wife of ushers well

Subject: wife of ushers well
From: marty g
Date: 17 Apr 00 - 10:59 PM

have been listening to " THE WIFE OF USHERS WELL " on the john roberts & tony barrand tape " dark ships in the forest " and find myself at a loss as to what some of the words mean. what is the part about feathered by his holy hand all about. marty

Subject: RE: wife of ushers well
From: Hotspur
Date: 18 Apr 00 - 12:07 AM

I think it is supposed to mean that the three sons coming back (even though they are dead and buried) is a miracle, just like a roasted rooster crowing is a miracle, both attributed to Christ.

Actually, i think this verse is probably an interloper from a different ballad. In "King Pharim" (Pharoah), the King says that if there is truly a child born of the Holy Ghost, "this roasted cock that's in the dish shall crow full fences three. The cock soon feathered and thrustened well/ By the work of God's own hand/ Three times the roasted cock did crow/ In the dish where he did stand."

Subject: RE: wife of ushers well
From: Joe Offer
Date: 18 Apr 00 - 04:36 AM

Hi, Marty - It's one I've wondered about, too. There's a bit about it at the Traditional Ballad Index (click). This is Child Ballad #79. A search for #79 in the Digital Traditon brings up three versions (click).
-Joe Offer-

Subject: RE: wife of ushers well
From: marty g
Date: 18 Apr 00 - 07:42 AM

hey, thanks to joe and hotspur! good stuff!! but more questions now, what is the name of the song relating to ? and tell me more about this song king pharim. marty

Subject: RE: wife of ushers well
From: Malcolm Douglas
Date: 18 Apr 00 - 10:39 AM

There is a version of KING PHARIM on the DT, here.

Malcolm

Subject: RE: wife of ushers well
From: Malcolm Douglas
Date: 18 Apr 00 - 11:12 AM

Do Roberts and Barrand name their source for The Wife Of Usher's Well?  As Hotspur says, verses 8 and 9 don't belong there at all, and have clearly come from King Pharim (or its predecessor, The Carnal and the Crane); the second version that Joe points to -collected in New England in 1951, but virtually identical in text to that given in The Oxford Book of Ballads, itself taken from Sir Walter Scott's published version of 1833/4- has a more coherent narrative.  The substitution (maybe the result of an accidental association of ideas on the part of the source-singer) unfortunately turns a tragic ballad into something closer to farce!  I do hope that Roberts and Barrand didn't do it on purpose.

Malcolm

Subject: RE: wife of ushers well
From: Hotspur
Date: 18 Apr 00 - 12:42 PM

Unfortunately I don't have the complete liner notes from that album. It's noted as Child 79, but doesn't say which version.

Subject: RE: wife of ushers well
From: KathWestra
Date: 18 Apr 00 - 01:08 PM

Why don't you send an e-mail to Sandy Paton, who published "Dark Ships". He could tell you what Roberts & Barrand say in the liner notes. E-mail address is .

Subject: RE: wife of ushers well
From: Sandy Paton
Date: 18 Apr 00 - 09:51 PM

Here's the note, taken from their web site, where the complete headnotes and texts to Dark Ships in the Forest are now available.

The Wife of Usher's Well (Child 79)

Scotland would seem to be the birthplace of this ballad, though, in common with many other of the ballads ennobled by their inclusion in the Child canon, it has flourished better on this side of the Atlantic, particularly in the Appalachians. Brandon lists two English variants; ours was transcribed by Ralph Vaughan Williams from a phonograph recording of a Mrs. Loveridge of Dilwyn. Not only do the children return from the dead, but we have the extra supernatural element, more proper to the religious piece "The Carnal and the Crane," of the roasted cock crowing in the serving platter.

When we released this as a CD, we decided to save a bit of money by posting the notes on the web, rather than printing an entirely new multi-page booklet insert. Cheap of us, I suppose, but we might not have been able to put it out so promptly without that saving. Grim fact of real life.

Sandy

Subject: RE: wife of ushers well
From: Sandy Paton
Date: 18 Apr 00 - 09:57 PM

Ooops! Meant to include this in the post above. Wife of Usher's Well. Hope this works.

Sandy

Subject: RE: wife of ushers well
From: marty g
Date: 18 Apr 00 - 11:03 PM

very very helpful, thanks, but still the name of the song puzzels me what does it mean? marty

Subject: RE: wife of ushers well
From: Malcolm Douglas
Date: 19 Apr 00 - 10:30 AM

Thankyou, Sandy!  I've never actually heard any of their records (and wasn't even aware of your involvement), though of course I've noticed that their names turn up a lot in the DT; I should have thought to look for a website.  Anyway, that clears up that question.

Marty; the answer to "what does the title mean" may possibly be dealt with in Professor Child's notes on the ballad, but the nearest copy to me is a couple of miles away in the library.  I can tell you that "Wife" was a term used of older -not necessarily married- women, and I would assume that Usher's Well was just a place-name; others may have more to add.

Malcolm

Subject: RE: wife of ushers well
From: IanC
Date: 20 Apr 00 - 08:43 AM

I'd always thought the name of the song was a biblical reference (like Jacob's Well) but the only Usher I can find associated with The Bible is the Bishop Usher who, in 1396, calculated the age of the world by studying the genealogies of all the Jewish patriarchs down to Adam.

I still think there's some sort of allusion here, but for the life of me I can't think - or remember - what.

Subject: RE: wife of ushers well
From: marty g
Date: 20 Apr 00 - 04:32 PM

well you know edger allen poe had a work titled " fall or the house of usher " does any one have knowledge along those lines ? marty

Subject: RE: wife of ushers well
From: Malcolm Douglas
Date: 20 Apr 00 - 08:56 PM

I'd be very surprised if Poe's story had anything to do with the ballad, but here is a link to  The Fall of the House of Usher.

Malcolm

Subject: RE: wife of ushers well
From: Sandy Paton
Date: 21 Apr 00 - 12:26 AM

In the note I copied from John Roberts and Tony Barrand's web site and pasted in above, they state "Brandon lists two English variants..." I assume this is a typist's error, and actually they are referring to the Traditional Tunes of the Child Ballads by Bertrand Bronson.

Forgive me if I'm wrong.

Sandy

Subject: RE: wife of ushers well
From: Susan of DT
Date: 21 Apr 00 - 04:14 PM

Prof. Child doesn't say much about this. It was the title of the song in the book he got it from. (He "collected" from books, not people).

I would not be surprised, but I certainly do not know for a fact, if the well was one of those enchanted or "holy" wells. Since she was clearly a wisewoman or witch (sent the children to learn gramery (sorcery)and conjured them back from death) being the guardian of an enchanted well would be in character.

Subject: RE: wife of ushers well
From: GUEST,Bruce O.
Date: 21 Apr 00 - 04:29 PM

Bronson lists two English variants, the second of which (Bronson's #3) was that transcribed by Vaughn Williams and published in Ella Mary Leather's 'The Folk-lore of Herefordshire', p. 198, 1912.

Subject: RE: wife of ushers well
From: Sandy Paton
Date: 21 Apr 00 - 08:19 PM

Thanks, Bruce. I was too lazy to hike over to the other end of the house and count the English versions in Bronson, but you have confirmed my suspicion that "Brandon" should have read "Bronson" in the note above.

Sandy (who really could use the exercise!)

Subject: RE: wife of ushers well
From: Cap't Bob
Date: 23 Apr 00 - 06:16 PM

Welcome aboard Marty ~~ about time eh'.

Very interesting thread.

Cap't Bob

Subject: RE: wife of ushers well
From: Sandy Paton
Date: 23 Apr 00 - 10:59 PM

Agreed, but we still don't know where Usher's Well is, do we?

Sandy

Subject: RE: wife of ushers well
From: IanC
Date: 25 Apr 00 - 07:49 AM

Hi

About "Gramery". You learn this at a Grammar School. It certainly ain't sorcery.

Cheers!

IanC

Subject: RE: wife of ushers well
From: Uncle_DaveO
Date: 25 Apr 00 - 10:42 AM

According to my Random House Dictionary of the English Language, (slightly translated from the dictionary-type abbreviations):

Gramarye (n.) occult learning; magic. Also, gram'ary (From Middle English gramary, which was from Old French gramaire, literally grammar.)

So the kids were sent off to Hogwarts with Harry.

Dave Oesterreich

Subject: RE: wife of ushers well
From: marty g
Date: 28 Apr 00 - 10:08 PM

i'm thinking that the bit about the holy wells ( susan of dt ) sounds good.it works for me anyway. and the point about wife not having to be a wife as we use the word ( malcom douglas ), thats good to. how usher fits into it, i dont see. the name my be important or not. might be an actual place or not. i still have a feeling that that name may have evoked a image in a different time in a place other than here i am ( michigan ). marty

Subject: RE: wife of ushers well
From: The Walrus
Date: 23 Jul 04 - 04:54 AM

Apart from the Church/Theatrical references (both Bishop Usher and the show-to-seats versions), 'Ushing' was IIRC the technique of washing heavier metal ores (such as lead) from the general spoil, a little like panning but using continual agitation on a fine sieve.
Perhaps 'Usher's Well' started as 'The ushers' Well' in a lead mining region.

Just a quick two penn'orth.

Walrus.

Subject: RE: wife of ushers well
From: GUEST,Elaine
Date: 06 Sep 04 - 09:51 AM

Have a listen to Steeleye Span's version of this song on "All around my hat" album.

Subject: RE: wife of ushers well
From: BanjoRay
Date: 06 Sep 04 - 10:01 AM

Hedy West did a superb Appalachian version on her Old Times And Hard Times LP, which by a strange coincidence I've just been listening to for the first time in many years.
Ray

Subject: RE: wife of ushers well
From: Lighter
Date: 04 Jan 05 - 07:29 PM

The Oxford English Dictionary says "gramarye" first meant grammar or learning in general. The secondary meaning of necromancy though known in the Middle Ages, apparently fell out of use and, according to Oxford, was consciously "revived" by Sir Walter Scott in 1805.

So "gramarye" in the song could mean either, but if the text originated in the 17th or 18th century (the usual case), the odds are that "grammar" is all that's intended - with an extra syllable for the meter and rhyme.

Of course, one remains free to imagine whatever makes for a better story....

Subject: RE: wife of ushers well
From: RTim
Date: 03 May 20 - 07:13 PM

It has taken you 15 years to discover this.....

Subject: RE: wife of ushers well
From: GUEST,Starship
Date: 03 May 20 - 08:13 PM

https://mainlynorfolk.info/steeleye.span/songs/thewifeofusherswell.html

Mainly Norfolk is certainly worth checking out. It's a darned good site.

Subject: RE: wife of ushers well
From: GUEST,Starship
Date: 03 May 20 - 08:55 PM

'Sir Walter Scott was the first to publish this ballad, which came from an old woman who lived in Kirkhill, in West Lothian. The area is now part of Broxburn. There is no physical geography connected to Usher’s Well. Instead, it is a ballad location, such as Garland Town and Strawberry Castle, which cannot be mapped, and the ballad is perhaps all the better for it.
“The Wife of Usher’s Well” is, in effect, a ghost story, with three sons returning to their mother, but not being quite as they appear.'

That is from

http://walterscott.eu/education/files/2013/02/Interpretative-Notes-to-The-Wife-of-Ushers-Well.pdf

Subject: RE: wife of ushers well
From: The Sandman
Date: 04 May 20 - 02:18 AM

I think gramarye means something other than grammar, one theory often putforward is that it means witchcraft.

Subject: RE: wife of ushers well
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 04 May 20 - 03:37 AM

“The Wife of Usher’s Well” is, in effect, a ghost story,"
I think this beautiful ballad is a little more than that - for me it's a superb example of a whole genre of songs and tales of 'the unquiet dead', describing the effects of 'over-mourning' the dead
It even made it to the silver screen, one of the bet examples (imo) being the gentle English 'Truely, Madly, Deeply' - vastly superior to the cack-handed and mawkish Hollywood blockbuster, 'Ghost', made around the same time

Technically, the sons aren't 'ghosts', as their mother's over-mournng has not allowed them to die properly and pass to their rest
They are not threatening, as ghosts are generally considered to be, not frightening in any way - they have returned to close their lives properly rather than having died away from their loved ones unseen

Travellers told us how they kissed the foreheads of the corpses so they could be 'seen off' in peace
If they met a funeral on the road they would turn and follow it for six steps to save 'the feller in the box' the bother of chasing after you to say goodbye'
Twenty years ago I attended Clare fiddle player, Junior Crehan's very traditional wake - the mirrors and shiny surfaces in the room were all covered and the window was left wide open so, when the time came, the spirit could depart freely without 'bumping into things'
THere was a 'correct war of doing things that had to be adhered to for the sake of both the departed and those left behind

There is an equally beautiful 'prequel' to this ballad , 'The Clerk's Twa Sons of Owsenford' explaining how the boys died - well worth looking out for - it's occasionally claimed they are the same ballad broken in half
Can't find it on UTube, but MacColl makes a fine job of it on 'Blood and Roses (vol 4)
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: wife of ushers well
From: The Sandman
Date: 04 May 20 - 03:45 AM

thanks ,jim,very interesting

Subject: RE: wife of ushers well
From: GUEST,Starship
Date: 04 May 20 - 08:46 AM

Thanks, Jim. MacColl who??

Subject: RE: wife of ushers well
From: Reinhard
Date: 04 May 20 - 09:14 AM

Are there that many MacColls, Starship?

Ewan MacColl, Peggy Seeger: Blood & Roses Volume 4

Subject: RE: wife of ushers well
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 04 May 20 - 09:19 AM

Wasn't Calum, Neill or Catriona and Kirsty's sadly dead (ang choruses on an album with her once - lovely lady

I meant to add another connection to this ballad - the 'Grateful Dead' story tradition (wasn't there a pop-group...!! :-)
Jim

Subject: RE: wife of ushers well
From: GUEST,Starship
Date: 04 May 20 - 09:20 AM

I was bugging Jim. It wasn't a serious question, Reinhard. (Deep and dark retaiiation for his remarks about Dylan, the Nobel winner, not the Welsh poet.) ;-)

Subject: RE: wife of ushers well
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 04 May 20 - 10:14 AM

"I was bugging Jim. It wasn't a serious question"
Think I know you well enough to know that
I was winding you up
Jim

Subject: RE: wife of ushers well
From: GUEST,Starship
Date: 04 May 20 - 10:37 AM

Jim, you remarked earlier that "the mirrors and shiny surfaces in the room were all covered". I found that interesting because it appears in other cultures also. When I was about 13 or 14 I went to a friend's house and the mirrors were covered. I asked why, and he informed me it was a customary in households that were 'sitting shiva'. I found out later that it was a common but not ubiquitous practice among peoples all over the world. Input like yours makes looking into this stuff one heck of a lot more interesting than I thought it would be. Best to you.

Subject: RE: wife of ushers well
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 04 May 20 - 12:54 PM

And to you Starry (sure that's a cue for a song)
Fascinating information yourself
Clare (unior in Particular (the man on the bed) was a goldmine for such information
It was he who told us that it was considered unlucky to play a bodhran indoors as it was a ritual instrument, though his twinkling sense of humour made mus suspect that that wasn't a fiddler fed up with Ireland's traditional death-watch beetle talking :-)

One on the most fasinating trditions he described was 'the bohocks' - the STRAW BOYS who used to come to the wedding celebrations dressed in straw and dance with the bride
Several people described this to us, but Junior took me aside in the jacks (pub toilet) one night and told me that was only half he story
He said that, in the old days they would take the bride out of the room and ritually pretend to 'break her in' for the groom
"Nobody else'll ever tell a stranger that in case it gets back to the priest" he added
He was one lovely man
At the wake, they laid him out on the bed with his fiddle resing on one arm and a packet of fags in the other hand
On his 90th birthday Tom Munnelly told him "If you don't pack up the fags and booze you'll be dead before you reach 100"
Tom died decades younger than Junior did
Jim