Origins: Loch Lomond

Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Loch Lomond
From: Taconicus
Date: 29 Jan 11 - 06:46 PM

Thanks Amos, I think that Corries version is my favorite too. Can you point us to the lyrics as they sang it?

Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Loch Lomond
From: Amos
Date: 29 Jan 11 - 10:40 PM

They are close to the version posted upthread.


A

Subject: RE: Origins: Loch Lomond
From: Lighter
Date: 01 Jan 23 - 04:55 PM

The Traditional Ballad Index cites a remarkably early appearance in Niel Gow's "Vocal Melodies of Scotland" (1841).

However, no air by the name appears in either Part 1 or Part 2, both of which are now online.

Someone who can sightread might be able to find the tune if it's there.

Subject: RE: Origins: Loch Lomond
From: meself
Date: 01 Jan 23 - 09:44 PM

I know the lyric as "in sunshine the waters are STEEPIN'" - which I prefer to "sleepin'" ....

Subject: RE: Origins: Loch Lomond
From: Jack Campin
Date: 02 Jan 23 - 03:36 AM

"Vocal Melodies of Scotland" was by Nathaniel Gow - he died in 1838 I think, the 1841 edition must have been a posthumous one with somebody else involved.

Subject: RE: Origins: Loch Lomond
From: GUEST,Rory
Date: 02 Jan 23 - 05:31 AM

Gow's The vocal melodies of Scotland was printed in the 1820's with two publications, see below.

I don't understand why The Traditional Ballad Index has cited this publication for Loch Lomond as it does not appear to have the tune in both volumes, nor the lyrics.
And where did the date of 1841 come from? Could this be with reference to Lady John Scott in the 1840s?



Full title: The vocal melodies of Scotland dedicated to His Grace the Duke of Buccleuch & Queensberry; arranged for the piano forte or harp, violin & violoncello, by Nathaniel Gow.

Publisher: Edinburgh: Nathaniel Gow & Son, [ca 1810-1820];

Printer: Printed for and sold by Nathaniel Gow & Son

Date: [1810-1820?]

Description:
Published in two volumes by Gow & Son (Nathaniel & Niel Junr., who died 1823), and subsequently published in two volumes by Gow & Galbraith from 1823, and in two volumes by Alexander Robertson c.1827. A rare second edition by Robertson extended to three volumes c.1830.

Subject: RE: Origins: Loch Lomond
From: Lighter
Date: 02 Jan 23 - 09:01 PM

"Niel" for "Nathaniel" was my bleary-eyed error.

But the Index does say (erroneously) "1841."

Subject: RE: Origins: Loch Lomond
From: GUEST,Rory
Date: 02 Jan 23 - 10:54 PM

I think the Traditional Ballad Index citation is referring not to Gow's publication, but this publication:


Record ID:
158190

Title:
Bonnie Loch Loman : from The vocal melodies of Scotland united to the songs of Robert Burns, Sir Walter Scott, and other distinguished poets / arranged with symphonies and accompaniments for the piano forte, by Finlay Dun & John Thomson.

Published:
Edinr. (27 George Street, Edinburgh) : Published by Paterson & Roy, [1840 or 1841]

Notes:
Sheet music.
First printing of the song; "the song was not in fact included in any of the four volumes of Vocal melodies of Scotland...." Cf. Fuld, J. The book of world-famous music", p. 336.

Associated names:
Dun, Finlay, 1795-1853.
Thomson, John, 1805-1841.

Department:
Music Manuscripts and Printed Music

Music Collection:
James Fuld Collection

Subject: RE: Origins: Loch Lomond
From: Lighter
Date: 03 Jan 23 - 11:25 AM

It would be most interesting to see the music and lyrics of "The Bonnie Banks of Loch Loman."

I've searched on line and in a couple of databases with no luck.

Subject: RE: Origins: Loch Lomond
From: Jack Campin
Date: 04 Jan 23 - 08:58 PM

Which library was that record from?

Sure the name wasn't Auld rather than Fuld?

Subject: RE: Origins: Loch Lomond
From: GUEST,Rory
Date: 04 Jan 23 - 09:20 PM

The Morgan Library & Museum, New York

https://www.themorgan.org/music-manuscripts-and-printed-music/158190

A digital image does not appear to be available.

Subject: RE: Origins: Loch Lomond
From: GUEST,Rossey
Date: 05 Jan 23 - 06:23 AM

This was published in the Newcastle Journal 4th Feb 1902.
                              
BONNIE BANKS O’ LOCH LOMOND.” A Lady very kindly sends me 2 version of the above song which I have not seen before; nor many of my readers, mayhap. It is copied from a book of manuscript music about 50 years old. There is no chorus as in the modern version, and the piece bears this record: —“Words by a Lady: arranged by F. Dun.” As my correspondent observes, this version indicates the character of the ‘trouble’” referred to in the second. The song is, in this case, entitled “Bonnie Loch Loman’ and runs as follows:—

By yon bonnie banks and yon bonnie braes,
Where the sun shines sweet on Loch Loman,
Where we hae past sae mony happy days
On the bonnle, -bonnie banks o’ Loch Loman,

0, ye'll tak’ the high road
and I'll tak’ the low road,
And I'll be in Scotland before ye;
But trouble is there, and mony hearts are sair
On the bonnie, bonnie banks o’ Loch Loman.

‘We'll meet where we parted in yon shady glen
On the steep side o’ Ben Loman,
A When'in purple hue
the Hieland hills we view,
And the moon Iooks out frae the gloamin’.

Still fair is the scene, but.ah! how changed are-the hopes we fondly cherished; Like a watery gleam - like a morning dream
On Culloden Field they hae perished.
Ah! many that met and freely did rove,
Now ’mang the brakin are hidin’

An’ men guid and true are hunted frae view,
An’ exile or death are abidin’,
Wi’ his fair youthfu’ face and his native grace,
His plaidie in the breeze wavin’ lightiy,
His buckies shinin’ clear, his very sight did cheer. Oh! handsome were the looks of Prince Charlie!

There is also a early broadside variant Flora's Lament For Her Charlie. reproduced on Mudcat, but not linked to this thread, though it should be.

FLORA'S LAMENT FOR HER CHARLIE

It's yon bonny banks and yon bonny braes
Where the sun shines bright and bonny
Where I and my true love went out for to gaze
On the bonny bonny banks of Benlomond

cho: It's you'll take the high road and I'll take the low road.
And I'll be in Scotland before you.
And I and my true love shall never meet again
On the bonny banks of Benlomond.

It's not for the hardships that I must endure
Nor the leaving of Benlomond
But it's for the leaving of my comrades all
And the bonny lad that I love so dearly

With his bonny lac'd shoes and his buckles so clear
And his plaid o'er his shoulder hung so rarely
One glance of his eye it would banish dull care
So handsome the looks of my Charlie

But as long as I live and as long as I do breathe
I will sing to his memory fairly
My true love was taken by the arrows of death
And now Flora does lament for her Charlie

Broadside version (which might be from Sanderson)
@Scottish

https://digital.nls.uk/broadsides/view/?id=16612 For an image. They date this to the 1840's.

Subject: RE: Origins: Loch Lomond
From: GUEST,Rossey
Date: 05 Jan 23 - 06:32 AM

A slightly earlier (?) printing of Flora's Lament.. can be found here http://ballads.bodleian.ox.ac.uk/view/sheet/16697

Subject: RE: Origins: Loch Lomond
From: GUEST,Rossey
Date: 05 Jan 23 - 07:21 AM

This is a chorus variant quoted in a February 1876 newspaper, where it has pretty much morphed, and can be fitted to the tune we all know. The song as we know it, really takes off in the 1880's-90's, when it can suddenly be found mentioned in theatre performances and as a 'parlour' song.

You'll take the high road, and I'll take the low road. And I'll be in Scotland before ye'. And It's I will meet my true love. My gallant, pretty boy. On the bonnie, bonnie banks of Loch Lomond.

Subject: RE: Origins: Loch Lomond
From: GUEST
Date: 05 Jan 23 - 09:52 AM

Christie's folk ballads of 1876 gives the 'modern' version with words and melody.. and also notes about the alleged origins of the song. This is on-line and can be seen and downloaded..   



https://www.ed.ac.uk/literatures-languages-cultures/celtic-scottish-studies/research/internal-projects/traditional-ballad-airs

Subject: RE: Origins: Loch Lomond
From: Lighter
Date: 05 Jan 23 - 01:27 PM

Great job, Rossey. It would still be nice to see the 1840 original, but it was clearly the "same" song.

Christie's tune isn't quite today's standard, but it would be foolish to quibble about the differences.

In the USA, the song isn't even mentioned until ca1895.

The English collector Frank Kidson wrote in the Leeds Mercury (Feb. 25, 1888) as follows:

"I've never seen it in print, but the following are fragments picked up among the cotters of Eskdale. They are wedded to a very beautiful old air, to which certain other old songs are sung [Like what, dammit?! -ed.], and it may find a place in these columns some day:

    On yon bonny banks and yon bonny braes,
      Where the moon shines so bright and clearly,
    Where I and my ain true love went out to gaze
      On the bonny, bonny banks of Loch Lomond.

    It's na for the leaving of this bonny place,
      Nor my master and mistress that grieves me,
    But it's a' for the leaving o' my kind comrades a',
      And the bonny lass that lo'es me so dearly.

    You take the high road and I'll take the low road,
      And I'll be in Scotland before you, &c."

British papers begin mentioning concert performances of the song later in 1888, and they soon become notably frequent.

The first U.S. notice I've found is from 1890. Performances here take off in 1894.

So it would seem that a somewhat obscure 1840s parlor song entered oral tradition in Scotland and was popularized by stage performers (and, I assume, new sheet music) everywhere some fifty years later.

Subject: RE: Origins: Loch Lomond
From: GUEST,Rossey
Date: 06 Jan 23 - 03:10 PM

Lighter.. a bit more about this is in an 1872 publication, and one of the tunes used foe the lyrics.   Confusingly we have numerous titles to try and pick out as well. Some versions are not Loch Lomond, but Ben Lomond. So different titles, different spellings here and there, even of the word Bonnie, Loman' etc.   This writer says that it was a street/fair song in its earlier form.   So sometime between one part of the early Victorian period and the later, it acquires a different melody and identity that gets taken up.   Supposedly one of the versions is in the Dunn Vocal Melodies of Scotland c 1842 (not the Gow one of the same book title). However, that is in archives and for sale, but not reproduced on-line.



https://archive.org/details/sim_notes-and-queries_1872-05-18_9_229/page/412/mode/2up?q=%22you%27ll+take+the+high+road%22

Subject: RE: Origins: Loch Lomond
From: GUEST,Rossey
Date: 06 Jan 23 - 05:52 PM

The 'modern' version with the tune and verses .. eg wee birdies sing etc. is to be found in the 1885 publication Songs of the North edited by Nacleod and Bolton with arrangement by Malcom Lawson. Lawson makes no claim to having composed the version, and both words and music are stated to be an old Scottish song with traditional melody arranged Lawson. It is titled here Loch Lomond/The Bonnie Banks O' Loch Lomond.

Subject: RE: Origins: Loch Lomond
From: Lighter
Date: 06 Jan 23 - 05:58 PM

Very nice finds.

But (naturally?) the air indicated in N & Q ("My Charlie! my Charlie!") appears also to be elusive!

Subject: RE: Origins: Loch Lomond
From: GUEST,Rossey
Date: 07 Jan 23 - 04:22 AM

The broadsides, 1840's Vocal melodies of Scotland etc. appear to be all the Charlie words.. not the mannered version we all know. Though I am going on a 1902 newspaper quoted version for that. So far the 1876 Christie's edition is the first with the verses we all know.. 'wee birdies sing' etc. The 1885 printed version is also the 'modern' one.

By the 1870's the 'you'll take the high road' element is known in several countries and used in Punch magazine, so had already entered popular culture, sometimes with it being Ben Lomond, rather than Loch Lomond, but not as far as I can see provably the 1876 printed version.

In 1890, Lady John Scott is still alive, and newspapers are featuring her for Annie Laurie .. saying that she had been asserting her authorship/composition in making alterations and additions to an old original, as they were culturally famous. If she had written Loch Lomond in its later famous form, I would have thought she would have claimed some part of the credit via a moan to the press.

Subject: RE: Origins: Loch Lomond
From: GUEST,Rossey
Date: 07 Jan 23 - 07:58 AM

Updating this.. I have found that the original 1840's version attributed to Lady Scott has seven verses, and includes the 'wee birdies sing line', all be it everything was later tidied up. It can be found here, if anyone wants to transpose it and add it.

https://archive.org/details/brownsbookstalln02aber/page/n665/mode/2up?q=%22wee+birdies+sing%22

Subject: RE: Origins: Loch Lomond
From: GUEST,Rossey
Date: 07 Jan 23 - 09:13 AM

Addendum, Also thus upends the Lady Scott attribution as she reportedly confirmed she didn't write it. It's worth transferring the whole story given.

Subject: RE: Origins: Loch Lomond
From: Lighter
Date: 07 Jan 23 - 09:37 AM

Exceptional sleuthing Rossey. The entire article (from 1911), "About Some Auld Sangs," by "W." is enlightening and worth reading. It partly relies on a column by Gavin Grieg.

Here is the 1840 text, which Lady Scott denied she'd written, "Published by Paterson & Roy, 27 George Street, Edinburgh":


                   "BONNIE LOCH LOMAN."

By yon bonnie banks and yon bonnie braes,
Where the sun shines sweet on Loch Loman,
Where we hae past sae mony happy days,
On the bonnie bonnie banks o' Loch Loman!

Chorus —
O', ye'll tak' the hie road, and I'll tak' the low road
And I'll be in Scotland afore ye —
But trouble it is there, and mony hearts are sair,
On the bonnie bonnie banks o' Loch Loman.

We'll meet where we parted, in yon shady glen,
On the steep, steep side o' Ben Loman,
When, in purple hue, the hieland hills we view,
An' the moon looks out frae the gloamin'.

Still fair is the scene, but ah! how changed
Are the hopes we fondly cherish'd,
Like a watery gleam — like a mornin' dream —
On Culloden field they perish'd.

Ah, mony that met and freely did rove,
Now 'mang the bracken are hidin,'
An' men, guid an' true, are hunted frae view,
An' exile or death are abidin'!

Wi' his fair youthfu' face, an' his native grace,
His plaidie in the breeze wavin' lightly,
His buckles shinin' clear, his very sight did cheer,
Oh, handsome were the looks o' Prince Charlie.

Oh, brave Charlie Stewart! dear to the true heart!
Wha could refuse thee protection?
Like the weeping birch on the wild hill side,
How gracefu' he luiked in dejection!

The wild flowers spring, an' the wee birdies sing,
An' in sunshine the waters are sleepin';
But the broken heart it kens nae second spring,
Yet resigned we may be tho' we're greetin'.


Grieg is cited as being certain that the anonymous song ("By a lady") circulated earlier in manuscript.

But if so, before 1840 it could have been known to only a relative handful of people.

W. helpfully notes that "Its latest form, that in use by singers now,
consists of verses 1, 2, and 7, with the chorus after each" and with trivial verbal changes. (And the song certainly benefits from the editing.)


Presumably the air was essentially the modern one, which Christie's closely approximates.

Subject: RE: Origins: Loch Lomond
From: GUEST,Rossey
Date: 07 Jan 23 - 11:49 PM

Many thanks for your work Lighter, two heads are better than one. This is the 1885 songbook 'Songs of the North' which contains the 'modern' version, at least I assume it is, I can't read music. It's in segment one of the PDF. Although it is a 20th edition the song is listed in the 1st edition, so nothing changed.


https://imslp.org/wiki/Songs_of_the_North_(Folk_Songs%2C_Scottish)

Subject: RE: Origins: Loch Lomond
From: Lighter
Date: 08 Jan 23 - 11:24 AM

Thanks, Rossey. I'd bet that "Song of the North" is the missing link between the 1840 version and the song's later popularity.

The melody, like the words, is what is sung today.

Two significant facts, which you'll probably have noticed:

The publication date of 1885 comes not long before the song's sudden popularity.

Its appearance, moreover, professionally arranged and among the first few songs in a lavish publication "Dedicated by Gracious Permission to Her Majesty, the Queen," guaranteed it would have been noticed and appreciated.

And we know "Songs of the North" was influential: It also marked the   publication of Harold Boulton's "Skye Boat Song."

Only the arranger of "Loch Lomond" is given credit, and the piece is described as an "Old Scottish Song." In light of the introductory remarks on how the songs were collected and chosen, this suggests that the editors found the song in "oral tradition" pretty much as they printed it.

Subject: RE: Origins: Loch Lomond
From: GUEST,IvanB
Date: 13 Jan 23 - 03:05 PM

Subject: RE: Origins: Loch Lomond
From: Jack Campin
Date: 14 Jan 23 - 11:25 AM

It's not in Cameron's Lyric Gems of Scotland (1856) which was a comprehensive collection of the trad-ish material sung at the time. So it's plausible that Songs of the North was what made it famous.

Subject: RE: Origins: Loch Lomond
From: Lighter
Date: 09 Oct 25 - 12:47 PM

Prompted by a clergyman in Massachusetts, Charles Rogers, LL.D., wrote to "Notes & Queries" (Apr. 20, 1872) to inquire the source of the following lines:

You'll take the high road and I'll take the low,
But I'll be in Scotland before ye;
Where I and my true love will never part again
From the bonnie, bonnie banks o' Ben Lomond.

In reply, "J. H." (May 18, 1872) sent a broadside text of "Flora's Lament for her Charlie," to the air of "Charlie! my Charlie!"
identical to that post by "Rossey" in 2023. "J.H." dates the broadside to 1854. "Flora's Lament" is notable here solely for its "you'll take the high road" chorus.

"J. H." also writes:

"The song will not be found in any of the collections, as it is of very inferior merit. It was very popular about fifty years ago, and is still sung at fairs and rustic merrymakings."

So the "high road" lines, with or without more of the song, had circulated to America by 1872.

Interestingly, "J.H." does not connect them to the now familiar "Loch Lomond" song - which he was presumably unaware of.

Subject: RE: Origins: Loch Lomond
From: Lighter
Date: 09 Oct 25 - 01:20 PM

Strathearn Herald (May 4, 1878):

"The following verse of another once common song in the district around Auchterarder was wont to be sung to the of 'The Bonnie Hoose o' Airlie':

"Ye'll take the high road, an' I'll tak the low road,
An' I'll be in Scotland afore ye;
For it's me an' ma true love, we'll meet once more again
On the bonnie, bonnie banks o' Loch Lomond."

The Dundee "Northern Warder" (Sept. 18, 1883) notes that the air of "Bonnie House o' Airly [sic]" was the tune used for "Flora's Lament"
and provides the text.

It certainly looks like the lyricist of "Loch Lomond" took the chorus from "Flora's Lament" and wrote a new song around it.

Subject: RE: Origins: Loch Lomond
From: GUEST,Jack Campin
Date: 10 Oct 25 - 12:30 PM

The first publication of the song was as a ballad sheet by Sanderson in Edinburgh - it seems he got it from Lady John Scott, who covered her tracks saying it was taken from a boy street singer in Edinburgh. I'm pretty sure that version has been posted here, possibly by me. A thread merge might be in order.

Nothing remotely like it is in Hogg's "Jacobite Relics" (1817-21) and he was thorough. It can't have existed before then.

Subject: RE: Origins: Loch Lomond
From: Lighter
Date: 10 Oct 25 - 12:51 PM

If Jim Dixon's 2008 posting is Lady Scott's song, only a few words resemble the familiar "Loch Lomond" - notably the "high road/ low road" phrase. It also appears by itself in MacColl's version of "Geordie."

Certainly confusing is that her very different song is called "The Bonnie Banks o' Loch Lomond." Only half as "bonnie."

Subject: RE: Origins: Loch Lomond
From: GUEST,Jack Campin
Date: 15 Oct 25 - 11:25 AM

I think Jim Dixon's first song is what I was thinking of. But it IS the version I mostly hear sung. The flowery Jacobite urban legend stuff isn't generally sung round here.