Subject: RE: Gaughan on the nature of 'Tradition' From: Richard Bridge Date: 08 Jun 00 - 03:42 PM Brendy, I fear I have to disagree with you. While I might not agree with everything Conrad says (in particular I tend to think that most organised Christian religion, and indeed from what I know of it, most organised non-CHristian religion is socially harmful and at times malicious) but he does say it in a rather interesting (if lengthy and oblique) way. I would rather the tradition did include songs of both Irish political orders. I would rather the tradition permitted those who wish to to sing religious songs. I would rather it permitted those who wish to to sing sensual or even obscene songs. I would permit the malicious "Old Alarm Clock" and indeed the celebration of dogfighting in "Champion he was a dandy". If a german visitor to our club is bold enough to sing the "Horst Wessel" song, good luck to him. I would even defend an English singer who wished to sing "Die Lindenbaum" in german despite its connotations. |
Subject: RE: Gaughan on the nature of 'Tradition' From: Brendy Date: 08 Jun 00 - 04:49 PM Richard. I do not have a problem as such with the songs of the Ascendancy in Ireland, and I recognise these as part of the tradition. Many's the time I have given a rousing rendition of 'Biddy McDowell', but as a general rule songs like these don't suit what I 'do'. This 'selectiveness' in what I perform has no bearing on the fact that they exist, and in my humble opinion, have a right to exist. This is really the crux of what Conrad's point is. He would have us sacrifice the 'wheat' for the 'chaff', and if that were to be done, the quality of the music would suffer. To suggest that I am not of the north of Ireland musical tradition; I come from the most troubled of it's towns, is ludicrous, and by association, to say that I don't sing a representative cross-section of the music is also inaccurate. I do not sing songs of hate. The songs of the Irish resistance to English occupation are not laced with triumphalist gingoistic coat-trailing, as Orange songs are, and in that way cannot be differentiated from the songs, say, of the anti-Nazi faction of the French during WW2. It is to the credit of people like Bobby Hanvey and others who have focused on the tradition within the tradition, that have helped to popularise songs of Unionism; had they not done so, that 'tradition' would have stayed where it always had been, marginalised, except to a greater extent. 'You can't beat a good song' they always say. And if 'Loyalist' songs can't cut the mustard any more, except during ritualistic shows of superiority, then less and less people will sing them. This is something You or I cannot influence. I have no more interest in being a reviver of the Orange song cycle as a philanthropic excercise, no more than I crave to highlight the plight of the Greater Spotted European Song Thrush, or whatever, and how life has been shitty to it in recent times. I don't define the music, I just play it. And north of Ireland traditional music is heavily Scottish influenced. Listen to a fiddle player from Corofin, and then to Paul Bradley, or someone. It's right there in the right arm. Listen to me accompanying Trad, and then to a guitarist from Cork. There is no mistake where we all come from. Take the north of Ireland accent, and regional dialects. And this includes the Irish language. He ain't debating, Richard. And he's lovin' every minute of it! B. |
Subject: RE: Gaughan on the nature of 'Tradition' From: Conrad Bladey (Peasant- Inactive) Date: 08 Jun 00 - 09:35 PM No sense arguing with someone who insists that his tradition as a monopoly on goodness. That must be wonderful- all that truth and singability in all of your songs! To have wheat you must have chaff so you must be eating it all mixed in if you dont see it! Sort of like the people who's farts dont smell! No incitement in republican songs? (do I have to cite the lines again...."off to Dublin in the green in the green....." a song of incitement if I ever heard one and it can be heard on any given weekend in Baltimore amongst others.....Where have you been! I think the prostitution is yours- to the republican line. Remember that your lot have their ritualistic shows of superiority each March 17 when they march war clubs in hand shouting the irish are coming etc.... Enjoy your music but it is a pitty that you can not see the goodness in the works of art of others just because you do not agree with a small aspect of the total multidimensional reality we call song and verse. One eyed people do quite well I hear! good luck to you. Conrad |
Subject: RE: Gaughan on the nature of 'Tradition' From: McGrath of Harlow Date: 09 Jun 00 - 05:26 AM Any song from any tradition that incites hatred against people because of their religion is better left unsung at a time like this especially. Leave it in the archives.
I don't know of any good songs we'd lose by that non-sectarian rule of thumb.
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Subject: RE: Gaughan on the nature of 'Tradition' From: GUEST,Barrygeo Date: 09 Jun 00 - 08:27 AM Conrad Your american experiences are irrelevant to me. There, Irish music has been hijacked by extremists and used for years to extract funding from the 'cry in your beer brigade.' The unfortunate result is that if you sing certain songs you are branded by people like yourself who dont understand the nature of the tradition. There are two major traditions on this island. We are trying to get to a stage where we can mutually respect the other. My musical tradition is one which does not include orange songs. I have no desire to learn any. Why should I? They are not relevent to me. I have no problem with the music. However I would not sit in a pub and listen to music which I found offensive. Nor would I expect anyone to listen to me if my songs caused them offense. For instance one of my favourite's is 'The bold Fenian Men' because my mother sang it to me as a lullaby. It is not a glorification of war but northern ptoestants might well find it offensive. I would sing it in my local where ir would be acceptable. I was once shunned by a group of Notherners when I sang 'The Town I loved so Well'. I thought it was a fine song but it turned out the listeners were from East Belfast and thought I was being offensive. The notion that songs like 'of to Dublin in the Green' would incite people to pick up guns and start killing people is a joke. You may have spent 'hours sitting at the feet of 'The Chieftains' etc but you have failed to learn the nature of IRish Music. By the way if you dislike 'off to Dublin in the Green so much why do you go back each weekend to hear it. Most people that I know that play or listen to Irish music are non-political. The reason they play well known ballads is to get a sing song going. Barry |
Subject: RE: Gaughan on the nature of 'Tradition' From: Conrad Bladey (Peasant- Inactive) Date: 09 Jun 00 - 02:56 PM 1. There is one tradition with several parts. The parts are more alike than different. 2. Orange historical ballads should not offend anyone. most people here as I have said dont even listen to the lyrics and if folk are offended by a simple historical song they are hyper sensitive and thats their problem you dont overcome it by avoiding the music. 3. If you would give up feeling offended by a small aspect of a song you could sit and enjoy them all -do it now it is easy. 4. Audiences which are intolerent need no music at all. Help them to understand. 5. I dont think songs make people kill people- to think so is a joke. But both sides have songs that pull the mind to violence that is what songs of solidarity are all about. They are however more song,music and verse than political message derived therefrom. 6. I think the Ploughboy is a wonderful song melody and verse going together well and quite pleasing. I listen to it because that I am not preoccupied with politics and appreciate the treasures of music both lyric and notation. Why should I get up from in front of a well pulled pint just because I dont agree with one small aspect of a song. Silly! 7.Most Irish musicians I know play anything the audience wants to hear even if it is political supports the IRA and terrorism. They can not say no to money. Too bad! We have way too many professional patronized musicians who sell out and in so doing also censor the tradition. More folks should just sit down and play the tunes that come into their head without worry as to the political content. I have a feeling that most folks on this thread so far do not know any orange/loyalsit/unionist songs! Try them out- learn one and see if anyone really cares! http://www.geocities.com/CapitolHill/5567/ooooo.html Conrad |
Subject: RE: Gaughan on the nature of 'Tradition' From: Brendy Date: 10 Jun 00 - 12:56 AM I know them all, Conrad. By heart! You haven't been assuming enough about us, old stick. And you haven't been doing it, far removed from any real hands-on experience.
And an Armchair Unionist.And a bigoted one at that!I see your other threads are doing quite well.B. |
Subject: RE: Gaughan on the nature of 'Tradition' From: GUEST,Chantywrassler (on another's PC) Date: 10 Jun 00 - 03:13 AM It should be patently obvious to everyone that no amount of argument, or persuasion will effect any change in Conrad's opinions. I believe him to be mistaken, as (evidently) do almost all the other contributors to this thread. And yet, this thread keeps on floating to the top of the pile. (And yes, I am aware that I have just floated it back up there again.) The songs people choose to sing in public reflect their upbringing as well as their own personal opinions and mature life experiences. I live in Glasgow. For historical reasons, Glasgow is about the only UK mainland city apart from Liverpool, which has been subject to echoes of the tensions that polarise the communities in Northern Ireland. For myself, and speaking for the other members of the folk club I most regularly attend, we regard ourselves as "mixed company". Apart from one or two people who I know well, I neither know nor care what "allegiances" people may feel. But, because we are mixed company, we refrain, all of us, from singing anything that could offend, or inflame, other members. There are no rules about this... no-one has ever said it .. no-one needs to say it... we gather together to sing for fun. I used to run a pub in Glasgow. And despite the image that is often portrayed of "a city divided", in fact, when in "mixed company", people are careful not to give offence, because, IN this city, offended parties often respond very vigorously indeed. So people get along. Another example. Apart from a few pubs which are blatantly partisan, in most pubs in Glasgow it is forbidden to wear scarves, or strips supporting your football (soccer) team. The sign usually says "No Colours!". - which has spawned a few arguments and gasps in visitors from the States ... it's an attempt to reduce possible causes of friction. The reason for this is that this city is shared. It is shared by people of many origins - Scots, Irish (same thing really), English, Jewish, Italian, Indian, Pakistanis, Chinese.... etc.. We share it. We are all entitled to live here without being offended or threatened. (And that extends to singing or being sung at.) In summary: I probably won't ever sing songs of either (Irish) tradition - not any that refer to conflict or division. But it's my choice. Other people make different choices. They are entitled to. Cheers. |
Subject: RE: Gaughan on the nature of 'Tradition' From: barrygeo Date: 13 Jun 00 - 08:36 AM Conrad You have exposed your complete ignorance of the traditions of the Island of Ireland despite having appointed yourself as 'an expert.' God help your students! 1.'There is only one tradition..' is rubbish. There are a multiplicity of traditions many of which are under threat. 2.People should not be offended by songs... Try listening to them when you are barracaded into your house with a mob marching up and down the street outside as will happen on many streets over the next couple of months. 3.This will be my final post here and I will say a prayer that you develop a wonderful interest in Greek music and stop meddling in our tradition. Barrygeo |
Subject: RE: Gaughan on the nature of 'Tradition' From: Conrad Bladey (Peasant- Inactive) Date: 13 Jun 00 - 02:52 PM what do you mean your tradition! you just noted that there were a multiplicity of traditions.... I would call them parts of the one larger but yes they do exist and you should remember that. You dont have to be barracaded in your house go out and enjoy the parade. (generally folks who barracade themselves in their houses do so because they dont want the RUC to find the petrol bombs with which they hope to welcome the parade!) To learn more about the tradition of the island that you seem to be intent on trashing go here-just clickit! Clickit here |
Subject: RE: Gaughan on the nature of 'Tradition' From: Frank McGrath Date: 13 Jun 00 - 07:51 PM I agree with George H completely. This thread has been AMBUSHED. He is an honorable, generous and fair-minded person. When he speaks out strongly it is only in the face of considerable affront. This thread and it's original subject, Gaughan on the nature of 'Tradition' is now defunct due to intolerance and selfishness. So what do we do? Do we try to ignore ignorance and continue without regard? Do we "take the bait" and degenerate each legitimate debate into an incoherent "slagging match"? I do not condone censorship but in the most extreme situations. I find however that most fools, ignoramus' and bigots eventually tire in the face of stubborn intelligence. Illigitimae non carborundum. Frank |
Subject: RE: Gaughan on the nature of 'Tradition' From: barrygeo Date: 14 Jun 00 - 09:13 AM Conrad - Goodbye At last you have revealed yourself. Anyone who disagrees with you is a petrol bomber!! QED Other readers can judge for themselves!!! Slan agus Beannacht BArrygeo |
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