flights and train tickets.
    Health: Sanitary products (zero-rated since 2021) and prescriptions.
    Exports: Goods intended for export outside the UK are typically zero-rated to ensure international competitiveness.

For further details on specific item classifications, you can refer to the official VAT rates for goods and services on the GOV.UK website.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit and other UK politics thread 4
From: Raggytash
Date: 14 Jan 26 - 05:26 AM

Would someone explain indirect taxation for the hard of thinking. I can't be bothered.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit and other UK politics thread 4
From: Nigel Parsons
Date: 14 Jan 26 - 06:50 AM

Google sums it up quite neatly:
An indirect tax is a tax levied on the sale of goods and services, which is collected by the seller (an intermediary) and ultimately passed on to the final consumer through a higher price. The consumer pays the tax as part of the purchase price, often without realizing the exact amount, while the seller is responsible for remitting the tax revenue to the government.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit and other UK politics thread 4
From: Nigel Parsons
Date: 14 Jan 26 - 06:55 AM

"The Conservative party was responsible for Brexit, Nigel is a supporter of the Cionservatives"

Yes, I support the Conservative Party.
I also admit that the party did a poor job of implementing Brexit.
At least the Conservatives allowed a referendum, unlike Labour who promised one, then went back on that promise.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit and other UK politics thread 4
From: Raggytash
Date: 14 Jan 26 - 07:34 AM

Thanks Nigel, however I don't think that will explain to the hard of thinking that there is still an element of tax in the price you pay for a tin of beans that is zero-tax rated.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit and other UK politics thread 4
From: The Sandman
Date: 14 Jan 26 - 09:06 AM

i understand p[erfectly well that if something is zero rated the is no VAT.
Before i was a full time musician, I ran five shops[ for 7 years, and was involved with customs and excise in producing vat returns on goods, So I am fully aware of ZERO RATED AND NON ZERO RATED ITEMS

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit and other UK politics thread 4
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 14 Jan 26 - 09:22 AM

Perfectly true, Raggy. Whilst there is no VAT in the price, there is in the price an element of recovery of taxes paid by the producer, manufacturer, haulier, distributor, and retailer - not least being Corporation Tax, Business Rates, ‘Ers NICs, etc.

At the end of the day, all taxation is paid by the consumer by virtue of the fact that the price he/she pays includes taxes levied at each stage, and on each part, of the supply-chain.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit and other UK politics thread 4
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 14 Jan 26 - 10:42 AM

I think it would be a lot simpler if everyone was taxed on either income or profit. There could still be different levels of tax to allow for massive incomes or profits

Come the day when I take up my benign dictatorship...

:-D

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit and other UK politics thread 4
From: The Sandman
Date: 15 Jan 26 - 01:38 AM

Income tax is not an efficient form of collecting tax because the rich employ accountants tr evade paying , that is not a reason for abolishing it. removing loopholes might help.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit and other UK politics thread 4
From: Nigel Parsons
Date: 15 Jan 26 - 06:00 AM

Sandman:
Income tax is not an efficient form of collecting tax because the rich employ accountants tr evade paying , that is not a reason for abolishing it. removing loopholes might help.

If you 'ran 5 shops for 7 years' and dealt with the VAT (Note capitalisation of the Initialism), I would hope that someone pointed out to you the difference between 'evasion' and 'avoidance'. Any accountant advising on evading/evasion risks being struck-off and prosecuted. 'loopholes' relate to avoidance, not to evasion.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit and other UK politics thread 4
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 15 Jan 26 - 06:59 AM

Spot on, Nigel.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit and other UK politics thread 4
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 15 Jan 26 - 07:50 AM

Taxing income and profits is the fairest way of collecting taxes.

If someone gives you money for labour - Pay income tax

If you make money by selling goods or services - Pay tax on sales

Simplistic of course but fair :-)

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit and other UK politics thread 4
From: The Sandman
Date: 15 Jan 26 - 08:41 AM

I agree
avoidance of income tax has the same moral effect as evasion.
quote AI



QUOTE AI
Nadhim Zahawi: Although not criminally prosecuted for tax evasion, the former Conservative Party Chairman and Chancellor was sacked in early 2023 following an investigation into his tax affairs. He reached a settlement with HM Revenue & Customs (HMRC) totaling an estimated £4.8 million, which included a 30% penalty for being "careless" rather than "deliberate" in his failure to pay the correct amount.
Lord Taylor of Warwick (John Taylor): A Conservative peer who was convicted in 2011 on six counts of false accounting during the parliamentary expenses scandal. He was sentenced to 12 months in prison for falsely claiming £11,277.
Lord Hanningfield (Paul White): A Conservative peer convicted in 2011 of false accounting related to his parliamentary expenses. He was sentenced to nine months in prison for falsely claiming more than £30,000.
Charlie Elphicke: A former Conservative MP for Dover, he was prosecuted and sentenced to two years in prison in 2020, though his charges were for sexual assault rather than tax crimes. He later faced court action for failing to pay the £35,000 prosecution costs.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit and other UK politics thread 4
From: Rain Dog
Date: 15 Jan 26 - 10:01 AM

"I agree
avoidance of income tax has the same moral effect as evasion."

So should we do away with the personal allowance, ISA's etc ?

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit and other UK politics thread 4
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 15 Jan 26 - 11:01 AM

”So should we do away with the personal allowance, ISA's etc ?”

It’s very strange isn’t it, Raindog, that the hard-of-thinking never seem to understand that Tax Avoidance is perfectly legal, it is practised by almost all of us in one way or another, and that they imagine it’s only the wealthy who are guilty of the immorality of avoiding paying tax?

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit and other UK politics thread 4
From: Nigel Parsons
Date: 15 Jan 26 - 11:23 AM

Sandman: "I agree avoidance of income tax has the same moral effect as evasion."

I don't know who you think you're agreeing with, because no-one else seems to have claimed that there is a moral equivalence between the two.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit and other UK politics thread 4
From: Rain Dog
Date: 15 Jan 26 - 11:39 AM

The UK government are trying to cut down tax avoidance schemes.

Closing in on promoters of marketed tax avoidance

Just simplify the rules.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit and other UK politics thread 4
From: MaJoC the Filk
Date: 15 Jan 26 - 02:59 PM

.... One of things that's been able to reliably enrage me is the English press's obsession with U-turns, always headlined as if *spat*. I blame Maggie Hatchett's speechwriters for pulling the "You turn if you like" stunt, after which the least hint of anybody in public office changing their mind is an instant flogging offence in the eyes of certain newspapers.

I've quoted this before, but it's still valid:

Sometimes scientists change their minds. New developments cause a rethink. If this bothers you, consider how much damage is being done to the world by people for whom new developments do not cause a rethink.
    -- Pratchett, Stewart and Cohen: The Science of Discworld, 2nd edition

And so: This week, there was the unedifying sound of much Pavlovian synchronised chanting from the ranks of the Opposition benches. No brains were observed to be in gear during this sorry spectacle. Happily, the baying seems to have stopped after one of their own attempted to defect to a limited company masquerading as a party, and (in an act of supreme intelligence) happened to leave a copy of his resignation speech lying around.* He left, not so much with head held high, as with the print of a boot on the other end of his anatomy.

* Sam Coates, on on Sky News, was observed to be highly amused.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit and other UK politics thread 4
From: The Sandman
Date: 15 Jan 26 - 03:29 PM

i agree, it is good to be flexible rather than dogmatic , its not over till the fat lady sings

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit and other UK politics thread 4
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 15 Jan 26 - 03:38 PM

One of my friends commented that, by defecting from the Tories to Reform UK Ltd., Jenrick simultaneously raised the average IQ of both Parties.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit and other UK politics thread 4
From: Nigel Parsons
Date: 15 Jan 26 - 04:02 PM

Majoc:
Sometimes scientists change their minds. New developments cause a rethink. If this bothers you, consider how much damage is being done to the world by people for whom new developments do not cause a rethink.
    -- Pratchett, Stewart and Cohen: The Science of Discworld, 2nd edition

I think this is provoked not so much by the change of mind itself, as by the rapidity of the change.
In under two years the government have brought in at least 10 policies which have later been fully or partially reversed. This doesn't seem to be because new information has come to light, but because the policies (and their effects, or expected popularity) weren't fully thought through before bringing them in.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit and other UK politics thread 4
From: Nigel Parsons
Date: 15 Jan 26 - 04:06 PM

Backwoodsman: Your friend was hardly being original. I knew I had heard the comment before, but wouldn't have been able to pin it down myself. Google helps:

""Raised the IQ of both" refers to witty remarks, notably by Will Rogers about Okies moving to California and Robert Muldoon about Kiwis moving to Australia, implying that people leaving a less-developed area for a more advanced one (or vice-versa) boosts the average intelligence of both regions by shifting populations, highlighting migration patterns and regional disparities in opportunities. It's often cited as a humorous way to describe population migration's statistical effect on average intelligence, sometimes called the "Will Rogers Phenomenon" in medicine for similar statistical paradoxes."

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit and other UK politics thread 4
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 15 Jan 26 - 04:37 PM

Aaaaahh! Even at my advanced age I learn something new every day! Thanks for that, Nigel.

I’m sure that even you will have to admit it’s quite amusing! ;-)

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit and other UK politics thread 4
From: The Sandman
Date: 16 Jan 26 - 03:20 AM

the expulsion of a former cabinet minster, to Reform, has strengthened BADENOCHS profile.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit and other UK politics thread 4
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 16 Jan 26 - 03:36 AM

Reform is fast becoming the Monday Club of today. Enoch would be proud.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit and other UK politics thread 4
From: The Sandman
Date: 16 Jan 26 - 04:34 AM

Reform may possibly split the right and weaken the right vote[ hopefully]
Badenoch has another alternative and that is move to the centre, and pick up some liberal and labour voters, it is difficult to predict, by expelling the former cabinet minister she has shown some political nous

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit and other UK politics thread 4
From: The Sandman
Date: 16 Jan 26 - 04:35 AM

what is the differences policy wise between labour and conservatives?

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit and other UK politics thread 4
From: Nigel Parsons
Date: 16 Jan 26 - 06:30 AM

If there is no clear difference between the policies of Labour and Conservative then that only serves to emphasise the need for an end to the 'two-party' stitch-up of UK politics. The Lib Dems having traditionally been somewhere between the two viewpoints must have been rendered virtually pointless.
That leaves Reform, 'Your Party', The Green Party, and Monster Raving Loonies and Nationalists as the outliers (plus a couple of small independents)