BS: Palestinian 'facts'

Subject: RE: BS: Palestinian 'facts'
From: Teribus
Date: 02 Jun 08 - 07:26 AM

BB, just for Guest Zacks edification:

"Audie Leon Murphy, son of poor Texas sharecroppers, rose to national fame as the most decorated U.S. combat soldier of World War II. Among his 33 awards and decorations was the Medal of Honor, the highest military award for bravery that can be given to any individual in the United States of America, for "conspicuous gallantry and intrepidity at the risk of his life above and beyond the call of duty."

He also received every decoration for valor that his country had to offer, some of them more than once, including 5 decorations by France and Belgium. Credited with either killing over 240 of the enemy while wounding and capturing many others, he became a legend within the 3rd Infantry Division.

Beginning his service as an Army Private, Audie quickly rose to the enlisted rank of Staff Sergeant, was given a "battle field" commission as 2nd Lieutenant, was wounded three times, fought in 9 major campaigns across the European Theater, and survived the war.

During Murphy's 3 years active service as a combat soldier in World War II, Audie became one of the best fighting combat soldiers of this or any other century. What Audie accomplished during this period is most significant and probably will never be repeated by another soldier, given today's high-tech type of warfare. The U.S. Army has always declared that there will never be another Audie Murphy."

A truly remarkable man, if Guest Zack wants to liken me to Audie Murphy in an attempt to disparage me, then more fool him, I personally take the comparison for what it is - One hell of a compliment.

Subject: RE: BS: Palestinian 'facts'
From: CarolC
Date: 02 Jun 08 - 03:53 PM

Nobody had any right to expect the Palestinians to agree to partition, and nobody had any right to withhold the right of self determination from the people who were indigenous to the area (the ones who are now calling themselves the Palestinians), or to displace them from their homes and villages and the land of their origin.

Subject: RE: BS: Palestinian 'facts'
From: Peace
Date: 02 Jun 08 - 03:59 PM

"The Jews have NO RIGHT TO BE THERE."

Guest Buttocks has spoken. SO, everyone else shut up.

Subject: RE: BS: Palestinian 'facts'
From: Teribus
Date: 02 Jun 08 - 07:26 PM

"Nobody had any right to expect the Palestinians to agree to partition, and nobody had any right to withhold the right of self determination from the people who were indigenous to the area (the ones who are now calling themselves the Palestinians), or to displace them from their homes and villages and the land of their origin." - CarolC

Why? They, the "Palestinian" Arabs had conclusively proved to both the British (Peel Commission) and to the UN that there could be no way on earth that Arab and Israeli could live in harmony in one state (Palestine). A two state solution was offered and refused first in 1937 and again in 1947. The boundaries of the two state solution that they are fighting about now are more or less the same as were offered by the UN in 1947. Can anybody answer the fairly obvious question - If it is alright now, why wasn't it alright then? - It would have saved a great deal of suffering on both sides.

Oh yes "the people who were indigenous to the area" - I take it then CarolC that you haven't checked up on who exactly has the "right of return" - You will find that it is far more imaginative and all-encompassing than those who were indigenous to the area.

Now when it comes to you discussing those, "displaced from their homes and villages and the land of their origin" - God I can almost hear the violins - Can you refer me to any post of yours where you have pressed for the "right of return" or compensation to the 820,000 Jews and their descendants expelled from Arab lands. All of a sudden it doesn't seem so urgent a case for CarolC and her likes. As I stated in another thread - Bigotted, Biased and Hypocritical.

Subject: RE: BS: Palestinian 'facts'
From: GUEST,Arnie
Date: 02 Jun 08 - 10:32 PM

The posts about the Gaza closure to weaken Hamas backfiring is exactly what the U.S. State dept. is saying right now to Israel. Also Olmert was talking tough today, and Carole may be right about the situation perhaps getting worse soon - militarily speaking in Gaza.

Talking tough today again the the president of Iran who said in a speech : "criminal and terrorist Zionist regime" with a track record of 60 years of plundering, aggression and crimes ... has reached the end ... and will soon disappear from the geographical" charts.

There is a lot of dangerous and confrontation talk going on today. Scary!

My opinion - It's so complicated a situation - but I believe the Palestinian State issue should have been dealt with seriously 30 years ago. The Israeli government has let it fester too long and we now have a new young generation of Palestinians thave has grown up completely in despair and they know nothing but misery and confrontation. What a mess!

Here is today's article:
Israel's continued blockade of the Gaza Strip is misguided and has helped rather than harmed Hamas, a senior State Department official told The Jerusalem Post on Monday.

Olmert meets with Abbas in Jerusalem regarding peace negotiations and ceasefire in Gaza

The State Department is likely to convey its unhappiness regarding Israel's Gaza policy to Prime Minister Ehud Olmert when he arrives in Washington before dawn on Tuesday. His three-day visit will include a meeting with US President George W. Bush and a keynote address to the annual AIPAC policy conference.

"What we're telling the Israelis is that the policy that was adopted after the summer [of June 2007] wasn't working, of really closing the borders," said a senior State Department official.

On Monday night, Olmert said that the "hour of decision" was approaching regarding continued Palestinian rocket fire from the Gaza Strip, pledging that the attacks, which have continued unabated for seven years, will be stopped "one way or another."
RELATED

"I said in the past that I prefer the path of dialogue, but as long as all the steps we take do not lead to the hoped-for calm, we will be forced to turn to the sword," Olmert said at the official Jerusalem Day ceremony at Ammunition Hill, marking 41 years since the reunification of the capital. "We will brandish it in a heavy, sharp and painful manner."

"I say to the residents of Sderot and the Gaza envelope: My heart and thoughts are with you," he added. "You pay the ongoing price which effects your way of life, primarily that of your children. The hour of decision is approaching, after which you too will have the longed-for quiet. The threat towards you will also be removed, one way or another."

The beleaguered premier, who is facing growing calls for his ouster in the wake of the latest in a series of corruption scandals, made the remarks just hours before he left for Washington in what could be his last visit to the US capital as prime minister, and after months of on-again, off-again negotiations for an Egyptian-mediated truce with Hamas have failed to bear fruit.

Olmert arrives in Washington in the midst of a stiff diplomatic agenda that includes peace talks with Syria and a 2008 deadline to come to a final status agreement with the Palestinians. But he leaves Israel under threat of a possible indictment for money laundering that has shaken his coalition and left politicians scrambling to work toward new elections.

The senior State Department official said that Olmert's political situation was a "challenge" but that the US remains "confident that there's broad support within Israeli society for a two-state solution."

The United States, he said, was still looking for an agreement by the end of Bush's term.

The peace process, he said, "is not just the work of one person."

"We remain positive about it, despite all the obstacles and challenges," he said, indicating there are other challenges, not just Olmert's political prospects.

Israeli media on Monday speculated that this could be Olmert's last trip, with Channel 1 adding in that he had thought of canceling it.

But Olmert's spokesman Mark Regev refused to comment on the matter, stating only, "We have a lot of work on the agenda that needs to be done and we want to do that work."

Part of that work is likely to be new look at Israel's continued closure of the Gaza borders to all but humanitarian aid and basic supplies. Hamas's violent take over of the Gaza Strip in June 2007 suspended all border agreements on movement and access.

Those agreements have been hard to implement in light of Hamas's refusal to recognize Israel and given that there has been no agreed-upon body to replace Fatah, which until last summer had controlled the border crossings.

Israel has held the opinion that a blockade of Gaza would also weaken Hamas's hold on the strip.

But a senior State Department official told the Post that policy has appeared to have backfired. Palestinian rocket attacks against southern Israel have continued and Hamas is gaining strength due to popular disaffection and Hamas can still get the resources it needs.

"Within Gaza, Hamas seems the least effected by the closure," he said.

A new approach must be found that "that wouldn't benefit Hamas... but to find that new approach is very difficult because Hamas is in control."

Among the ideas US officials will kick around with Israel is a new look at the possibility of monitors and the defunct agreement on movement and access.

"You could envision Rafah being open under an agreement on movement and access with EU monitors. But all of that requires in some ways Hamas's acquiescence," he said.

He also called the idea of having some sort of international force between Israel and Gaza a "creative idea."

Regev said he imagined that Gaza would be on the agenda with the US, as well as the Egyptian brokered talks on a cease fire.

The State Department official told the Post that on the issue of a cease-fire the US would like to see a new approach. He did not elaborate.

"We don't want Israel to do anything that would make Israel feel like it put itself at jeopardy or risk," the official said.

Egypt, he said, has been playing a "constructive role," adding that Egypt has been making "more of an effort" when it comes to smuggling.

Talking tough today again the the president of Iran who said in a speech : "criminal and terrorist Zionist regime" with a track record of 60 years of plundering, aggression and crimes ... has reached the end ... and will soon disappear from the geographical" charts.

There is a lot of dangerous and confrontation talk going on today.

Subject: RE: BS: Palestinian 'facts'
From: GUEST,Zach
Date: 02 Jun 08 - 11:51 PM

Teribus where are you getting your muddled information from ? No sources, no proof and total trash.

Man let this one go please. These two ladies have bundled you into a corner.

Subject: RE: BS: Palestinian 'facts'
From: Teribus
Date: 03 Jun 08 - 12:53 AM

Ah, I see Guest Zack you can't read, that would explain a great deal.

Subject: RE: BS: Palestinian 'facts'
From: GUEST,Arnie
Date: 03 Jun 08 - 02:48 PM

Arnon Groiss, author of the report, "Palestinian Textbooks: From Arafat to Abbas and Hamas" said most of the textbooks from grade one to 10, issued under the late Yasser Arafat's rule, did not acknowledge any historical Jewish presence in ancient Palestine, nor does modern-day Israel appear on maps. Jews are vilified as schemers and killers.

But in grade 11 books issued under Abbas, there are two maps showing Israel within the so-called "green line" - the cease-fire line before the 1967 war, when Israel captured east Jerusalem, the Gaza Strip and the West Bank. The textbooks issued under Abbas' rule also include a discussion of Jewish history in the region, the report said.

However, in 2006, the Islamist Hamas came to power and issued a grade 12 textbook that dramatically reversed those steps. Jews are likened to snakes, and fighting for the sake of Palestine is praised effusively.

Mixed with anti-Semitic sentiments in the textbooks are genuine Palestinian complaints against Israel, including settlement building in areas Palestinians want for their future state, and the Israeli separation barrier, which often significantly deviates from the "green line."

"Palestinian grievances are legitimate - they were harshly hurt by Israel," said Groiss. "But if (Jewish Israelis) are only presented through that prism, that's wrong. We can't see any balance," he said.

Jamal Zakkout, spokesman for Palestinian Prime Minister Salam Fayyad, said Palestinian textbooks should emphasize connection to the land "and a call for tolerance."

Subject: RE: BS: Palestinian 'facts'
From: Peace
Date: 03 Jun 08 - 05:05 PM

Well, no doubt folks will be along soon enough to excuse that, Arnie.

Subject: RE: BS: Palestinian 'facts'
From: Emma B
Date: 03 Jun 08 - 06:10 PM

no 'excuses'...... maybe some 'facts'

'JERUSALEM: Palestinian textbooks contain incitement to hatred of Israel, right? Both President George W. Bush and President Bill Clinton have said so. Zionist groups constantly lobby European foreign ministries to stop support for Palestinian textbooks on that basis

Detailed analyses of the textbooks have been done by research institutes. The U.S. Consulate General in Jerusalem commissioned studies from the Israel/Palestine Center for Research and Information (IPCRI), and in Europe the Georg Eckert Institute facilitated research. Research papers have also been published in international fora such as the Hebrew University's Harry S. Truman Research Institute for the Advancement of Peace, the Palestine-Israel Journal of Politics, Economics and Culture, and presented at the Oslo Coalition on Freedom of Religion or Belief.

At the political level, a U.S. Senate subcommittee on Palestinian education and the Political Committee of the European Parliament have both held hearings on the matter. No country's textbooks have been subjected to as much close scrutiny as the Palestinian.

The findings? It turns out that the original allegations were based on Egyptian or Jordanian textbooks and incorrect translations. Time and again, independently of each other, researchers find no incitement to hatred in the Palestinian textbooks.'

Roger Avenstrup (an international education consultant who has worked in various countries in conflict and post-conflict situations)
writing in The International Herald Tribune

Subject: RE: BS: Palestinian 'facts'
From: GUEST,Zach
Date: 03 Jun 08 - 06:16 PM

Well said Emma. Good post. Such a contrast from reading the senseless ranting from Looney Tunes Teribus.

Subject: RE: BS: Palestinian 'facts'
From: Emma B
Date: 03 Jun 08 - 06:55 PM

Well I have been accused of 'finding and posting opinions that support your position, and using inflammatory terminology'

I make no apology for the 'cut and paste' these are not just my 'opinions' but information from legitimate and respected sources.

Subject: RE: BS: Palestinian 'facts'
From: Peace
Date: 03 Jun 08 - 07:51 PM

A rebuttal to the Avenstrup article.

"If you have a Ph. D. after your name, manifest a fashionable anti-Sharon and anti-Bush stance, and mention a few obscure reports from a few obscure think tanks, there is a good chance you will be able to print absolute non-sense in The International Herald Tribune.

Take a look Roger Avenstrup's December 18 column in the International Herald Tribune "Palestinian textbooks: Where is all that 'incitement '?"

It has been eagerly cited in anti-Zionists blogs and websites. And will be read by many more. Few who read the Avesntrup's opinion piece will bother to check out the sources he cites.

According to Avenstrup each and every analysis of Palestinian textbooks by research institutes have given them a clean bill of health In reality, the studies of the Israel/Palestine Center for Research and Information have been quite critical. The 2004 report, for instance, says of the Palestinian textbooks "... it is not difficult to come to the understanding that the main political theme imparted to the students is that Israel should not exist and that is essentially the Palestinian goal. Assuming that this is not the political message that the Palestinian Authority adheres to, there is a need to make real revisions and amendments in the Palestinian text books."

Avenstrup is, of course, free to disagree with the conclusions on the IPCRI. Instead he blatantly misrepresents their studies."

from

newappeal.blogspot.com/2004_12_01_archive.html

Subject: RE: BS: Palestinian 'facts'
From: GUEST,Arnie
Date: 03 Jun 08 - 07:51 PM

I have not read
Arnon Groiss, author of the report, "Palestinian Textbooks: From Arafat to Abbas and Hamas", but I find it hard to believe a book like this would be baseless and bogus. He must provide some concrete examples. I'll have to look into it.

I AM skeptical about your post Emma that states "Time and again, independently of each other, researchers find no incitement to hatred in the Palestinian textbooks."

Subject: RE: BS: Palestinian 'facts'
From: Peace
Date: 03 Jun 08 - 08:05 PM

"Report: Palestinian textbooks portray Jews badly
By DIAA HADID – 53 minutes ago

JERUSALEM (AP) — Authors of Palestinian school textbooks took small steps toward softening their portrayal Israel under the rule of moderate Palestinian President Mahmoud Abbas — but progress was quickly reversed after the militant Islamic Hamas took over, according to a report released on Tuesday.

The report by the Institute for Monitoring Peace and Cultural Tolerance in School Education and by the American Jewish Committee looked at 120 textbooks published from 2000 to 2006.

The report reflects charges by Israelis that Palestinian textbooks are not in keeping with a peace process that started in 1993. Palestinians counter that Jewish Israeli students are not taught about Palestinian suffering.

Arnon Groiss, author of the report, said most of the textbooks from grade one to 10, issued under the late Yasser Arafat's rule, don't acknowledge any historical Jewish presence in ancient Palestine.

But in 11th grade books issued under the moderate Abbas, there are two maps showing Israel within the "Green Line" — the cease-fire line before the 1967 war, when Israel captured east Jerusalem, the Gaza Strip and the West Bank. The textbooks issued under Abbas' rule also include a discussion of Jewish history in the region, the report said.

However, in 2006, the militant Islamic Hamas won an election and issued a 12th grade textbook that dramatically reversed those steps, the report said.

Mixed with anti-Semitic sentiments in the textbooks are genuine Palestinian complaints against Israel, including settlement building in areas Palestinians want for their future state, and the Israeli separation barrier, which swallows swathes of West Bank land.

Jamal Zakkout, spokesman for Palestinian Prime Minister Salam Fayyad, said Palestinian textbooks should emphasize connection to the land and "a call for tolerance."

However, Zakkout said the main cause of Palestinian ill will toward Israel is not textbooks, but Israel's many checkpoints in the West Bank, the separation barrier and military operations in Palestinian towns.

Hamas officials were not available for comment Tuesday."

Subject: RE: BS: Palestinian 'facts'
From: Peace
Date: 03 Jun 08 - 08:07 PM

Articles y'all might wanna read.

Subject: RE: BS: Palestinian 'facts'
From: Emma B
Date: 03 Jun 08 - 08:30 PM

'Ruth Firer of the Harry S. Truman Institute for the Advancement of Peace at the Hebrew University of Jerusalem and Sami Adwan, a professor of education at Bethlehem University in Bethlehem compared Palestinian and Israeli textbooks in 2002.

Of the Palestinian textbooks they found that "The books portray Jews throughout history in a positive manner and avoid negative stereotypes.
However, according to the everyday experience of Palestinians, modern-day Israelis are presented as occupiers. The texts include examples of Israelis killing and imprisoning Palestinians, demolishing their homes, uprooting fruit trees, and confiscating their lands and building settlements on them. The texts also talk about the right of return for the 1948 Palestinian refugees when describing how those refugees live in camps."

The Israeli textbooks, on the other hand don't even mention Palestinians "The Palestinians, as such, are not found in any of the three types of primary-level textbooks.

" Disputed territory is presented as being part of Israel: "Many of the chapters describe "the good land," sometimes called "our birthplace" or "homeland" ("moledet" in Hebrew), and include photos of places that are in the PNA or are in dispute between the two nations (i.e., East Jerusalem). They are presented without the national-political debate, and as naturally belonging to the Israeli state."

Their 2004 study of 13 Israeli textbooks and 9 Palestinian textbooks found that "neither side's books tell the story of the conflict from the other's viewpoint, both ignore the other side's suffering and each counts only its only victims."


The George Eckert Institute for International Textbook Research compared Palestinian and Israeli textbooks in December 2002. According to Jonathan Kriener of the institute, "The crucial difference between both sets of textbooks lies in the overall unanimity of the Palestinian textbooks versus a broad spectrum of different approaches in Israel, ranging from Ultra-orthodox school books, in which 'Language is used that conveys an air of superiority and negative expressions …' and in which 'The map of Israel always includes all of the territory between the Mediterranean Sea and the River Jordan.' to books in which highly controversial political issues are discussed quite openly.
Although manifesting itself in different ways, the influence of fundamentalist religious movements is growing on both sides, and is likely to continue to do so while the conflict remains unresolved'

From Wiki

One final report from The Jewish News Weekly of Northern Califonia

"Where do persistent reports of incitement in Palestinian textbooks come from?" asks Nathan Brown, a Jewish professor of political science at George Washington University.

"Virtually all can be traced back to the work of a single organization, the 'Center for Monitoring the Impact of Peace,'" founded by Israeli Itamar Marcus. Those involved "rely on misleading and tendentious reports to support their claim of incitement," writes Brown, in a 2001 report delivered at Israel's Adam Institute for Democracy and Peace.....

....in response to pressure from Congress to investigate, the U.S. government commissioned the Israel-Palestine Center for Research and Information to convene a team of professional educators — Israeli, Palestinian and American. Their 2003 report concluded: "While there are many areas for improvement in the Palestinian textbooks, it can be said that these new textbooks do not incite against Israel or against peace."

Professor Ruth Firer of Hebrew University and Palestinian Professor Sami Adwan of Bethlehem University also decided "it is important to compare the Israeli and Palestinian textbooks to each other, rather than to look at only one set by itself, in order to get a complete picture of the role they play in peace education, or the opposite." They did that in a study sponsored by Hebrew University's Truman Research Institute for the Advancement of Peace, and by the United States Institute of Peace and UNESCO'

Subject: RE: BS: Palestinian 'facts'
From: Peace
Date: 03 Jun 08 - 08:35 PM

"They did that in a study sponsored by Hebrew University's Truman Research Institute for the Advancement of Peace, and by the United States Institute of Peace and UNESCO'"

Anyone know how to get to that study?

Subject: RE: BS: Palestinian 'facts'
From: Peace
Date: 03 Jun 08 - 08:49 PM

Selective quoting. Here's the whole article.

Subject: RE: BS: Palestinian 'facts'
From: Peace
Date: 03 Jun 08 - 09:07 PM

'The General Secretariat of the Council of the European Union stated in May 2002:



"New textbooks…are free of inciteful content…constituting a valuable contribution to the education of young Palestinians.



"Allegations against the new textbooks funded by EU members have proven unfounded."'


Thus demonstrating that the textbooks were prior to that inciteful.Prof what'sisname seems to have conveniently overlooked those books in his 'study'.

Subject: RE: BS: Palestinian 'facts'
From: Emma B
Date: 03 Jun 08 - 09:15 PM

Peace I gave the source of the quotes in order that people may read the whole article.

Here is another you may wish to read in its entirity

THE POLITICS OF PALESTINIAN TEXTBOOKS

This article analyzes the attempt by extremist Israeli groups to frame the issue of content in Palestinian textbooks in a manner that is consistent with their overall political agenda of discrediting the Palestinian Authority. It suggests an alternative way of examining the content of these texts on the basis of established professional literature in the field of education. It also explores the Israeli and Palestinian debates about what historical narratives should be included in textbooks and what images of the "Other" these texts need to present.

......The research that Ruth Firer (Truman Institute) and her Palestinian co-researcher Sami Adwan (Bethlehem University) carried out as part of a peace education project sponsored by the Truman Institute suggests ways of framing the issues in school textbooks. Firer and Adwan question whether either Palestinian or Israeli textbooks prepare students to accept values of peace, openness, human rights

Firer finds, among other things, that Palestinians had not been "granted any identity as a nation in Israeli textbooks until after the 1973 war."
Prior to that, the Palestinians were viewed as "a mob who were incited by corrupt politicians against their own good." The predominant emphasis in Israeli textbooks gives priority to the "historical and political rights of the Jews in 'Eretz Israel'" (referring to all of historic Palestine, including the territories occupied by Israel in June 1967).
All the Israeli school texts continue to present Israelis as peace loving and Arabs as terrorists who prefer war.
In order to change old and fixed attitudes and to help ensure a lasting peace, suggests Firer, both Israeli and Arab educational systems must drastically revise humanistic education as well as school climate. In other words, they must move away from a "culture of war," where each side demonizes the other, to a "culture of peace," where a more empathetic image begins to emerge.'


I don't think the folks at CAMERA (The Committee for Accuracy in Middle East Reporting in America) a pro-Israeli organization founded in 1982 to respond to perceived anti-Israel bias in The Washington Post will be too happy about that article either despite the final plea for -

'conflict reconciliation, as opposed to conflict resolution or conflict settlement'

Subject: RE: BS: Palestinian 'facts'
From: Emma B
Date: 03 Jun 08 - 09:47 PM

btw before y'all read articles from Camera maybe a little more should be known about that 'source'

Commentary and critiques

In a 2003 profile of the organization in the The Boston Globe , Mark Jurkowitz observed:
"To its supporters, CAMERA is figuratively - and perhaps literally - doing God's work, battling insidious anti-Israeli bias in the media. But its detractors see CAMERA as a myopic and vindictive special interest group trying to muscle its views into media coverage."

The group has been criticized as not seeking accuracy in reporting but rather engaging in censorship and fighting for a pro-Israeli bias:

Mitchell Kaidy, writing in the Washington Report on Middle East Affairs, criticized CAMERA's efforts to pressure university libraries to remove books that the organization finds offensive.

Journalist and author Robert I. Friedman wrote in 1987 that "CAMERA, the A.D.L., AIPAC and the rest of the lobby don't want fairness, but bias in their favor. And they are prepared to use McCarthyite tactics, as well as the power and money of pro-Israel PACs, to get whatever Israel wants."

Writing about criticisms from CAMERA he and his colleagues have received, Jerusalem-based journalist Gershom Gorenberg wrote " It is not the press's job to provide PR for any government. Until CAMERA gets this straight, self-respecting journalists will regard an occasional snarl from the watchdog as proof that they're doing their job."

Subject: RE: BS: Palestinian 'facts'
From: Emma B
Date: 04 Jun 08 - 02:48 AM

For any fellow Brits out there who have a vague feeling that CAMERA may be something to do with real ale be aware they have launched a 'British Project' aimed at the 'problematic Middle East coverage' of the BBC and aiming to 'deal' with targeted media like The Guardian* and the Tndependent.

* Ian Mayes. president of the Organisation of News Ombudsmen, commenting on complaints against The Guardian's Jerusalem correspondent, Rory McCarthy, concluded that 'to question him further would be to collude in the harassment of a journalist trying to report accurately in a very difficult situation.'
from The readers' editor on ... a ruling in favour of freedom of expression


CAMERA have already accused Israel's leading newspaper, Haaretz, of distortions and falsehoods about Israel and asserted that National Public Radio's "coverage of the Arab-Israeli conflict has long been marred by a striking anti-Israel tilt, with severe bias, error and lack of balance commonplace."

CAMERA supported a boycott against NPR, and demanded the firing of NPR's foreign editor, Loren Jenkins it has lobbied NPR's supporters to withhold funds.

The Boston-based public radio station WBUR, which relies on private donations, corporate sponsorship and some government funding for its operating budget, reports losing one million dollars so far in cancelled funding since the campaign began — seven per cent of its annual financial support.

Washington Post ombudsman Michael Getler, who like others with his title, is charged with assessing the fairness and accuracy of his newspaper's coverage posed the question

"Is it possible that so many major American news organisations are getting this story wrong — that some sort of national media conspiracy is at work here?
That, of course, is not the case, and news organisations will persevere in reporting this story in an unflinching, unintimidated fashion that reports the news in the most accurate way possible for their entire readership," he wrote.

One prominent detractor, Rabbi Michael Lerner, editor of the San Francisco-based Tikkun magazine, who was accused by CAMERA of "being guilty of "demonstrably false and baseless defaming of Israel, wildly distorted out of context accusations against Israel." said the pressure campaigns are a form of "McCarthyism that is attempting to prevent the American media from telling any part of the story from the perspective of what is happening to Palestinians."

"In the long run this will produce more anti-Semitism and less security for Jews," Lerner said. "This is counterproductive."

Subject: RE: BS: Palestinian 'facts'
From: beardedbruce
Date: 04 Jun 08 - 07:19 AM

"In Palestinian text books dealing with Islamic studies - concepts such as Jihad and martyrdom are presented in contexts that suggest being supportive and encouraging young people to admire both the concept of suicide bombing aimed at killing Israelis, as well as to consider the possibility of becoming suicide bombers themselves. . . .

It should be mentioned, that in our view, some of the [international and Israeli] reports and some of the motivation for writing the reports were part of the anti-Palestinian propaganda campaign waged by various right-wing Israeli and pro-Israeli groups, nevertheless, the substantive critiques with quotations and hard evidence cannot and should not be ignored by the Palestinian Authority as a mere anti-Palestinian propaganda campaign . (Emphasis added.)


The document goes into greater detail about these and additional problems in the sections called "Palestine," "Dealing with the 'Other,'" "Dealing with Islamic Texts and Concepts," and "Dealing with Jerusalem."

In addition, this report dispels the common propaganda repeated by Avenstrup that "the original allegations [of incitement] were based on Egyptian or Jordanian textbooks." As the IPCRI report correctly notes:


With the establishment of the Palestinian Authority in 1994, the Palestinians took charge of the educational system, inheriting outdated text books, (Jordanian in the West Bank and Egyptian in Gaza) that had been modified by the Israeli Military Government's education department. The modifications to the text books by Israel concerned the removal of anti-Israel or anti-Jewish content that may have existed in the texts.

The new Palestinian Ministry of Education immediately reverted back to using non-Israeli-modified text books and at the same time launched a process of preparing a new Palestinian curriculum."

Subject: RE: BS: Palestinian 'facts'
From: CarolC
Date: 05 Jun 08 - 04:44 PM

I can point anyone to numerous posts from me in which I have said that Jews who left other countries in the Middle East should be allowed to return to their countries of origin if they want to. But I will let others do their own work and find them on their own. They're there. I haven't pressed for compensation for those Jews, but neither am I pressing for compensation for the Palestinians.

As we can see, others are allowed to make personal attacks on me, but since I am not allowed to respond to them, that is all I can say at this time.

Subject: RE: BS: Palestinian 'facts'
From: CarolC
Date: 05 Jun 08 - 04:52 PM

Israeli textbooks show all of occupied Palestine as being part of Israel...

http://newjewisheducation.blogspot.com/2006/12/israeli-textbooks-green-line-and-yuli.html

Israel expects the Palestinians to recognize borders that Israeli itself does not recognize.

Subject: RE: BS: Palestinian 'facts'
From: Peace
Date: 05 Jun 08 - 04:59 PM

Anyone got jujubes?

Subject: RE: BS: Palestinian 'facts'
From: Polite Guest
Date: 05 Jun 08 - 05:58 PM

Anyone got jujubes?

Suitably, for this strange thread, Israel has:

Israeli Jujube Tree


I expect Palestine may have too, somewhere.

Subject: RE: BS: Palestinian 'facts'
From: beardedbruce
Date: 12 Jun 08 - 01:27 PM

First you attack Israel, THEN you determine it was your own explosives...


Blast flattens house of Hamas commander, killing 7

By IBRAHIM BARZAK, Associated Press Writer
29 minutes ago



BEIT LAHIYA, Gaza Strip - A blast flattened the house of a militant commander in the Gaza Strip Thursday, killing seven people and wounding 40, Palestinian officials said.

Israel, which routinely accepts responsibility for attacks on military targets, denied involvement, and Hamas opened an investigation, an indication the militant Islamic rulers of Gaza believe the explosion might have been caused by accidental detonation of explosives in the house.

Earlier, Hamas blamed Israel and unleashed a barrage of rockets and mortars at Israel's south.

The spiraling violence threatened to undermine last-ditch efforts to secure a truce between Israel and Hamas and stave off an Israeli invasion of Gaza.

Ambulances rushed to the scene and residents of nearby homes brought shovels and bulldozers to help dig people out of the rubble. Three people covered in blood were carried out on stretchers and hurried into ambulances that sped them to the local hospital.

Hamas released a statement saying seven people were killed, including a baby, a senior aide to the Hamas interior minister and a Hamas militant who later died of his wounds. Several bodies were pulled from the rubble. In all, Hamas said, five of the dead were militants. The Hamas commander, Ahmed Hamouda, was not home at the time of the explosion.

Cars parked nearby were destroyed and covered with dust, and windows of neighboring houses and shops were shattered by the impact of the blast. Electricians were on the scene trying to disable live wires in the house, which had been reduced to a pile of debris.

Hamas security officials pushed back a screaming mob of hundreds to keep them from disrupting the rescue efforts.

"It was a huge explosion," said Majid Abu Samra, a local resident. "The house was destroyed, and there are people still buried under the rubble. I evacuated two women who were covered in dust and blood."

Maj. Avital Leibovich, an Israeli army spokeswoman, said the military was not operating in the area at the time. "We deny any connection to this incident," she said.

Announcing the investigation, Hamas spokesman Abu Obeida said results would be made public. The statement was taken as a Hamas acknowledgment that the blast was probably accidental, not an Israeli attack. Dozens of militants have been killed while handing explosives in recent years.

Shortly after the explosion, Hamas said it fired a barrage of mortar shells and rockets toward southern Israel. Israel's national rescue service said a 59-year-old woman was moderately wounded when a rocket struck a home on an Israeli communal farm. Palestinian officials said Israeli tanks fired on the launching area used by Hamas.

Subject: RE: BS: Palestinian 'facts'
From: Peace
Date: 12 Jun 08 - 01:47 PM

"Israel, which routinely accepts responsibility for attacks on military targets, denied involvement, and Hamas opened an investigation, an indication the militant Islamic rulers of Gaza believe the explosion might have been caused by accidental detonation of explosives in the house."

I wanted to read that bit again. Thanks.

Subject: RE: BS: Palestinian 'facts'
From: beardedbruce
Date: 18 Jun 08 - 05:10 PM

Rockets, airstrikes come hours before Gaza truce By MATTI FRIEDMAN, Associated Press Writer
36 minutes ago



JERUSALEM - Palestinian militants fired 50 rockets and mortars toward Israel on Wednesday, and Israel responded with airstrikes in Gaza just hours before a truce was to take effect, illustrating how fragile the cease-fire between Israel and Hamas would be.

In another diplomatic initiative, Israel called on neighboring Lebanon to open peace negotiations — an overture that was quickly rejected by Lebanon's prime minister.

After a year of violence that has killed more than 400 Palestinians and seven Israelis, the leaders of both sides expressed hope a truce would succeed — but made clear they have little faith in their adversaries' commitment to the deal.

"I hope it will succeed. I believe there will be quiet in (Israel's) south," Israeli Prime Minister Ehud Olmert said in a speech to philanthropists. But he also said he instructed his military "to prepare for any operation, short or long, that might be necessary" if the truce breaks down as several previous ones have.

In Gaza, Hamas Prime Minister Ismail Haniyeh said the truce would ease the lives of Gazans, but success or failure was in Israel's hands. "The calm is going to bring stability to Israel if they commit themselves to it," he said.

The truce deal between Israel and Hamas was reached after months of efforts by Egypt and could avert a large-scale Israeli military incursion. The talks were brokered by Egypt because Israel, like much of the international community, shuns Hamas for refusing to recognize Israel or renounce violence.

But on Wednesday, violence was still in evidence and a truce seemed remote. The military said at least 40 rockets and 10 mortar shells exploded in Israel by nightfall, an especially high one-day total.

Islamic Jihad claimed responsibility for much of the rocket fire, saying it was to avenge Israeli airstrikes that killed 10 militants in the previous two days. Israel hit back with two more airstrikes, wounding two Palestinians, according to Hamas security officials.

One of the militant rockets exploded in Ilan Basherim's greenhouse at Moshav Yesha, not far from Gaza. The 38-year-old Israeli said a truce would not improve security for border communities like his.

"This cease-fire will give more strength to Hamas, and they will be more violent in another six months. This is not good for Israel, and definitely not good for us," Basherim said.

Palestinians in Gaza have suffered the consequences of punishing Israeli retribution — airstrikes and military raids targeting gunmen and a blockade that has cut off many vital supplies. Israelis in communities near the Gaza Strip have lived for years with barrages of mortars and rockets that send them scrambling for cover almost every day.

According to the truce terms, militants will immediately halt their attacks on Israel, and Israel will cease its raids when the accord takes effect at 6 a.m. Thursday.

After three days, Israel is to ease the Gaza blockade, and a week later Israel will further ease restrictions at cargo crossings. In a final stage, the sides are supposed to talk about opening a major border crossing between Gaza and Egypt and the return of an Israeli soldier held in Gaza by Hamas militants for two years. The truce is supposed to last for six months.

A cease-fire in November 2006 lasted only weeks before unraveling.

In Washington, White House deputy press secretary Gordon Johndroe was hopeful.

"We hope this means no more rockets will be fired by Hamas at innocent Israelis as well as lead to a better atmosphere for talks between Israel and the Palestinian Authority," he said. "But for that to happen, Hamas has to choose to become a legitimate political party and give up terrorism."

Khaled Abdel Halem, a 24-year-old Gaza law student, said he would be happy if Israel lifted the blockade, alleviating Gaza's abject poverty.

"But honestly, I don't have much hope that this agreement will hold for a long time. We are not talking about an agreement between friends or brothers. We are talking about a deal between two enemies who wish death for each other all the time," he said.

Peter Lerner, an Israeli military spokesman, said preparations were under way to increase the number of trucks carrying goods into Gaza beginning Sunday if the truce holds. Only one crossing is currently capable of operating at full capacity because two others have been damaged by Palestinian attacks, he said.

Lerner said fuel shipments would not immediately increase. Israel has restricted fuel supplies into Gaza, causing shortages and forcing motorists to use alternative modes of transportation.

Israel's call on Lebanon to open peace talks came after the second round of indirect talks between Israel and Syria in Turkey — contacts made public just last month.

Government spokesman Mark Regev said Israel was interested in direct, bilateral talks and ready to put "every issue of contention" on the table, including the dispute over the Chebaa Farms enclave. A U.N.-drawn border calls the 15-square-mile parcel of wasteland part of Syria under Israeli occupation, but Hezbollah insists it belongs to Lebanon and has used it to explain its continuing attacks on Israel.

Lebanese Prime Minister Fuad Saniora rejected Israel's call.

"Lebanon's known position before this government is that there is no place for bilateral negotiations between Lebanon and Israel," Saniora's media office said in a statement late Wednesday.

Hezbollah legislator Nawar al-Saheli told The Associated Press that the Israeli offer is "ridiculous propaganda."

U.S. pressure may be behind the Israeli move. On Monday, Secretary of State Condoleezza Rice announced U.S. backing for a new diplomatic push to resolve the Chebaa Farms land dispute in a gesture to the new Lebanese government, and as a catalyst for solving bigger issues in the region.

Subject: RE: BS: Palestinian 'facts'
From: John on the Sunset Coast
Date: 18 Jun 08 - 07:01 PM

Surprise! SurPrize! Gotta get that last hit in.

Subject: RE: BS: Palestinian 'facts'
From: beardedbruce
Date: 19 Jun 08 - 07:48 AM

Washington Post


Truce in Gaza
A Middle East conflict is postponed.

Thursday, June 19, 2008; Page A18

ATRUCE between Israel and Hamas was to begin this morning in the Gaza Strip, ending daily barrages of rockets that have terrorized nearby Israeli towns as well as counterstrikes that have killed more than 350 Palestinians this year. In accepting the Egyptian-brokered deal, Israel embraced the least bad of the limited options it has for countering Hamas, which has been turning Gaza into a fortified base for advancing the cause of Islamist extremism in the region -- a cause it shares with Iran. For a while, Israeli civilians will be relieved from having to duck into bomb shelters, and Gazans will be better supplied with food and other essential goods. How long the peace lasts, and whether it does more good than harm, will depend on how well Israel and Hamas's moderate Palestinian rivals use the calm.

In political terms, Hamas is the immediate beneficiary of the deal -- one reason the government of Prime Minister Ehud Olmert was slow to agree to it. One year after it drove out the secular administration of President Mahmoud Abbas, the Islamist movement has consolidated control over Gaza and demonstrated that it can force Israel into acknowledging its authority. If a border crossing with Egypt is reopened, as the agreement contemplates, relatively normal life and commerce could resume in the territory. Mr. Abbas, who was already planning a visit to Gaza to discuss a rapprochement with Hamas's leadership, will now do so from a weaker position.

The strategy of both Israel and the United States has been to strengthen Mr. Abbas and his West Bank-based Palestinian Authority against Hamas, by matching a blockade of Gaza with measures to improve conditions in the West Bank and negotiations to create a Palestinian state. Unfortunately, little progress has been made on the second front -- though that is where the Bush administration has concentrated its effort. Israel has been reluctant to loosen its security grip on the West Bank and slow to dismantle even those Jewish settlements it has deemed illegal. While the peace negotiations have been conducted in secret since late last year, most public indications are that they have not advanced far.


At best, Mr. Olmert and Mr. Abbas would now press to complete a peace deal, so that the Palestinian president would have a tangible and attractive alternative to offer to Hamas's promise of endless "resistance" to the Jewish state. Some hope that an accord between the two Palestinian factions could give Mr. Abbas leeway to close the deal for statehood. Yet Mr. Olmert, who has been badly weakened by scandals, appears more interested in brokering a prisoner exchange with Hezbollah and in conducting long-shot peace talks with Lebanon and Syria than in making tough decisions about matters such as the future of Jerusalem. Both Israel and its Iranian-backed enemies are maneuvering for tactical advantage, trying to bolster their positions as they await a new U.S. president. They have not averted the major conflict that has threatened the region for the last couple of years -- only postponed it.

Subject: RE: BS: Palestinian 'facts'
From: Bill H //\\
Date: 19 Jun 08 - 07:18 PM

Well, hopefully the truce holds. Quite problematical.

What I really wanted to do when I came upon this thread---won't deign to call it a discussion given the diatribes.---was Carol C (and please don't feel any need to respond given the stricture you speak of)---Question: Other than your constant one sided comments (many--note I said many--not accurate) with reagrd to the Middle East are there any other obsessions--asided from your health care problems that might be something that this forum would not want to hear about?

Bill Hahn

Subject: RE: BS: Palestinian 'facts'
From: Don(Wyziwyg)T
Date: 20 Jun 08 - 06:55 AM

"If anti-semitism is unacceptable, then so is anti-whatever-the-heck-you-call-it-when-it's-the-Palestinians-who-are-being-attacked in general as a people."


That's fairy easy LH. It's anti Semitism.

That's what makes this situation doubly sad.

Don T.

Subject: RE: BS: Palestinian 'facts'
From: John on the Sunset Coast
Date: 20 Jun 08 - 01:49 PM

Headlines from today's Jerusalem Post online:

A.
"Haniyeh: Hamas won't halt smuggling into Gaza
Hamas leader denies committing to stop weapons-trafficking as part of cease-fire deal, says his gov't is incapable of such action."

Comment: What's a cease-fire for if not to re-arm, anyway?.

B.
"3 hikers wounded in West Bank attack
Two masked Palestinian terrorists fired at five Israelis from close range near Neveh Tsuf."

Comment: Well, that's not covered by the Hamas cease-fire.

Subject: RE: BS: Palestinian 'facts'
From: beardedbruce
Date: 24 Jun 08 - 03:31 PM

Rockets hit Israel, which says truce broken

By AMY TEIBEL, Associated Press Writer
Tue Jun 24, 12:20 PM ET



JERUSALEM - Palestinian militants on Tuesday fired three homemade rockets into southern Israel, the first such attack since a cease-fire between Israel and Gaza militants took effect last week.

Israel condemned the attack as a "gross violation" of the truce, but did not say whether it would retaliate.

The barrage wounded two people and capped a day of violence that presented the truce with its first serious test.

Just before midnight, Palestinian militants fired a mortar shell into an empty area in southern Israel. And in a pre-dawn raid, Israeli troops killed two Palestinians in the West Bank city of Nablus.

Islamic Jihad, a small armed group backed by Syria and Iran, claimed responsibility for the rocket fire. Although the West Bank is not included in the truce, the group said the Nablus raid had soured the atmosphere of calm.

"We cannot keep our hands tied when this is happening to our brothers in the West Bank," the militant group said.

Hamas spokesman Sami Abu Zuhri said the rocket attack came because of "Israeli provocation this morning" and added that Hamas was "committed to the calm." He said Hamas will talk with other factions and make sure they are committed, too.

The Egyptian-brokered truce went into effect Thursday. The immediate aim was to end fighting that has killed seven Israelis and more than 400 Palestinians — many of them civilians — since Hamas gained control of Gaza a year ago.

It also obliges Israel to ease a punishing blockade of the coastal strip.

In a final stage, the sides are to address Hamas' demand to reopen a major border passage between Gaza and Egypt and Israel's insistence that Hamas release an Israeli soldier it has held for two years.

The cease-fire is meant to avert an Israeli invasion of Gaza, a tiny, impoverished seaside territory of 1.4 million people that Israel evacuated in 2005 after a 38-year military occupation.

The deal extends beyond Hamas to all militant groups operating in Gaza but does not include the West Bank.

Egypt acted as middleman for the six-month truce because Israel, like much of the international community, shuns Hamas for refusing to recognize Israel or renounce violence.

Israeli Prime Minister Ehud Olmert flew to Egypt on Tuesday for talks with Egyptian President Hosni Mubarak.

Upon entering the meeting in the Red Sea resort of Sharm el-Sheik, Mubarak said the two would discuss efforts to release the Israeli soldier, Sgt. Gilad Schalit. Olmert hailed Egyptian efforts to end attacks on Israel from Gaza.

Israel has pressed Egypt to crack down on arms smuggling from Egypt's Sinai desert into Gaza.

On Tuesday, Olmert was quoted in the London-based Al-Sharq Al-Awsat daily as saying that if the smuggling did not end, then Israel would consider the cease-fire agreement violated, and "we will be compelled to military action."

Early Tuesday, Israeli troops killed a senior Islamic Jihad commander in a raid in the West Bank town of Nablus.

A neighbor said a Palestinian bystander was also shot to death by troops when he opened the door of his apartment during the raid. The Israeli military said the man was a militant killed during a gunbattle with troops.

Islamic Jihad said the commander of its northern West Bank operations, Tarek Juma, was killed in the operation.

The military said Juma was targeted because he was planning an attack on Israel. Troops found explosive devices and munitions in his apartment, it said.

In Germany, Palestinian Prime Minister Salam Fayyad condemned the operation.

Fayyad, whose government is trying to negotiate a peace deal with Israel, has said continuing military operations are undermining efforts to have Palestinian security forces restore law and order in the West Bank.

This was "an example of the kind of activity that has to stop and has to stop immediately and promptly if we are going to succeed in providing security to our people," said Fayyad, who is attending an international conference aimed at bolstering his security forces. "There was absolutely no exchange of information on this particular incident."

Also Tuesday, the Hamas military wing took responsibility for a shooting in the West Bank last week that injured three Israeli hikers. The claim was sent in a text message to Gaza journalists.

Subject: RE: BS: Palestinian 'facts'
From: CarolC
Date: 24 Jun 08 - 10:43 PM

Settler fires rocket in West Bank

I notice the settler who did this was only expelled from the seminary, but he was not charged with any crime.

Subject: RE: BS: Palestinian 'facts'
From: Peace
Date: 25 Jun 08 - 01:03 AM

Musta bought it from Hizbullah. Guidance system was crap.

Subject: RE: BS: Palestinian 'facts'
From: CarolC
Date: 25 Jun 08 - 01:15 AM

He built the rocket himself.

Subject: RE: BS: Palestinian 'facts'
From: John on the Sunset Coast
Date: 25 Jun 08 - 11:18 AM

CarolC--If your point is that that settler should receive more punishment, agreed.
If your post is a rebuttal to beardedbruce's, a justification of IJ's breaking the Gaza truce, you're way off base. The student's attack took place nearly two weeks before the Truce went into (non)effect.
I also note that before the Gaza truce was breached, Israel had already loosened the blockade, allowing supplies to enter Gaza. No good deed goes unpunished, as is said.

Subject: RE: BS: Palestinian 'facts'
From: beardedbruce
Date: 25 Jun 08 - 11:29 AM

He should get the same punishment that Hamas is giving to those palestinbians that are launching rockets at Israel....


But I suppose you would not think he deserves money, fame, and a parade.

Subject: RE: BS: Palestinian 'facts'
From: Peace
Date: 25 Jun 08 - 11:31 AM

LOL

Subject: RE: BS: Palestinian 'facts'
From: CarolC
Date: 25 Jun 08 - 12:30 PM

No point, in particular, just posting news items, like other people are doing in this thread.


Hamas doesn't need to punish anyone for launching rocket attacks. Israel is kind enough to take care of that for them. Not only that, they even are kind enough to collectively punish all of the people in Gaza for what the people who launch rocket attacks are doing.

If we're going to draw equivalences, perhaps we should say that the students who launched that rocket should receive the same punishment from Hamas as what the government of Israel gives to Palestinians who launch rockets, and that the people of Israel should receive the same collective punishment from Hamas as what the people in Gaza are experiencing from the government of Israel in response to rocket attacks.

Subject: RE: BS: Palestinian 'facts'
From: John on the Sunset Coast
Date: 25 Jun 08 - 01:17 PM

"Hamas doesn't need to punish anyone for launching rocket attacks. Israel is kind enough to take care of that for them."

Perhaps if Palestinian authorities punished rocket launchers, and homicide bomber planners, and snipers, instead of rewarding and lionizing them, Israel would not need to punish them...maybe hmmmm.

Subject: RE: BS: Palestinian 'facts'
From: CarolC
Date: 25 Jun 08 - 01:44 PM

Israel usually takes care of it before Hamas ever gets a chance to do anything about it. However, Hamas is not rewarding or lionizing the people who are launching the rockets. Saying they are is just idle gossip...

http://ca.news.yahoo.com/s/capress/080624/world/israel_palestinians

Hamas, the militant Islamic group that rules Gaza, promised to rein in the Iran-and Syria-backed faction that carried out the rocket attacks and pledged to remain committed to the truce that went into effect June 19 and urged restraint by all sides.

Subject: RE: BS: Palestinian 'facts'
From: beardedbruce
Date: 25 Jun 08 - 02:15 PM

"If we're going to draw equivalences, perhaps we should say that the students who launched that rocket should receive the same punishment from Hamas as what the government of Israel gives to Palestinians who launch rockets, and that the people of Israel should receive the same collective punishment from Hamas as what the people in Gaza are experiencing from the government of Israel in response to rocket attacks. "


What, you mean getting fired on by missles when they least expect it? Oh- they already ARE....

Except that Israel targets the ones wioth missiles, and Hamas encouraged Palestinians targets... everybody.

Subject: RE: BS: Palestinian 'facts'
From: John on the Sunset Coast
Date: 25 Jun 08 - 02:17 PM

CarolC/Wack-A-Mole...same game. Ya never know where she'll pop up next.

Subject: RE: BS: Palestinian 'facts'
From: CarolC
Date: 25 Jun 08 - 02:34 PM

I was specifically referring to the rockets that were launched since the cease fire was put into effect.

Israelis are hardly experiencing the same punishments that the Gazans are experiencing. Nobody is blockading them and preventing them from getting needed food, energy, water, and other resources, or preventing them from traveling from the areas where they live.


I notice that some people still think personal attacks constitute an actual argument. Hint: personal attacks are not an argument. They are a rather ignorant kind substitute for an argument, and are designed to silence those with whom the attacker disagrees. Maybe people think if they pummel me enough I will give up. I think six years of postings on this subject ought to set them straight on that. Or maybe they just enjoy abusing other people, which I guess wouldn't be too surprising in this context.

Subject: RE: BS: Palestinian 'facts'
From: John on the Sunset Coast
Date: 25 Jun 08 - 02:56 PM

Ah Carolc, you have no sense of allusion or analogy. CarolC makes an argument; X refutes the argument. CarolC moves the argument over here, to be refuted by someone else or even X. Now CarolC moves her argument over there. Then somewhere else, and some where else again. But she seldom actually addresses the original refutation. Hence Wack-A-Mole. If I offend you, so be it.