Origins: Wild Rover

Subject: Origins: Wild Rover
From: Tradsinger
Date: 28 Dec 06 - 03:33 PM

Apologies if this has been answered before. I always understood that the version of the "Wild Rover" that the Clancy Brothers recorded in the 60s and which everyone knows, was learnt by the Clancies from Sam Larner. However, the Sam Larner tune appears to be quite different from the Clancies one. Where did the Clancies learn their tune from? I note that the song has rarely been collected from oral tradition in Ireland but often in England.

Tradsinger

Subject: RE: Origins: Wild Rover
From: Jeri
Date: 28 Dec 06 - 03:36 PM

I believe they got the song from Louis Killen, without a pause in the chorus, or the hand clapping.

Subject: RE: Origins: Wild Rover
From: Peace
Date: 28 Dec 06 - 03:43 PM

"Wild Rover No More" from

www.csufresno.edu/folklore/BalladIndex.html

Wild Rover No More

DESCRIPTION: The singer "has been a wild rover for many a year; I've spent all my money on whisky and beer." After years of carousing, he has gone broke and/or struck it rich; he vows that "never no more, It's never, never, never I'll play The wild rover no more."
AUTHOR: unknown
EARLIEST DATE: before 1829 (broadside, Bodleian Harding B 25(2055))
KEYWORDS: rambling poverty money travel hardtimes drink landlord floatingverses
FOUND IN: Britain(England(Lond,South),Scotland) Australia Ireland Canada(Mar) US(Ro,So)
REFERENCES (15 citations):
Meredith/Anderson, pp. 69-70, "Wild Rover" (a fragment); pp. 87-88, 127-128, "Wild Rover No More"; pp. 176-177, "I've Been a Wild Boy" (4 texts, 4 tunes)
Paterson/Fahey/Seal, pp. 296-297, "Wild Rover No More" (1 text)
Randolph 166, "The Horse-Thief" (1 text, 1 tune, which appears to be associated with this song although the text is so short that it might be part of a different piece)
High, pp. 35-36, "Ile B A Good Boy & Do So Nomore" (1 text)
Hubbard, #147, "The Wild Rover" (1 text, 1 tune)
Fahey-Eureka, pp. 196-197, "The Wild Boy" (1 text, 1 tune)
Spaeth-WeepMore, pp. 190-191, "Wild Rover" (1 text)
MacSeegTrav 113, "The Wild Rover" (1 text, 1 tune)
Kennedy 288, "Wild Rover" (1 text, 1 tune)
Wiltshire-WSRO Wt 476, "Wild Rover" (1 text)
GreigDuncan7 1480, GreigDuncan8 Addenda, "The Wild Rover" (7 texts, 5 tunes)
Manifold-PASB, pp. 146-147, "Wild Rover No More" (1 text, 1 tune)
Creighton-NovaScotia 65, "Wild Rover" (1 text, 1 tune)
Silber-FSWB, p. 57, "Wild Rover" (1 text)
DT, WLDROVER*
Roud #1173
RECORDINGS:
John Greenway, "Wild Rover No More" (on JGreenway01)
Sam Larner, "The Wild Rover" (on SLarner02)
BROADSIDES:
Bodleian, Harding B 25(2055), "Wild Rover" ("I have been a wild rover these dozen years"), T. Batchelar (London), 1817-1828; Harding B 16(307d), Johnson Ballads 613, Firth c.18(239), Firth c.18(244), Harding B 25(2055), "[The] Wild Rover"; Harding B 11(4217), "Wild Rover!"
CROSS-REFERENCES:
cf. "Johnny the Sailor (Green Beds)" [Laws K36] (plot)
cf. "Tambaroora Gold" (theme)
cf. "Moonshiner" (floating lyrics)
cf. "All My Trials" (lyrics)
cf. "Take Me Back to Tulsa" (lyrics)
cf. "The Strawberry Roan" [Laws B18] (tune)
cf. "Limbo" (theme)
cf. "I'll Be a Good Boy" (lyrics, theme)
ALTERNATE TITLES:
No, No, Never
NOTES: Meredith and Anderson claim that their fourth version, "I've Been a Wild Boy," has "no connection with the well-known 'Wild Rover No More.'" The same could be argued for Fahey's "The Wild Boy," since it lacks the "Wild Rover No More" chorus. Both songs also share an initial verse not found in the standard version:
My father died and left me his estate,
I married a lady whose fortune was great
And through keeping bad company I've spent all my store;
I've been a wild boy, but I'll be so no more.
There is something similar in High
When I was a young boy my fortune was not great,
I married me a rich widow with a very large estate,
With drinking and gambling I soon spent all her store,
But now I'll be a good bo and so no no more.
It will, however, be observed that the basic plot of all these songs is that of the "Wild Rover." The also share extensive floating lyrics. It may well be that this mixed "Wild Rover" is a fusion of earlier pieces. At this time, however, I am unable to distinguish the two.
Interestingly, although the song predates "The Strawberry Roan" by a century or so, Greenway's version is sung to a variant of that tune. - RBW
Kennedy and MacColl/Seeger both lump this song with "Moonshiner." I don't think so -- although they share a few lines -- but they do deserve a cross-reference.
No, I'm not making up the "All My Trials" and "Take Me Back to Tulsa" cross-references; Sam Larner included the "If living was a thing was money could buy/The rich would live and the poor would die" and "Little bee sucks the blossom, big bee gets the honey" floaters in his version. - PJS
John Greenway's "Wild Rover," which seems to be pretty well mixed, refers to the prisoner being sent to "Nugget." This is surely an error for "Newgate," the famous English prison. - RBW
Last updated in version 3.8
File: MA069

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Digital Tradition Lyrics:

WILD ROVER (NO NAY NEVER)

I've been a wild rover for many a year
And I spent all my money on whiskey and beer,
And now I'm returning with gold in great store
And I never will play the wild rover no more.

cho: And it's no, nay, never,
No nay never no more,
Will I play the wild rover
No never no more.

I went to an ale-house I used to frequent
And I told the landlady my money was spent.
I asked her for credit, she answered me "nay
Such a custom as yours I could have any day."

cho:

I took from my pocket ten sovereigns bright
And the landlady's eyes opened wide with delight.
She said "I have whiskey and wines of the best
And the words that I spoke sure were only in jest."

cho:

I'll go home to my parents, confess what I've done
And I'll ask them to pardon their prodigal son.
And if they caress (forgive) me as ofttimes before
Sure I never will play the wild rover no more.

cho:

@drink
filename[ WLDROVER
TUNE FILE: WLDROVER
CLICK TO PLAY
sung by Clancy Brothers
RG

Subject: RE: Origins: Wild Rover
From: GUEST,the twangman
Date: 28 Dec 06 - 03:58 PM

according to liam clancy, he learned the wild rover from luke kelly who learned it from an australian singer in newcastle.

Subject: RE: Origins: Wild Rover
From: Bat Goddess
Date: 28 Dec 06 - 06:22 PM

Louis Killen has said they learned it from him.

Linn

Subject: RE: Origins: Wild Rover
From: Tom Hamilton frae Saltcoats Scotland
Date: 29 Dec 06 - 04:45 AM

it came from England, moved to Australia and then Ireland

Subject: RE: Origins: Wild Rover
From: GUEST,Chris B (Born Again Scouser)
Date: 29 Dec 06 - 06:38 AM

Many years ago, I had a girlfriend who had a German friend living in Hamburg, which as you all know, is on the Baltic coast of Germany. Whenever she came over to visit, if she came along to a session she always asked me to sing the 'Wild Rover' as it had the same tune as a German folk song she had learnt as a child - which makes sense when you think of it. You can certainly imagine a German oompah accompaniment if you're that way inclined. And I suppose it's not impossible that the tune may have found it's way to East Anglia from Germany. Or vice versa.

Subject: RE: Origins: Wild Rover
From: Snuffy
Date: 29 Dec 06 - 07:58 PM

Hamburg, which as you all know, is on the Baltic coast of Germany.

Sorry Chris, but like many other ports (London, Philadelphia, etc) Hamburg is not on the coast, but many miles up a river. And the Elbe flows into the North Sea, not the Baltic.

But that does not make it any less likely that the tune did cross the sea in one direction or the other

Subject: RE: Origins: Wild Rover
From: MartinRyan
Date: 30 Dec 06 - 01:20 PM

Many years ago, I was sitting in a pub in Athlone, in the Irish midlands, when a group of (fairly drunk) German fishermen started singing quietly in a corner, in German. The locals thought it sounded familiar and were amazed to think that "Kevin Barry" could be sung in German! What it was, in fact, was "Rolling Home to Dear Old Hamburg"!

Regards

Subject: RE: Origins: Wild Rover
From: skarpi
Date: 30 Dec 06 - 03:39 PM

Hallo all , WILD ROVER is an English seasong and as far as
I can dig it s coming from the year 1750 or around that , but
if that is true or not I realy dont know , few years back there was
a thread here at mudcat about this maybe you can find it .

All the best Skarpi Iceland

Subject: RE: Origins: Wild Rover
From: GUEST,Jon
Date: 30 Dec 06 - 03:54 PM

See this thread

Subject: RE: Origins: Wild Rover
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 30 Dec 06 - 06:42 PM

you are all wrong. I am the wild rover mentioned in the fsmous song. sometimes I bite traditional folksingers, and thus it is with affection and a degree of warmth, they celebrate my mandible achievements.

My favourite ploy was to bite while they were in a stationary pose with the platercasters. That's how I got to bite Pete Seeger, Ewan MacColl and Martin Carthy one night in 1953. I am part of folksong history, and we have riotous parties where they show the teeth marks - unimportant people like yourselves are never invited and we usually sort out who is going to win BBC2 Folksinger of the year with a raffle, second prize is a bottle of sherry.

Subject: RE: Origins: Wild Rover
From: Tradsinger
Date: 31 Dec 06 - 05:05 AM

So there are various theories as to the origin of the version that the Clancies sang. It ISN'T the tune that Sam Larner sang - that is quite distinct. Did Louis Killen learn it from an Australian source - anecdotal evidence says he did, but anecdotal evidence also has Sharp collecting in Norfolk, which he didn't.

So far as I am concerned, the jury is still out on this one, unless someone can provide some more precise information.

Happy New Year to you all

Tradsinger

Subject: RE: Origins: Wild Rover
From: GUEST,The Knowledge
Date: 31 Dec 06 - 06:41 AM

It's an Irish song made famous by the Dubliners.

Subject: RE: Origins: Wild Rover
From: Wolfgang
Date: 31 Dec 06 - 10:29 AM

it had the same tune as a German folk song she had learnt as a child

Could be though I don't know it as the tune of any German folk song. However, a popular North German party song used this tune to completely different German lyrics ("An der Nordseekueste") which was written some twenty/thirty years ago. So if the lady was not too old, that could have been a recollection dating back to her youth.

Wolfgang

Subject: RE: Origins: Wild Rover
From: curmudgeon
Date: 31 Dec 06 - 10:43 AM

I learned this song back around 1962 from a recording by English singer John Runge, who sang it pure and simple and free of the clap(s). When I first met lou Killen some twenty-odd years back, he introduced the Wild Rover with the comment that he regretted having taught t it to some friends - tom Hall

Subject: RE: Origins: Wild Rover
From: GUEST
Date: 31 Dec 06 - 12:52 PM

It's quite likely that the Clancys learned it from Colm Keane of Glinsk, Connemara, not far from their home, or from Jimmy McKee of Armagh, not far from Tommy Makem's home.
Wherever they got it, they made a right pig's-ear of it.
There is a beautiful, totally different version, far more in keeping with the words, recorded by Jim McArdle from Mary Anne Carolan.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: Origins: Wild Rover
From: GUEST
Date: 31 Dec 06 - 11:08 PM

Clancies - Clancys!

Subject: RE: Origins: Wild Rover
From: Mr Yellow
Date: 01 Jan 07 - 06:02 AM

Surely the plural of Clancy is "And Tommy Makem"

d8^)

Subject: RE: Origins: Wild Rover
From: GUEST,Plastic Patrick
Date: 01 Jan 07 - 06:09 AM

It's an Irish song made famous by the Dubliners.
Nice when someone chances along and drops us the definitive dope, complete with provenance and references, isn't it? Cheers, The Knowledge; I'll stick it in me songbook alongside The Grey Funnel Line, Geordie, John Barleycorn, Santa Lucia, the Marseillaise and the Horst Wessel Lied as a fine example of those grand ould Irish songs.

Subject: RE: Origins: Wild Rover
From: GUEST,Shimrod
Date: 01 Jan 07 - 06:24 AM

Dear Plastic Patrick,

Surely all those traditional Irish songs were written by The Pogues - as were 'Dirty Old Town' and 'The Shoals of Herring'? I thought everyone knew that!

Subject: RE: Origins: Wild Rover
From: Fidjit
Date: 01 Jan 07 - 07:38 AM

Gardiner Hp.346 Henry Lee, Whitchrch, Hants, England. May 1906

Verses 3 and 4 based on a version noted in Wiltshire by Alfred Williams. (see, "Songs from the Upper Thames" by Alfred Williams.

Although well-known from the version collected from the late Sam Larner of Winterton, Norfolk.

Further comment by Frank Parslow, editor of E.F.D.S Publication "The Constant Lovers"

- I thought a distinctive way of singing the song might be welcome -

And,

- In view of the sentiments expressed in the song I have often wondered where it was sung - not in pubs anyway!-

Chas

Happy New year to one and all

Subject: RE: Origins: Wiled Reiver's New Mower
From: Severn
Date: 01 Jan 07 - 08:08 AM

And then, there's the Animal Control version:

"...And I never will SPAY the wild rover no more"

(and something about "the sting o'the dingo's thing-o")

Subject: RE: Origins: Wild Rover
From: GUEST,the twangman
Date: 01 Jan 07 - 05:55 PM

the original question on this thread was where did the clancys learn the wild rover. at a recent concert in armagh, liam clancy stated he learned it from luke kelly in the early 60's. if you listen to the clancys first recording of the song (recorded live in ireland), liam expresses surprise at the fact that the audience already knew it. when liam returned to america after learning the wild rover from a relatively unknown luke kelly, the wild rover was a relatively unknown song in ireland. but in the space of a few short months it became hugely populor from the singing of luke kelly and the dubliners, it was the dubliners first single and it was a chart hit in ireland (although it is clearly not an irish song).

Subject: RE: Origins: Wild Rover
From: Tradsinger
Date: 01 Jan 07 - 06:10 PM

That sounds more plausible. Perhaps those who claim that the Clancys learnt it from Louis Killen got the name mixed up with Luke Kelly. They are both L K, after all! So this raises the possibility that it IS in fact an Irish version, not an English one. But who was the mysterious Australian in Newcastle???

Subject: RE: Origins: Wild Rover
From: Peace
Date: 01 Jan 07 - 06:12 PM

"Subject: RE: Origins: Wild Rover
From: GUEST,The Knowledge - PM
Date: 31 Dec 06 - 06:41 AM

It's an Irish song made famous by the Dubliners."

Just because it's a good song doesn't make it Irish ipso facto. However, chances are . . . .

Subject: RE: Origins: Wild Rover
From: MartinRyan
Date: 01 Jan 07 - 07:43 PM

Only evidence of a pre Dubliners/Clancies Irish connection is Mrs. Carolan's vesion - which was not (and still isn't) well known.

Regards

Subject: RE: Origins: Wild Rover
From: GUEST
Date: 02 Jan 07 - 03:56 AM

The Roud index gives only 3 Irish versions, Jimmy McKee, Armagh (1952) and Colme Keane, Galway (1954).
It was most popular in England and the early broadside references are all English.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: Origins: Wild Rover
From: MartinRyan
Date: 02 Jan 07 - 07:38 PM

Jim

Interesting - wonder how Mrs. Carolan's version got left out?

Regards

Subject: RE: Origins: Wild Rover
From: Malcolm Douglas
Date: 02 Jan 07 - 07:48 PM

It wasn't "left out"; it just hasn't been added yet. The Index is enormous, and one man can only do so much. It will appear in due course, I have no doubt.

Subject: RE: Origins: Wild Rover
From: MartinRyan
Date: 02 Jan 07 - 08:28 PM

Malcolm

Point taken - but I still would have expected it to have appeared!

Regards
p.s. I have great respect for what Roud has done, needless to say.

Subject: RE: Origins: Wild Rover
From: VIN
Date: 03 Jan 07 - 12:30 PM

I reckon my favourite singer of Wild Rover was Alex Campbell, still have an live LP wiht im doin it! Even better to see/hear in person - RIP Alex, yeh-oh-yeh!

Subject: RE: Origins: Wild Rover
From: GUEST
Date: 03 Jan 07 - 02:55 PM

I don't think Mrs Carolan's version is in general circulation. We were given a tape of her and her brother Pat Usher singing and playing by the collector.
Unfortunately, there is very little of this magnificent singer available
Jim Carroll
PS I said 3 Irish versions- the other was from Kerry Traveller, Mikeen Mccarthy who probably picked up the Clancy version.

Subject: RE: Origins: Wild Rover
From: Tom Hamilton frae Saltcoats Scotland
Date: 03 Jan 07 - 02:56 PM

The Corries/the spinners(liverpool)/the dubliners also sing it

Subject: RE: Origins: Wild Rover
From: Tootler
Date: 02 Jan 09 - 03:59 PM

This past summer at Folkworks Summer School, Claire Mann taught us a version of the Wild Rover which used a different tune to the one we all came to know and love.

It was in a minor mode and gave the song a whole different feel; more contemplative and less "in your face". Here is an mp3 of the tune. Was this the tune or something like the tune that Jim Carroll heard?

The verses were the same as in the recordings mentioned above but the chorus was different;

Wild roving I'll give over,
Wild roving I'll give o'er
And I'll ne'er be called the Wild Rover no more.

I also had a look at the Broadsides on the Bodleian Library website. They were interesting. There seemed to be two main variants of the song but neither was really that different from what we know now.

I think the two tunes provide an interesting example of how a tune can affect the "feel" of a song.

Subject: RE: Origins: Wild Rover
From: Tradsinger
Date: 02 Jan 09 - 04:13 PM

My original question remains unanswered. There must be a traditional source for this tune somewhere but where? The answer is out there, and I don't want people just to go around the Sam Larner/Luke Kelly/Louis Killen route again. I want the truth!

Tradsinger

Subject: RE: Origins: Wild Rover
From: Steve Gardham
Date: 02 Jan 09 - 04:22 PM

The general theme and some of the stanzas are very common on broadsides going back at least to the 17th century, usually with 'goodfellow' in the title. Versions are common all over England in oral tradition, quite different to the Irish version. Despite having collected plenty of Yorkshire versions, I still sing the Irish version at ceilidhs and have done since the 60s simply because everyone immediately recognizes it and can join in.

Subject: RE: Origins: Wild Rover
From: GUEST,TJ in San Diego
Date: 02 Jan 09 - 04:25 PM

Weelittledrummer:

So YOURS are the bite marks captured in plaster and on display at the Smithsonian in the folk archives?? They were, allegedly, donated by an anonymous traditional performer-victim who had the presence of mind to place a flesh colored wax barrier over the inflicted body part in anticipation of just such an attack! The S.P.A.T.S (Society for the Protection of All Traditional Singers)investigators have been seeking to uncover the identity of the perpetrator for many years.

Congratulations on the continuing success of your tender mandibular ministrations. Whew!

Subject: RE: Origins: Wild Rover
From: Tradsinger
Date: 02 Jan 09 - 05:17 PM

Steve,

Much as I admire your knowledge and scholarship, your reply still doesn't address the question. I know there are lots of versions on broadsides etc and that lots of versions have been collected, mainly in England, but none, so far as I know, have the well-known tune that we have come to love and loathe. The question is - what is the real source of the Clancy Brothers/Dubliners' tune? Or is it a mystery? My motive in asking is that the Irish claim it is Irish and the English claim it is English. Can someone enlighten me? Does Malcolm Douglas know? Does anyone know?

Tradsinger

Subject: RE: Origins: Wild Rover
From: The Sandman
Date: 02 Jan 09 - 06:00 PM

I believe it is Scottish.

Subject: RE: Origins: Wild Rover
From: The Sandman
Date: 02 Jan 09 - 06:03 PM

From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
Jump to: navigation, search

The Wild Rover (Roud 1173) is a popular folk song whose origins are contested.

According to Professor T. M. Devine in his book The Scottish Nation 1700 - 2000 (Penguin, 2001) the song was written as a temperance song. [1] This would place it no earlier than 1829. [2]. The song is found printed in a book, The American Songster, printed in the USA by W.A. Leary in 1845, and spread from Scotland to America from the Temperance movement. There is another USA printed version in the "Forget-Me-Not Songster" (c 1850), published by Locke. An alternative history of the song is suggested by the fact that a collection of ballads, dated between 1813 and 1838, is held in the Bodleian Library. The printer, Catnach, was based in "7 Dials", London. The Bodleian bundle contains "The Wild Rover" [3]. The Greig-Duncan collection contains no less than six versions of the song. It was compiled by Gavin Greig 1848–1917.

Subject: RE: Origins: Wild Rover
From: Jack Campin
Date: 02 Jan 09 - 06:04 PM

Have you tried the National Tune Index? (On microfiche in large reference libraries - not easy to use, but if there's a 17th or 18th century version it'll be listed).

Subject: RE: Origins: Wild Rover
From: Steve Gardham
Date: 02 Jan 09 - 06:27 PM

The Clancy Brothers tune is really not that far removed from some of the tunes sung in England. It may just have been altered to give it more of a swing and a solid melody. The English tunes I've heard tend to be less rhythmical and slower to match the sentiments expressed. The way it is sung nowadays it appears more like a rollicking pro-drinking song when, as somebody has already said, it is really a temperance song (but much older than 1829).

Subject: RE: Origins: Wild Rover
From: Tootler
Date: 02 Jan 09 - 06:41 PM

From a search for "wild rover" on the Bodleian Library's online collection:

Search term is in ballad no. 1 of the sheet
Printer:         Jennings, J. (London)
Date:         between 1790 and 1840
        Imprint: Printed and sold by J. Jennings, No. 15, Water Lane, Fleet- street
Illus. Ballads on sheet: 1

Search term is in ballad no. 2 of the sheet
Printer:         Catnach, J. (London)
Date:         between 1813 and 1838
        Imprint: J. Catnach, Printer, 2, Monmouth-Court, 7 Dials
Illus. Ballads on sheet: 2

Search term is in ballad no. 1 of the sheet
Printer:         Batchelar, T. (London)
Date:         between 1817 and 1828
        Imprint: Printed and sold by T. Batchelar, 115, Long Alley, Moorfields, London
Illus. Ballads on sheet: 1

Obviously the dating is not precise, but it suggests a possible date as early as 1790 and as late as 1840

To answer the question about a traditional version, the broadsides simply indicate the song existed, but do not tell us anything about its existence in the oral tradition. The search on the Bodleian gave eight relevant hits in total which suggests that the song was likely quite well known in the early part of the nineteenth century, though that is speculation on my part.

None of the broadsides give any clue as to the tune that was used, but it has been pointed out to me elsewhere that the relation between song and tune was more flexible in the past than it tends to be nowadays.

Subject: RE: Origins: Wild Rover
From: Brian Peters
Date: 22 Jun 10 - 02:12 PM

I'm reviving this thread (one of many 'Wild Rover' threads, of course), because I just stumbled on something interesting. A year or so ago, Tradsinger wrote:

"I know there are lots of versions on broadsides etc and that lots of versions have been collected, mainly in England, but none, so far as I know, have the well-known tune that we have come to love and loathe. The question is - what is the real source of the Clancy Brothers/Dubliners' tune? Or is it a mystery?"

I was just browsing the Take 6 archive, when I noticed that the Francis Collinson collection contains several manuscript items relating to this title. There is a text collected from a Charlie Moore in 1922, although the tune given for it doesn't seem to match. Under COL/6/13, however, there is a different version, unattributed, with a tune quite similar to the Clancy singalong, a 'No Nay Never' chorus, and a text that is similar, but with some interesting differences, e.g:

I'll go home to my father, and get me a wife
And never return to this prodigal life
I'll go home to my mother and there I'll remain
And I ne'er shall be called the wild rover again
[Is this the origin of the 'Prodigal Son' verse?]

The alehouse is said to be in 'Halifax Port' (what, Nova Scotia?). However, the Collinson text seems much more like the version Tradsinger is after than the Sam Larner one or any of the others I know. The question is, where did Collinson get it? Anybody know anything about his collection?

If you want to check it for yourself, go to Take 6 , search 'Wild Rover' in the main box, and scroll down for the Collinson version (some of the other documents appear to be the same tune, transcribed in different keys).

Subject: RE: Origins: Wild Rover
From: Jack Campin
Date: 22 Jun 10 - 02:31 PM

The Take6 site doesn't work properly with my browser (search does nothing; seems to deliberately test for the browser at the other end and refuses to provide any data to one it doesn't recognize) - so I can't see the MS you're talking about, but their biography of Collinson says the MSS in question are at the VWML, so I presume anybody in London could answer Brian's question.

If somebody can give me a direct URL to MSS COL/6/13 I'd appreciate it.

(I have seen Collinson's papers in the NLS, and have a couple of books that he once owned).

Subject: RE: Origins: Wild Rover
From: Brian Peters
Date: 22 Jun 10 - 03:02 PM

"If somebody can give me a direct URL to MSS COL/6/13 I'd appreciate it."

Unfortunately the site doesn't allow copying direct urls for some reason, and I haven't time right now to copy the image and make it available another way. Anyone else?

Subject: RE: Origins: Wild Rover
From: Jack Campin
Date: 22 Jun 10 - 03:05 PM

Direct URLs (after logging in on a different machine) seem to be

http://library.efdss.org/archives/images/collinson/COL-01-718.gif
http://library.efdss.org/archives/images/collinson/COL-01-719.gif
http://library.efdss.org/archives/images/collinson/COL-01-720.gif

I'll take a look at those in a bit.

The web designer who fucked up the EFDSS site like that appears to be one Richard Butterworth. Thanks a bundle, whoever you are.

Subject: RE: Origins: Wild Rover
From: Brian Peters
Date: 22 Jun 10 - 03:31 PM

That's the one, Jack.

Subject: RE: Origins: Wild Rover
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 26 May 15 - 07:26 AM

Refresh:

Bearing in mind the very ambivalent Wikipedia entry, can we get any further in nailing down the origins of the song - or even who first collected it, where and when?

Subject: RE: Origins: Wild Rover
From: Jack Campin
Date: 26 May 15 - 07:29 AM

It was written by T. Lanfiere in the 1680s and published as a broadside. I doubt he based it on any earlier original.

Subject: RE: Origins: Wild Rover
From: Brian Peters
Date: 26 May 15 - 08:58 AM

I published a paper on the subject in the Folk Music Journal last year. I'll post the essentials here, when I've got time off touring with Jeff Davis.

Subject: RE: Origins: Wild Rover
From: GUEST,Hilary
Date: 26 May 15 - 03:14 PM

It may be related to "The Alewives Invitation." That broadside contains a couplet "It's known a good fellow I've been many a year/
And much have I spent in wine and strong beer" and has the theme of the landlady rejected a man when she finds out he has no money. It also warns young men not to spend all their money drinking. "The Alewives Invitation" is supposed to be set to "Digby's Farewell" and has the same meter as the Wild Rover (not that that means a whole lot.) http://abcnotation.com/searchTunes?q=digby%27s+farewell&f=c&o=a&s=0

Subject: RE: Origins: Wild Rover
From: Brian Peters
Date: 26 May 15 - 03:26 PM

There are indeed similarities to 'Alewife' (and other similar broadsides of the period), but Lanfiere's 'Good Fellow's Resolution' is the closest match. You can trace the process of evolution into something resembling the song we all know through successive broadsides over 100+ yuears. The Dubliners' hit owes much to Australian and Canadian versions as well.

Subject: RE: Origins: Wild Rover
From: Jack Campin
Date: 26 May 15 - 03:30 PM

OK, when, who and where for "The Alewives Invitation"?

Subject: RE: Origins: Wild Rover
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 26 May 15 - 05:19 PM

YES - I want to know more!

Subject: RE: Origins: Wild Rover
From: Steve Gardham
Date: 26 May 15 - 06:28 PM

Copies of 'The Alewives Invitation' are available on the English Ballads website at Santa Barbara, University of California. I think they are all copies of the same sheet printed by Brooksby. Roxburghe dates it at c1672 but I think it's probably a little later. It is part of a whole set of ballads that utilise similar phrases around that time. However, the modern song is unmistakably directly descended from The Good fellow's Resolution also in Roxburghe c1680 and also on the same site. The earliest related piece I can find is by John Wade 'A Caveat for Young Men' c1666-78 again in Roxburghe. There are all sorts of offshoots from these ballads printed in the next 2 centuries, one of them being 'The Green Bed'.

Subject: RE: Origins: Wild Rover
From: Steve Gardham
Date: 26 May 15 - 06:29 PM

That last post took about 75 goes to get posted!!!!

Subject: RE: Origins: Wild Rover
From: GUEST,jim bainbridge
Date: 27 May 15 - 03:19 PM

Brian Peters' interesting article in 'Folk Music Journal' Vol 10 No 5 was pointed out to me by Johnny Handle and covers this subject very well, academically at least. I often ribbed Louis Killen in his later years about being responsible for teaching the Clancys this song, which became the scourge of many a good singing session.

He never admitted teaching it to anyone, but said that he'd learned it from a radio show in the forties- Brian's article confirms this, and DO NOTE that his article mentions other songs from the same programme- 'Dark-Eyed Sailor' 'Foggy Dew' Pleasant & Delightful' and 'Banks of the Sweet Primroses'. ALL of these were firmly in Louis Killen's repertoire in the mid 60s when I first heard him, so that to me strongly confirms the accuracy of Brian's article. Do READ it before issuing rash declarations as to its origin.

I have little doubt that Luke Kelly picked it up from Louis on his visits to the Newcastle folk club around 1960, when he 'collected' many a good song, and also realised that he knew folk songs from his own background and used all of these songs later as Dubliners material!

By the way, I have never understood how the old Geordie song 'Cushie Butterfield' (yes I know its air is a London music hall tune) ever was a big hit in the Irish pop charts about 40 years ago via Paddy Reilly/Brendan Shine?? - maybe this was via the Louis Killen/Luke Kelly connection as well, although how this dialect song was ever more than gibberish to the Irish ear still mystifies me- any views?

Anyway, to sing the 'standard' version of the song may be unwelcome these days in 'traditional' circles but if you're in a noisy non-folkie pub anywhere, just sing that song & you'll be able to sing whatever you like for the rest of the night....

Subject: RE: Origins: Wild Rover
From: Les in Chorlton
Date: 28 May 15 - 04:54 AM

I've sung the Wild Rover for many's the year
I've sung it so often, I'm sick up to here
But now I have taken vows twenty or more
I never will sing the Wild Rover no more ..............

Although I certainly will - after pointing out that it is not an Irish drinking song but an English temperance song.

Cheers

Subject: RE: Origins: Wild Rover
From: Brian Peters
Date: 28 May 15 - 05:55 AM

Yes indeed, Jim: one of the points I was trying to make in my article (and I will post a precis here soon, I promise) was that the Dubliner / Clancy 'WR', although a folk revival concoction, has been handed back to popular culture. In fact it's more of a true 'folk song' now than its 'more authentic' predecessors. So, although I will carry on singing my lovely English version from Hampshire, I'm not about to rubbish the version that many ordinary pub-goers and people at large enjoy singing along to.

Subject: RE: Origins: Wild Rover
From: Brian Peters
Date: 14 Jun 15 - 12:59 PM

OK, I've finally got round to boiling my FMJ article down to the essential points. Here goes:

1.  The ultimate source of TWR is almost certainly be Thomas Lanfiere's 'The Goodfellow's Resolution' from the late 17th century, one of a number of moralistic broadsides of the period describing the wayward behaviour and subsequent regrets of 'Bad Husbands' and the treachery of alewives (landladies). TGR is the only one of the 'Bad Husband' ballads to feature the deception of the landlady regarding the customer's financial means. It's been discussed here before - see here.

2.  Lanfiere's 13-verse text was edited and condensed, appearing in late 18th / early 19th chapbooks and broadsides, with the 'Bad Husband' being converted to a 'Wild Rover' along the way. Different stages in the evolution are preserved in these print versions, which had found their way into English oral tradition (sung to a different tune from the familiar one) by the early 19th century, when a harmonized version crops up in Thomas Hardy's grandfather's songbook. The song was also reproduced in American songsters, mid-19th C, and was extremely popular in Australia – where three different strains and a Country & Western rewrite all did the rounds.

3.  At some point the 'No, Nay, Never' chorus replaced the earlier 'Wild Rover, Wild Rover' form - I located (thanks, Jack Campin) only one, very late, broadside copy from Scotland including the NNN refrain, but it was present in versions collected orally in Scotland by the early 20th century which were distinctly different from the Hardy copy.

4.  The 'prodigal son' verse appears probably late 19th century and, together with 'No, Nay, Never', sweeps the board, the modified song appearing in oral versions from Scotland, England and Ireland through the early-mid 20th C.  It was popular in Yorkshire pub sings in the early 1960s, before the Dubliners or Clancys released their versions. The tune seems to arrive at something like the familiar one by this point, although one Irish variant has a lovely modal tune completely unlike the regular one.

5.  Louis Killen hears a version on BBC radio in the 1940s, remembers it later, and adds it to his repertoire, padded out with source singer Sam Larner's words (this information comes from responses given by Louisa Jo Killen in the year before her death).  The BBC version seems to have come from Nova Scotia (the alehouse is in 'Halifax Port') and has the extended chorus – dwelling for three beats each on 'No', 'Nay' and 'Never', followed by a gap - that we're now familiar with (it doesn't occur in any other oral version). It was apparently 'collected' by BBC producer Jack Dillon on board a ship bound for Russia (where he was heading to fight in the civil war) in 1919. The Vaughan Williams Library has a 78rpm record of the song as Killen heard it, sung by a BBC baritone with small orchestra and chorus - amazing!

6.  Luke Kelly learns the song from Killen while staying in Newcastle in the early 1960s, but when he starts performing it, he uses a set of words from Australia instead of the Killen-Larner text (the 'returning with gold in great store' line originated in Australia).  The Aussie version was recorded in the 50s by Burl Ives, would have been easily accessible to Kelly, and is the most probable though not the only possible source (the Clancy Brothers actually say that TWR is an Australian song in an early performance for a Pete Seeger TV show that you can find on Youtube).

So there you go.

Subject: RE: Origins: Wild Rover
From: GUEST,Learaí na Láibe
Date: 04 Nov 18 - 02:26 AM

Here's Sam Larner's lovely version.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LArro0UqEbE

Subject: RE: Origins: Wild Rover
From: JHW
Date: 04 Nov 18 - 06:30 AM

I mention this only as it does't seem to have had a mention before. (and I chanced to sing it 2 nights ago)
From EFDSS book THE LIFE OF A MAN, Songs from the Home Counties Coll. by Ken Stubbs.
Page 84. Sung by George Townshend, Lewes, 1961
Different melody (I can't copy music) and very different but readily joined in chorus:
'Wi-ild rover, wild ro-o-ver, wi-ild rover no-o mo-ore,
And I never, never sha-all play the wild rover no more.'
(And no prodigal son verse)