BS: Palestinian 'facts'

Subject: RE: BS: Palestinian 'facts'
From: Ghost of Electricity (inactive)
Date: 22 May 08 - 03:55 PM

Trivia note about Kahane:

When Kahane was a young rabbi in Brooklyn in the late 1950s and early 1960s, he used to give bar mitzvah lessons.

Among his students was Arlo Guthrie.

Subject: RE: BS: Palestinian 'facts'
From: bobad
Date: 22 May 08 - 03:56 PM

The item posted by Ghost of Electricity makes one wonder how many of the "iconic" atrocities attributed to the barbaric Israelis were staged in a similar fashion doesn't it?

Subject: RE: BS: Palestinian 'facts'
From: CarolC
Date: 22 May 08 - 04:09 PM

That one cuts both ways, bobad. Considering the fact that the Israeli government committed terrorist attacks in Egypt (Lavon Affair) using agents who pretended to be non-Jewish Arabs, one could also say, "makes one wonder how many of the "iconic" atrocities attributed to the barbaric Arabs were staged in a similar fashion doesn't it?" This could include all of the terrorist attacks in Israel and elsewhere, even 9/11.

After all, the Israelis who were filming the destruction of the Twin Towers were disguised as Arabs. I'd be careful about making those kinds of insinuations. As I said... they cut both ways.

Subject: RE: BS: Palestinian 'facts'
From: bobad
Date: 22 May 08 - 04:15 PM

Well I'm glad to see you considering both sides of the issue for a change. As for the assertion about the Israelis dressed as filmaking Arabs, could you provide a source for that.

Subject: RE: BS: Palestinian 'facts'
From: CarolC
Date: 22 May 08 - 04:42 PM

"Seeing both sides of the issue" is a pretty meaningless term, since most of the time in discussions like these, people who are arguing against Palestinian rights are attempting to define both sides.


None of these stories has all of the information, but when you put all of them together, you get a more complete picture. However, closer to 9/11, I saw quite a bit of reportage in the mainstream media that showed that there were numerous incidents of white vans and trucks with people dressed as Arabs in them doing suspicious things, and the ones who were stopped and questioned turned out to be Israelis...

Jerusalem Post (URL is too long to post)

http://www.zwire.com/site/mercury_101801.html

http://www.wnbc.com/news/1315651/detail.html

Subject: RE: BS: Palestinian 'facts'
From: CarolC
Date: 22 May 08 - 04:54 PM

Here's some of what was reported closer to 9/11...


"Police received several calls from angry New Jersey residents claiming 'middle-eastern' men with a white van were videotaping the disaster with shouts of joy and mockery."

--HA'ARETZ 9/17/01


"Also, five of the Israelis came to the FBI's attention after they were seen by New Jersey residents on Sept. 11 making fun of the World Trade Center ruins and going to extreme lengths to photograph themselves in front of the wreckage. The FBI seized and developed their photos, one of which shows Sivan Kurzberg flicking a cigarette lighter in front of the smouldering ruins in an apparently celebratory gesture."

--Associated Press 12/17/01


"Witnesses saw them jumping for joy in Liberty State Park after the initial impact. Later on, other witnesses saw them celebrating on a roof in Weehawken, and still more witnesses later saw them celebrating with high fives in a Jersey City parking lot."

--Yediot America 11/2/01


Kind of looks like they wanted people to think 9/11 was committed by Palestinians.

Subject: RE: BS: Palestinian 'facts'
From: Peace
Date: 22 May 08 - 05:00 PM

'"Seeing both sides of the issue" is a pretty meaningless term, since most of the time in discussions like these, people who are arguing against Palestinian rights are attempting to define both sides.'

Sounds just like you when you talk about Israel, Jews and Israelis. Huh.

Subject: RE: BS: Palestinian 'facts'
From: John on the Sunset Coast
Date: 22 May 08 - 06:15 PM

It has been written here by CarolC that the Zionist, Herbert Samuel, appointed al-Husseini as Grand Mufti of Jerusalem against the wishes of the Arab populace. We are to infer from this that the Mufti's appointment was a Zionist plot which controls Palestinians' destiny to this very minute, just one of a continuing number of such plots.

Well, not exactly! In the years immediately following WWI, Mr. al-Husseini, was fomenting riots in Palestine against Jews and the British mandate, and was a wanted man (by the British) in exile in 1920. Because the British wanted to appease the Arab population amongst whom he was, indeed, popular, al-Husseni was granted amnesty in 1921, and was appointed to be Grand Mufti by Samuel who was the British High Commissioner for Palestine. Commissioner Samuel was acting in his government position for the benefit of Great Britain and the Mandate, not as a Zionist (although he was personally a Zionist.)

Al-Husseini used his position to continue fomenting anti-Jewish riots and other mischief, and was deposed by the British in 1936. From there he went to Nazi Germany to aid in anti-Jewish activities, and eventually lived out his long life in Lebanon; he died there in 1974.

Grand plot? I don't think so.

Subject: RE: BS: Palestinian 'facts'
From: CarolC
Date: 22 May 08 - 10:18 PM

Sounds just like you when you talk about Israel, Jews and Israelis. Huh.

I don't see any reason to allow other people to define my side of the argument. I'll define it myself. You, for instance, try to always frame it in terms of those who support human rights for Palestinians as being Israel haters and Jew haters/bashers. I can certainly understand why you would need to do that, though, since you're trying to defend the indefensible, and it's the best you've got. Still, most intelligent people can see right through that sort of thing.

Subject: RE: BS: Palestinian 'facts'
From: CarolC
Date: 22 May 08 - 11:30 PM

Under law, the colonial power was to choose among the top three vote-getters. al-Husseini placed fourth, receiving only about 7% of the vote. Samuel forced the most popular candidate, Sheikh Husam al-Din to withdraw, which put al-Hesseini in third place, and Samuel appointed him Mufti for life.

Jews and Palestinians alike have Herbert Samuel to thank for every single act of violence and destruction committed by al-Husseini while he held this position and the other positions that arose from his being appointed Mufti of Jerusalem.

Herbert Samuel was most certainly not appeasing the Palestinians by skirting around the law and overriding their votes against al-Husseini. He was pursuing an agenda of his own that had nothing whatever to do with the welfare of either Jewish or non-Jewish Palestinians.

Subject: RE: BS: Palestinian 'facts'
From: Teribus
Date: 23 May 08 - 12:40 AM

CarolC - of the three "tribal" representatives put forward, which "tribe" traditionally held the post of "Mufti of Jerusalem"? Which "tribe" viewed the post as being historically "their" right?

Another minor point - those riots in 1920 you referred to occured before Samuel became Governor, the British Army under Allanby were still in control. Those riots (unprovoked attacks on Jews by Arabs) were instigated by al-Husseini in order to secure his appointment. The Al-Husseini "clan" was the most numerous/powerful in Palestine, note CarolC in Palestine, not in Jerusalem where the votes were cast. In the aftermath of the riots in 1920, al-Husseini put himself forward as the only candidate capable of controlling the Arab population and keeping the peace. That piece of "bullshit" the newly arrived Governor, Herbert Samuel, bought into, and that is what secured Al-Husseini the position.

But of course in another thread on this subject, you said that those riots never occured, you said that Arabs never attacked the Jews in 1920. Was that something else you found in the "webfairy" site.

I note in this thread up until now, the Palestinian advocates only refer to incidents since 1948, while they conveniently forget completely the events of the period 1920 to 1948. Without repeated acts of unprovoked violence visited upon their communities by the Arab population of Palestine during that period, Jewish organisations such as Haganah, Irgun and Stern Gang would never have existed, there would have been no need for them.

On the "Right of Return" take a good look at who qualifies as a refugee, and then tell me why that definition is totally unacceptable.

Subject: RE: BS: Palestinian 'facts'
From: CarolC
Date: 23 May 08 - 02:29 AM

CarolC - of the three "tribal" representatives put forward, which "tribe" traditionally held the post of "Mufti of Jerusalem"? Which "tribe" viewed the post as being historically "their" right?

I've seen differing viewpoints on this. Some of them say that the post was not hereditary, some say that members of the Husseini family had held the position for a few generations, and one of them even said (this was a pro-Zionist source, by the way) that even the Husseini family didn't think Haj Amin should become the Mufti. I think I'll hold off on forming an opinion about this until I see more information about it. Nevertheless, by law, al-Husseini had no rights to the position, and I fail to see what point you are trying to make with this question.


Another minor point - those riots in 1920 you referred to

Please show me where I referred to riots in 1920 in this thread.


But of course in another thread on this subject, you said that those riots never occured, you said that Arabs never attacked the Jews in 1920. Was that something else you found in the "webfairy" site.

Please show me where I said the riots never occurred.


Another minor point - those riots in 1920 you referred to occured before Samuel became Governor, the British Army under Allanby were still in control. Those riots (unprovoked attacks on Jews by Arabs) were instigated by al-Husseini in order to secure his appointment. The Al-Husseini "clan" was the most numerous/powerful in Palestine, note CarolC in Palestine, not in Jerusalem where the votes were cast. In the aftermath of the riots in 1920, al-Husseini put himself forward as the only candidate capable of controlling the Arab population and keeping the peace. That piece of "bullshit" the newly arrived Governor, Herbert Samuel, bought into, and that is what secured Al-Husseini the position.

I've seen a lot of explanations for Samuel's decision (nobody seems to really know, since all of the sources I've seen, including quite a few pro-Zionist ones, have entirely different explanations for his decision). Yours is very creative, I must admit, but it carries no more weight than any other explanation. But even if it was merely a stupid decision on Samuel's part, he is still the one who is responsible for Haj Amin's reign of terror. My own opinion is that his decision fits the pattern of behavior of the Zionist leadership - fomenting violence for the purpose of promoting their agenda.


I note in this thread up until now, the Palestinian advocates only refer to incidents since 1948, while they conveniently forget completely the events of the period 1920 to 1948. Without repeated acts of unprovoked violence visited upon their communities by the Arab population of Palestine during that period, Jewish organisations such as Haganah, Irgun and Stern Gang would never have existed, there would have been no need for them.

One of the things that happened prior to 1948 was Zionist murders of anti-Zionist Jews. That's something that people like you conveniently overlook as well. I guess it's ok to kill Jews if they don't support the Zionist party line.

Yes, there were riots. Non-Jewish Palestinians were being displaced, both physically and economically by the European settlers, and they were not at all happy about it. You may not consider displacing a people a provocation, but most of the rest of the people in the world do consider it a provocation.


On the "Right of Return" take a good look at who qualifies as a refugee, and then tell me why that definition is totally unacceptable.

First you tell me who qualifies for Jewish "Right of Return".

Subject: RE: BS: Palestinian 'facts'
From: GUEST
Date: 23 May 08 - 02:40 AM

Albert,
What is true is the fact that for much of pre zionist history the minority Jewish population of Palestine enjoyed reasonable relations with their christian and muslim Palestinian neighbours.The communities had been rubbing along together for many generations.
The coming of a European Zionist ideology and colonial settlers intent on creating a Zionist state in this sensitive land was bound to create massive inter communal and inter religious conflict ...and it did.
The founding of the state of Israel at the expense of the majority Palestinian population was done with the connivance of the great western powers who had done so little to help Jewish refugees from the Holocaust.
The solution they arrived at was to create a catastrophe for the Palestinian people who have been oppressed,attacked and brutalised ever since.....but this solution has created a deadend for Israel where the most hawkish thuggish and right wing Zionists have state recognition and indeed support.And all the time this state has been armed and economically supported by the most powerful nation in the world .
Albert

Subject: RE: BS: Palestinian 'facts'
From: CarolC
Date: 23 May 08 - 03:04 AM

LOL

One source I've just been looking at, a pro-Zionist Jewish source, is saying that it's all the fault of the British. They're saying that a couple of high ranking members of the British military and intelligence services instructed Haj Amin to instigate riots and and to commit violence on Jews, telling him that freedom could only be attained through violence, and that if he did that, the British would advocate the abandonment of the Jewish home. This source is saying that after instructing Haj Amin to do this, the British then withdrew their forces as well as the Jewish Police from Jerusalem so that he could instigate the riots unimpeded.

What do you think, Teribus? Shall we place all of the blame on the British instead of on the Palestinians and the Zionists?

Subject: RE: BS: Palestinian 'facts'
From: Peace
Date: 23 May 08 - 09:51 AM

"And all the time this state has been armed and economically supported by the most powerful nation in the world ."

Good thing for Jewish people, because without that support they would have been subject to a second holocaust.

Palestinians are supported also by very oil-rich nations in the Middle East. Lest we forget.

I have the impression that "Guest Albert" is so narrow minded on this issue that his sctarch pads are about 1/4" wide. Wake up fer krissake.

Subject: RE: BS: Palestinian 'facts'
From: Peace
Date: 23 May 08 - 10:00 AM

'But of course in another thread on this subject, you said that those riots never occured, you said that Arabs never attacked the Jews in 1920. Was that something else you found in the "webfairy" site.;

I gave up reading her posts about ten back. Too much fiction in with the facts. It's called cherry picking.

Subject: RE: BS: Palestinian 'facts'
From: Peace
Date: 23 May 08 - 10:03 AM

Anybody read about Nicky Reilly? Exeter? Or should that too be kept quiet--in the name of being nice to groups like Hezbollah. Just one more straw in the wind. Such reasonable people these 'freedom fighters'.

Subject: RE: BS: Palestinian 'facts'
From: Peace
Date: 23 May 08 - 10:06 AM

Mohammed Rasheed--that's his new name. BTW, I expect that somehow Israelis will be blamed for this, too. What's new?

Subject: RE: BS: Palestinian 'facts'
From: pdq
Date: 23 May 08 - 10:20 AM

To blame the evil actions of a leader on people who supported him in power is wrong and simplistic.

Each person is responsible for his or her own actions. Period.

Suddam Hussein was responsible for the deaths of 1.4 million people and he was solely responsible.

Pol Pot is also credited with the slaughter of 1.4 million people. The man was a monster. Nobody else can be blamed.

If al-Husseini as Grand Mufti of Jerusalem organized the systmatic murder of Jews it is he who bears the blame and not the British, the Jews, Mr Samuel nor Spot the Wonder Dog.

Subject: RE: BS: Palestinian 'facts'
From: GUEST,albert
Date: 23 May 08 - 11:47 AM

Reply to Peace...
I am not narrow minded on the issue of the oppression of the Palestinian people.I support their struggle and along with millions of others across the world I would like to see the oppression end.
I want to see an end to the indiscriminate shelling and bombing of Gazan citizens and the hundreds of its children who have been killed or maimed in recent years.
I want to see an end to the Israeli death squads roaming across the occupied West Bank murdering Palestinians.
I want to see an end to the Israeli land grab of Jerusalem and the West Bank.
And I want to see the Israeli military which has been bullying and swaggering across the Middle East for decades defeated.For too long it has been using cluster bombs,high exposives and apache gunships against civilians.
It destroyed Beirut and last year revisited Lebanon with its usual cluster bomb calling card.
And I believe that the Palestinians have the right to self defence against one of the most powerful military machines in the world.
Albert

Subject: RE: BS: Palestinian 'facts'
From: CarolC
Date: 23 May 08 - 04:25 PM

I gave up reading her posts about ten back. Too much fiction in with the facts. It's called cherry picking.

snipe snipe snipe.

But that's what people do when they've got nothing of substance to offer themselves. Especially when they are trying to defend the indefensible, and the only "facts" they have to work with are collective myth.

Subject: RE: BS: Palestinian 'facts'
From: CarolC
Date: 23 May 08 - 04:27 PM

If al-Husseini as Grand Mufti of Jerusalem organized the systmatic murder of Jews it is he who bears the blame and not the British, the Jews, Mr Samuel nor Spot the Wonder Dog.

Well that's nice to know. I'll quote you on that in the future.

Subject: RE: BS: Palestinian 'facts'
From: GUEST,Arnie
Date: 23 May 08 - 10:13 PM

"There can only be a one state solution some time in the future and any Zionist who cannot accept that should return to New York or some other place but there will be no room in the new state for their thuggery and armed swaggering!"
MM - I suppose if Israel was weak enough to lose just one of those crucial wars and the Zionists and Jews were all killed or driven back out to New York or back to Poland, you'd be quite happy right now.
I thought you were gonna say that Jews or Zionists should go to Madacascar or Grand Island New York something. I've got news for you Albert. Jews we were taught that Israel was to be a place that was were given by God as part of a heritage forever, an everlasting covenant - to be settled in and to serve God for the benefit of humanity. Jewish people have believed this for thousands of years. To be Jewish is to be a Zionist in some form - it is the essence of the religion, so to try to make Zionism into some kind of evilism just won't do you any good. To be Jewish is to believe in Israel as a nation with Jerusalem at it's core - one place at least where a Jew might live and prosper without being annihilated- but even that prospect is now difficult to fathom. It may be possible to arrange to live in peace together with any other peace loving religion or peace loving neighbor. It's a matter of will. A one state solution? There is - it is called Israel- and it's here to stay for quite some time, although many Jew haters are trying to change that. The other state has yet to be realized- and hopefully it will exist in peace and prosperity with it's neighbors soon.

Subject: RE: BS: Palestinian 'facts'
From: Peace
Date: 23 May 08 - 10:15 PM

Good one, Arnie.

Subject: RE: BS: Palestinian 'facts'
From: CarolC
Date: 23 May 08 - 11:45 PM

There is - it is called Israel- and it's here to stay for quite some time, although many Jew haters are trying to change that. The other state has yet to be realized- and hopefully it will exist in peace and prosperity with it's neighbors soon..

Out of curiosity, Arnie, do you consider the West Bank, Gaza, and East Jerusalem to be part of Israel?

Subject: RE: BS: Palestinian 'facts'
From: Peace
Date: 23 May 08 - 11:47 PM

Good one, Arnie.

Subject: RE: BS: Palestinian 'facts'
From: GUEST,albert
Date: 24 May 08 - 06:40 AM

There are many Jewish people who are well and truely sickened by what the Zionist have done and are doing ....from the indiscriminate bombing of residential blocks in Gaza to the destruction of some 15000 homes in Lebanon ,the slaughtering of hundreds of Palestinian children in Gaza to the brazen theft of Palestinian land in the West Bank and elsewhere......and all in God's name??
Of course the Jewish people who are opposed to these vicious ,brutalising policies then get harassed by Zionists and called self hating. And there are many Jews in Israel who are opposed to what the Zionists are doing.I saw a video clip recently of a group of orthodox Jews being beaten up by Zionist thugs in a synagogue.
As for the claim that Israel is a place where Jews "might live and prosper" think again.
It is one of the most violent societies in the world.It is a country of fear and insecurity.It is an apartheid like place where a colonial regime ,corrupt to the core, has to oppress,terrorise ,kill,expel or imprison those who have lived on its land for many generations.
albert

Subject: RE: BS: Palestinian 'facts'
From: GUEST
Date: 24 May 08 - 07:46 AM

"Out of curiosity, Arnie, do you consider the West Bank, Gaza, and East Jerusalem to be part of Israel?"
Gaza is not part as Israel and is ruled by Jihadist militant forces bent on Israel's destruction as it's political platform- not exactly the peace Palestinians can negotiate with any time soon. They seem to still think that indiscriminate rockets and suicide killing will bring Israel to their knees. This kind of policy is very dangerous for all the decent Palestinian civilians who want a real life ( not to mention the victims of these tactics on the Israeli side - but I noticed you didn't mention those Albert) The other areas are up for negotiations - so we'll see.
"It is one of the most violent societies in the world" - Tell me what civilized countries allow militant armed factions to exist and roam freely reaking havoc on their neighbors? Israelis live in fear - yes because of being surrounded by those bent on it's destruction, not because of Zionist thugs- give me a break. Albert - you could get easily get a job in Iran's propaganda dept against the Zionist Entity. There are Jews who aren't happy with Israeli policies - but don't go on as if it were a worldwide movement or something. I think you'll find most Jews are supportive of the Israeli government and the Israeli State and wish it to negotiate peace in good faith. Israel is a civilized democracy - you make it sound like a fascist regime with thugs at every corner.

Subject: RE: BS: Palestinian 'facts'
From: GUEST,Arnie
Date: 24 May 08 - 07:47 AM

Whoops - that last post was from me.

Subject: RE: BS: Palestinian 'facts'
From: CarolC
Date: 24 May 08 - 02:32 PM

Gaza is not part as Israel and is ruled by Jihadist militant forces bent on Israel's destruction as it's political platform- not exactly the peace Palestinians can negotiate with any time soon. They seem to still think that indiscriminate rockets and suicide killing will bring Israel to their knees. This kind of policy is very dangerous for all the decent Palestinian civilians who want a real life The other areas are up for negotiations - so we'll see.

Israel has turned Gaza into a huge outdoor prison camp, which it is slowly starving, so it shouldn't surprise anyone if the Gazans act like they don't like it. Israel's only alternatives with regard to Gaza are to leave it alone so the Gazans can get on with life, transfer all of the Palestinians elsewhere, continue to put up with the rocket attacks, or kill all of the people in Gaza. It looks like Israel has chosen the last alternative.

On the subject of the West Bank and East Jerusalem, how do you feel about the idea of Israel withdrawing to the pre-1967 borders?

Subject: RE: BS: Palestinian 'facts'
From: GUEST,from albert
Date: 24 May 08 - 02:39 PM

I don't say that Israel is a fascist type country. That must be some kind of insecurity that Zionists get when they are criticised.
However ,Israel does remind me of apartheid era South Africa with many of its racist and vicious features.

And of course the Zionists know a great deal about armed factions and many Palestinians were the victims of the Zionist Stern gang which went to work with bomb and machine gun and knife when the Palestinians were driven out of their homes and expelled from their country.

Of course the Palestiniansd want a decent life.....at present it is a life that the Israeli state and the Zionists who control it are not prepared to allow.

This means that a Palestinian and her children and grandchildren are barred from returning to their homeland by Israeli law.In contrast a Jewish person from anywhere in the world has the legal right to enter Israel permenantly.

It also means that the illegal occupation of the West Bank is now the world'ds longest occupation of one land by a foreign power.And the Israeli can only maintain that occupation by intolerable methods which are against international law and any law of human decency. So we have the mass demolition of Palestinian houses,the theft of Palestinian farmland,the imprisonment of huge numbers of Palestinians on the West Bank [the majority of Palestinian males have been hauled off to Israeli jails ], attacks on Palestinian refugee camps like Jenin, the assassination of Palestinians by Israeli death squads, the building of the monstrous apartheid wall which snakes its way through Palestinian land for hundreds of miles, the siting of hundreds of checkpoints which cause huge delays for Palestinians who may only need to travel a few miles, the grubbing up of Palestinian olive groves,the closure of Palestinian schools and universities and countless other forms of daily humiliations meted out by the Israeli state to the Palestinian people.

If the Israeli people wish to negotiate in good faith they have a poor way of showing it as they do a good job in electing aggressive right wing and corrupt governments on a regular basis. Why I seem to recall that the old "Butcher of Beirut" himself, Ariel Sharon ,became leader of the Israeli government and did his utmost to further provoke the Palestinians with his "walkabout" at the muslim mosque in Jerusalem ....a walkabout which involved him being guarded by around 1000 armed guards.
And we have also seen the kind of "real life " being dished out to the Palestinian Gazans by the Israeli state.It has waged war on civilians including women and children for over a year.It has blockaded Gaza by air,land and sea.Its warship has blown up picnicers on the beach, it has rained down missiles on crowded streets and apartment blocks.It has blown up journalists and news cameramen.It has cut off power to hospitals and homes alike.

Yup, Gaza has tasted the Israeli military's version of "real life"...and it might not be fascism but it is brutal, venal and corrupting.
albert

Subject: RE: BS: Palestinian 'facts'
From: Peace
Date: 24 May 08 - 02:40 PM

"or kill all of the people in Gaza. It looks like Israel has chosen the last alternative."

What bullshit you speak.

Subject: RE: BS: Palestinian 'facts'
From: robomatic
Date: 24 May 08 - 02:41 PM

Interesting thread. In all the to-ing and fro-ing about the Palestinians has anyone bothered to remember the roughly 4,000,000 Palestinians of Jewish descent who have managed to strive and thrive and maintain the freest, most democratic State in the entire Mideast for SIXTY YEARS?

Happy birthday Israel!

I'm enjoying both sides of the contention because of the well spoken-ness of both sides.

Subject: RE: BS: Palestinian 'facts'
From: CarolC
Date: 24 May 08 - 02:47 PM

What bullshit you speak.

If you think it is bullshit, that means you either think it will follow one of the other alternatives, or you can see an alternative that I have not listed.

If it is the former, which alternative do you think they're going to go with. If it's the latter, what alternative do you see that I have not listed?


Interesting thread. In all the to-ing and fro-ing about the Palestinians has anyone bothered to remember the roughly 4,000,000 Palestinians of Jewish descent who have managed to strive and thrive and maintain the freest, most democratic State in the entire Mideast for SIXTY YEARS?

Did you know that the number of people emigrating from Israel has exceeded the number immigrating to it for the first time recently?

Subject: RE: BS: Palestinian 'facts'
From: robomatic
Date: 24 May 08 - 02:53 PM

Carol you wrote:
Did you know that the number of people emigrating from Israel has exceeded the number immigrating to it for the first time recently?

I've met many Israelis AND Palestinians from Israel, with immigration rates ranging quite heavily due, I've been told, more for economic reasons/ incentives than anything else. It has varied over the years and reminds me of the number of Irish Irish that have shown up in Boston in my living memory.

So if you've got a point to make, why not flesh it out somewhat so we can see whether it's got meat on its bones.

Subject: RE: BS: Palestinian 'facts'
From: CarolC
Date: 24 May 08 - 03:06 PM

I've met many Israelis AND Palestinians from Israel, with immigration rates ranging quite heavily due, I've been told, more for economic reasons/ incentives than anything else. It has varied over the years and reminds me of the number of Irish Irish that have shown up in Boston in my living memory.

So if you've got a point to make, why not flesh it out somewhat so we can see whether it's got meat on its bones.

I don't disagree with what you've said about the reasons they are going. But the fact that they are going means that they don't consider Israel to be the best place for them. If they're leaving for economic reasons, that means that Israel isn't really thriving the way you suggested in your first post. My own opinion is that the occupation is not just hurting the Palestinians in occupied Palestine. I think it is also hurting Israel, but that it just takes a lot longer for this to become obvious in Israel than it does in occupied Palestine.

Subject: RE: BS: Palestinian 'facts'
From: GUEST,albert
Date: 24 May 08 - 03:31 PM

And by the way when will Mordechai Vanunu ,who renounced his Israeli citizenship years ago, be permitted to leave nuclear armed Israel.He has been offered refuge in Denmark but has been refused permission to leave depite threats to his life in Israel.
albert

Subject: RE: BS: Palestinian 'facts'
From: John on the Sunset Coast
Date: 24 May 08 - 04:31 PM

I am tired of the glorification of Mordechai Vanunu by the anti-Israel crowd here. If Mr. Vanunu had been a member of Hamas who betrayed that organization he would have been hanged or shot by firing squad, or had his throat slit without trial. If he had been a traitor to Iran, he would have been shot or hanged. If he had passed US nuclear secrets to Russia, he would have been electrocuted.

That traitorous bastard is lucky he lives in a country that does not have the death penalty. He served prison time for a mere 18 years, not even the life imprisonment his crime merited. He is now under a deservedly strict parole.

Do I hear your plea to release the Israeli soldiers kidnapped from their posts by Hezbollah? I don't! Maybe my hearing is not so good anymore. Naaah, it is the deafening silence.

Subject: RE: BS: Palestinian 'facts'
From: Peace
Date: 24 May 08 - 04:36 PM

These anti-Israel folks do NOT care about humans. Only those they think are human. And from their posts, it's obvious they think Jews are not worthy of the same consideration they feel the Palestinians should have. Will they speak against Hezbollah or Hamas? NO! For to do so would not be in their game plan because they would then have to admit that the people representing the Palestinian people are fu#king murderers. If I knew how to do the spit word in writing, it would go here.

Subject: RE: BS: Palestinian 'facts'
From: GUEST,Arnie
Date: 24 May 08 - 05:13 PM

"This means that a Palestinian and her children and grandchildren are barred from returning to their homeland by Israeli law.In contrast a Jewish person from anywhere in the world has the legal right to enter Israel permenantly"

The one most important thing Jews learned from the Holocaust is the importance of having somewhere to go unconditionally when the rest of the world doesn't care to save you. If 6 million could have gone to Israel there would be a few more around to argue this point with Albert.

"did his utmost to further provoke the Palestinians with his "walkabout" at the muslim mosque in Jerusalem ....a walkabout which involved him being guarded by around 1000 armed guards."

Sharon needed guards- because Arab nutcases would have torn him apart for walking around- an impeccable example of freedom of expression. - good reason for sending suicide bombers around Israel?

"or kill all of the people in Gaza. It looks like Israel has chosen the last alternative."
Gazans had an opportunity to normalize relations with Israel upon disengagement from Gaza. Instead they chose Hamas which promotes Israel's destruction. Now common sense tells me that Israel shouldn't be helping Gazans economically in any way until the agenda changes to a peaceful one where commercial relations can even exist. Hamas believes Israel left Gaza because their terror tactics work, so they are promoting them. I don't know about you but, I wouldn't give bread, medicine, electricity, water to my nextdoor neighbor who wanted to come into my house and seek Martyrdom for their cause. If they discover the agenda not quite working in Gaza, there is an opportunity to change it, but they have no will to do that. They are in effect at war- and bad and good people die in war.

Subject: RE: BS: Palestinian 'facts'
From: CarolC
Date: 24 May 08 - 05:29 PM

These anti-Israel folks do NOT care about humans. Only those they think are human. And from their posts, it's obvious they think Jews are not worthy of the same consideration they feel the Palestinians should have.

If they got the same consideration as the Palestinians have, there would be tens of thousands of them in prison without any charges and without any access to any kind of justice at all.

I guess you only define "human being" as Jews and non-Jews of European origin (I say of "European origin" because I haven't heard a peep out of you or anyone else about Israel's horrendous treatment of Jews who are not of European origin). But that's ok. They're only brown skinned people and not really human after all, right?

Subject: RE: BS: Palestinian 'facts'
From: CarolC
Date: 24 May 08 - 05:30 PM

Gazans had an opportunity to normalize relations with Israel upon disengagement from Gaza. Instead they chose Hamas which promotes Israel's destruction.

Israel was already blockading Gaza before Hamas was elected.

Subject: RE: BS: Palestinian 'facts'
From: John on the Sunset Coast
Date: 24 May 08 - 06:06 PM

Guest, whoever you are, President Carter was a bad president, and is a worse ex-president. But his ideas fit right in with the usual crowd here. I do exempt from that comment his efforts to bring peace between Egypt and Israel...his one achievement.

CarolC, why is it when you run out of cogent argument you resort to race baiting? I believe you are about the only one here who does. Perhaps you project your bias against white, European Jews on the rest of us? Of course Israel's supporters would love to get rid of those brown-skin Yemenite Jews, and North African Jews, or those black-skin Ethiopian Jews. They're just not Nordic enough for the rest of us. Barf!

Subject: RE: BS: Palestinian 'facts'
From: Peace
Date: 24 May 08 - 07:50 PM

Bingo.

Subject: RE: BS: Palestinian 'facts'
From: CarolC
Date: 24 May 08 - 09:09 PM

CarolC, why is it when you run out of cogent argument you resort to race baiting? I believe you are about the only one here who does. Perhaps you project your bias against white, European Jews on the rest of us? Of course Israel's supporters would love to get rid of those brown-skin Yemenite Jews, and North African Jews, or those black-skin Ethiopian Jews. They're just not Nordic enough for the rest of us. Barf!

The Israeli leadership and the Zionist leadership have a racist, supremacist ideology and racist, supremacist practices. Their treatment of the Palestinians as well as the treatment of the non-European Jews are proof enough of this.

My question to you is this - why do you only condemn bad things that are done to European Jews by people other than the Isreli leadership, but not to non-European Jews by the Israeli leadership?

Subject: RE: BS: Palestinian 'facts'
From: John on the Sunset Coast
Date: 24 May 08 - 09:14 PM

Whack-a-Mole!!!!!

Subject: RE: BS: Palestinian 'facts'
From: CarolC
Date: 24 May 08 - 09:36 PM

In answer to your question... it's not race baiting. It's pointing out the gross hypocrisy of people like Peace (and apparently, you) who go around calling other people Jew haters, while turning a blind eye to the treatment of some Jews by the government that you and he are defending.


It's all in the way we categorize and group people. I categorize and group them in these terms...

Category - Human beings:

People of all religions, and of no religion, and people of all "races" and "ethnic groups".


Sub categories:


Ethical people -

Those who recognize the humanity and equal rights of all groups.

This group includes members of all religious and ethnic groups, but it does not include members of the governments of some countries, including that of Israel.


Unethical people -

Those who do not recognize the humanity and equal rights of all groups.

This group also includes members of all religions and ethnic groups, particularly the governments of some countries, including that of Israel.


You and Peace seem to group people differently. You appear to have a category of people who are above any kind of criticism no matter what they do, and how badly they treat their fellow human beings, and groups who are not entitled to be defended by anyone under any circumstances. This is supremacism.

It's you and Peace who are the racists. Not the people who are working to help the Palestinians get their human rights and their freedom.

Subject: RE: BS: Palestinian 'facts'
From: Sandy Mc Lean
Date: 24 May 08 - 09:40 PM

I am not an athiest but I find myself to be more agnostic all the time, when I see what is being done in the name of religion. Love and tolerance are not embraced by many, but those who are the most intollerent are the first to cry discrimination. Organized religion has much to answer for be it Muslim, Christian or Jew! It is time to bury the hatchet and if necessary, bury Christ, King David and Muhammad as well for the betterment of us all!

Subject: RE: BS: Palestinian 'facts'
From: CarolC
Date: 24 May 08 - 09:43 PM

By the way, if pointing out the racism inherent in Peace's and John on the Sunset Coast's positions is "race baiting", then so is calling people "Jew haters".

Subject: RE: BS: Palestinian 'facts'
From: John on the Sunset Coast
Date: 24 May 08 - 10:01 PM

CarolC, you are a liar and a libeler! I have never called anyone a 'Jew hater' in the course of these discussions. And while I speak only for myself, I don't believe Peace has either.

As I previously said, you are, as far as I can tell, the about only poster who has injected race into the discussion.

At any rate, as far as I'm concerned--based on your last posts--you are of as little consequence as my toe nail parings in your discussion here.