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BS: New Pope Elected
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Subject: BS: New Pope Elected From: mooman Date: 19 Apr 05 - 12:46 PM Cardinal Joseph Ratzinger. Benedict XVI |
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Subject: RE: BS: New Pope Elected From: wysiwyg Date: 19 Apr 05 - 12:48 PM Really!? An interim, then. I'm so pleased. I'm not even Catholic but I can't even imagine anyone else as Pope, except JP, yet. ~S~ |
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Subject: RE: BS: New Pope Elected From: DougR Date: 19 Apr 05 - 12:50 PM Wasn't he a Nazi? Seems to me I read where he was. It will be interesting to see which direction he leads the church. I would assume there will be little change though. DougR |
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Subject: RE: BS: New Pope Elected From: John MacKenzie Date: 19 Apr 05 - 12:56 PM The more things change the more they remain the same. G.. |
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Subject: RE: BS: New Pope Elected From: Wolfgang Date: 19 Apr 05 - 01:08 PM He was barely eighteen when the war ended. Like close to 100% of German boys at that time he probably was member in the Hitler youth. How that fact alone makes him a Nazi I don't know. Wolfgang |
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Subject: RE: BS: New Pope Elected From: GUEST,TIA Date: 19 Apr 05 - 01:08 PM He was a member of the Hitler Youth. Never a member of the Nazi Party. Conscripted into the German Army, but deserted. Was in an American POW camp when the war ended. |
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Subject: RE: BS: New Pope Elected From: GUEST,mg Date: 19 Apr 05 - 01:18 PM I don't feel good about this. There were so many less controversial people to chose from...I was betting on the one from Honduras...and hoping like probably most Catholics I know for one from South America or Africa...anyone but two people: Law or Ratzinger. And I can not presume to know how they would be as pope; perhaps they are God's gift to the world truly. But I feel sick to my stomach. mg |
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Subject: RE: BS: New Pope Elected From: GUEST Date: 19 Apr 05 - 02:07 PM Yes, God's Rottweiler has been elected pope. From ABC News: "Ratzinger's stern leadership of the Congregation of the Doctrine of the Faith, the modern successor to the Inquisition, delighted conservative Catholics but upset moderates and other Christians whose churches he described as deficient." This isn't good news for the American and European Catholic churches or for the developing world's faithful, to have a fundamentalist idealogue who has been completely out of touch with the pastoral side of the church for nearly 25 years, as their new pope. But hey--I've always said the faithful get the pope they deserve, just like the people get the president they deserve. I'm sure the conservative fundie camps in the US are celebrating tonight! |
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Subject: RE: BS: New Pope Elected From: Megan L Date: 19 Apr 05 - 02:08 PM He is probably right for the moment, with the best will in the world his will probably be a short tenure, and the changeover from him to another will be less fraught than from a leader of long standing. |
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Subject: RE: BS: New Pope Elected From: GUEST Date: 19 Apr 05 - 02:11 PM Don't assume that because the dude is 78 years old, that he will be short lived. People with his sort of "best healthcare money can buy" and his level of wealth and privlege, often live into their 90s these days. Just how is it that a divisive, secretive, power mad pope will be good for Catholicism AND the world? |
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Subject: RE: BS: New Pope Elected From: WFDU - Ron Olesko Date: 19 Apr 05 - 02:13 PM talk about secretive, you won't even use a handle in the forum! |
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Subject: RE: BS: New Pope Elected From: GUEST Date: 19 Apr 05 - 02:16 PM And I ain't runnin' for pope either. |
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Subject: RE: BS: New Pope Elected From: WFDU - Ron Olesko Date: 19 Apr 05 - 02:16 PM Thank God! |
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Subject: RE: BS: New Pope Elected From: GUEST Date: 19 Apr 05 - 02:19 PM And pass the ammunition. |
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Subject: RE: BS: New Pope Elected From: WFDU - Ron Olesko Date: 19 Apr 05 - 02:20 PM amen |
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Subject: RE: BS: New Pope Elected From: open mike Date: 19 Apr 05 - 02:38 PM did anyone actually SEE the white smoke and can you provide a link to it? |
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Subject: RE: BS: New Pope Elected From: open mike Date: 19 Apr 05 - 02:53 PM picture of white smoke |
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Subject: RE: BS: New Pope Elected From: Peace Date: 19 Apr 05 - 02:57 PM 'nother pic of white smoke . . . . |
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Subject: RE: BS: New Pope Elected From: Once Famous Date: 19 Apr 05 - 03:10 PM Condom stocks just went down. |
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Subject: RE: BS: New Pope Elected From: GUEST Date: 19 Apr 05 - 03:31 PM Death by illegal back street abortion just went up. |
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Subject: RE: BS: New Pope Elected From: mg Date: 19 Apr 05 - 03:42 PM well, if you are Catholic at least try to get his blessing when he makes it/...has he yet? Do reruns count? there is some sort of great benefit to it AS i REcall. mg |
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Subject: RE: BS: New Pope Elected From: PoppaGator Date: 19 Apr 05 - 03:54 PM Does anyone seriously believe that people curently buying condoms will stop doing so because of who's been named Pope? |
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Subject: RE: BS: New Pope Elected From: wysiwyg Date: 19 Apr 05 - 04:23 PM I get the feeling a number of people researched ALL the likely candidates, ahead of time, so as to be ready to fling shit at the earliest moment possible once someone was chosen. I've also been wondering, what is it that harms you personally, about this, if you are not even Catholic? Yes, I'm concerned about my fellow men and women all over the planet too, but how does the choice of Pope actually mess with your own life, if he's not YOUR Pope? If he has no power over you, where's the beef? ~Susan |
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Subject: RE: BS: New Pope Elected From: PoppaGator Date: 19 Apr 05 - 05:03 PM Susan, some of us are Catholic and some non-Catholic ~ but a lot of us are ex-Catholic or semi-Catholic or disaffected-Catholic, too. Also, as many folks here have observed (including you, if I'm not mistaken), the role of the Pope on the world stage is so prominent that his identity and his policies have an impact on everyone. That's why not everyone is ready to shut up and accept this decision without commment. It's true that individuals sometimes defy all expectations and surprise all the pundits after ascending to office. Those situations, however, as the exceptions that prove the rule. |
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Subject: RE: BS: New Pope Elected From: wysiwyg Date: 19 Apr 05 - 05:56 PM PG, I'm not suggesting people shut up and not comment. I am asking specifically how it harms, on the individual level, outside the membership. I don't see it; so I am asking, so I CAN see it. I think if people would address that, it would make a great topic for our ministry class to discuss. It's a fair question. It does not have to be taken defensively or as an attempt to control either the discussion or the people in that discussion. It's a question on several levels, one being diversity of polity among denominations. See, in our denomination, people are elected at all levels. We elect the clergy who serve in a parish. We elect our bishops, both diocesan and assisting. We elect delegates to the convention that administers diocesan affairs and processes, as well as to the denominational convention that administers the national church. There is a system of checks and balances in this different from the checks and balances the USA form of government offers, but it is an effective one-- especially given the reality that people can and do vote with their feet, as well as with their financial pledges. So again-- How does the choice of Pope actually [directly] mess with your own life, if he's not YOUR Pope? ~Susan |
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Subject: RE: BS: New Pope Elected From: GUEST Date: 19 Apr 05 - 05:56 PM And some of us ex-Catholics still read National Catholic Reporter (and hence knew a bit about the papabiles) because, after all, there are over a billion Catholics on the planet. Doesn't take a rocket scientist to figure out that the doctrine's reach is global, and that Vatican politics aren't local--in fact, they are pretty damn global too. As I said before, the fundamentalist conservative First World politicians, religio-politicians, and the corporate Christians who finance them are going to be partying tonight. |
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Subject: RE: BS: New Pope Elected From: wysiwyg Date: 19 Apr 05 - 06:01 PM Guest, I am asking specifically how it harms, on the individual level, outside the membership. I don't see it; so I am asking, so I CAN see it. So-- how does the doctrine's global reach and the Vatican's global politics, impact your life directly? ~Susan |
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Subject: RE: BS: New Pope Elected From: GUEST,saulgoldie Date: 19 Apr 05 - 07:51 PM I am part of humanity. And humanity is dramatically affected by over-population. And over-population is a HUEG problem that affects ALL of us. And over-population could be much more succesfully addressed if one billion of humanity's members were formally allowed to use birth control instead of being sharply rebuked for doing so. And they could also prevent the spread of a heckuvalot of sexually transmitted disease. None of this immediately affects me as I sit here typing, but it DOES affect the whole of humanity of which I am a member. And rigid lack of acceptance of my gay and lesbian brothers and sisters also affects me by causing them undue suffering and torment. That is how the Vatican's policies affect all of us, really. |
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Subject: RE: BS: New Pope Elected From: Joe Offer Date: 19 Apr 05 - 07:54 PM Well, I'm hoping we'll be pleasantly surprised. The guy was in an "enforcer" position as head of the Congregation for the Doctrine of the Faith (formerly the Holy Office, formerly the Holy Inquisition). Now he's in a pastoral position, called to minister to the entire Catholic Church. People say that in personal relationships, he is very gracious and generous, and he's supposed to be a brilliant intellectual. I'm certainly willing to reserve judgement and wait to see how he does as Pope. Benedict/Ratzinger was known as a progressive when he taught with Hans Küng at the University of Tübingen. His transformation into a conservative is somewhat mysterious, although I understand that he was terrified when a mob of students overran his classroom during the days of the Red Army Faction in the 1970's. Anyhow, I can't say I'm at all pleased by this election. As I've said before, there have been only two infallible statements made by the popes since the 1870's. Ratzinger made an attempt to have a third made infallible after the fact, John Paul II's statement that the Church had no authority to ordain women. The results were inconclusive, and Church backed off on trying to enforce that one as absolutely infallible. Still, I won't pass judgment until I see what he does as Pope. He may surprise us all. John XXIII was certainly a wonderful surprise. -Joe Offer- Take a look at what progressive American Catholics have to say about the new Pope: |
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Subject: RE: BS: New Pope Elected From: mg Date: 19 Apr 05 - 08:28 PM as to the comment that people researched all the candidates so as to be ready with criticism..I don't think so. This one was unique in people having reservations about him..strong ones..maybe incorrect ones but strong nevertheless. I don't think people had the same feelings, gut level wariness if not fear, about the South American cardinals, the old-style Italian ones...except of course Cardinal Law would have inspired a revolution if he had been elected. mg |
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Subject: RE: BS: New Pope Elected From: Bobert Date: 19 Apr 05 - 09:15 PM Diebold involved??? |
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Subject: RE: BS: New Pope Elected From: Bill D Date: 19 Apr 05 - 09:35 PM "...how does the choice of Pope actually mess with your own life..."? like saulgoldie says.... What G.Bush does can affect the life of a Chinese peasant, too. It's that kind of world now. This pope can and will make religious decisions that affect political and political decisions. The pope during WWII did not speak out much against Naziism, and gave Hitler a lot of extra 'muscle-flexing' room. I have no idea what Benedict will do specifically, but his basic attitudes WILL affect the behavior of many people - both postively and negatively, and *I* may be indirectly affected. In these days of instant global communication...TV & internet...etc., it is much easier for someone with clout to press their advantage. Their was an interview with a nun who was earlier instructed by Cardinal Ratzinger to "STOP ministering to gays & lesbians"...she certainly thought his message could affect people beyond her personal life. |
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Subject: RE: BS: New Pope Elected From: Jimmy C Date: 19 Apr 05 - 10:05 PM Why don't we all wait and give the new Holy Father a chance. From what I know of him he is a very intelligentand brilliantindividual. I get the impression that no matter who was elected there would be dissenters in this forum. I am a practising catholic and really thought that a pope from Africa or South America would be a good move, but that was not to be. I have just one comment re progressive changes, that is that, just because they are progressive does not make them right. Everything new is not necessarily the way to go. We have certain beliefs in the catholic church, it is not a buffet table, we cannot choose the ones we want and the ones we don't want. When we deliberatley and knowingly act against the teachings of our faith then we in fact excommunicate ourselves (ego excommunicato) and cease to be a practical catholic., however we all have to live by our own conscience as well, so many things in the world today do cause problems for catholics. The one big concern I have is how to stop the spread of AIDS without the use of condoms ?. It will be a poser for Benedict XVI, and I hope and pray he is guided to make the right moves. |
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Subject: RE: BS: New Pope Elected From: Bobert Date: 19 Apr 05 - 10:41 PM Right, Jimmy C.... No sex, ya all... Especially you teenagers!!! Grear and revolutionary thinging..... NOT... This is not an realist pope... but the Catholic Church's last pipe dream... Some time they are gonna have to cross the bridge into the 20th century and then start lookin' for the one to the 21st century... The Catholic church has just lost a half a million folks today, mostly womenm who have had enough of them preachin about their behavior... Whehn is the Catholic church gonna realize that these women ain't gettin' pregnant by drinking the water from the water cooler??? Yet, the guys walk???? Like I said, the Taliban had a big day today.... Men rule and screw the women.... Ahhhh, literally... Who cares? They are women... Right??? Bobert |
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Subject: RE: BS: New Pope Elected From: dianavan Date: 19 Apr 05 - 11:17 PM |
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Subject: RE: BS: New Pope Elected From: mg Date: 20 Apr 05 - 12:25 AM you don't seem to know much about the Catholic religion Bobert, not that it stops you from, pardon the expression, pontificating. It has hurt the men as much as the women, and will for some time. mg |
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Subject: RE: BS: New Pope Elected From: Wolfgang Date: 20 Apr 05 - 09:45 AM His transformation into a conservative is somewhat mysterious, although I understand that he was terrified when a mob of students overran his classroom during the days of the Red Army Faction in the 1970's. (Joe Offer) That's what we read about him and these days. He was a very shy professor with a high pitched voice. To be shouted down and to be ridiculed by a bully-party of students was his personal Damascus event. Amidst the student rebellion he turned -disappointed by those he originally felt close with- into a conservative and went back from liberal Tübingen into his native, unflexible, conservative Bavaria. Wolfgang |
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Subject: RE: BS: New Pope Elected From: GUEST Date: 20 Apr 05 - 11:36 AM Only half of all Catholics world-wide have a voice in their church--male Catholics. That silence is harming everyone. Another way that the teachings of the Catholic church harm non-Catholics: the lies they are spreading about how condoms are one of the causes of AIDs transmission, which undermines the education and AIDs efforts of non-Catholic aid workers trying to stem the tide in places like Africa (where sex outside marriage is very common), and in Asia, where the forced prostitution trade and child sex trade has resulted in an explosion of the disease. The Catholic church is knee deep in the blood of those innocents who have died of AIDs as a result of the Catholic church's anti-condom propaganda in the developing world. |
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Subject: RE: BS: New Pope Elected From: GUEST Date: 20 Apr 05 - 11:46 AM Excuse me, but being confronted by a mob of students isn't a very good justification for becoming a conservative--especially for someone who is supposed to be a great intellectual. Great intellectuals can certainly sort the wheat from the chaff, and should be able to distinguish between a mob mentality/confrontation, and genuine intellectual arguments. I mean, that is just about as dumb as the "everyone was in the Hitler Youth" defense. My take on this is Ratzinger's involvement in the Hitler Youth, regardless of whether it was "innocent" or "a youthful indiscretion" (as I heard it described on the news last night) should have disqualified him, or anyone else who served the Nazis, from ever being pope. In this day and age, THAT ought to be a no-brainer! "No Nazis Need Apply". Well, duh! You can't claim to be apologizing to the Jews and asking their forgiveness, while simultaneously electing someone pope who once served the Nazis in Germany. And it doesn't take a rocket scientist OR a gifted intellectual to figure that one out. |
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Subject: RE: BS: New Pope Elected From: Amos Date: 20 Apr 05 - 11:53 AM From Slate: "Benedict has long inveighed against what he sees as lax standards on morality, doctrine, and the primacy of Catholicism. He's disciplined priests who've pushed for reform, in the 1980s purging liberation theologists; in a letter he issued in 2000, titled Dominus Jesus, he dubbed other faiths "gravely deficient;" and as the Los Angeles Times editorial page details, he wrote that pro-choice politicians should be denied communion. " Looks like more of the same old crap from Dominion Central. Sheeshe. To take a basic need in man, such as the need for faith in the broad spiritual sense, and convert into such machinery and trappings, is a cosmic crime. A |
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Subject: RE: BS: New Pope Elected From: Jimmy C Date: 20 Apr 05 - 02:30 PM Guest Re: Another way that the teachings of the Catholic church harm non-Catholics: the lies they are spreading about how condoms are one of the causes of AIDs transmission, which undermines the education and AIDs efforts of non-Catholic aid workers trying to stem the tide in places like Africa (where sex outside marriage is very common), and in Asia, where the forced prostitution trade and child sex trade has resulted in an explosion of the disease. Where the hell did you get that from. The catholic church forbids condoms - but only for catholics, you and I know that many catholics use condoms and birth control etc. The church may condemn them but cannot stop the manufacture, distribution and purchase of them. The forced prostitution etc is not caused by the church - it is caused by poverty, corrupt governments and the greed of adults in those countries, adults who put money in front of everything, why don't these pimps supply the condoms. how can you blame the church on that ?. |
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Subject: RE: BS: New Pope Elected From: mandoleer Date: 20 Apr 05 - 06:03 PM Trouble is, the Roman Catholic church sends out its missionaries, and these missionaries spread the word about no contraception, and the converts take it on, and spread the word to non-converts they know and so it spreads outside the faith. Some of the people in the less educated areas will take info like this as (for want of a better word) gospel if it comes from people (missionaries) that they consider to be better educated than they are. Incidentally, interesting to see a member of the Higher Echelons of the Church here, the PoppaGator of the Faith.... |
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Subject: RE: BS: New Pope Elected From: Burke Date: 20 Apr 05 - 06:14 PM Ratzinger made an attempt to have a third made infallible after the fact, John Paul II's statement that the Church had no authority to ordain women. I wonder if that means he'll make the statement again infallibly. That seems like a bad idea. The male only tradition would be hard enough to change as it is, but it's possible that in the future the change would come. An "infallible" statement ties the hands of your successors. Maybe now that he's in the seat, he'll realize the implications of this. Only half of all Catholics world-wide have a voice in their church--male Catholics. That silence is harming everyone. Only 117 of all Catholics world-wide have a voice and that only when a new pope is being selected. The Roman Catholic Church is not a democracy. That's why there are so many cultural conflicts between the Church & Northern members. It is a world-wide church & it seems pretty obvious that the most important issues for Western Europeans & Ameriancs are not the same as in Africa, South America, the Phillippines, etc. See the Anglican Communion to see how the fracture lines run. |
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Subject: RE: BS: New Pope Elected From: DougR Date: 20 Apr 05 - 06:21 PM I am not a Roman Catholic so my opinion doesn't matter much one way or the other. However, I think Joe Offer is right. Give the man a chance to perform before hanging him. As to the church changing it's attitude on birth control, women priests, or priests marrying, I seriously doubt those changes will take place, and doubt another choice would have resulted in anything different along those lines. Those are among the backbone issues in the church and I just don't see them changing. I can understand some catholics wanting to see a change in those areas, and I guess it sort of presents a dilema for them. Stay in the church, but only observe those practices that you approve of, or leave the church. I do think assigning the terms Liberal and Conservative to describe a Pope's beliefs is a bit far fetched though. Those terms should be reserved for politics I believe. DougR |
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Subject: RE: BS: New Pope Elected From: robomatic Date: 20 Apr 05 - 06:52 PM Wolfgang: Your point about linking the change in attitude to 'street' experience is well taken. A person may have strong political convictions but they may be modified by experience. One may have sympathies for a position which are then undermined due to lack of self-control on the part of the political forces on that side. This is were the desire for 'law and order' may trump the desire for freedom of action. Fear of anarchy, a constant peril in all societies. As for the conservatism of the current leadership, I noticed that Pope John Paul II was extremely charismatic at all age levels, but apparently this did not lead to American Catholics practising his dicta re: birth control any differently than Americans in general. It seems that the Western world, Catholic included, practices birth control if only for protection against disease, but probably also as population check. The new area of Catholic population growth seems to be in Africa and Asia, and population pressure would probably be the same regardless of what the Roman Catholic Church preached. Possibly the Pope has only his charisma anymore to ENFORCE his wishes, so it is possible for him to be praised, loved, and to an extent, ignored. |
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Subject: RE: BS: New Pope Elected From: EagleWing Date: 21 Apr 05 - 12:59 PM Doug R I do think assigning the terms Liberal and Conservative to describe a Pope's beliefs is a bit far fetched though. Those terms should be reserved for politics I believe. The idea of liberal and conservative (small l and c) have been in use to describe theology and ecclesiology for a very long time. Neither is an exclusively political word and it is not in the least far-fetched to use them to describe religious belief. I would, for instance, describe my own belief system as "theologically conservative but ethically fairly liberal". Those terms, in church usage, date back a long way. Frank L. |
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Subject: RE: BS: New Pope Elected From: GUEST Date: 22 Apr 05 - 12:01 PM So is it okay to have sex with children if you use a condom?? What fucking horseshit. Blame the Catholic Church for disgusting practices in Asia and Africa?? No ones cock belongs to the Church. How can you fuck a child anyway, be they a slave or not. Aids will spread further because people have no control over themselves!! How could any church make a difference there?? |
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Subject: RE: BS: New Pope Elected From: Amos Date: 25 Apr 05 - 11:06 AM "Benedict Says He Prayed Not to Be Elected Tuscaloosa News (subscription) - 16 minutes ago By DANIELA PETROFF. Pope Benedict XVI said Monday he had viewed the idea of being elected pope as a "guillotine," and he prayed to God during the recent conclave to be spared selection but "evidently this time He didn't listen to me.". ..." Hmmmmm....doesn't that disqualify him? George Bush didn't have that problem. A |
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Subject: RE: BS: New Pope Elected From: Donuel Date: 25 Apr 05 - 11:25 AM I don't know any Catholics who voted for him. I suspect damn few Catholics know any of the Cardinals who did vote. |
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Subject: RE: BS: New Pope Elected From: GUEST,Sir jOhn Date: 25 Apr 05 - 08:00 PM He looks a bit happier than the old one, he was a right miserable old bastard! |
