BS: Shooting enthusiasts only

Subject: BS: Shooting enthusiasts only
From: 3refs
Date: 13 Jun 10 - 11:28 AM

I was watching a documentary on the Secret Service, and how they emerged from looking for counterfeit money to protecting one of the most important people on the planet. When they got to the snipers they employ, they discussed what the range was for an effective sniper.
I remember Mel Gibson in Lethal Weapon when he said that he "did a guy in Laos" from 1000 yards in high wind and only 8-10 guys in the world could make that shot.
I was kinda shocked when they said the longest "kill" shot on record was made by a Canadian from the P.P.C.L.I. in Afghanistan So I go surfing and found this video.
I'm still kinda shocked!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vMrku7K3EiU

Subject: RE: BS: Shooting enthusiasts only
From: Emma B
Date: 13 Jun 10 - 11:40 AM

What a nasty video - I have used rifles and know some sporting enthusiasts, but this is all about killing other humans with superoir technology !

I'm still kinda disgusted!

Subject: RE: BS: Shooting enthusiasts only
From: Georgiansilver
Date: 13 Jun 10 - 12:31 PM

However, technology improves endlessly and so does mans ability because of that technology when taking out his enemies. It is not necessarily the fittest men who win battles these days.. it is those in possession of the best weapons.... as it always was.. The sad thing is that man has to do this at all!

Subject: RE: BS: Shooting enthusiasts only
From: Emma B
Date: 13 Jun 10 - 12:46 PM

And even sadder that it is glorified in this sickening way.

Subject: RE: BS: Shooting enthusiasts only
From: Ed T
Date: 13 Jun 10 - 12:51 PM

A local Newfoundland post about two local snipers Rob Furlong (once had the unofficial title as the best sniper in the history of marksmanship) and sniper Dave Fitzpatrick. Fitzpatrick's story of his experiences,near the end, is quite compelling:




http://fishermansroad.blogspot.com/2010/05/fogo-island-sniper-loses-crown-as.html

Subject: RE: BS: Shooting enthusiasts only
From: gnu
Date: 13 Jun 10 - 01:14 PM

Now yas know what I am talking (endlessly) about in a lot of threads. I still don't know how the sniper knows that that the guy (lady?) is a Taliban who wants to kill him. Maybe the guy is hunting?

Subject: RE: BS: Shooting enthusiasts only
From: Rapparee
Date: 13 Jun 10 - 01:17 PM

Carlos Hathcock made a 1,000+ meter shot from an M-2 .50 caliber machinegun (1 bullet) in Vietnam. He also shot an enemy sniper who was shooting at him by sending a bullet down the enemy's telescope sight. General John Sedgewick was killed in the American Civil War by a Confederate sniper several hundred yards away. German, American, and British snipers made some amazing shots during WW I and II. For years the Camp Perry shooting matches in Ohio have had "One Mile Shooters" who do just that.

As someone who has done target shooting for 53 years now I have great respect for accuracy.

As a human being I hate it because we shoot at each other instead of paper targets. As someone who has a small understanding of human nature I don't see that changing any time soon.

Subject: RE: BS: Shooting enthusiasts only
From: Rapparee
Date: 13 Jun 10 - 01:33 PM

I have a friend who was a "black" sniper in VN. He is 100% disabled for both mental and physical reasons, not the least of which is PTSD of the worst sort. He now has one of the finest model railroads in this part of the country and enjoys is immensely -- but even with medicine the nightmares and insomnia still come. I only hope that the guys and gals who are "over there" have proper care before and after they leave the service.

Subject: RE: BS: Shooting enthusiasts only
From: Rapparee
Date: 13 Jun 10 - 01:33 PM

And by the way, I thought this thread was going to be about something else entirely.

Subject: RE: BS: Shooting enthusiasts only
From: Bill D
Date: 13 Jun 10 - 01:45 PM

I had some interesting moments reading the tread title in various ways.


If wars must exist, snipers do have a place in them. I've seen those videos, and all I know is that *I* have no place being in the position of deciding to pull a trigger in such circumstances.

Subject: RE: BS: Shooting enthusiasts only
From: gnu
Date: 13 Jun 10 - 01:46 PM

As did I, Rap. I was sent that sniper video by link in an email from a relative. I watched it, not knowing what I was about to see. I found it disturbing on a basic level and certainly on the "level" I cited above.

Subject: RE: BS: Shooting enthusiasts only
From: gnu
Date: 13 Jun 10 - 01:56 PM

This is more of what I thought it might be about.

I recall seeing him knock a ballon at 400 yards with a 45 semi... I think, can't recall the gun.

Subject: RE: BS: Shooting enthusiasts only
From: Emma B
Date: 13 Jun 10 - 01:57 PM

I'm not naive enough to believe that warfare will cease and weapons will be turned into ploughshares

And, despite the recent killing of 12 people not so very far from me by a man owning legitimate weapons, I do NOT advocate the banning of all guns (the rules in the UK are already pretty strict)

What distresses me is the concept of equating killing humans with sporting metaphors coupled with the sort of macho musical background to the video which accompanies the obvious 'enthusiam' for this type of 'sport'

Subject: RE: BS: Shooting enthusiasts only
From: Uncle_DaveO
Date: 13 Jun 10 - 02:10 PM

3refs and EmmaB, why shocked? Why disgusted?

Sharpshooting is in principle no different from say dropping a bomb on an enemy position, or throwing a grenade into an enemy's bunker.

Now if you're saying you're shocked at war in itself, that's fair enough, I suppose, but your reactions in this case are specifically referable to the sharpshooting video.

Sharpshooting is really no different from other weapon use. Indeed, since the very point of sharpshooting is the precision application of force based on the high expertise of the shooter, it's much more humane in its potential than either the bomb or the grenade referred to in the previous paragraph, since those weapons are much more likely to cause harm to uninvolved bystanders.

If you object to a soldier's being able to kill an enemy from a fairly remote distance, you are about five hundred years behind the times, and need to abolish firearms entirely--Actually, farther back than that: The cross-bow and the longbow are pre-firearms, and were objected to on the same basis. You need to go back to hand to hand combat, with swords and axes.

If you have a way to abolish war entirely, go ahead. And lots of luck!

Dave Oesterreich

Subject: RE: BS: Shooting enthusiasts only
From: Rapparee
Date: 13 Jun 10 - 02:13 PM

The music is what bothered me too, Emma. Killing another is not a time for music and dancing. The feeling of "I got him!" is legitimate, but I don't know of anyone who has had to kill someone in combat to rejoice over it for days and weeks. If they do, the person is ill.

I recently bought a Ruger Air Hawk Elite Combo (like this) for target shooting. It is a single shot .177 caliber break-action pellet rifle. I will use it on a range, and this Fall will join other air gun enthusiasts in shooting indoors. I also have a customized Crosman .177 caliber CO2 pistol, which is also single shot and which I use the same way.

I've reached the point where I like accuracy, but I do NOT like videos like that one.

Subject: RE: BS: Shooting enthusiasts only
From: gnu
Date: 13 Jun 10 - 02:20 PM

"equating killing humans with sporting metaphors coupled with the sort of macho musical background"

It's like marketing smokes to kids. The armed forces do it on the TV that same way. It's kinda sick, but it's... nah, not what this thread is about.

Subject: RE: BS: Shooting enthusiasts only
From: 3refs
Date: 13 Jun 10 - 02:21 PM

The distance, not the act shocked me!
Other than the crappy background song, there was no killing.

The round in question took 4 seconds to reach the target and dropped 146 feet and apparently saved more than a few lives!

I'm still shocked!

Subject: RE: BS: Shooting enthusiasts only
From: Ed T
Date: 13 Jun 10 - 02:46 PM

"I still don't know how the sniper knows that that the guy (lady?) is a Taliban who wants to kill him. Maybe the guy is hunting"

I am not a military person. But, I suspect sniper shots get "called in" from military sources who zero in on specific targets...like with artilary rounds, or air strikes. All are likely to do damage to the enemy and kill people. Unfortunately, wars and conflicts have always resulted in death and disctruction and kill nice people along with those less nice...not something I like to think of..and hope will end....but it's reality and unlikely to stop.

Subject: RE: BS: Shooting enthusiasts only
From: kendall
Date: 13 Jun 10 - 03:58 PM

200 yards with an air rifle? Pull the other one!

Subject: RE: BS: Shooting enthusiasts only
From: gnu
Date: 13 Jun 10 - 04:11 PM

3? The vid I saw clearly showed appendages flying in the air. Not the same video apparently.

I suppose yer right, Ed T. I just don't like Harper prosecuting a civil and religious war half way round the world which we sould have no part in. Terrorism... well, okay, but that is not why these snipers are blowing "targets" apart. Sorry for the thread drift.

Subject: RE: BS: Shooting enthusiasts only
From: Rapparee
Date: 13 Jun 10 - 05:54 PM

Kendall? Air rifles have changed somewhat since you put down your Red Ryder. My air rifle will do up to 1,200 fps and that scope is 4 to 12 power x 40mm. 200 yards isn't much -- I could, with practice, hit a target at 300 yards. Here's some stuff from Robert Beeman, of the company that makes Beeman air guns:

To get some perspective on airgun velocities, consider the muzzle velocities of some well-known guns: A typical "BB" gun imparts about 250 to 350 fps to a light (about 5 grains [0.32 grams]}, .174" (4.4 mm) steel ball. A .22" ( 5.5 mm) rimfire cartridge rifle has a regular-speed muzzle velocity of about 1025 to 1145 fps. Ten pumps in a Daisy Powerline 880 or Crosman Powermaster 760 BB/pellet pneumatic will fire pellets at about 570 to 670 fps. Ten pumps in a Benjamin M342 .22 caliber air rifle, produces about 640 fps. Ten pumps gives about 605 fps in the .177" Crosman 1400 or 695 fps in the .20" Sheridan air rifle. The muzzle velocity of a Beeman R-1 air rifle ranges about 590 to over 1100 fps, depending on model and caliber. A .38" Special (9 mm) firearm or .45" (11.4 mm) ACP firearm wadcutter bullet moves at about 770 fps muzzle velocity, but is extremely dangerous due to its great weight. In terms of the more familiar miles per hour, the BB gun sends out its projectile at about 170 miles per hour, while a top level adult air rifle will rush its projectile out at over 750 miles per hour. Plaintiff lawyers in airgun cases often dwell on the velocity of airguns as a measure of their danger. However, one must temper any considerations of velocity with the mass of the moving object; obviously most of us would choose being hit with a BB at 170 miles per hour rather than by an automobile, or even a hard baseball, going "only" 60 miles per hour!

However -- shooting a .177 pellet at more than 1080 fps (speed of sound) will cause the lightweight pellet to yaw and lose a LOT of accuracy. And while muzzle velocity might be 1000 fps, after about 35 yards the pellet starts to drop -- at 300 yards I'd probably have to compensate for around 100 inches of pellet drop.

Yeah it can be done. I'm not gonna try it, though. I could easily do it with a rifle, I'm okay out to about 300 meters with a properly zeroed rifle, using open sights; I've never tried it with a scoped rifle.

But then again, we only saw a couple or three shots in that video and we have no idea of the size of the actual target. I could tape up a piece of 6 x 6 foot paper and select the best group!

Basically, I'm saying that it can be done, but I'd like to see it verified by me personally or someone I can trust.

(Max range on my Ruger air rifle, by the way, is supposed to 575 yards.)

Subject: RE: BS: Shooting enthusiasts only
From: Emma B
Date: 13 Jun 10 - 06:10 PM

In a post sometime back I included a report from a female correspondent in Afghanistan which gave an account of the description by soldiers watching a drone hit as a snuff video game

The quotes below are from Worldfocus, an American newscast focused on international news and reporting. It distributed to U.S. public television stations by American Public Television and ceased broadcasting on April 2, 2010


"As unmanned aerial vehicles (UAVs) have become increasingly central to America's wars, "drone porn" has taken the internet by storm with captivating aerial images of death and destruction.
The Defense Department actually posts its drone attack footage on YouTube via DVidsHub. Some of the videos have caught the attention of millions

The military's Predators and Reapers routinely strike Iraq, Afghanistan — and increasingly in Yemen, Somalia and elsewhere

With an aim of promoting UAVs domestically as well as "enlightening" our enemies, the Defense Department recently began placing the Predator and Reaper mission clips on YouTube.
Ranging from relatively detached wide shots of bombings taken by onboard cameras to startlingly graphic close-ups, the so-called "drone porn" has been a smash hit, as it were, tallying over 10 million views

Some marvel at the new technology and discuss the resulting paradigm shift in warfare. Some raise questions, including whether it's principled, dignified or otherwise in America's best interest to post drone prone in the first place. Most comments are along the lines of, "Hell yeah HOOOAH BABY!" "


The most watched "drone porn" segments are from Iraq. One video of the killing of "Six armed criminals' Baghdad has over 1 million views:

Uncle Dave O said -

"If you object to a soldier's being able to kill an enemy from a fairly remote distance, you are about five hundred years behind the times, and need to abolish firearms entirely"

I'm not out of touch with reality Uncle Dave O but I am increasingly disturbed with the separation between the attacker and the 'target' - the CIA drone operators are based in the US I believe - and even more so with the increasing overlap between video games of killing and warfare and the association between the legitimate, and highly skilled sport of target shooting. with the shooting of other human who are reduced to mere 'targets' which I feel this video belongs to.

"….the moral hazards of such extrajudicial killings are never explored in video games, or drone attacks, and all the usual human safeguards against killing during a ground invasion (namely that you have to look your target in the eye while killing them with your bare hands) are no longer an obstacle."


.

Subject: RE: BS: Shooting enthusiasts only
From: 3refs
Date: 13 Jun 10 - 06:19 PM

Here in Canada.

1. Air guns that are firearms for purposes of both the Firearms Act and the Criminal Code.
These are air guns with both a high muzzle velocity (greater than 152.4 meters or 500 feet per second) and a high muzzle energy (greater than 5.7 joules or 4.2 foot-pounds). The "muzzle velocity" is the speed of a projectile at the instant it leaves the muzzle of a gun, normally expressed in metres per second or feet per second. The "muzzle energy" is the energy of a projectile at the instant it leaves the muzzle of a gun, expressed in joules or foot-pounds. Air guns need to meet both standards to be classified as firearms for purposes of the Firearms Act.

Subject: RE: BS: Shooting enthusiasts only
From: Rapparee
Date: 13 Jun 10 - 06:29 PM

That's okay. I wasn't planning on bringing ANY guns into Canada. Or anywhere else, for that matter. It's very, very unfortunate, but you can get a gun and ammunition anywhere you happen to be if you a) know who and how and b) are willing to pay enough cash.

Subject: RE: BS: Shooting enthusiasts only
From: Rapparee
Date: 13 Jun 10 - 06:35 PM

Bill C-391, the private member's bill that could end Canada's long gun registry, is likely on hold for the summer. The bill, introduced by Conservative Candice Hoeppner, passed second reading with the support of 20 votes from Liberal and NDP Members of Parliament. It was then referred to committee for debate and a clause by clause examination.

Subject: RE: BS: Shooting enthusiasts only
From: gnu
Date: 13 Jun 10 - 06:56 PM

Rap... It was then referred to committee for debate and a clause by clause examination at great expense to the taxpayer while ensuring lots of highly paid salaries and perks for those invloved who will provide a summary of their findings which will be useless drivel with no absolute or defining conclusions, upon which, another round of "screw the taxpayer" will be ordered.

I added a bit... for clarification.

Subject: RE: BS: Shooting enthusiasts only
From: olddude
Date: 13 Jun 10 - 07:13 PM

disturbing to say the least, as with most, people come out of training doing the lets get em ... once they are in that positions and have to use the weapon, the rest of their life they are messed up ... exactly what Rap said ...

unless one is defective in character, it is nothing to celebrate. There are few people that can match my handgun skills, there are many who can match and exceed my rife skills, but I never had to use either thankfully ...

Subject: RE: BS: Shooting enthusiasts only
From: gnu
Date: 13 Jun 10 - 07:19 PM

Target shooting is just clean fun.

Subject: RE: BS: Shooting enthusiasts only
From: Rapparee
Date: 13 Jun 10 - 07:23 PM

Likewise, Dan. Likewise.

Why do people think cops get counseling after having to shoot and kill someone? Why do railroad engineers get counseling after hitting someone, even though it is not their fault? Why is the military doing a helluva lot more for the mental as well as the physical health of people in the service?

Unless you have severe mental problems, killing another human being isn't a video game. It's blood and guts and brains and bone shattered and spewed out on the patient Earth. Ask an EMT, ask a firefighter, ask a cop. Ask someone who has heard the "crack!" of a bullet being fired at him or her, or someone who has held a head-shot or gut-shot buddy in their arms and watched as the light went out.

THEN make your videos and talk about killing.

Subject: RE: BS: Shooting enthusiasts only
From: Rapparee
Date: 13 Jun 10 - 07:29 PM

In the meantime, I'll go to the range and shoot paper target that have concentric circles on them.

Subject: RE: BS: Shooting enthusiasts only
From: Emma B
Date: 13 Jun 10 - 07:33 PM

"It's blood and guts and brains and bone shattered and spewed out on the patient Earth"
Not if you are as far away as the shooters on that vid - or even on another continent!
It's "Hell yeah HOOOAH BABY" time!

Subject: RE: BS: Shooting enthusiasts only
From: gnu
Date: 13 Jun 10 - 07:36 PM

Loud and clear, Rap. 5 on 5.

Subject: RE: BS: Shooting enthusiasts only
From: kendall
Date: 13 Jun 10 - 08:40 PM

In Maine, an air rifle is not considered a firearm.

Subject: RE: BS: Shooting enthusiasts only
From: Ed T
Date: 13 Jun 10 - 09:23 PM

I suppose yer right, Ed T. I just don't like Harper prosecuting a civil and religious war half way round the world which we sould have no part in. Terrorism... well, okay, but that is not why these snipers are blowing "targets" apart.

I agree with your political views on this, gnu. But, one has to separate the solder from the political nuts who put them in those situations.

It is the young folks, who eagerly enlisted to protect thir country, not the politicialns that put them there, that often face associated issues for the rest of their lives.

Subject: RE: BS: Shooting enthusiasts only
From: Rapparee
Date: 13 Jun 10 - 09:38 PM

Emma, did you see the telescopes? The telescopic sights? The shooter and his spotter can BOTH see the human beings they shoot. They are NOT targets in some arcade game.

Snipers are taught NEVER to look at a target's eyes or they won't be able to pull the trigger.

In every single war, whether is is fought with missiles and lasers or rocks, you MUST depersonalize the people you are trying to kills. We even have names for them: Boche, Hun, Wop, Eye-tie, Reds, Commies, Limeys, Gooks, Japs, Nips, Chinks, Lobsterbacks, Fuzzy-Wuzzies, Chalie, Niggers (by Brits, Americans, and others), Papist, Fenians.... Try killing someone you've been introduced to as Herman, Frederich, Giano, Lucio, Ivan, Fedor, Bill, Nguyen, Kim, Yamamoto, Suenaga, Chou, Fred, Offung, Sean, Patel, Patrick....

Had he and I but met
By some old ancient inn,
We should have set us down to wet
Right many a nipperkin!

But ranged as infantry,
And staring face to face,
I shot at him as he at me,
And killed him in his place.

I shot him dead because--
Because he was my foe,
Just so: my foe of course he was;
That's clear enough; although

He thought he'd 'list, perhaps,
Off-hand like--just as I--
Was out of work--had sold his traps--
No other reason why.

Yes; quaint and curious war is!
You shoot a fellow down
You'd treat, if met where any bar is,
Or help to half a crown.

The Man he Killed
       --Thomas Hardy

Subject: RE: BS: Shooting enthusiasts only
From: GUEST,Uncle Rumpo
Date: 13 Jun 10 - 09:46 PM

I'm a civilian and all my life a pacifist humanist
and for most of that a long haired hippy peace and love activist..

but i like guns..

I'd love to own a gun.

I truly appreciate well designed and engineered machined tools.
be that guitars, amps, drills, fishing rod reels, guns.. etc..

ok, my honest, my purely objective observation..

some of the most magnificent products of human intelligence and imagination
are weapons.. tools of death and destruction..

evil in intent

but strangely perfect and enticing in form and function..

but still wonderfull objects of human creativity..

They should be displayed as works of art..


Is any thing in the Tate Modern more beautiful
than the Short Sunderland..???

Subject: RE: BS: Shooting enthusiasts only
From: Emma B
Date: 13 Jun 10 - 10:15 PM

OK Rapaire. against my better judgement I watched this sickening video again although I tried to mute the triumphant song about the '21st C killing machines'

I saw the claim of a kill at one and a half miles and a telesccpic lens panning a building

My friend's children have exactly this kind of super macho arcade game and yes I understand well the policy of totally dehumanizing the 'enemy' which is why I have protested (and will continue to do so) on threads here against the use of names like 'Paki' etc when 'justified' as 'friendly banter'

I posted the video of the young Israeli soldier in another thread describing all inhabitants of Ramallah in the West Bank as 'dogs, gorillas' etc and 'animals not human like us'

Makes it so much easier to kill 'insurgents', women and children without any contact or conscience.

"Hell yeah HOOOAH BABY!"

Subject: RE: BS: Shooting enthusiasts only
From: Rapparee
Date: 13 Jun 10 - 10:27 PM

Emma, that "song" I found to be completely and irredeemably offensive. Only the mentally sick rejoice in killing others. We convicted some of them at Nuremberg in 1946.

Subject: RE: BS: Shooting enthusiasts only
From: GUEST,Uncle Rumpo
Date: 13 Jun 10 - 10:38 PM

"against my better judgement I watched this sickening video"

so that would be the completley shite amateurish teen fanboy
waste of bandwith youtube uploaded pile of bollocks ...etc..

there are far more horrible atrocities happening on this planet
IN THE REAL WORLD to get angry about..!!!!

Sorry Em, don't feel no ill intent to you,
don't know you, but please...

we, all of us on the side of the 'good guys'
can't afford the luxury of being too oversensitive about every petty
antagonism in the virtual world
that can eventually exaust all our collective resistance energies
to fight the real enemy in the here and now 3D world..

Subject: RE: BS: Shooting enthusiasts only
From: Emma B
Date: 14 Jun 10 - 06:55 AM

"there are far more horrible atrocities happening on this planet
IN THE REAL WORLD to get angry about..!!!! "

Yes I am well aware - I have participated directly for many years, as far as possible, in attempting to change things in the 'real' world too.

However, this should not deny me the option of voicing an opinion about this sort of unpleasant stuff on a folk music forum.

Subject: RE: BS: Shooting enthusiasts only
From: Amergin
Date: 14 Jun 10 - 07:14 AM

I only shoot enthusiasts during the season....not about to get busted for poaching enthusiasts....

Subject: RE: BS: Shooting enthusiasts only
From: Rapparee
Date: 14 Jun 10 - 09:44 AM

I suggest Stubbs barbeque sauce, Amergin.

Subject: RE: BS: Shooting enthusiasts only
From: Ed T
Date: 14 Jun 10 - 01:22 PM

"poaching enthusiasts"

I prefer them slow roasted.

Subject: RE: BS: Shooting enthusiasts only
From: Emma B
Date: 14 Jun 10 - 01:30 PM

The 'Cooking Enthusiast ' site - all you need to know

Thanks for the laugh Amergin :)

Subject: RE: BS: Shooting enthusiasts only
From: Rapparee
Date: 14 Jun 10 - 02:47 PM

A special knife for cutting watermelon? I'll have to get one -- my machete is getting dull. But couldn't I just use one of the kitchen knives I already have?

Subject: RE: BS: Shooting enthusiasts only
From: VirginiaTam
Date: 14 Jun 10 - 02:56 PM

Friend (in the UK) told me only today that when her parents visited Nevada, they visited a shooting range. They brought the used target home. It was not the typical red and white bullseye target. It was a life sized poster of a family 2 parents 2 kids with bullet holes in their heads.

I told her that was just sick. She agreed.

Subject: RE: BS: Shooting enthusiasts only
From: Rapparee
Date: 14 Jun 10 - 03:17 PM

You can get (or make) lots of targets. I don't use any with a human outline and I don't want those shooting with me to use such. I can't speak for Nevada, but the people I know there don't shoot targets of parents and children.

One of the more challenging targets is an inflated balloon hung by a string on a string stretched in front of a good backstop on a windy day. A quarter-sized washer hung the same way is also fun. The range for the washer should be about 50 feet. Or paste paper over one end of a toilet paper tube and arrange it on a bench (75 feet range) so that to his the paper target you have to shoot down the tube. (You also have to clean up after yourself.)

But no pictures or targets of people.

Ever.

Subject: RE: BS: Shooting enthusiasts only
From: 3refs
Date: 14 Jun 10 - 03:32 PM

Perhaps I should learn to title my posts differently!

I somehow knew this would turn into a debate, or a debacle! The plain and simple truth is, people, communities and countries need to be protected and have the ability to defend themselves, or you have to depend on someone else to do it for you. Against what? Everything! I have no desire to cause harm. Nor do I wish to do a little "payback" for past atrocities against humankind. But somebody has to take a stand. If your not willing to protect, or support those who do the protecting, then go to the front of the line and take the bullet that was meant for me so I can continue to protect those behind me!!!

Subject: RE: BS: Shooting enthusiasts only
From: Rapparee
Date: 14 Jun 10 - 04:24 PM

3refs...I wrote that check on my 18th birthday. It's still not cashed, but it's still good.

Subject: RE: BS: Shooting enthusiasts only
From: gnu
Date: 14 Jun 10 - 05:29 PM

3... your title was fine. Fact is, "Keep Out" is an invite, perhaps even a dare, for peeps to come in and find a reason to shit on you or your thread or whatever. It's just the way the world is. Ignore it.... it is your only option.