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BS: An optimistic voice for peace in Israel
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Subject: BS: An optimistic voice for peace in Israel From: freda underhill Date: 25 Aug 06 - 07:47 PM I am publishing this article/interview because it's so significant to hear comments from an Israeli politician with solutions for peace. The recent war has been so devastating - this article is worth a read on full, but here are some inportant excerpts: An Optimistic Voice in Israel Israel's military defeat in Lebanon has created new opportunities for peace – that's what Israeli Knesset member and peace movement leader Yossi Beilin told Terry Gross on the NPR show "Fresh Air" on August 23. Beilin, chairman of the left-wing Meretz party, has served in different Labor governments, and was one of the architects of the 1991 Oslo Accords and the 2003 Geneva Accord. The Israeli government and military today are facing popular anger and strong criticism over their failures in Lebanon. Beilen recalled that the government faced similar criticism after the 1973 Yom Kippur war. But that war, he pointed out, opened the way to a historic peace treaty with Egypt -- the Camp David agreement of 1978 – and a peace between the two countries that continues to this day. Who should Israel negotiate with? Hamas and Hezbollah don't recognize Israel or its right to exist. "I would negotiate with everybody who is ready to negotiate with me," Beilin replied. "Neither Hezbollah nor Hamas is ready to negotiate with Israel, which leaves us with the government of Lebanon, with Mahmoud Abbas and the Palestinian Authority, and with the Syrian government. All of them are speaking about an agreement with Israel." He suggested convening an international conference with those participants. But withdrawing from Lebanon, and then withdrawing from Gaza, did not bring peace. Haven't these experiences turned Israeli public opinion against peace negotiations? "I don't think so," Beilin replied. What Israelis have lost faith in is unilateral withdrawals. In contrast to the "non-agreements" around the withdrawals from Lebanon and Gaza, "We have had a peace agreement with Egypt since '75, with Jordan since '94, and these are big achievements," he said. "People are disenchanted about unilateralism. . . . They understand now that peace agreements do not have substitutes." The crucial example: Syria. It's possible that the entire Lebanon war, and the arming of Hezbollah, could have been avoided if Israel had signed a peace treaty with Syria in 1999 – "and paid the price of the Golan Heights to have this peace." That would have had "a huge impact on Lebanon," which Syria has more or less controlled. But when Hamas controls a majority of seats in the Palestinian legislature, and when Hamas doesn't recognize Israel or its right to exist, how can you have a negotiated peace with the Palestinians? "Here the procedure is quite clear," Beilin replied. "Hamas is telling the world that it is ready for Mahmoud Abbas to negotiate with Israel. Once he ends his negotiations, he will have to bring that agreement either to a referendum or to a meeting of the Palestinian national council. If there is a majority for such an agreement, it will become a reality. . . . This is the way Hamas can stick to its ideology, but enable others to negotiate." In the end, the leaders of Hamas "will not be the ones to shake our hands, but they will benefit from an agreement with Israel." But hasn't the rise of Islamic extremism throughout the region reduced the chances for a negotiated peace? "I would like to reject the idea that what we have is a war of civilizations or war of religions," Beilin said. "Everywhere you have extremists, but also moderate people and pragmatic people. Wisdom also requires creating the coalition of sanity, those people who want to live and want their kids to live. These are the majorities everywhere." The strategic key for Israel, he said, is "to put an end to the war situation in the inner circle" – Israel, Egypt, Syria, Jordan, Lebanon, and the Palestinians – "so that war here will not create a pretext for those who want to fight forever." Beilin gave credit for that idea to Yitzhak Rabin, the prime minister who was assassinated in 1995 by an Israeli fanatic who opposed his signing the Oslo Acccords. Rabin "wanted peace in the inner circle before Iran became a nuclear power, and before the hatred of Israel in the Arab world would make anyone who made peace with us be seen as a traitor. He was right." But "it's still not too late." link to full article here: An Optimistic Voice in Israel |
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Subject: RE: BS: An optimistic voice for peace in Israel From: Janie Date: 25 Aug 06 - 08:20 PM thanks for posting this, Freda. I listened to the Fresh Air interview with great interest. I hope he is not 'a voice crying in the wilderness.' Janie |
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Subject: RE: BS: An optimistic voice for peace in Israel From: dianavan Date: 25 Aug 06 - 08:20 PM freda - Thats the most hopeful article I have read in awhile. I have long been thinking that the path to peace would have to come from Jews in Israel. Lets hope that others are not so entrenched in victimization, fear and retaliation that they are able to lead the way. I have always respected Jews around the world for their peace efforts and their committment to humanitarian causes. Lets hope they can regain their international prestige by extending the hand of peace, once again. |
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Subject: RE: BS: An optimistic voice for peace in Israel From: freda underhill Date: 25 Aug 06 - 08:25 PM it's good to have some hope, isn't it. the people who can think like that are to be admired - and should be assisted in any way possible to have influence and effect. |
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Subject: RE: BS: An optimistic voice for peace in Israel From: Barry Finn Date: 25 Aug 06 - 08:59 PM Another thanks freda. Finally a sane voice rising above the din. I do wonder though when I read all the past agreements with so many neighbors will this call go unheeded or will it's sound chill the hotheaded to the bone so that there'll be no need for future agreements & all can live as neighbors should with a helping hand to give each other or a stab in the back & a set back. Barry |
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Subject: RE: BS: An optimistic voice for peace in Israel From: The Fooles Troupe Date: 25 Aug 06 - 09:48 PM Freda ... "Islamic extremism" I read that as "extermism"... sorry... Rabin said that the thing ge regretted most was giving in to "the settlers" - he intended the lands seized during the war that he was instrumental in winning, to be used as a bargaining chip, to be given back, not settled... |
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Subject: RE: BS: An optimistic voice for peace in Israel From: robomatic Date: 25 Aug 06 - 09:58 PM I, too listened to most of the interview. I think Terry Gross is a national treasure. I found Mr. Beilin to be encouraging and articulate. He did outline a coherent viewpoint and procedure. I don't think he will be successful as I think there is more hope than substance in his approach. |
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Subject: RE: BS: An optimistic voice for peace in Israel From: katlaughing Date: 25 Aug 06 - 11:35 PM I heard it, too, and was very uplifted. Thanks, Freda! |
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Subject: RE: BS: An optimistic voice for peace in Israel From: Wolfgang Date: 26 Aug 06 - 05:37 AM This war was avoidable (interview with an Israeli general and former adviser to Sharon) Syria's price for peace Syria may be willing to use its clout with Hezbollah to help end the current conflict in the Middle East -- but at a price. Syria wants the Golan Heights back from Israel. If it doesn't get it, more violence may result. Wolfgang |
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Subject: RE: BS: An optimistic voice for peace in Israel From: robomatic Date: 26 Aug 06 - 09:25 AM I think a good course for Syria would be: "Learning to live with disappointment" |
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Subject: RE: BS: An optimistic voice for peace in Israel From: The Fooles Troupe Date: 26 Aug 06 - 07:32 PM But of course that can never apply to Israel... |
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Subject: RE: BS: An optimistic voice for peace in Israel From: GUEST,Art Thieme Date: 26 Aug 06 - 10:34 PM Still, the cool fresh air is a welcome ray of hope after this summer. Art |
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Subject: RE: BS: An optimistic voice for peace in Israel From: Greg F. Date: 27 Aug 06 - 09:15 AM Obviously a self-hating Jew in league with The Islamic Terrorists- oh, 'scuse me- TAY-rists. |
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Subject: RE: BS: An optimistic voice for peace in Israel From: Bill Hahn//\\ Date: 27 Aug 06 - 07:19 PM This may well be a ray of hope. As to the Golan Hts.--that would be, to me, a huge mistake. Look what happened when Syria was n control of them---the slogan Never Again should surely apply there. There is a film---now getting a rebirth--called The Impossible Spy. The story of Elie Cohen who worked his way up to the top of the Syrian hiarchy and was able to supply Israel w/ the locations of all the weapons there prior to Syrian attacks on Israel. He was hanged many years ago and the body is still in Syria. The film came out in the 1980s and stars Eli Wallach and John Shea. Now on DVD. Truth in advertising disclaimer---I am a friend of the writer and the producer of the film. I have also interviewed him on my Tabletalk program on WFDU. The film merely states the story of Cohen, but you do find out the danger of having the Hts in aggressive hands. Just like in any battle situation---control the high ground. Bill Hahn |
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Subject: RE: BS: An optimistic voice for peace in Israel From: number 6 Date: 27 Aug 06 - 09:18 PM I don't know if this has been posted on any of the many threads regarding Israel and Hezbollah in the Cat as of late .. but if it hasn't, it is very interesting. An interesting statement from Hassan Nasrallah. Hopefully there will not be any more violent clashes between Israel and the Hezbollah. No more violent clashes, we can only hope sIx |
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Subject: RE: BS: An optimistic voice for peace in Israel From: bobad Date: 27 Aug 06 - 09:25 PM Maybe now "for humanitarian, moral, social, security, military and political reasons" Hezbollah will release the soldiers it kidnapped also a goodwill gesture and an apology for the mistake they made. |
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Subject: RE: BS: An optimistic voice for peace in Israel From: The Fooles Troupe Date: 27 Aug 06 - 10:49 PM Maybe now "for humanitarian, moral, social, security, military and political reasons" Israelwill release the people it kidnapped also a goodwill gesture and an apology for the mistake they made. |
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Subject: RE: BS: An optimistic voice for peace in Israel From: Peace Date: 28 Aug 06 - 12:09 AM The "People of the Book" need new interpreters. |
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Subject: RE: BS: An optimistic voice for peace in Israel From: Old Guy Date: 28 Aug 06 - 12:33 AM Beilin = Commie Pinko |
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Subject: RE: BS: An optimistic voice for peace in Israel From: The Fooles Troupe Date: 28 Aug 06 - 08:01 AM Isn't "Commie Pinko" a tautology? |
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Subject: RE: BS: An optimistic voice for peace in Israel From: Old Guy Date: 28 Aug 06 - 08:10 AM Is it? Like that one that said "free Vanunu", Issam Makhoul, head of Israeli Communist Party |
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Subject: RE: BS: An optimistic voice for peace in Israel From: The Badger Date: 28 Aug 06 - 08:03 PM There will be peace when terrorists stop firing missiles and sending suicide bombers. |
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Subject: RE: BS: An optimistic voice for peace in Israel From: dianavan Date: 28 Aug 06 - 08:16 PM Yes, the terrorists will have no need to fire missiles or send suicide bombers if the U.S./Britain/Israel resume diplomatic relations and begin to address their concerns. |
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Subject: RE: BS: An optimistic voice for peace in Israel From: Peace Date: 28 Aug 06 - 08:19 PM "There will be peace when terrorists stop firing missiles and sending suicide bombers." Good point. |
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Subject: RE: BS: An optimistic voice for peace in Israel From: The Fooles Troupe Date: 28 Aug 06 - 08:38 PM "the terrorists will have no need to fire missiles or send suicide bombers if the U.S./Britain/Israel resume diplomatic relations and begin to address their concerns" Also good point... |
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Subject: RE: BS: An optimistic voice for peace in Israel From: Peace Date: 28 Aug 06 - 08:41 PM Not really. Hezbollah does not speak for the Lebanese. The concerns were stated by the UN two years ago--how Hezbollah had to be removed from the border area. Those concerns were never addressed. Maybe they will be now. |
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Subject: RE: BS: An optimistic voice for peace in Israel From: The Fooles Troupe Date: 28 Aug 06 - 09:12 PM "Hezbollah does not speak for the Lebanese." But since no one else is CLAIMING to be speaking for them, they will happily let Hezbollah follow it's own agenda, in the fond delusion that they will be better off than before... like the German people were prepared to, after WWI reparations had totally f***** up the country... "Those concerns were never addressed. Maybe they will be now. " After the recent fiasco, where Israel took some severe propaganda hits in the eyes of those living in Lebanon, I doubt it! |
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Subject: RE: BS: An optimistic voice for peace in Israel From: dan darragh Date: 28 Aug 06 - 09:24 PM WHO ARE THE REAL TERRIOSTS IN THIS WORLD?WHAT DRIVES A MAN TO SUCH MEASURES AS BLOWING HIMSELF UP?WHAT DRIVES A MAN TO DIE ON HUNGERSTRIKE?WE IN IRELAND KNOW WHO THE REAL TERRIOSTS ARE IN OUR COUNTRY AND IT IS NOT THE LOCALS.ISREAL IS A VERY BAD COUNTRY AND ARE WARMONGERS AND EVERYONE SHOULD TURN THERE BACKS ON THEM. |
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Subject: RE: BS: An optimistic voice for peace in Israel From: bobad Date: 28 Aug 06 - 09:29 PM "WHAT DRIVES A MAN TO SUCH MEASURES AS BLOWING HIMSELF UP" 72 VIRGINS? |
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Subject: RE: BS: An optimistic voice for peace in Israel From: robomatic Date: 29 Aug 06 - 04:04 PM In the days when Israel needed help only to survive the Irish helped. The more recent attempts to link the IRA with the Pallys are truly sad, and prob'ly linked to the link between the IRA and the commies. |
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Subject: RE: BS: An optimistic voice for peace in Israel From: Peace Date: 29 Aug 06 - 07:46 PM "WHO ARE THE REAL TERRIOSTS IN THIS WORLD?WHAT DRIVES A MAN TO SUCH MEASURES AS BLOWING HIMSELF UP?WHAT DRIVES A MAN TO DIE ON HUNGERSTRIKE?WE IN IRELAND KNOW WHO THE REAL TERRIOSTS ARE IN OUR COUNTRY AND IT IS NOT THE LOCALS.ISREAL IS A VERY BAD COUNTRY AND ARE WARMONGERS AND EVERYONE SHOULD TURN THERE BACKS ON THEM." Why do you shout? And why did you not mention Hezbollah murderers? |
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Subject: RE: BS: An optimistic voice for peace in Israel From: The Fooles Troupe Date: 29 Aug 06 - 07:55 PM Did you know that the Tamal Tigers in Sri Lanka have used more suicide bombers than ANY Middle East 'terror group'? |
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Subject: RE: BS: An optimistic voice for peace in Israel From: Peace Date: 29 Aug 06 - 08:06 PM No, I didn't know that. |
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Subject: RE: BS: An optimistic voice for peace in Israel From: Peace Date: 29 Aug 06 - 08:11 PM Did you know that there are more female suicide bombers than male suicide bombers in the Tamil Tigers' organization? |
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Subject: RE: BS: An optimistic voice for peace in Israel From: bobad Date: 29 Aug 06 - 08:18 PM On the topic of suicide bombers : The Tailor of Death, according to reports by the journalist Gordon Thomas, is an unknown craftsman from the Palestinian Territories, perhaps from Jenin, who creates suicide bomber suits designed to balance distribution of explosive effect to cover the widest possible area. The only suicide bombing to which he has been linked is that by Wafa Idris in 2002. Investigations by Shin Bet and Mossad have been unsuccessful in identifying the Tailor of Death. His handiwork |
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Subject: RE: BS: An optimistic voice for peace in Israel From: Old Guy Date: 29 Aug 06 - 11:12 PM "U.S./Britain/Israel resume diplomatic relations and begin to address their concerns." Now address these concerns Dianavan: "We are a nation that drinks blood, and we know that there is no blood better than the blood of Jews." "We will not leave you alone until we have quenched our thirst with your blood, and our children's thirst with your blood." "We will destroy you, blow you up, take revenge against you, purify the land of you, pigs that have defiled our country… This operation is revenge against the sons of monkeys and pigs." "Jihad is the only way to liberate Palestine -- all of Palestine -- from the impurity of the Jews." |
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Subject: RE: BS: An optimistic voice for peace in Israel From: Wolfgang Date: 30 Aug 06 - 10:14 AM Did you know that the Tamal Tigers in Sri Lanka have used more suicide bombers than ANY Middle East 'terror group'? (Foolestroupe) One can spread lies by telling the truth in a cleverly disguised one-sided way. We group all suicide attacks in Sri Lanka under "Tamil Tigers" and not under LTTE, ELNF, TNT, IPKF, TELO, and several others but we usually tend to report the particular group name in Israel/Palestine. The numbers from Wikipedia are: all Tamil groups together 76 - 168 suicide attacks The attacks in Israel (split): Hamas 67 Islamic Jihad 30 Al-Aqsa 22 The attacks in Israel together: 119, which is roughly in the middle of the two extrem estimates for all Tamil groups together. By cleverly grouping all Sri Lanka groups under the name of Tamil tigers but not for instance all Palestinian groups under "Palestines" Foolestroupe comes to the correct but misleading statistic in his post. Add to the numbers of suicide attacks in Israel the 50 in Lebanon (Hezbollah and others) and maybe even those in Iraq (or even those in Western countries) the recent suicide bombers by Arab groups lead by far both in the number of attacks and the number of victims. Wolfgang |
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Subject: RE: BS: An optimistic voice for peace in Israel From: Wolfgang Date: 30 Aug 06 - 10:26 AM I'm sorry, but I have to correct my numbers (I had misread Wikipedia). All Tamil groups together are responsible for more than 200 suicide attacks and the 76 - 168 estimate is the estimate for one single group, the Black Tigers. So what Foolestroupe has posted is correct whether one looks for the specific group with the most attacks or respectively groups "Palestinians" and "Tamil Tigers". I apologise for my mistake. All Arab suicide attacks (irrespective of country) together however now surpass the record by the Tamils. Wolfgang |
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Subject: RE: BS: An optimistic voice for peace in Israel From: bobad Date: 30 Aug 06 - 12:14 PM Another optimistic voice for peace : Hamas figure slams Gaza 'anarchy' The Gaza Strip is in the grip of anarchy and Palestinians must stop blaming Israel for all their problems, a senior Hamas figure has said. Ghazi Hamad, chief spokesman for the Hamas government, said the hope that followed Israel's pull-out last year had been replaced with "a nightmare". Gaza is at the mercy of thugs, he said, and pleaded for an end to deadly clan rivalries. "Let Gaza breathe," he said. Such frank self-criticism is rare among Palestinian leaders, analysts say. Mr Hamad's comments came in an article, which was published in Palestinian newspapers on Monday. He said they were his own views and did not represent the position of his government. "I am not interested in discussing the ugliness and brutality of the occupation because it is not a secret. Instead, I prefer self-criticism and self evaluation," Mr Hamad wrote. Overwhelming problems He said life in Gaza City now involved "unimaginable chaos, careless policemen, young men carrying guns and strutting with pride, and families receiving condolences for their dead in the middle of the street." And he was also critical of militants who fire crudely-made rockets into Israel, saying ordinary Palestinians paid a high price when Israel responded militarily to such attacks. Mr Hamad said Gazans should stop laying the blame for their mistakes at the door of the Israeli occupation. "Our extreme joy at their departure made us forget the most important question: What is our next step?" he went on. Hamas swept to power in elections in January and promised to bring law and order to the Gaza Strip. Mr Hamad's remarks would seem to be an admission that it has completely failed to do so, the BBC's Alan Johnston in the West Bank says. But he adds that the best government in the world would have struggled to cope with Gaza's overwhelming social and economic problems. Hamas has also been paralysed by the crushing Western and Israeli economic boycott imposed because it has refused to renounce violence and accept Israel's right to exist. Story from BBC NEWS: http://news.bbc.co.uk/go/pr/fr/-/2/hi/middle_east/5293854.stm Published: 2006/08/28 23:27:36 GMT |
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Subject: RE: BS: An optimistic voice for peace in Israel From: Greg F. Date: 30 Aug 06 - 01:57 PM I had misread Wikipedia A much greater error is citing "Wikipedia" in the first place. As something that anyone can post to and anyone can edit, its nothing more than a glorified blog. There are real sources of factual material on the web- but Wikipedia ain't one of 'em. |
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Subject: RE: BS: An optimistic voice for peace in Israel From: GUEST,Bluesman Date: 02 Sep 11 - 11:00 AM Just reading an article about Venessa Redgrave and her well publicized hate of the state of Israel. She states she is proud of her "combative stance toward Jews." (She was once filmed dancing with a Kalashnikov rifle at a PLO camp and, upon winning the Academy Award in 1978 for Julia, branded her Jewish critics "Zionist hoodlums.") |
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Subject: RE: BS: An optimistic voice for peace in Israel From: GUEST,999 Date: 02 Sep 11 - 11:37 AM Vanessa, not Venessa. |
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Subject: RE: BS: An optimistic voice for peace in Israel From: EBarnacle Date: 02 Sep 11 - 12:33 PM Interesting. This thread has evolved from optimism to the usual hate flinging. Get over it, folks, and work for a solution. |
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Subject: RE: BS: An optimistic voice for peace in Israel From: Dorothy Parshall Date: 02 Sep 11 - 05:29 PM If you google Maxine Kaufman-Lacusta you will find her book Refusing to Be Enemies: Palestinian and Israeli Nonviolent Resistance to the Israeli Occupation. "Maxine Kaufman-Lacusta's new book offers us a compelling invitation to consider non-violent activism as a path to peaceful resolution in the context of the Israeli-Palestinian conflict. In a series of interviews, essays and commentaries, and with contributions from notable peace activists such as Ghassan Andoni, Ursula Franklin, Jeff Halper, Starhawk and others, she explores many forms of creative non-violence and its powerful effects." She gave a compelling talk at the book launch in Montreal a few months ago. It is mostly on line also, |
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Subject: RE: BS: An optimistic voice for peace in Israel From: Stilly River Sage Date: 02 Sep 11 - 07:41 PM GUEST: Bluesman seems to stalk discussions looking to interject hate. SRS |
