BS: Is the Rapture Underway???

Subject: RE: BS: Is the Rapture Underway???
From: Don(Wyziwyg)T
Date: 08 Aug 13 - 07:23 AM

A vicar was out walking one day, when he spied the most beautiful garden, and in it a little old man workng diligently away, snipping here and tying there, raking and hoeing.

The vicar stood and watched a while, the said "Good Morning".

"Good morning to you, Reverend", said the gardener.

"My word, what a beautiful garden you have made with God's help" said the vicar.

The old man gave him a quizzical look, then "Aye vicar, but you should have seen it when God had it on his own!"

Don T.

Subject: RE: BS: Is the Rapture Underway???
From: Bill D
Date: 08 Aug 13 - 11:20 AM

"..when it comes to evolutionism, Christians usually know what the bible says but many give more credence to Darwin.the scripture becomes subservient to shifting evolutionary ideas."

And there we have the crux of the debate. At some point, the evidence for scientific explanations in paleontology, geology, cosmology, anthropology..etc., becomes so strong that 'many Christians' feel they MUST discard---not the Bible--- but literal interpretations of it. It is not a matter of "becoming subservient" but rather of sharing the stage. Don't YOU know people who consider themselves to be good Christians, but who just accept the idea that 'evolution' is how God set up the workings of the universe?
I often look at a web site about astronomy. Today there was a link to this site about Cosmology. I don't understand 90% of the math references, but what I can glean from it is that those who do that math, after observations, are daily learning more & more about the size... and age... of 'everything'. It is awe inspiring... but it is measurable, just as things beneath our feet are measurable. If folks want to believe that some all-powerful force they call 'God' started it all, I can only shrug. Maybe it happened that way... but *IF* a god gave us the mind and brains to measure his creations and write about them, I can't imagine He'd want us to limit our knowlege to one set of ideas written in one collection of stories passed on by fallible scribes for several thousand years!

Subject: RE: BS: Is the Rapture Underway???
From: Bill D
Date: 08 Aug 13 - 11:27 AM

Oh...by the way. You say you'd heard that joke before in sermons. May I ask what point it was supposed to make? I'm rather surprised to hear it was used in church.

(Don's joke about the vicar & gardener is good, but I can easily see the religious answer to it, whereas I am not sure about the bridge joke)

Subject: RE: BS: Is the Rapture Underway???
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 08 Aug 13 - 03:01 PM

Don't YOU know people who consider themselves to be good Christians, but who just accept the idea that 'evolution' is how God set up the workings of the universe?

If you know people who make this valiant but misguided accommodation with science, they are no less deluded than pete. That attitude is simply not progress.

Subject: RE: BS: Is the Rapture Underway???
From: Bill D
Date: 08 Aug 13 - 05:28 PM

"If you know people who make this valiant but misguided accommodation with science..."

Steve... I know dozens of people who are religious and believe in a god, but also accept evolution and an old universe and Earth! You probably do too, if you ask around. Worldwide there are many millions. Some of them are very good at science and make positive contributions. To my mind, that is the ONE acceptable solution to the dilemma they face. *I* don't have to buy into that position, but I can't even begin to disprove it!

All I really worry about is those who BOTH believe in inconsistent premises AND try to foist their beliefs on others. Even then, I will discuss/debate it all with them as long as it's done in a polite manner. Who knows... maybe I'll convince one.
(Did you ever hear the story about the jester offering to teach the king's horse to sing?)

Frankly, I would rather have a polite debate with someone I disagree with than be insulted by someone I basically agree with.

Subject: RE: BS: Is the Rapture Underway???
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 08 Aug 13 - 06:14 PM

There's a difference between believing in God and accepting evolution and believing in God thinking that he set evolution up. The latter position is a massive copout that ignores evidence and is no better than creationism.

Subject: RE: BS: Is the Rapture Underway???
From: Bill D
Date: 08 Aug 13 - 08:42 PM

One man's 'cop out' is another man's opinion.

"There's a difference between believing in God and accepting evolution and believing in God thinking that he set evolution up."

No... there is little difference. Logically, *if* one believes in a god at all, that supposed entity 'might' have cognition and control over how reality is organized...in fact, why believe in a god if you don't allow 'it' some properties? *I* don't presume such ideas, just as YOU don't, but we are positing a belief. You are trying to insert YOUR conclusion into a syllogism which you did not construct.

Subject: RE: BS: Is the Rapture Underway???
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 08 Aug 13 - 09:00 PM

Well we're told not to criticise particular versions of God because there are so many. So why not a God who is utterly hands-off?!

And yes, claiming a God whose mucky hands are all over evolution is a total copout. It's a way of having your cake and eating it. Most sensible people of faith or no faith know that evolution can't be denied. But evolution has no striving for goals, no particular direction, is full of errors and blind endings and does not aspire to a perfect finale. Not only do you not need God in all that, there is simply no room for him. Not a single aspect of evolution needs a dose of Godly input or explanation. Trying to harmonise God with evolution is simply desperate. The only honest thing is to choose.

Subject: RE: BS: Is the Rapture Underway???
From: GUEST,pete from seven stars link
Date: 08 Aug 13 - 09:29 PM

when I say that too many Christians are giving more credence to Darwin than the plain reading of the historical narrative of genesis [and other scriptures that support that reading]. I am not saying that those who do trust the scripture do so in the face of evidence to the contrary, as I am sure you realize.
I realize I have expanded on that btw.
in fact I would say that evolutionists believe in that despite all the evidence to the contrary.
take the CMB referenced in the cosmology link - that was the theme of an article by dr john Hartnett on creation.com in the last week.
and just as you confessed to not understanding all the math, so I was lost on the detail in the Hartnett article.
the point is, your presupposition that evolutionism is true leads you to trust the scientists that interpret the data evolutionly.
and I of course admit to trusting scientists who believe the bible = and find scientific evidence in support of that presupposition.
but even not understanding all that heavy stuff,there is still a lot of arguments I can grasp ,things that evolutionists have to do drastic science revision on to bolster up Darwinism.

Subject: RE: BS: Is the Rapture Underway???
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 09 Aug 13 - 06:01 AM

"Evolutionly"? Heheh...

Evolutionary biologists do not need to do drastic revisions, as science is cumulative (a bit like natural selection really). Ideas are constantly revised in the light of new evidence (unlike you, we accept evidence). There is no drastic lurching by the backroom boys to keep the show on the road. Once again you insult science and scientists from your standpoint of extreme ignorance. Of course,if you can demonstrate all this drastic change in thinking, I'll eat my words. But that's about as likely as a duff bottle of Hirondelle.

Subject: RE: BS: Is the Rapture Underway???
From: GUEST,Musket wondering
Date: 09 Aug 13 - 12:05 PM

Here pete, I know some accuse you of not understanding what you write, but considering you don't use capitals except when saying God or I, (elevating yourself a bit there aren't we?) I note that you must have done a cut and paste then gone back and lower cased it. Since when did a British bloke write "math"?

Regarding the post, I got as far as Genesis being portrayed as a historical narrative and gave up. It isn't so stop saying it is. Do you allow children in your church ? If so, I must send an alert to the local safeguarding children board. Saying tradition is truth can stain them for life. Use a mirror if you need an example of how it can screw you up.

There is so much for people to discover, question, find answers to and enjoy that to saddle them with medieval superstition is awful, it really is.

Look at respectable churches where the moral code and parable explanations form the basis. They aren't trying to set back human understanding yet you and your literal idiotic friends are how the poor buggers are judged by rational people. No wonder their relevance is questioned when they see how you disgrace faith.

Subject: RE: BS: Is the Rapture Underway???
From: Greg F.
Date: 09 Aug 13 - 12:16 PM

God must be REALLY fond of ignorance - he's created so very much of it.

Subject: RE: BS: Is the Rapture Underway???
From: Bill D
Date: 09 Aug 13 - 12:48 PM

"...,things that evolutionists have to do drastic science revision on to bolster up Darwinism."

Sorry, Pete... but that is simply not true. Science explains and modifies the details as new data is discovered. They (honest ones) do NOT 'modify' in the sense of inventing spurious data & fallacious logic to artificially bolster theories.

"I am not saying that those who do trust the scripture do so in the face of evidence to the contrary,..."

But I do say that!.... scientific discoveries are evidence. You cannot deny the basics of evolutionary theory without complex, illogical twisting of the implications of radiocarbon dating, DNA analysis, continental drift, glaciation, geological deformation and historical writings NOT related to the Bible (no ancient manuscripts, cave paintings or Aboriginal art depicts dinosaurs).
Yesterday, I stumbled onto the website of Ken Ham, who heads http://www.answersingenesis.org/

He has a number of 1 minute sound bytes which supposedly 'explain' various answers to evolutionist claims. I was beyond appalled at the shallow, silly and distorted simplifications he made.... along with other grossly inaccurate portrayals of scientific data. He asserts specifically that dinosaurs DID live alongside man, and claims that Noah dealt with them. His careless reasoning will convince only those who are already emotionally committed to his position already.

I looked up 'creation museum' and found this discussion on a wiki page. It shows, in as neutral a way as possible under the circumstance, what the claims are and the refutations of them by scientists & educators.

Similar page on Answers_in_Genesis

Pete... these issues are separate from the idea of just believing in a God as the beginning of all things, since it may be impossible to prove that either way.... but what has happened AFTER 'creation', however it may have happened can be studied and measured and analyzed. Some things cannot be ignored just because one chooses to depend on, as I have said, translations and interpretations of ONE 'scripture'.


(Yes, I'm sounding pretty harsh about some things, but Ken Ham and his "Ham-handed" approach just raised my hackles.)

Subject: RE: BS: Is the Rapture Underway???
From: GUEST,Musket gettin.. can't be arsed
Date: 09 Aug 13 - 01:08 PM

He sure did Greg. She sure did.

Subject: RE: BS: Is the Rapture Underway???
From: Mr Happy
Date: 11 Aug 13 - 09:41 AM

Qs & As here:

Subject: RE: BS: Is the Rapture Underway???
From: Bobert
Date: 11 Aug 13 - 10:05 AM

Back to the Rapture...

Please, Jesus, come round up these so-called Christians who are doing some pretty shameful stuff in your name...

Take 'um all...

B~

Subject: RE: BS: Is the Rapture Underway???
From: Greg F.
Date: 11 Aug 13 - 02:43 PM

And take 'em QUICK!

Subject: RE: BS: Is the Rapture Underway???
From: Bill D
Date: 11 Aug 13 - 04:29 PM

"quick" needs to be qualified to included "soon".

Subject: RE: BS: Is the Rapture Underway???
From: Bobert
Date: 11 Aug 13 - 07:27 PM

Yeah, here in NC the GOP statehouse and governor have shut down abortion clinics to "help protect women's health" and disenfranchised 400,000 voters because of 1 fraud case...

And these people all claim to be Christian??? Might of fact, made Christianity the state religion???

B~

Subject: RE: BS: Is the Rapture Underway???
From: Don Firth
Date: 11 Aug 13 - 11:25 PM

The story goes that all the Gods of Mt. Olympus had some pretty lively parties, and they had them fairly often, being a somewhat jolly crew—most of the time.

Often, Gods from other parts of the world would happen to drop in. Gitche Manitou beamed over from North America from time to time, and now and then Odin would make it down from the North.

On one occasion, a God worshiped by several tribes in the Near East, made it up to one of the bashes on Mt. Olympus. He was pretty sullen as Gods go, and while the usual crew were whooping it up and having a good ole time, he suddenly leaped up and shouted, "I am the one and only One True God!!"

When the rest of the Gods heard this, they all died laughing!!

Which explains why Yahweh is, indeed the Only Living God.

Except for Bacchus and Aphrodite, who had gotten drunk as a pair of skunks at the party, were under a table doing "rumpy-pumpy," and didn't hear Yahweh's pronouncement.

Which explains the prevalence, even these days, of booze and sex.

Don Firth

Subject: RE: BS: Is the Rapture Underway???
From: Bill D
Date: 12 Aug 13 - 11:45 AM

Gee Don... that joke/story, phrased differently, comes directly from Nietzsche. I posted it and the original German several weeks ago. I had not encountered it before in modern, 'updated' language. It actually reads better in your format.

Subject: RE: BS: Is the Rapture Underway???
From: Bill D
Date: 12 Aug 13 - 11:52 AM

hmmm... can't find the post with German text.

Subject: RE: BS: Is the Rapture Underway???
From: Don Firth
Date: 12 Aug 13 - 04:49 PM

Guess I missed it, Bill.

I heard that years ago. Didn't know it came from Nietzsche.

Don Firth

Subject: RE: BS: Is the Rapture Underway???
From: GUEST,pete from seven stars link
Date: 12 Aug 13 - 07:00 PM

I don't remember quoting ken ham, bill.mind you, sounds good to me.
dinos were on the ark.
dinos grow progressively larger, so it would have been juveniles taken on board.
the ark measured 450 ft long and had plenty of room for all the original kinds of the creatures aboard.
the recent discoveries relating to dinosaurs strongly suggest a younger age for them.
previous to these discoveries no-one expected soft tissue and blood residue etc to survive 68 million yrs.
but ,of course ,they now know it can, because evolutionism is true [deliberate irony!]
I call that drastic scientific revision.i know that we been here before but I don't recall getting an admission yet that this is what is transpiring.
as you so often do bill,you assert generalizations, ie reel off various disciplines as unquestionably proving the long age,evolutionary pathway, when it is that very paradigm that is under question.i would say that was begging the question, though I suspect it may not technically be ,as that's your area of expertise.

Subject: RE: BS: Is the Rapture Underway???
From: GUEST,Musket evolving slowly
Date: 12 Aug 13 - 07:06 PM

And the animals came in two by two.
And the bacteria came in two by four by sixteen by thirty two by sixth four by two hundred and fifty five by sixteen thousand three hundred and eighty four by. ....

Subject: RE: BS: Is the Rapture Underway???
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 12 Aug 13 - 07:18 PM

Christ on a bike, pete has excelled himself this time. Do some science, pete. I believe there's a PhD going in Tosspottery at Chipping Sodbury Poly...

Subject: RE: BS: Is the Rapture Underway???
From: Bill D
Date: 12 Aug 13 - 10:12 PM

I thought I made a link to my original link to the Nietzsche story, but I messed it up...here 'tis..This is from several years ago

Subject: RE: BS: Is the Rapture Underway???
From: Bill D
Date: 12 Aug 13 - 10:25 PM

and Pete... I really don't know what to say. I'll give YOU a boat 450 ft. long, and you see how many species...even juveniles... you can fit in. Your idea of 'plenty of room' is not consistent with math. Just the food for a number of species for 40 days would take a number of 'support arks'. You MUST do the math, not just assume "God & Noah had it all figured out."

"the recent discoveries relating to dinosaurs strongly suggest a younger age for them." No... they do not...except to those already committed to that answer.

As I said... Ken Ham is beyond careless and silly in his reasoning, I am sad that even you find his attempts useful. At least Creation.com makes an attempt to sound technically sound. Ken Ham just throws out assertions as if he were explaining Santa Claus to 4 year olds.

Subject: RE: BS: Is the Rapture Underway???
From: GUEST
Date: 13 Aug 13 - 12:14 AM

There are quite similar stories to Noah and the Ark in ancient cultures all over the world....meaning: there are stories about a worldwide inundation in ancient times and various people who survived it by building boats or rafts and by finding high ground. The story about "Noah" is probably a story with a strictly local origin in one part of the Middle East, and it is probably symbolic of various survivors who rode out the flood, not just about the literal Noah and his immediate family. To take the story absolutely literally as it is written in the Bible and to thereby discount all the other ancient Great Flood survivor stories from so many other cultures is to base one's belief upon ignorance, willful or otherwise.

There are a great many animal species which would certainly not have been found at all in Noah's part of the world, and they also survived whatever happened, so Noah quite clearly would not have been instrumental in saving those species even if he saved some animals.

The story is probably symbolic of many different people who survived in many different places........a parable, in other words, not a literal tale of what happened.

North American Indians had ancient tales about a Great Flood too, and those tales mentioned some wise or heroic people who survived it by building boats or rafts and by getting to high ground. They were NOT talking about Noah! They were talking about other people in their own part of the world.

To think that the Noah story is the only story to be told about this event is, frankly, ridiculous....but people in any given culture in this world normally believe what they've been told in that culture providing they haven't heard any alternatives to it....and that has been the case with most Christians, Muslims, and Jews for the past few centuries. They were told about Noah. They were not told about all the other similar tales from other cultures and traditions.

What could have caused such a flood? A major change in the Earth's climate or the Earth's atmosphere, that's what...even a huge astronomical event like the passing of another large body in space affecting the Earth. And it may have been something that lasted a longer time and happened more gradually than is told in the Bible account.

Subject: RE: BS: Is the Rapture Underway???
From: Don Firth
Date: 13 Aug 13 - 01:51 AM

The last ice age ended about 10,000 years ago.

There are stories and legends that, characteristically, get greatly amplified in the telling, largely because, not having a clue as to how large the earth really is, some particularly cataclysmic event can expand itself in the telling to encompass the entire world.

Case in point, the tenacious legend of Atlantis. Satellite scans have given a pretty good picture of the oceans' bottoms, revealing previously unknown phenomena such as the Mid-Atlantic Ridge. But—there are no signs of a sunken continent in the Atlantic Ocean. There is, however, Thera, in the eastern Mediterranean, a fairly advanced civilization for the time, which perished in a monumental volcanic eruption, leaving only the ring-shaped island of Santorini, all that's left of a huge crater.

There is evidence that toward the end of the last ice age and for some time after, there was an ice dam blocking the Bosporus. There are also signs of villages at the bottom of the Black Sea. Putting two and two together, it appears that after the end of the ice age, the ice dam eventually melted and let the Mediterranean come flooding into the Black Sea. And the villages built on the hitherto dry bottom

This would have been cataclysmic, and to the locals, it could have seemed as if the flood covered the entire world.

This may have very well been the basis for the legend of a great, worldwide flood—and the basis of the Biblical story of Noah and the Arc.

There is overwhelming evidence that the dinosaurs perished in the aftermath of the Yucatan meteor strike some 65,000,000 years ago. Which, incidentally, gave mammals a chance to evolve.

And—whatever happened to unicorns?

Don Firth

Subject: RE: BS: Is the Rapture Underway???
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 13 Aug 13 - 05:40 AM

To take the story absolutely literally as it is written in the Bible and to thereby discount all the other ancient Great Flood survivor stories from so many other cultures is to base one's belief upon ignorance, willful or otherwise.

As indeed it is, done so balefully by pete and his ramshackle but quite dangerous bunch of literalist fellow-travellers, to base their belief on many another Bible yarn. Creationists, racists, homophobics and misogynists can and do find abundant succour in the good book, literally taken, for their detestable notions. When it comes to religious belief, I can respect private and quietly-held convictions even though I think they're deluded. People who force their beliefs on others, especially on children, and people who are so determined to be literalist that they sneer at anyone of far more measured views who happen to get in the way, are way beyond deserving respect in my view. Far from needing to be defended, they fully deserve to be attacked.

Subject: RE: BS: Is the Rapture Underway???
From: GUEST,Musket evolving slowly
Date: 13 Aug 13 - 09:16 AM

I find pointing and laughing has the same effect as attacking but without them being able to play the victim card.

Organised religions enjoy status in civilised societies that you would never give if they sprung up yesterday. Bigotry, hate, teaching children fantasy as truth, misogyny and up till recently freedom to bugger children whilst preaching love.

Of course, questioning them is by their standards an irrelevant medieval crime called blasphemy. I get fed up of pointing out that only club members can break club rules.

Dinosaurs didn't live at the same time as humans therefore the Noah story is just that, a story. You don't have to go any further in discussion or reason. The only person who wrote of Noah and the ark that I saw any point in was Marriot Edgar. And then for the entertainment value.

Subject: RE: BS: Is the Rapture Underway???
From: Greg F.
Date: 13 Aug 13 - 10:16 AM

The only person who wrote of Noah and the ark that I saw any point in was Marriot Edgar

Bill Cosby had a pretty good routine, too.
Click Here

Subject: RE: BS: Is the Rapture Underway???
From: GUEST,pete from seven stars link
Date: 13 Aug 13 - 02:43 PM

bill= my point is still being skirted around, not addressed.
no-one believed soft stuff could survive 68 million yrs, even under the most favourable conditions.
according to evolutionism they must have.
to quote your own words "....already committed to that answer"

as you say CMI are making an "attempt to sound technically sound" and I will pas by the biased qualifier for now.
you quoted ken ham- straw man argument?
howbeit I think he is right,he just didn't go into the technicalities.
the technicalities and studies are out there though.
I don't have it but
noahs ark-a feasibility study.woodmorrappe.

guest?   we do know about other flood stories.it is to be expected that as time and geography create distance that the original story gets corrupted.
whatever species there are now derived from the original animals that entered the ark, and contained all the information in their genes needed to diversify as they spread out.

steve,s response was predictable, he never disappoints.
maybe the reason that he did not point me to the part where the favoured races trod the evolutionary pathway, is that Darwin did only write about natural selection,or at least that was all he had evidence for.

Subject: RE: BS: Is the Rapture Underway???
From: Bill D
Date: 13 Aug 13 - 03:19 PM

bill= my point is still being skirted around, not addressed.
no-one believed soft stuff could survive 68 million yrs, even under the most favourable conditions.
according to evolutionism they must have.

Who 'didn't believe' that? Some researchers have found some quite old DNA... but claims of many million year old DNA have NOT been authenticated. So far, we agree that 68,000,000 is unlikely.
Now... the issue is this: your assertion that "according to evolutionism" "soft stuff" must have survived. I don't know where you find such a claim. Did I miss some link you made? The real point is that evolution, as a science and as a theory does NOT depend on antediluvian DNA evidence. There are many, many other aspects of the entire complex set of studies and analysis OF those studies & evidence that supports and enhances the basis of evolutionary theory.


here... read thru this long article an see what the relevant issues are! (In my not-so-copious 'spare' time, I am re-reading it, and following some of the links to some of the technical articles. It is slow going to really understand it all.)

All I can say right now is that the possible, but unlikely, existence of very ancient DNA does nothing to disprove evolution! That is just a side discussion.

Subject: RE: BS: Is the Rapture Underway???
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 13 Aug 13 - 03:23 PM

no-one believed soft stuff could survive 68 million yrs, even under the most favourable conditions.

How do you know no-one "believed" it? And why don't you stop being a complete arse and, instead, tell us a little more about your research into this "soft stuff"? What soft stuff? How was it allegedly preserved and what are your scientific reasons for thinking that such preservation is impossible? let's face it, pete. You know nothing at all about this, do you? I'll give you this much, though: you must have bloody big balls for you to be able to cheerfully and proudly parade your ignorance so publicly and so frequently.

Subject: RE: BS: Is the Rapture Underway???
From: Don Firth
Date: 13 Aug 13 - 04:38 PM

There is a danger that Biblical literalists (fundamentalists) invariably fall into. They are convinced that they have the straight skinny, right out of the Bible. And anyone who does not believe that the Bible gives a literal history of the world are wallowing in ignorance.

The danger they invariably fall into is the sin of Pride. And Pride is one of the Seven Deadly Sins.

Beware!

Some of the most pompous, prideful people I have ever met are Biblical literalists—fundamentalists.

Don Firth

Subject: RE: BS: Is the Rapture Underway???
From: GUEST,Musket living and learning
Date: 13 Aug 13 - 06:03 PM

Greg. Much obliged for the link. I happily add Mr Cosby to my list.

Still a small list though and doesn't include any God botherers........

Subject: RE: BS: Is the Rapture Underway???
From: Mr Happy
Date: 14 Aug 13 - 08:30 AM

Actual proof humans & clockwork pterodactyls existed 1 million years bce! DIY [Do it Yahweh!]

Subject: RE: BS: Is the Rapture Underway???
From: GUEST,pete from seven stars link
Date: 15 Aug 13 - 12:13 AM

did I specify dna bill? .I probably mentioned it way back, but not this time, because that is not as firmly established as other soft tissue find in dinos.
when mary swittzer first made her discoveries she could not believe what she had found till multiple testings were done.
I take that as being in common with other MYO believers,could not believe such soft tissue would survive that long.
if steve can quote scientists that were on record pre 90.s that expected it ,he may have an argument.
but failing that- we have the situation of evidence of very much younger dinos being ignored because of evolutionary mindset.
so again I ask,- are not they now saying that soft tissue[eg blood residue] must be able to survive - because they [supposedly] know dinos lived millennia past?

Subject: RE: BS: Is the Rapture Underway???
From: GUEST,Musket evolving slowly
Date: 15 Aug 13 - 02:59 AM

Dinosaurs exist now. Or at least clever people can trace the line.

Our evolution going back to a form of star fish is also evident. Humans retain a physical resemblance to our star fish heritage and pete talks through his.

Subject: RE: BS: Is the Rapture Underway???
From: Mr Happy
Date: 15 Aug 13 - 07:37 AM

Resemblance?

Subject: RE: BS: Is the Rapture Underway???
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 15 Aug 13 - 09:22 AM

if steve can quote scientists that were on record pre 90.s that expected it ,he may have an argument.

Yeah, sure. We were all running round insisting that it be put on record that we were "expecting it." Silly man.

As a matter of fact, I was using maceration techniques to study soft plant tissue (not fossil wood, in other words, though I studied that as well) from the Carboniferous and Jurassic in the late 60s/early 70s at Imperial College. I still have my drawings somewhere. You can walk on the beach at low spring tide at Westward Ho! and pick up superbly-preserved acorn cups that are 8000 years old, pre-Ark! Nothing like a bit of clay and salt water away from oxygen! Soft tissue of insects, preserved in amber for tens of millions of years or more, has been known about for nearly two hundred years. You see, pete, you pick up snippets of stuff here and there that you don't understand and dishonestly set aside the stuff that doesn't seem to help your yarn. For example, you won't be impressed by any of this because you reject the perfectly good science of radio-isotope dating. Sadly for you, the only person fooled by your dishonesty is you.

Subject: RE: BS: Is the Rapture Underway???
From: Greg F.
Date: 15 Aug 13 - 10:57 AM

...the only person fooled by your dishonesty is you.

If only that were true - there's thousands (millions?) more out there just like pete.

Subject: RE: BS: Is the Rapture Underway???
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 15 Aug 13 - 12:59 PM

Sadly, you're right and I'm too optimistic. :-(

Subject: RE: BS: Is the Rapture Underway???
From: GUEST,pete from seven stars link
Date: 15 Aug 13 - 02:46 PM

musket = evasive answer.
have you read the report of mary swittzer's discovery steve?
she is an evolutionist herself, and could'nt believe it .she was not ,at first prepared to accept ,and i'm sure she was aware of the other preservations you mentioned.
and just stating something is 8,000 yr old ,don't prove it is.
and inferring that the interpretation of dating methods is always right ,don't prove it either.
my point remains - such soft tissue as found in dino bone was not expected - even in the most favourable conditions.

Subject: RE: BS: Is the Rapture Underway???
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 15 Aug 13 - 02:51 PM

So you know all about favourable conditions, do you? Go on, tell us what you know!

Subject: RE: BS: Is the Rapture Underway???
From: Bill D
Date: 15 Aug 13 - 03:04 PM

"we have the situation of evidence of very much younger dinos being ignored ...."

What evidence? There are, of course, 'some' creatures that science agrees have not changed much in a VERY long time, but that is explained if one looks for the relevant explanations.... and there are many creatures which have changed a lot- some rapidly.

Now... I found a link just this morning to this page, which is the first of many pages of the best 'simple' introduction to the claims and evidence and **history** of evolutionary theory I have seen. It goes & goes thru the steps, with fairly easy to read explanations and graphics.
Add to that this selection of articles by Stephen J.Gould and anyone can get a pretty good idea of the development of thinking about evolution. (Do NOT assume you already know the details and relevant ideas.)

Pete...I suggest you take some time browsing thru those sources...with as much as you can muster of an open mind that doesn't assume from the beginning that they are full of error and flaws.
I have read much of the Bible.. (I have 3-4 versions at home.)... and I have attended Methodist, Baptist, Catholic, Episcopalian, and Unitarian churches. I know the basics of theology, (studied it in college courses) both in history and in theory. In order to really discuss the differences we have, it is only fair that you have more information than just what your church and Creation.com offers.
(I really don't understand whether you have internet access anywhere other than Seven Stars...you mentioned, I believe, a laptop once. I know you have 'looked at' various links I've posted, but following the Berkley link above and reading some of the Gould articles is not a 15 minute exercise.)

So? What do you think?

Subject: RE: BS: Is the Rapture Underway???
From: Don Firth
Date: 15 Aug 13 - 03:15 PM

Well, yeah, some of the smaller dinosaurs are believed to have survived the meteor strike 68 million years ago. Alligators, crocodiles, monitor lizards, lizards of all kinds, snakes, reptiles in general. . . .

But about the nearest thing we have these days to a Tyrannosaurus Rex is a barnyard chicken.

Don Firth

Subject: RE: BS: Is the Rapture Underway???
From: GUEST,Musket evolving slowly
Date: 15 Aug 13 - 05:34 PM

600 suckers!