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BS: Matter and Spirit
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Subject: RE: BS: Matter and Spirit From: Little Hawk Date: 15 Aug 04 - 10:03 PM 42 - Don't hold your breath on that one! :-) Nothing is so adamant and offensive as sheer ignorance confronted by a new idea. Bill - You'll find I agree with Amos on pretty well all of what he said. Your brain would avail you nothing without the active intelligence of your spirit coursing through it, just as a radio would avail you nothing without a broadcast program to play through it and a purposeful intention to tune in the station, and electricity to power the device. Your spirit is the intelligence, energy, and purpose analagous to those. Your brain is the receiving/transmitting device, and nothing more than that. Wolfgang, however, would probably say it's the other way around, and that the physical brain has given rise TO all those other things I mentioned. Like I said before, one of us is clearly looking through the wrong end of the telescope. Either that, or we're both half right. :-) |
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Subject: RE: BS: Matter and Spirit From: Bill D Date: 15 Aug 04 - 10:03 PM "...ability, intention and the source of thought are possibly of a different order " the crucial word there being "possibly"....it remains to be seen if we can postulate such a 'different order' with no other basis than not liking its opposite....*smile*. There is, of course, the theory that a series of bio-chemical switches of enough complexity DO comprise all there is of human behavior. I do not 'like' that idea any more than you do, and I MUST act as though I have 'free will' or 'spirit'...(or whatever)...but IF there is something acting independantly of complex brain function, we don't know what that might be yet. (My 1/3 finished Masters thesis was supposed to be on the possibility of resolving this dilema thru something like A.N. Whitehead's metaphysics.) It may be just that 'spirit' is too loaded a word to use comfortably, and that we are debating will-o-the-wisps of language....it has happened before. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Matter and Spirit From: Bill D Date: 15 Aug 04 - 10:40 PM LH...we posted at the same time, or I would have tossed in comments about your metaphors..*grin* "...active intelligence of your spirit coursing.." is a concept...I know what you mean, I just don't know that it MEANS anything ....beyond the metaphor. The radio metaphor is easy...the bio-chemical switches might just be the 'broadcast' and the brain the transmitter, with the mouth..etc..the speakers. The major difference between us is that I am satisfied not having a statement that there IS some universal force/spirit/power enervating the process, while you state it as though it is a given....*shrug*.... Is that YOUR eyes I see at the other end of that telescope?...wow, it's tiny! *grin* |
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Subject: RE: BS: Matter and Spirit From: Little Hawk Date: 15 Aug 04 - 10:44 PM Okay...so what's the reason for it all? Or is it meaningless? If so, where does that leave us? I derive strength from the fact that it's not meaningless. Life, I mean. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Matter and Spirit From: Amos Date: 15 Aug 04 - 11:20 PM Bill: I believe I have other evidence which if it is okay with you I won't go into here, but which extends considerably further than "not liking" the merchaistic version. I only said "possibly"; to be polite and allow the idea to be approached by the open-minded. The problem with the word spirit is that it gets contaminated by various practices who load it up with their own semantics. I find substantive evidence that regardless of all the semantics, an individual is more than and different from his body, and to decide thebody is the source of thought is parallel to assuming that the intelligence in driving comes from the car (just because the driver occasionally is found inside). A |
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Subject: RE: BS: Matter and Spirit From: JennyO Date: 15 Aug 04 - 11:26 PM "Remembering the past does not preclude you from repeating it anyway." Bill D, your quote reminds me of one I heard - "Insanity is doing the same thing over and over again and expecting the same result." |
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Subject: RE: BS: Matter and Spirit From: Little Hawk Date: 15 Aug 04 - 11:28 PM Isn't it, "Doing the same thing over and over again and expecting a different result." ? |
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Subject: RE: BS: Matter and Spirit From: JennyO Date: 15 Aug 04 - 11:46 PM OOPS! I think my brain needs airing. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Matter and Spirit From: Bill D Date: 16 Aug 04 - 12:24 AM "Okay...so what's the reason for it all? Or is it meaningless? If so, where does that leave us?" well... why is it necessary to have meaning beyond our own subjective interpretation? It we GIVE it meaning, it HAS meaning. I believe in the values of truth, beauty, sharing, loving, caring, learning, ..and a few more...but I have no notion that these are anything but relative values which I/we superimpose on experience. I believe that the opposites of those values are in the LONG view self-defeating. Of course, some derive different opinions from short-term views...stealing, lying..etc.. I believe that it is possible, alá Kant, to demonstrate the logic of 'good' as an end-in-itself...but I see no 'meaning' in the universe as a whole. The universe doesn't care what we do, think or create....(I have about 3 hours of long-winded RT explanation of all this over a beer or three sometime..*grin*)(I had a philosophy prof in college who couldn't adapt to rigid limits on class time...he had this web of connections in his head, and purely resented having them interrupted by bells and schedules--I finally appreciate what he went thru!) Amos-...ok, I get the general drift...I'm open to PMs if you wanna elaborate. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Matter and Spirit From: GUEST,Ooh-Aah Date: 16 Aug 04 - 03:56 AM If any of you new-age/mystical crystal-gazing types are interested, the Australian Sceptics Society is offering A$100,000 for anyone who can prove their claims under test conditions. After all the miracle cures (ha! ha! ha!) we were told about earlier in this thread, this should be a piece of cake. For the Americans out there I'm sure YOUR sceptics have a similar reward in real money. Let's see you back up your words with actions. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Matter and Spirit From: Pied Piper Date: 16 Aug 04 - 06:13 AM Yes Mr Randi that consummate wielder of Occam's chainsaw has 1 million Dollars up for the takingEasy money?. Scrape some plack of your teeth and say hallo you and the Bacteria that form it have a common ancestor, some 2 billion yearsish ago. PP |
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Subject: RE: BS: Matter and Spirit From: Two_bears Date: 16 Aug 04 - 07:12 AM Isn't it, "Doing the same thing over and over again and expecting a different result." ? You're correct LH. If any of you new-age/mystical crystal-gazing types are interested, the Australian Sceptics Society is offering A$100,000 for anyone who can prove their claims under test conditions. After all the miracle cures (ha! ha! ha!) we were told about earlier in this thread, this should be a piece of cake. For the Americans out there I'm sure YOUR sceptics have a similar reward in real money. Let's see you back up your words with actions. Ooh Aah: You obviously do not understand metaphysics and healers. I have explained this many times. We "healers" are NOT the healers. The "Healer" only supplies the energy surcharge to get the healing process started. The healing is done by the higher powers, and the healee's sub conscious mind (willing to be be healed). ANL - 2B |
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Subject: RE: BS: Matter and Spirit From: Pied Piper Date: 16 Aug 04 - 11:27 AM To see the brain, as a series of convoluted binary switches is incorrect the Brain (or more correctly a large parts of it) consists of a vast number of coupled Relaxation Oscillators with continuous properties that lead to emergent temporal behaviour. Even simple systems of 2 coupled relaxation oscillators can produce complex chaotic behaviour. I think the Brain starts to build these systems under the guidance of the consciousness into models of the behaviour of external systems as soon as we are born, and probably before. You only have to watch toddlers to see how unstoppably they pursue knowledge of the world through empirical observation hypothesis formation and experimental testing. Of cause this brings us to the subject of consciousness, but I think that should have it's own thread. PP |
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Subject: RE: BS: Matter and Spirit From: Little Hawk Date: 16 Aug 04 - 12:48 PM You raise a very useful point there, Bill, when you say: "well... why is it necessary to have meaning beyond our own subjective interpretation? If we GIVE it meaning, it HAS meaning. I believe in the values of truth, beauty, sharing, loving, caring, learning, ..and a few more...but I have no notion that these are anything but relative values which I/we superimpose on experience. I believe that the opposites of those values are in the LONG view self-defeating. Of course, some derive different opinions from short-term views...stealing, lying..etc.." Exactly! That is the wonder of free will, and the ability to impart meaning to what would otherwise be meaningless...and that is an ability derived from consciousness, and consciousness is an aspect of spirit. The relative values which we superimpose on experience are created and used BY us in a beautifully intelligent and meaningful manner....or in same cases, NOT so intelligent...as in the case of the thief, liar, etc...but still intelligent on a certain level...a level of thinking which says, "Only my needs matter". Do you see that we are using God-like abilities to give meaning to the World around us? We are God, Bill, all of us. We are God embodied in an apparently separate and limited being. If that limited being fails to see the commonality of spirit in the other limited beings around it, and thinks that ITS survival is all that matters, then it becomes what we term "immoral" or "amoral" in its actions. In so doing, it is demonstrating the limits of its own understanding. People who see themselves in others, and thereby respect and care for others are far more helpful and responsible. These are the spiritual challenges of masquerading as a limited being in an enormous field of opportunity/threat...which we call the World or the Universe. You are God embodied, Bill. So am I. So is the skeptical Guest, and so is everyone else. Only question is, how do we go about expressing it? Are we conscious of higher purpose, partially conscious of it, or wholly ignorant of it? I would rather deal with a morally responsible atheist than a morally irresponsible religious nut any time...because the morally responsible atheist is far better tuned into higher purpose, whether he identifies it as that or not. Most of all, I enjoy dealing with a morally responsible person who IS keenly aware of spiritual purpose. As for these skeptics who offer prizes, like the Unamazing Randi, they are just laughable in their desperate need for attention and ego justification. They remind me of J. Jonah Jamieson. :-) Their perfect mental counterparts are people who think Eve was made out of Adam's rib...and those are the people they ought to spend their time debating with uselessly. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Matter and Spirit From: Bill D Date: 16 Aug 04 - 01:24 PM "....because the morally responsible atheist is far better tuned into higher purpose, whether he identifies it as that or not." well, I guess I get a 7.046 out of 10 in your ranking, LH...that ain't bad! *grin* we seem to agree on certain premises, but diverge on the interpretaion & implications. "... how do we go about expressing it?"....I see no need to even USE words like God and "higher purpose" when I have no idea what they might refer to except circular linguistic references. I see amazing things in the universe, and I am in total awe at the complexity of it all and wish I could live a million years to see what we might learn..(and meet 'others' from "out there"=no fair you having all the fun!)...but I have this deep reluctance to assume much about any ultimate meaning or causality. de gustibus non disputandem est |
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Subject: RE: BS: Matter and Spirit From: Amos Date: 16 Aug 04 - 03:33 PM Pied Piper, You raise a very interesting point about "relaxation oscillators" about which I unfortunately know very little. However, the fundamental which I still see as an error is the attribution to that network -- analog or binary -- of certain capabilities which (imho) can't really come from wetware, no matter how coupled, including awareness itself, intent, understanding, and the ability to consciously be. A |
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Subject: RE: BS: Matter and Spirit From: Little Hawk Date: 16 Aug 04 - 03:41 PM I think of you as being pretty highly developed spiritually, Bill. You just don't express it necessarily in the same words that I would. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Matter and Spirit From: Amos Date: 16 Aug 04 - 04:29 PM Well having at least refreshed my clarity on the definition of a relaxation oscillator I am moved to repeat my earlier objection, PP, but to save storage just consider it done! A |
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Subject: RE: BS: Matter and Spirit From: Bill D Date: 16 Aug 04 - 10:49 PM well, I'm gonna take that as a compliment *grin*, even if it does |
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Subject: RE: BS: Matter and Spirit From: GUEST,Ooh-Aah Date: 17 Aug 04 - 05:20 AM Sooo... no takers for this ready cash then. If Mr Randi is such an egotistical person, wipe the smile off his face by taking the money off him! His ego is beside the point of course - a classic case of attacking the man not the ball. Go in there and do the tests. OK, if you're not the healer and something else is, this other thing is not going to desert you simply because you're in a test situation - don't forget that you agree on the form the test will take. No-one will do the test because you know perfectly well, in some well-repressed cupboard of your mind, that this paranormal stuff is baloney. If not, why not? |
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Subject: RE: BS: Matter and Spirit From: Pied Piper Date: 17 Aug 04 - 06:08 AM The Unijunction transister circuit is a good example. Here are some more electronic versions. There are chemical, mechanical, and even genetic relaxation oscillators as well. I'm playing around with RO circuits made with DIAC as there cheap and require less components. PP |
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Subject: RE: BS: Matter and Spirit From: Pied Piper Date: 17 Aug 04 - 11:28 AM I'm not asserting that consciousness is an emergent property of large arrays relaxation oscillators, just that this is the way the brain does a lot of it's stuff. I think consciousness arises through some quantum mechanical process, possibly sequential Bose-Einstein condensates, produced in the microtubules of the Brains cells. PP |
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Subject: RE: BS: Matter and Spirit From: Little Hawk Date: 17 Aug 04 - 11:59 AM What specific test(s) are you suggesting, Ooh-Ahh? Can you describe it? And have you considered a lucrative career doing the narration for porno movies? |
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Subject: RE: BS: Matter and Spirit From: CarolC Date: 17 Aug 04 - 12:11 PM I looked into the conditions Mr. Randi places on anyone who wants to try to claim the money he is offering. This is the one that stops me from ever wanting to get myself involved with his little scam: Applicant agrees that all data (photographic, recorded, written, etc.) gathered as a result of the testing may be used freely by JREF in any way that Mr. Randi may choose. He's nothing more than a rip-off artist, and anyone with any sense of self-preservation will go running in the opposite direction from him and his little enterprise... and fast. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Matter and Spirit From: Little Hawk Date: 17 Aug 04 - 12:13 PM Precisely. Like I said, he reminds me of J.Jonah Jamieson. He is either obsessed, or he's a scoundrel, or both of those at the same time. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Matter and Spirit From: Bill D Date: 17 Aug 04 - 12:16 PM well, Pied Piper...whether it is that, or something slightly different...or even something completely different--I am glad to see research and ideas going into some positive STUDY of the possibilities, rather than vague attribution to some "higher power", just because it's easier to toss out abstract opinions instead of doing hard work. (I don't BEGIN to comprehend the details of those links, but I see the principle being explored) Sadly, if the ultimate mechanism were discovered and demonstrated tomorrow, with detailed maps of brain circuits, most of the 'spiritual' crowd would either flatly deny it, or assert that THEIR model was what drove and and 'enervated' the process, simply, I suspect, because some people's ego/personality/emotions/background require the poetic and mysterious component. (I don't consider that to be an insult to them, and really, not even much of a criticism, since, if I AM right, they can't help feeling what they feel. I do happen to think there's enough poetry and awe and mystery in the physical reality of it all to satisfy anyone, if they'd could just see it.) Obviously, I would like to see a bit more rigor in the language involved in the debates..*grin*...so that we are not all tossing out words & phrases which mean very different things to different people. Just look at the various uses of God, Mind, Spirit, Belief, Truth, Proof, etc...that we find just here at Mudcat! |
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Subject: RE: BS: Matter and Spirit From: CarolC Date: 17 Aug 04 - 12:21 PM ...however, I don't think any of the posters on this thread who have said they want scientific proof really want proof that what people like LH, Amos, and I are saying is true. I think that they only want proof that it isn't true. I notice that when I offered to do a test using plants, not one of the people who has said they would like proof took me up on my offer. Not even my offer to describe the scientific model I would be using. The silence in response to my offers was deafening (figuratively speaking). Of cause this brings us to the subject of consciousness, but I think that should have it's own thread. For some of us, "consciousness" is not a separate subject, but, as with matter and spirit, it is all a part of the same thing. de gustibus non disputandem est Precisely, Bill. Couldn't have put it better myself. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Matter and Spirit From: Bill D Date: 17 Aug 04 - 05:42 PM Carole...I, for one, would LOVE to have those things proved true...not just to those who experience them, but to all. I can't read minds, see the future, see auras, influence plants, remember past lives, 'feel' crystals, perform out-of-body visualizations, talk to spirits, heal illness, levitate, bend spoons, read tea leaves, see fairies in my garden...or ANY of the things often discussed here. If you TRULY can, I am envious, and would love to either learn how, or find out before I die why not....if you can't, and it is all only subjective, wishful thinking...I'd like to know that too....Simply telling me "Oh, **I** know it's real, but it is by definition untestable!" won't do for someone like me who like answers, not claims. I try to always have an open mind and not state categorically that ALL that is totally impossible, but the ONLY alternative for someone who studied 'thinking' seriously is to be a careful skeptic and distrust answers that seem too pat, vague and 'fuzzy'. What else can I do, poor thing who had his receptors damaged due to too much Country Music in Kansas? *grin* There are several issues...who is 'right'? How can we KNOW? and Does it make any practical difference? At different times, one of these issues is more relevant than the others. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Matter and Spirit From: CarolC Date: 17 Aug 04 - 06:06 PM I didn't see you indicate any interest in knowing what I have in mind for a scientific model to test the effect of spiritual energy on plants, Bill. Why is that, if as you say, you are seriously interested in exploring these possibilities with an open mind? |
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Subject: RE: BS: Matter and Spirit From: CarolC Date: 17 Aug 04 - 06:10 PM Here's the post again in case anyone missed it. I posted it four days ago: Subject: RE: BS: Matter and Spirit From: CarolC - PM Date: 13 Aug 04 - 06:58 PM TBPL, the energy is what's already there. As I said, they work with the energy that's in the vicinity of the crystal. I agree that one of the problems with trying to do a test involving my own perceptions of energy would be tricky, although I don't think necessarily impossible. That's why I have proposed an experiment involving plants. There's a woman in Jeffersonton Virginia who does this kind of experimentation. I first discovered the unpleasant reaction I experience around large Genesa crystals while visiting her experimental gardens. I can set up a test using the scientific model we used at the U of MD for herbicides, to measure the effect of spiritual energy on plants. And by "measure" I mean physically measure. I already have a small Genesa crystal and the materials for two identical container gardens with the only variable being the Genesa crystal, possibly in tandem with some other kinds of spiritual energy conductors. This would not be difficult to do. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Matter and Spirit From: Wolfgang Date: 17 Aug 04 - 06:11 PM protron or Neutron orbiting the nucleus (Two Bears) Please, Two Bears, take your analogies from birds and bees or any other field in which you have some knowledge, but not from physics. Your lack of basic knowledge is embarassing. As for that one study claiming to have found an effect of prayer upon well being, that's just one among many with negative results, and not a very good one, methodologically speaking. But this one study is cited all over again in the one-sided literature and all critical commentaries are of course omitted. Another study that was not only double-blind but triple-blind has found no effect. So what? If you want to learn a bit more about such studies and the methodological pitfalls this old post from me is a good start and gives some hints where to find the original sources. The small print in the sections about methods is what you have to read when you want to give an informed opinion about these studies. Secondary sources as the ones you recommend are a bad start. In the old ages, people all over the world have been puzzled by things moving and not moving in their environments. That's how most of them explained it to themselves: The things moving had to have some 'life energy' (psyche, anima, or whatever) in them, to make them different from things not moving by themselves. Therefore the old Greek, for instance had a god moving the sun, a god moving the ocean waters when he was in a bad mood, a god for the winds. The Germans had all kinds of gods for each well, each waterfall. That was one way of coming to grips with the observations that some things move by themselves and others don't. Nothing of any real value (in the sense of prediction and manipulation) has come out of these assumptions. They appeal to the intuitive mind, but as an explanation with predictive power they fall completely flat. The well stops giving water because a god (spirit) is angry? Cul de sac. Since long, the postulate of spirits as movers of wells, waterfalls, trees has been given up in science (not in fables, tales, but that is a different story). The increaes in knowledge about what moves the water, what makes the clouds move, what makes the trees grow has been tremendous. No wonder then that recent attempts to explain what makes the animals move (and later, perhaps, what make man move) look not at a failed program of explanation of which never anything worthwhile has come out, but at a successful set of ideas. The group who has studied all 1000 neurons of a normal fly has done more to our understanding of autoception of the fly and of how a fly moves (in a way that to an observer may even look full of purpose) has done more than centuries of philosophers. Humans tend to see intentions where nothing but a complicated neural circuitry is in action. Look for instance at how chess games between a human and a machine are commented. I have yet to see a comment avoiding concepts like 'intention' for moves of the machine. 'Fritz 8 is trying to block the line for the rook and at the same time bring his bishop into the game to put more pressure upon the knight defending the king'. Complex machine action looks to us like founded upon intentions. That's how we perceive it and how we describe it. I've no problem with that language at all. It is my own language when I speak about these things in daily life. But as a start for a research programm it is worthless. And that is the reason why the people doing actual research do not follow any other programm and not that they only want proof that it isn't true.. Wolfgang |
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Subject: RE: BS: Matter and Spirit From: CarolC Date: 17 Aug 04 - 06:17 PM ...and here's the post where I offered to describe the scientific model that I have in mind. Not one person took me up on my offer to even just to describe it to see if it is a legitimate scientific model: Subject: RE: BS: Matter and Spirit From: CarolC - PM Date: 13 Aug 04 - 07:43 PM "CarolC ... you would not be the best candidate to set up the test and I'm sure you would not want me to do it! It would have to be done by a third party. Who'd believe either one of us? ;o) Plus we're in two different countries." Is that you TBPL? I don't see any reason why I couldn't be a good candidate for conducting a test that uses a rigid scientific model with detailed records and exact measurements. I can describe the model for you if you want. Perhaps the results of the herbicide testing are available for examination? I have no idea. It was the College Park campus. I worked there during the summer of 1979, I believe. The department head was Dr. Ron Ritter. I believe Roundup was one of the herbicides we were testing, but I'm not sure. Here's a Google search with "university of maryland" herbicide "dr. ron ritter" as the search parameters. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Matter and Spirit From: CarolC Date: 17 Aug 04 - 06:19 PM Perhaps the results of the herbicide testing are available for examination? This part of my last post should have been in quotes because I was quoting someone else's post. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Matter and Spirit From: Little Hawk Date: 17 Aug 04 - 06:26 PM Everyone's lack of basic knowledge about something can be seen as embarrassing if you want to find it embarrassing. Just depends on what the subject might be. Most people's lack of knowledge of Bob Dylan's lyrics is really embarrassing, for example. At least, I think so. :-) In your case, Wolfgang, I think you are demonstrating a certain lack of knowledge (or awareness) regarding spiritual matters. In this respect Two Bears and you could both choose to be embarrassed by the other...or not. Depends on the degree of mutual respect, I suppose. Is Two Bears supposed to know more about practical science than you do about spiritual things...or is there room for comparing notes? If I want a science question answered, Wolfgang, you are one of the first people I would ask, because you know your science. If it's a question about healing techniques, I'd ask Two Bears. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Matter and Spirit From: CarolC Date: 17 Aug 04 - 06:53 PM Woah... LH and Amos! Check it out. I've just discovered a major paranormal phenomenon! All of my posts that mention the words "scientific model" are completely invisible to Pied Piper, TBPL, Bill D, and various other scientifically minded people in this thread! |
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Subject: RE: BS: Matter and Spirit From: Little Hawk Date: 17 Aug 04 - 07:02 PM That may be because those posts do not appear to support their chosen argument very well. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Matter and Spirit From: CarolC Date: 17 Aug 04 - 10:45 PM I think I'll test my hypothesis about some of my posts being invisible to some people by describing the process we used in our herbicide experiments at the U of Md. If everyone can see this post, then it will probably be safe to conclude that my invisibility hypothesis was incorrect. We had experimental plots measured out and planted with whatever crop we were testing the herbicide on. The plot was then staked and made into a grid. This comprised several rows of rectangluar areas with a pathway in between each row of rectangles. Each rectangle recieved a different treatment. Some of them had nothing applied to them. These were the controls. The rest of the rectangles had various herbicides applied to them. Some of them had just one herbicide applied to them. Some of them had a combination of herbicides applied to them. We kept careful records of what was applied to each area (and in what quantities), and which areas were the controls. We then allowed the crops to grow and we used the standard methods of caring for the crops while they grew, except that we only cultivated the pathways in between the rows (using a garden hoe). We left the weeds that grew within the experimental areas alone. When the crops were ready to harvest, they were cut and left within their rectangle. We then harvested the contents of each rectangle into big plastic lawn and garbage bags, and labled them according to the rectangle they were harvested from. The crops were stored in a large walk-in refrigerator until they were ready to be sorted. We sorted them bag by bag. First we sorted out the crop and weighed it. Then we sorted the weeds according to category... broad-leafed weeds (dandilions, plantain, etc.), grasses, etc. We weighed each category of weed. We recorded all of the weights of the crops, and different categories of weed. I wasn't involved in tabulating the results, but they took the information from the records of what was applied to which rectangle of crop (and the controls), and the information from the records of what we measured of the weeds and the crops, and they did their statistical magic to arrive at the results of the experiment. We had plots at Poplar Hill and the Wye Plantation on the eastern shore of Maryland (USA), and several plots in various locations around Montgomery, Prince Georges, and Carroll Counties in Maryland (USA). |
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Subject: RE: BS: Matter and Spirit From: Bill D Date: 17 Aug 04 - 11:05 PM I've just discovered a major paranormal phenomenon! All of my posts that mention the words "scientific model" are completely invisible to Pied Piper, TBPL, Bill D, and various other scientifically minded people in this thread! *grin*...Carol...what you have 'discovered' is time, energy and focus constraints upon denizens of Online Forums. I saw the original post, and sort of remember thinking..."well, if Carol was still near here, maybe...."...then I got lost in other posts and issues. (I even clicked briefly on the link you posted) It would be fascinating to see a serious study such as you suggest, but I could only be a limited observer, not an administrator, of such a study. I understand the basic principles of such studies, but *I* am not trained in the details of setting them up, nor in the analysis of statistics. What do you think could be arranged, given the current situation? Now...you need a new hypothesis about invisibility. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Matter and Spirit From: CarolC Date: 17 Aug 04 - 11:17 PM That's good, Bill. I didn't really like my invisibility hypothesis anyway. *g* Since you have expressed an interest, I'll come up with a workable model that won't require much in the way of statistical analysis, and I'll post it probably tomorrow (possibly the day after tomorrow). I don't think it should require anyone to oversee it if I make it fairly simple and if I use very detailed measurements and record-keeping. That's the normal way that science is done. They don't have people watching over everyone's shoulder all the time to keep them honest. They just require that the experiment be immaculately set up and documented so that anyone else who wants to will be able to repeat it him or herself. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Matter and Spirit From: GUEST,Clint Keller Date: 18 Aug 04 - 12:43 AM "Complex machine action looks to us like founded upon intentions. That's how we perceive it and how we describe it. I've no problem with that language at all. It is my own language when I speak about these things in daily life. But as a start for a research programm it is worthless..." What about your own actions, Wolfgang? Is it your opinion that they are founded upon intentions or do you think that "nothing but a complicated neural circuitry is in action," and your consciousness is just along for the ride and only thinks it's (at least sometimes) steering? I myself feel that I'm on autopilot far too much, but there are times when I get to steer. B F Skinner said it's all cause and effect, but It seems to me he contradicted himself... To quote Sir j0hn: waht you think? clint |
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Subject: RE: BS: Matter and Spirit From: Two_bears Date: 18 Aug 04 - 01:42 AM Sooo... no takers for this ready cash then. If Mr Randi is such an egotistical person, wipe the smile off his face by taking the money off him! His ego is beside the point of course - a classic case of attacking the man not the ball. Go on the net and read the trvails of Sifu Richard Mooney and the pompous Randi. Mr. Mooney contributed material to the book "The Ultimate Martial Art" by Paul Dong, and Mr. Mooney was one of the several Qigong masters I interviewed about some people being insensitive to detect this subtle lifeforce energy. Mr. Randi is simply a fool. He is fond of making statement (there is no energy field around the body) when kirlian photography has proven there IS an energy field around plants and people. ANL - 2B |
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Subject: RE: BS: Matter and Spirit From: Two_bears Date: 18 Aug 04 - 01:50 AM Carole...I, for one, would LOVE to have those things proved true...not just to those who experience them, but to all. I can't read minds, see the future, see auras, influence plants, remember past lives, 'feel' crystals, perform out-of-body visualizations, talk to spirits, heal illness, levitate, bend spoons, read tea leaves, see fairies in my garden...or ANY of the things often discussed here. Ahem: Bill. I teach people how to heal almost every day, and I would bet that I could teach you to see and FEEL auras in 5 minutes or less. ANL - 2B |
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Subject: RE: BS: Matter and Spirit From: Wolfgang Date: 18 Aug 04 - 05:07 AM What about your own actions, Wolfgang? Is it your opinion that they are founded upon intentions or do you think that "nothing but a complicated neural circuitry is in action Clint, I'd talk about them in our everyday language, but I think that a description in terms of neural circuitry is a better approach for doing research. Wolfgang |
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Subject: RE: BS: Matter and Spirit From: Pied Piper Date: 18 Aug 04 - 06:27 AM I am perfectly familiar with the wide range of religious views held by people, these ideas aren't complicated or difficult to understand (unlike some areas Science and Mathematics), and here at mudcat were dealing with a small subset of these beliefs. The mudcat Mystics are like us all a product of their times; the 60's. The baby boom generation's adoption of heterodox attitudes, imported from various eastern "spiritual paradises" has now become orthodox, and American capitalism has taken it to its sweaty bosom. Self appointed "Gurus" like Sai baba now hold many Americans in thrall mentally and financially, and use their power to abuse their followers. Add to this a crop of home grown frauds, coffee-table book writing, charlatans, and the effort involved in understanding Science, it's no wonder these view are popular. Perhaps PT Barnum was right, but I'm optimistic that the truth will out. PP |
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Subject: RE: BS: Matter and Spirit From: Amos Date: 18 Aug 04 - 07:13 AM I am perfectly familiar with the wide range of religious views held by people Aside from sounding pompous, this statement also rings untrue. A |
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Subject: RE: BS: Matter and Spirit From: Pied Piper Date: 18 Aug 04 - 11:12 AM Ask me a question then. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Matter and Spirit From: CarolC Date: 18 Aug 04 - 11:29 AM Ask me a question then. --Pied Piper Here's one- what sort of sensation do I experience when I get too close to an energy vortex? |
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Subject: RE: BS: Matter and Spirit From: HRH ted of hull Date: 18 Aug 04 - 11:31 AM 198 |
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Subject: RE: BS: Matter and Spirit From: Amos Date: 18 Aug 04 - 11:39 AM PP: How is the relationship between material space-time and individual spirit defined in non-Christian and/or agnostic metaphysics? A |
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Subject: RE: BS: Matter and Spirit From: HRH ted of hull Date: 18 Aug 04 - 11:40 AM 200. i thank you. |
