BS: whats wrong with ukip [UK Independence Party]

Subject: BS: whats wrong with ukip
From: jeddy
Date: 21 May 09 - 06:23 PM

i only know of the unlimited immigration policy that sounds a bit dodgy is there anything else i should consider before making my mind up about voting for them?
allowing this great country to make it's own laws sound very sensible to me, am i being naive and manipulated?

Subject: RE: BS: whats wrong with ukip
From: open mike
Date: 21 May 09 - 06:27 PM

what is ukip
which great country are you talking about?

Subject: RE: BS: whats wrong with ukip
From: jeddy
Date: 21 May 09 - 06:40 PM

soory i forgot thatwe are not all in the same country. u.k.independence party. england. the question sounded reasonable in my head it just doesn't come across in print very well

Subject: RE: BS: whats wrong with ukip
From: Paul Burke
Date: 21 May 09 - 06:46 PM

UKIP- a right wing English (I don't think they have much appeal in Scotland or Wales) party- mainly they are anti- European Union, but they've managed to keep the image of snalltime whingers. They are rather indiscriminate - one or two of their election candidates have turned out to be ex-BNP or worse. But mainly they are just lost causes. Their policies read fairly well in an infraThatchertite sort of way, but they are clean like religious groups who have never had power- they've never had the chance to bring in the inquisition.

Subject: RE: BS: whats wrong with ukip
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 21 May 09 - 06:50 PM

If it's dodgy politicians you are worried about, and you want to make a protest vote against all the main parties, UKIP may be not the best place to put your vote. UKIP does not have a very good record on that score.

Last time in 2004, 12 UKIP candidates were elected to the European Parliament. One of them, Ashley Mote, was sent to prison in 2007 for benefit fraud. Another, Tom Wise, is currently on bail facing charges of alleged expenses fraud and money laundering.

Of course there are worse among the 342 registered political parties in Great Britain as of May 14 2009 ( and another 51 in Northern Ireland (see here for a Wikipedia list), most especially the BNP. But there are better as well.

Subject: RE: BS: whats wrong with ukip
From: jeddy
Date: 21 May 09 - 07:55 PM

so if i'm looking for a clean party, that has polcies i can stomach who would you suggest? i can't vote green coz they want to charge even more car,road and fuel tax than i pay now,how would any of us afford festivals then? i know we wouldn't so who does that leave? buggered if i know

Subject: RE: BS: whats wrong with ukip
From: Cats
Date: 22 May 09 - 12:41 AM

In the west country UKIP has agreed that if BNP are standing in a constituency they will not put a candidate up against them and vice versa. So, a clean party? Ideals are spoiled by the fact that they are implemented by humans and humans all have weaknesses. Go for a best fit, but read all the small print, don't just go by sound bites.

Subject: RE: BS: whats wrong with ukip
From: Teribus
Date: 22 May 09 - 01:45 AM

"UKIP does not have a very good record on that score.

Last time in 2004, 12 UKIP candidates were elected to the European Parliament. One of them, Ashley Mote, was sent to prison in 2007 for benefit fraud. Another, Tom Wise, is currently on bail facing charges of alleged expenses fraud and money laundering." - MGOH

A well Kevin, if one has been imprisoned for benefits fraud and another is facing charges for "alleged expenses fraud" then my guess is that the latter will get off, otherwise it might set a dangerous precedent for members of the main UK political parties currently esconced in Westminster with their noses firmly wedged in the trough.

Subject: RE: BS: whats wrong with ukip
From: SPB-Cooperator
Date: 22 May 09 - 07:05 AM

Looks like it only leaves the monster raving loony party ;)

Subject: RE: BS: whats wrong with ukip
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 22 May 09 - 07:48 AM

Respect?

Socialist Labour Party?

Subject: RE: BS: whats wrong with ukip
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 22 May 09 - 08:23 AM

I have gone and had a rummage about the candidates.

No Respect candidates. No Monster Raving Loonies.

And what a bunch of loonies most of the rest seem to be, too!

The choice seems to be Green or SLP, and if I get some bumf on the SLP my mind is mulling on that...

Subject: RE: BS: whats wrong with ukip
From: Lox
Date: 22 May 09 - 08:39 AM

I'll be voting lib dem.

I think they are an honourable bunch.

UKIP are a 1 issue party.

Rather than looking at the UKs problems and developing a wide perspective to cope with the wide range of issues in UK politics and understanding that politics has many conflicting ingredients, UKIP have built a party around the point of view that Europe is bad for the UK.

Europe is but one issue in a massive array of issues that any govenment need to have a mature practical and human angle on.

UKIP don't actually care about those other issues except in the context of their Anti european stance.

I personally would like to see clegg have a turn.

Reasons for and against are at least to do with how the liberals would govern and not to do with whether foreigners are a problem, which is a distraction from real politics.

Subject: RE: BS: whats wrong with ukip
From: Steve Hunt
Date: 22 May 09 - 08:47 AM

UKIP = BNP in tweeds!

Subject: RE: BS: whats wrong with ukip
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 22 May 09 - 09:37 AM

What Lox said.

Subject: RE: BS: whats wrong with ukip
From: Mrs.Duck
Date: 22 May 09 - 01:13 PM

They are Nazis!

Subject: RE: BS: whats wrong with ukip
From: jeddy
Date: 22 May 09 - 03:03 PM

thanks guys i think you have stopped me making a huge mistake.lib dem leaflet came today so i will be checking them out

Subject: RE: BS: whats wrong with ukip
From: Jim McLean
Date: 22 May 09 - 03:54 PM

There are other parties out side England, the SNP in Scotland, Plaid Cymru in Wales.

Subject: RE: BS: whats wrong with ukip
From: bubblyrat
Date: 22 May 09 - 04:05 PM

Do you know what a Nazi really is,Mrs Duck ?? I very much doubt it !!
   Shalom !

Subject: RE: BS: whats wrong with ukip
From: GUEST,Scopes
Date: 22 May 09 - 04:10 PM

Heard one on television the other evening. He made a lot of sense, I can see them doing well.

Subject: RE: BS: whats wrong with ukip
From: jeddy
Date: 22 May 09 - 05:56 PM

SCOPES, i can't work out if you are on a wind up mission or if you are for real. i hope that it's just a wind up. i think that you have some serious problems if you think the bnp that you seem to love aren't giong to come after you when they have run out of easy targets. i know we were on about ukip but our FRIEND here is a bnp supporter.
something tells me you are not going to be very popular on this site!
it might not sound very british but i live in england and would like laws that are made for us by us. this isn't anti anything i am just very into self government. some chance that we can pull it off though eh?

Subject: RE: BS: whats wrong with ukip
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 22 May 09 - 06:17 PM

OMG, his political information comes from one hearing on tv!

Subject: RE: BS: whats wrong with ukip
From: jeddy
Date: 22 May 09 - 06:26 PM

bless him, i think he's had enough. watching tv isn't a bad way of getting info, you just have to watch the grown up channels not the cartoon network!

Subject: RE: BS: whats wrong with ukip
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 22 May 09 - 07:24 PM

Here's a site listing all the candidates and all the parties in the Euro elections.

Subject: RE: BS: whats wrong with ukip
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 23 May 09 - 03:00 AM

What there isn't there (or wasn't, when I last looked) was even the names of some of the loopier parties. It took me some time googling to find some of them. I still haven't found out what one listed party wants. Quite a lot of them are specifically anti-EU shading into narrow nationalism and worse.

Subject: RE: BS: whats wrong with ukip [UK Independence Party]
From: Lox
Date: 23 May 09 - 06:57 AM

The more nationalist parties competing with each other for the xenophopic vote the better.

They can keep each other out of office as long as they like.

Subject: RE: BS: whats wrong with ukip [UK Independence Party]
From: Mrs.Duck
Date: 23 May 09 - 10:37 AM

Yes Bubblyrat, I know exactly what a Nazi is and stand by what I said!

Subject: RE: BS: whats wrong with ukip [UK Independence Party]
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 23 May 09 - 12:56 PM

I suggest that Bubblyrat's juxtaposition of his question ("Do you know what a Nazi is") with the word "Shalom" was rather tasteless, and might leave one wondering where he stood on all sorts of things.

Subject: RE: BS: whats wrong with ukip [UK Independence Party]
From: Don(Wyziwyg)T
Date: 23 May 09 - 01:39 PM

What's wrong with using a little common sense, and sticking with the devil you know? Whichever devil you would have voted for, if the expenses row had never happened. I suggest this for what seem to me to be sensible and practical reasons.

1.You will either be voting for an MP who was mildly out of order, an MP who was innocent of any wrongdoing, or the REPLACEMENT for an MP whose misdemeanour was serious enough that he/she had to resign, or was prosecuted.
All candidates will fall into one of these three categories.

2. Whichever category your candidate inhabits, he/she will certainly NOT be repeating the actions of the guilty MPs of the past. New rules, and independent professional and public scrutiny, will take care of that.

3. If your candidate was one of the many innocents, named by the Telegraph and ignored by TV news to their eternal shame, you have NO reason to change. If he/she was one of the mild cases the old adage might apply (to err is human, to forgive, devine), and the replacements for the genuinely evil would not, by definition, be a problem.

4. To pursue that course would be to deny extremists of every stamp the opportunity to gain a toehold in the corridors of power.
If we do not take action to avoid that, we will assuredly regret, and suffer for it in the future.

Don T.

Subject: RE: BS: whats wrong with ukip [UK Independence Party]
From: Don(Wyziwyg)T
Date: 23 May 09 - 01:43 PM

Incidentally, the LibDems were as bad, relative to their numbers as the Tories, and New Labour.

Don T.

Subject: RE: BS: whats wrong with ukip [UK Independence Party]
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 23 May 09 - 03:28 PM

The problem in Medway Don is that we are losing the rather fine Marshall-Andrews (even if his second home claim was a bit on the high side), one of the "usual suspects" who made B.Liar's life very tricky for an unknown quantity. I think Bob had a substantial personal vote. When you think about some of the conservative pillocks (or pillocklesses, like Fenner) near here the change alarms me - but that of course is for the next general erection (or cock-up).

Now, if you look at the sheet we are faced with: -

1. I could stay Labour - but the incumbent has not endeared himself to me, and he was no use at all on culture and licensing (culture has an European aspect to its remit, and most of Europe has support packages for folk arts).
2. I could go Green. The present woman has done a fine job. Anyone the COmmission hates cannot be all bad.
3. I could go SLP. I am a big fan of Scargill, even if Thatcher did outmanoeuvre him over the coal strike. His principled stand on the sequestrations was admirable. His opposition to the capitalistic aspects (even groundswell) of th EU strongly attracts me - but will it be a wasted vote as far as keeping the Sieg Heil brigade out?
4. There is no Respect or Communist candidate.
5. The rest are less use than the Monster Raving Loony Party, which is not standing. Some even appear to be God botherers.

Subject: RE: BS: whats wrong with ukip [UK Independence Party]
From: Don(Wyziwyg)T
Date: 23 May 09 - 03:43 PM

I agree with you about Bob Marshall-Andrews. He was, as far as I am concerned, one of those I referred to as mildly guilty, and should not be going.

He was generally one of the most principled of politicians, and a man even a Tory could admire, as in fact I did.

However, his leaving should mean a new candidate to vote for. What of him/her? Or is there NO replacement?

Don T.

Subject: RE: BS: whats wrong with ukip [UK Independence Party]
From: jeddy
Date: 23 May 09 - 03:46 PM

so basically we are torn between wasting my vote but making a point with the slp, or sticking with the usual. so far the slp are winning in my mind, but haven't actually checked any of them out YET. maybe coz i'm too busy reading the threads on here and having a good old rant.

i will get round to it, i must!!!

Subject: RE: BS: whats wrong with ukip [UK Independence Par
From: SPB-Cooperator
Date: 23 May 09 - 05:33 PM

The thing to remember about about the European is not so much a matter of voting on domestic issues, but which block the Euro-Mps will be aligned with: the two main blocks tend be to Socialist (centre-left) and Christian democrat (centre-right), with the far left and far right factions.

From my understanding, their key role is to scrutinise the Council of Ministers - the leaders of the member nations who male policy.

So your decision when you vote should be which block within the EU most closely matches your viewpoint, and vote for the party that represents this.

Subject: RE: BS: whats wrong with ukip [UK Independence Party]
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 23 May 09 - 06:10 PM

"What there isn't there (or wasn't, when I last looked) was even the names of some of the loopier parties."

The BBC list of parties has a link saying Guide to party abbreviations, just above the list of candidates. Or click it here.

Mind you'd still have to hunt around on the net to find what some of them actually are, because all you get there are the party names, and some of them aren't too obvious.

Subject: RE: BS: whats wrong with ukip [UK Independence Party]
From: DMcG
Date: 24 May 09 - 04:18 AM

He was generally one of the most principled of politicians, and a man even a Tory could admire, as in fact I did.

However, his leaving should mean a new candidate to vote for. What of him/her? Or is there NO replacement?


An excellent question, but the answer may well be no. While I have generally voted for one party I have voted for others where their candidate has seemed to me to be particularly principled and effective, or where the alternative seemed to believe his main duty was to follow the party line. For example, one MP we had had a 100% voting agreement in accordance the party view with a single exception on a highly local issue. That to me said I might as well have elected a rubber stamp, as it didn't demonstrate any critical thought at all.

In the case of the remarkable Bob Marshall-Andrews, he was one of that select group present in all parties, who are essentially independent but with a foundation aligned to a party. Putting a Rubber Stamp Party Member there instead is certainly not a replacement.

Subject: RE: BS: whats wrong with ukip [UK Independence Party]
From: Don(Wyziwyg)T
Date: 24 May 09 - 04:27 PM

I take your point DMcG, but do we yet know that the replacement WILL BE a rubber stamp, and if so, a rubber stamp for whom?

Also, even a New Labour yes man would be more acceptable to me than a member of the British Nazi Party, and I'm a committed TORY.

Don T.

Subject: RE: BS: whats wrong with ukip [UK Independence Party]
From: Don(Wyziwyg)T
Date: 24 May 09 - 04:35 PM

I have come to the conclusion that we didn't know how well off we were when Labour meant the likes of David Owen, Bob Marshall-Andrews, John Smith et al.

Honest socialists to a man, and even if you didn't agree with their politics, you knew where you stood with them.

They were decent and honourable men of conscience.

There are STILL many such in all three major parties, and any ONE of them is worth TEN of the pseudo patriot brigade.

Don T.

Subject: RE: BS: whats wrong with ukip [UK Independence Par
From: Gervase
Date: 24 May 09 - 05:07 PM

Oh dear - after all their huffing and puffing about Westminster politicians, it seems that UKIP are rather red-faced. Nigel Farrago, their leader, has owned up to trousering nearly £2 million in expenses!

Subject: RE: BS: whats wrong with ukip [UK Independence Party]
From: GUEST
Date: 24 May 09 - 05:38 PM

Well that's it for me.

I'm sticking with the devil I know, but not without letting him know I'M WATCHING HIM!

Don T.

Subject: RE: BS: whats wrong with ukip [UK Independence Party]
From: Don(Wyziwyg)T
Date: 24 May 09 - 05:53 PM

That was me sans cookie........Don't know where it went, or why.

Don T.

Subject: RE: BS: whats wrong with ukip [UK Independence Party]
From: GUEST,lox
Date: 24 May 09 - 06:40 PM

Don, I don't know who the devil you know is, though I reckon I could make a good guess, and I reckon I would vote elsewhere.

Having said all that, I would like to say that I utterly agree with every last one of your words on the subject of MPs honour generally.

I also very much enjoyed the way you confronted our BNP friend.

Top drawer!!

Subject: RE: BS: whats wrong with ukip [UK Independence Party]
From: GUEST,lox
Date: 24 May 09 - 06:44 PM

ooops - I see - thats the devil you know - you've already spelled it out ...

... I wish I'd pay more attention sometimes ...


Though i still disagree ... as you would expect. :-)

Subject: RE: BS: whats wrong with ukip [UK Independence Party]
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 24 May 09 - 07:09 PM

"...we didn't know how well off we were when Labour meant the likes of David Owen, Bob Marshall-Andrews, John Smith et al. Honest socialists to a man."

The other two, true enough, and maybe "et al" as well - but "David Owen", well, that's a strange one to include. Did or indeed does he have any political convictions at all?

Subject: RE: BS: whats wrong with ukip [UK Independence Party]
From: jeddy
Date: 24 May 09 - 07:33 PM

it would seem to me that not one of the parties or independants standing want us to know exactly what they are about and almost all the parties have someone they wished would disappear for a while.

endless hours online for us then trying to get to the truth, how unlike MOST politicians to try to keep a bit back.
stay on please ann widicum( however i spell that it didn't look right) i don't agree with her on most things but i get the feeling SHE never held back or tried to spin anything, i could be wrong but thats how she has always appeared to me. i must admit to being abit of a newbie when it comes to polotics although even i know that the bnp are bastards!

Subject: RE: BS: whats wrong with ukip [UK Independence Party]
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 24 May 09 - 07:59 PM

Actually the UKIP leader hasn't "owned up" to that £2 million in expenses. Ukip leader Nigel Farage boasts of his £2m in expenses

But ain't "Nigel Farrago" a great name for a politician? You couldn't make it up and it seems peculiar fitting: "Farrago. A confused group; a hotch-potch." (Shorter Oxford Dictionary)

Subject: RE: BS: whats wrong with ukip [UK Independence Party]
From: jeddy
Date: 24 May 09 - 08:05 PM

maybe not admitted to pocketing but how the hell do you get through £2 mil?
maybe in about 10 years but probably not.
maybe it grew legs and decided it was bored and when for a holiday on some exotic island where they don't ask awkward quetions.
maybe the money liked him and stalked him until it had it's wicked way with him


my god i think i've lost the plot!!!!!!

Subject: RE: BS: whats wrong with ukip [UK Independence Party]
From: goatfell
Date: 25 May 09 - 04:43 AM

ukip/bnp what is the difference both are racist?

Subject: RE: BS: whats wrong with ukip [UK Independence Par
From: SPB-Cooperator
Date: 25 May 09 - 01:33 PM

UKIP do have one use, they divide the far-right vote.....

Subject: RE: BS: whats wrong with ukip [UK Independence Party]
From: jeddy
Date: 25 May 09 - 01:51 PM

but that's no use if they won't stand against each other. at least if they did then it would truley confuse people that don't come on here. i've learnt alot already, thanks

Subject: RE: BS: whats wrong with ukip [UK Independence Party]
From: Terry McDonald
Date: 25 May 09 - 02:36 PM

Theyt're standing against each other in the Euro elections.