BS: There aren't any Gods (not even Jesus)

Subject: RE: BS: There aren't any Gods (not even Jesus)
From: Amos
Date: 06 Dec 07 - 11:24 AM

Well, there are plenty of reasons to celebrate Christmas that have nothing to do with Christ, amigo. The annual "We are surviving the cold white stuff", for example. Hope that there will be a Spring, at a time when it seems so far away. Celebrate human endurance, ingenuity, and the ability to survive on a cold piece of the planet. (At least, IIRC -- we don't do much cold here in San Diego).

Or, you could celbrate the spirit of human generosity and interdependent caring that comes to the fore during the season-when so many people bend over backwards to somehow find an object that will add to another's happiness and make or acquire it solely to give it to that person. That's a lot of human affinity, old son, and it requires no Godhead to be compelling.

Or, if you go in for that kind of thing, there's the annual opportunity to stroll down the street in a clump of friends singing. If you do that most times of the year you are likely to be condemned or even incarcerated. How's that for jolly?

Plus, there is the opportunity to gather up extra special foods and start a big family meal and have a roaring fire in the fireplace and sneak around looking at shiny wrapped packages. That's a hoot. Worth celebrating. Hell, just getting together with folks who are willing to say "I love you" is a fine annual event.

It also provides a great opportunity to do a yearly review on oneself to determine whether one has, in one's own estimation, been adequately nice or naughty, and determine a new course of action based on one's own best ethical perceptions of right living, right action, and so on.

Note that none of this requires any divine figures to jump into the mix.



A

Subject: RE: BS: There aren't any Gods (not even Jesus)
From: Stringsinger
Date: 06 Dec 07 - 11:32 AM

I think now that this is not a dialogue here. A dialogue to me is an exchange of useful information, it isn't a pissing contest.

Having read Dawkins and seeing his lectures, I think he is not as combative as he is made out to be. I see him as being very sensitive to people. His biggest complaint is that religion is often forced on children before they have a chance to decide for themselves about belief. I think this is fair.

I don't think one can be persuaded on anything through insults and anger.

As to tobacco, I don't ever want to be around it. The problem is that it is a highly addictive drug and unfortunately is not limited to the user. It can be spread through side-stream smoke. I don't see this as a religious or non-religious issue. It's just common sense that
smoking doesn't serve any useful or positive purpose.

Frank

Subject: RE: BS: There aren't any Gods (not even Jesus)
From: bobad
Date: 06 Dec 07 - 12:24 PM

"Fundamentalist Atheist as just as insane as Fundamentalist members of ANY Religion"

I don't agree with that statement, theism is a belief atheism is not.

Subject: RE: BS: There aren't any Gods (not even Jesus)
From: Georgiansilver
Date: 06 Dec 07 - 12:28 PM

One believes there is a God and one believes there is no God..so are both beliefs or not?

Subject: RE: BS: There aren't any Gods (not even Jesus)
From: Folkiedave
Date: 06 Dec 07 - 12:36 PM

f there wasn't a God then why celebrate Christmas (the birth of Christ, the son of God) then.

1. We were celebrating at that time in the UK long before Jesus was born. It's the change from dark to light nights.

2. No evidence whatsoever when Jesus was born - except for certain it wasn't December 25th. Nor was it 0 BC - morel likely 5/6 BC

I wouldn't take the bible as gospel if I were you!!

Subject: RE: BS: There aren't any Gods (not even Jesus)
From: Amos
Date: 06 Dec 07 - 12:48 PM

Most atheists will not assert there is no God, only that the evidence available to them does not support postulating that there is one. That is a very different proposition.

One states a proposition is just plain false; the other states that a proposition is not reasonable based on evidence to date.

One is a statement of faith, while the other is an effort to bring reason to bear on data.

A

Subject: Lyr Add: YULE (John F. Weldon)
From: john f weldon
Date: 06 Dec 07 - 01:07 PM

Aha, the discussion moves on to Yuletide, which of course, precedes Christianity by many millenia. Yule is for everyone! Here's a poem on the subject....


Yule: by John F. Weldon

When human hopes had just begun
In distant prehistoric times
We feared the fading of the sun
Especially in these Northern climes
For with the dark would come the chill
Frost and snow replacing rain
And we were left to wonder: Will
That sun e'er rise so high again?

And so we cut the deathless Pine
And hauled it to our cabins rude
And lit it up, that it would shine
Upon our gifts, and wine, and food.
The other Beasts looked on with scorn
That Man alone was such a fool
To celebrate the darkest morn
To dance and sing and call it Yule.

Yet all around the blazing Tree
Through chilly nights and shortened days
Mankind with cheerful revelry
Implored the sun to spread its Rays
And once a year, that darkest time
Mankind would thus enchant the sun
Which then would start its upward climb
Back when our dreams had just begun.

Now men have science and predict
The solstice and the equinox
To one ten-thousandth of a tick
With lasers and atomic clocks
Yet every year we quell our fears
With food and drink and song and dance
It works! The sun soon re-appears
So why then should we take a chance?

We'll toast with Mead, and Beer, and Stout
Wine and Whiskey, Rum and Gin!
For though the Winter howls without...
We'll keep the hope of spring within
So Bar the Door against the chill
Prepare that fine and mighty feast
For we were once and we are still
A puny, naked, frightened Beast.

Seasons greetings all!

Subject: RE: BS: There aren't any Gods (not even Jesus)
From: haddocker
Date: 06 Dec 07 - 02:29 PM

There seems to be enough material here for a dissertation, if that is what GUEST Ed is aiming for, but I agree with stringsinger. This is starting to deteriorate from dialogue to verbal combat. Each one's spiritual journey is distinct from all others, regardless of the starting point. As far as God is concerned, it is all about relationship, and we all have that with God, in varying degrees. So, I must ask GUEST Ed as to what his journey is all about, as well as the origins of this vehement denial of God and Jesus the Christ. So, GUEST Ed, let's get personal. Also, I have to ask: "Why are you bringing such a subject up in a site dedicated to traditional music?"

Subject: RE: BS: There aren't any Gods (not even Jesus)
From: GUEST,Number 6
Date: 06 Dec 07 - 02:36 PM

Good to see some Wicca/Pagan input here in this thread!

biLL

Subject: RE: BS: There aren't any Gods (not even Jesus)
From: Little Hawk
Date: 06 Dec 07 - 03:09 PM

Ah, yes, the great Yule Festival. What is now the Christmas holiday and celebration was indeed once a Pagan festival which celebrated the end of the longest night of the year in the northern hemisphere, Dec 22-23, and the subsequent return of the sun...as the days start getting longer after the winter solstice. It pre-existed Christianity for thousands of years...probably tens of thousands of years, in fact. The return of longer days is a VERY important event in Nature, as human life depends on the return of warm weather and the annual growing season.

The Romans grafted the Christian religion onto that ancient festival. It was common in those times to move a new religion onto old festival dates from previous religions.

I suspect they then added 3 days (Dec 23,24,25) to symbolize the 3 days that Christ supposedly lay in the tomb (or descended into Hades...whichever version you prefer) before rising on the symbolic 25th.

Interestingly enough, the old festival celebrated the rebirth of the sun (in the sky)....the new festival as designated by the Christians celebrated the rebirth of the Son (Jesus). I doubt that that was a mere coincidence. Many of the old religions saw the sun as a visible manifestation of God. Therefore God's sun = God's Son.

I am not stating my own beliefs here, merely speculating about some of the thinking that may have underlaid the Roman's decision to arbitrarily move Jesus' birthday to December 25th. His actual birthday appears to have been in the mid-Spring, not in December, so the Romans moved it to coincide with the Solstice celebrations...an adroit move, typical of the pragmatic Romans, who always knew how to combine religion and politics for maximum effect. ;-)

Amos, you said, "Well, LH, consider how much spice having a good enemy adds to life! How much drama!! Suddenly, there's tension, a plot, an obstacle to overcome, counter-forces to be out-manuvered! Intentions to be thwarted!! Survival to be gained!! Yaaaayyyyy, team!! Go, go, go!! Hurl 'em back to Nassau, Eli! Bulldog, bulldog!!"

True! Enemies are almost indispensible if you want a dramatic storyline in a book or a movie, aren't they? ;-) In real life, though, the truly wise man does not seek out enemies...unless he simply has no choice about the matter... Crazy Horse, for example, had no choice about the matter after a certain point of the White westward expansion, did he? (but being a Lakota Souix warrior, he would have sought out enemies regardless...they took doing that for granted...it was the path to honour and renown for warriors to fight enemies in that society)

And then you said, "But, of course, there really is only one Enemy, just as there is only one Friend and one God and one Mentor, and that is the Self.

Right on, brother. That's the hard, cold truth...but only one in 10,000 people will admit to it under most circumstances. People would always rather think the enemy is the "other guy", because it relieves them of all responsibility for their own actions, and it gives them full rein to hate, judge, and condemn.

Jesus (and Buddha) (and Krishna) advised against all of that kind of negative judgement of others, and, boy, was he (Jesus) detested by a lot of people for having done so! It ruins most people's fun totally when they hear his opinion on that matter. ;-) They just hate having their right to enjoy their hatred disallowed by some meddling holy man. Such holy men are to be considered lucky if they don't get crucified by an angry mob, matter of fact.

Subject: RE: BS: There aren't any Gods (not even Jesus)
From: GUEST,282RA
Date: 06 Dec 07 - 03:34 PM

>>I don't think tobacco companys have anything to do with Christianity. Why lay that on Christians alone?<<

Well, they want to tackle the abortion issue. They want to tackle the gay marriage issue. Neither of those have anything to do with Christianity either. There is not a word about abortion in the entire bible and David eulogizes Jonathan by saying his love was more pleasurable than that of women.

The point is, people need to have access to abortions--safe and legal abortions. Christians have no right to try and take that away.

Gay marriage doesn't hurt anybody whatsoever and Christians have no right to try and ban love between human beings.

Cigarettes otoh are a deadly poison sold openly to people by execs with no conscience who rake in millions a year if not billions, killing millions annually worldwide, poisoning even those who choose not to smoke and Christians don't seem to find this immoral enough to organize against it.

I'm saying if they REALLY care about doing something good for humanity then go after something like that and stop trying to hurt innocent people.

And I'm only talking about activist Christians. I don't care about nominal ones. This is for the ones who can't mind their own fucking business just have to try and save the whole world from itself. Christians who mind their own business I have no issue with.

Subject: RE: BS: There aren't any Gods (not even Jesus)
From: Wesley S
Date: 06 Dec 07 - 04:02 PM

282RA - I'm going to assume that you are very active in the movement to stop the use and sale of tobacco products. If organized religions were to get active in that regard - what would you suggest they do to get started? What actions are you taking - and how can organized religions follow in your footsteps?

Subject: RE: BS: There aren't any Gods (not even Jesus)
From: Little Hawk
Date: 06 Dec 07 - 05:15 PM

"Well, they want to tackle the abortion issue. They want to tackle the gay marriage issue. Neither of those have anything to do with Christianity either."

Agreed!

"There is not a word about abortion in the entire bible and David eulogizes Jonathan by saying his love was more pleasurable than that of women."

Agreed!

"The point is, people need to have access to abortions--safe and legal abortions. Christians have no right to try and take that away."

Agreed!!!


"Gay marriage doesn't hurt anybody whatsoever and Christians have no right to try and ban love between human beings."

Agreed!!!

"Cigarettes are a deadly poison sold openly to people by execs with no conscience who rake in millions a year if not billions, killing millions annually worldwide, poisoning even those who choose not to smoke...."

AGREED!!!! And how. I have hated cigarettes with a passion since I was old enough to breathe, let alone walk, and I come from a non-smoking family, and have never been a smoker. I consider the tobacco-selling business to be a giant drug-pushing operation, and I would be pleased to see it removed from the face of the Earth (Except for some traditional people such as Native Americans who grow, harvest, and smoke their own if they wish to, but do NOT sell it commercially to anyone. That I could put up with, because it's part of their ancient culture.)

"...and Christians don't seem to find this immoral enough to organize against it."

Ummm...that depends on which Christians you are referring to. There are many people opposed to smoking, and more than a few of them are Christians, but the vocally noticeable protesting Christian pressure groups who happen to bug you (and me) are so busy yelling about abortion and gay marriage and stuff like that that they perhaps haven't the time or energy to yell about tobacco abuse??? That would be my guess. Besides, would the press cover it if they did? Naw...not newsworthy. The press WILL cover it if they picket an abortion clinic or a movie they don't like....THAT's considered newsworthy! ;-) Reasonable Christians who mind their own business are NOT considered newsworthy, so don't expect to hear about them on the 6 O'Clock News.


"I'm saying if they REALLY care about doing something good for humanity then go after something like that and stop trying to hurt innocent people."

Agreed!

"And I'm only talking about activist Christians. I don't care about nominal ones. This is for the ones who can't mind their own fucking business just have to try and save the whole world from itself. Christians who mind their own business I have no issue with."

AGREED!!!!!!!!!!!!

See, we aren't so much at odds as you thought. In fact, we are barely at odds whatsoever when it comes to actual issues.

Subject: RE: BS: There aren't any Gods (not even Jesus)
From: GUEST,282RA
Date: 06 Dec 07 - 05:25 PM

>>Jesus (and Buddha) (and Krishna) advised against all of that kind of negative judgement of others, and, boy, was he (Jesus) detested by a lot of people for having done so!<<

And isn't it ironic that you have behaved in that fashion throughout this thread and been praised for it?

MEET THE GALLERY OF PEOPLE OBVIOUSLY MORE IMMATURE, CRASS AND PREJUDICED THAN LITTLE HAWK:

Whatever we cannot easily understand we call God; this saves much wear and tear on the brain tissues. --Edward Abbey

All thinking men are atheists. --Ernest Hemingway

When I think of all the harm [the bible] has done, I despair of ever writing anything to equal it. --Oscar Wilde

Must then a Christ perish in torment in every age to save those that have no imagination? --George Bernard Shaw

Faith is when you believe in something that no one in their right mind would believe. --Archie Bunker

She was a good Christian woman with a large respect for religion, though she did not, of course, believe any of it was true. --Flannery O'Connor

If we believe absurdities, we shall commit atrocities. --Voltaire

It is a curious thing...that every creed promises a paradise which will be absolutely uninhabitable for anyone of civilized taste. -- Evelyn Waugh

Men never do evil so completely and cheerfully as when they do it from religious conviction. --Blaise Pascal

Religion is what keeps the poor from murdering the rich. --Napoleon Bonaparte

In some awful, strange, paradoxical way, atheists tend to take religion more seriously than the practitioners. --Jonathan Miller

The religions of mankind must be classed among the mass-delusions of this kind. No one, needless to say, who shares a delusion ever recognizes it as such. --Sigmund Freud

I prayed for freedom twenty years but received no answer until I prayed with my legs. --Frederick Douglass

I'm frankly sick and tired of the political preachers across this country telling me as a citizen that if I want to be a moral person, I must believe in "A," "B," "C," and "D." Just who do they think they are? And from where do they presume to claim the right to dictate their moral beliefs to me? And I am even more angry as a legislator who must endure the threats of ever religious group who thinks it has some God-granted right to control my every roll call in the Senate. I am warning them today: I will fight them every step of the way if they try to dictate their moral convictions to all Americans in the name of "conservatism." --Barry Goldwater

The fact that a believer is happier than a skeptic is no more to the point than the fact that a drunken man is happier than a sober one. --George Bernard Shaw

You can't convince a believer of anything; for their belief is not based on evidence, it's based on a deep-seated need to believe. --Carl Sagan

When lip service to some mysterious deity permits bestiality on Wednesday and absolution on Sunday--cash me out. --Frank Sinatra

The churches have no confidence in each other. Why? Because they are acquainted with each other. --Robert Green Ingersoll

The more I study religions the more I am convinced that man never worshipped anything but himself. --Richard Francis Burton

If ignorance of nature gave birth to gods, knowledge of nature is made for their destruction. --Percy Bysshe Shelley

Just think of the tragedy of teaching children not to doubt. --Clarence Darrow

But who prays for Satan? Who, in eighteen centuries, has had the common humanity to pray for the one sinner that needed it most? --Mark Twain

Accustom a people to believe that priests, or any other class of men, can forgive sins, and you will have sins in abundance. --Thomas Paine

With soap, baptism is a good thing. --Robert Green Ingersoll

In order to exist just once in the world, it is necessary never again to exist. --Albert Camus

Certainty about the next life is simply incompatible with tolerance in this one. --Sam Harris

Properly read, the Bible is the most potent force for atheism ever conceived. --Isaac Asimov

All gods are dead except the god of war. --Eldredge Cleaver

Once miracles are admitted, every scientific explanation is out of the question. --Johannes Kepler

Religion provides the solace for the turmoil it creates. --Byron Danelius

Fanaticism consists in redoubling your effort when you have forgotten your aim. --George Santayana

Its hard to be religious when certain people are never incinerated by bolts of lightning. --Bill Watterson

If triangles made a god, they would give him three sides. --Montesquieu

We are punished by our sins, not for them. --Elbert Hubbard

Perhaps the whole root of our trouble, the human trouble, is that we will sacrifice all the beauty of our lives, will imprison ourselves in totems, taboos, crosses, blood sacrifices, steeples, mosques, races, armies, flags, nations, in order to deny the fact of death, which is the only fact we have. --James Baldwin

One is often told that it is a very wrong thing to attack religion, because religion makes men virtuous. So I am told; I have not noticed it. --Bertrand Russell

Let me alone. Good day. --Thomas Paine on his deathbed when asked by a clergyman if he would like to confess before Christ.

Subject: RE: BS: There aren't any Gods (not even Jesus)
From: GUEST,282RA
Date: 06 Dec 07 - 05:33 PM

>>282RA - I'm going to assume that you are very active in the movement to stop the use and sale of tobacco products. If organized religions were to get active in that regard - what would you suggest they do to get started? What actions are you taking - and how can organized religions follow in your footsteps?<<

Oh no, I'm not the tiniest bit active about it. Not at all. I'm not interested in saving humanity. I'm not in the business of crusading about your lack of morals. I'm not the tiniest bit concerned about your lifestyle. If you, however, feel you need to do those things, may I suggest organizing a massive protest against the tobacco giants so that some good will hopefully come out of all your efforts. If you don't want to do that then please go about your business and stay out of mine and I will gladly reciprocate.

The ONLY time I will ever go into the public arena and raise a huge fuss is when you feel you need to mind my business more than your own.

Subject: RE: BS: There aren't any Gods (not even Jesus)
From: Wesley S
Date: 06 Dec 07 - 05:38 PM

"I'm not in the business of crusading about your lack of morals."

Has this turned personal for you? You are assuming facts not in evidence. You know nothing about my morals. Chill just a little bit please. We're trying to have a discussion here. There's no need to attack anyone in particular.

Subject: RE: BS: There aren't any Gods (not even Jesus)
From: Little Hawk
Date: 06 Dec 07 - 05:41 PM

Why is it that you are so lacking in any inclination to find common ground with someone after disagreeing about something, 282? All you're doing is telling me how awful I am. Am I supposed to be hurt, burst into tears, and run away and hide? ;-)

This is really just a sad performance on your part. Give up the grudge match. Try to find something we agree about instead.

And, hey, how did you find all those great quotes so quickly? Yowsa! Pretty cool. Where could you even find the time? ;-)

Got a book of great quotes handy?

Subject: RE: BS: There aren't any Gods (not even Jesus)
From: Don Firth
Date: 06 Dec 07 - 05:44 PM

I see that this thread is in good hands.

Don Firth

Subject: RE: BS: There aren't any Gods (not even Jesus)
From: Peace
Date: 06 Dec 07 - 05:45 PM

What kids think of G-d.

You can 'maximize' the letters by putting your cursor at the lower right-hand corner of the lot.

Subject: RE: BS: There aren't any Gods (not even Jesus)
From: Wesley S
Date: 06 Dec 07 - 05:46 PM

Any list of quotes that uses Archie Bunker and "Calvin and Hobbs" to help make their points is alright by me.

Subject: RE: BS: There aren't any Gods (not even Jesus)
From: Don Firth
Date: 06 Dec 07 - 06:05 PM

I've had more than my fair share of encounters with Christian evangelists. Hell, when I was a hospital in Denver for a couple of months, I had a fundamentalist minister as a room mate! If you don't think that wasn't a royal pain in the ass, you have another think coming!

And during the Sixties, when I was packing my guitar around Seattle's University District, a local Bible college sent a horde of students to the U. District to save the souls of us misguided hippies (all folk singers are hippies, of course). I couldn't walk into bookstore or a pizza parlor without getting mugged at the door by some aggressive evangelizer trying to save my soul. I got pretty glib at blowing them off. Had to. Survival mechanism.

I have also encountered more than my fair share of evangelistic atheists.

And I can say this from a wealth of experience:    There are damned few people more aggressive and hostile than evangelistic atheists!

That's a fact!

Don Firth

Subject: RE: BS: There aren't any Gods (not even Jesus)
From: Little Hawk
Date: 06 Dec 07 - 06:10 PM

"Whatever we cannot easily understand we call God; this saves much wear and tear on the brain tissues. --Edward Abbey"

True, in the case of people who have a primitive, anthropomorphic understanding of "God", as they choose to call it.

"All thinking men are atheists. --Ernest Hemingway"

Patently and grossly untrue. But Hemingway wasn't perfect.

"When I think of all the harm [the bible] has done, I despair of ever writing anything to equal it. --Oscar Wilde"

Yeah, I can certainly sympathize with that.

"Must then a Christ perish in torment in every age to save those that have no imagination? --George Bernard Shaw"

Hmm. I don't know. Must one? I have no answer to that.

"Faith is when you believe in something that no one in their right mind would believe. --Archie Bunker"

No, faith is when you believe in something you cannot yet prove, and MANY in their right mind may believe similarly as you about it...or not...depends what it is, and who they are.

"She was a good Christian woman with a large respect for religion, though she did not, of course, believe any of it was true. --Flannery O'Connor"

For sure. She was concerned about fitting in to the society at the time. People are like that.

"If we believe absurdities, we shall commit atrocities. --Voltaire"

Yeah, that sounds very likely to me too.

"It is a curious thing...that every creed promises a paradise which will be absolutely uninhabitable for anyone of civilized taste. -- Evelyn Waugh"

That's amusing! ;-) It's witty. But it's not necessarily true. Some creeds promise reincarnation. Others promise a return to not a paradise, but a featureless void where all individuality ceases to be. Others promise no return whatsoever, but focus on life HERE and NOW.

"Men never do evil so completely and cheerfully as when they do it from religious conviction. --Blaise Pascal"

Sounds good, but it is equally true of men with extreme political convictions (like Pol Pot or Mao Tse Tung) AND men who are after a whole lot of fast MONEY! Al Capone was cheerful in his convictions too.

"Religion is what keeps the poor from murdering the rich. --Napoleon Bonaparte"

For awhile......! But not forever.

"In some awful, strange, paradoxical way, atheists tend to take religion more seriously than the practitioners. --Jonathan Miller"

That's true! Good point, Jonathan.

"The religions of mankind must be classed among the mass-delusions of this kind. No one, needless to say, who shares a delusion ever recognizes it as such. --Sigmund Freud"

Yeah. Freud had a few delusions of his own too...he had some truly weird ideas about male and female motivations. "Penis envy" is one that merits a good laugh, I think.

"I prayed for freedom twenty years but received no answer until I prayed with my legs. --Frederick Douglass"

Well, Duh! Ever heard the expression, "God helps those who help themselves."?

"I'm frankly sick and tired of the political preachers across this country telling me as a citizen that if I want to be a moral person, I must believe in "A," "B," "C," and "D." Just who do they think they are? And from where do they presume to claim the right to dictate their moral beliefs to me? And I am even more angry as a legislator who must endure the threats of ever religious group who thinks it has some God-granted right to control my every roll call in the Senate. I am warning them today: I will fight them every step of the way if they try to dictate their moral convictions to all Americans in the name of "conservatism." --Barry Goldwater"

Good for you, Barry. I'm right with you on that.

"The fact that a believer is happier than a skeptic is no more to the point than the fact that a drunken man is happier than a sober one. --George Bernard Shaw"

This depends on what the believer believes IN, doesn't it? Someone who believes he's going to hell is NOT happy! (p.s. I don't believe in Hell).

"You can't convince a believer of anything; for their belief is not based on evidence, it's based on a deep-seated need to believe. --Carl Sagan"

True. That's the trouble with George Bush. Well, it's one of the troubles with George Bush. ;-)

"When lip service to some mysterious deity permits bestiality on Wednesday and absolution on Sunday--cash me out. --Frank Sinatra"

I cashed Sinatra out a long time ago. But I'd have to agree with him on that one 100%.

"The churches have no confidence in each other. Why? Because they are acquainted with each other. --Robert Green Ingersoll"

Ha! LOL! Devastating. I agree wholeheartedly.

"The more I study religions the more I am convinced that man never worshipped anything but himself. --Richard Francis Burton"

Sounds about right to me. ;-)

"If ignorance of nature gave birth to gods, knowledge of nature is made for their destruction. --Percy Bysshe Shelley"

That's an interesting one. I'm sure that any god someone made could also be destroyed, all right.

"Just think of the tragedy of teaching children not to doubt. --Clarence Darrow"

BLOODY RIGHT! Children should question EVERYTHING.

"But who prays for Satan? Who, in eighteen centuries, has had the common humanity to pray for the one sinner that needed it most? --Mark Twain"

I'll agree with Mark Twain on that. Good point.

"Accustom a people to believe that priests, or any other class of men, can forgive sins, and you will have sins in abundance. --Thomas Paine"

DAMN BLOODY RIGHT!!!!!!

"With soap, baptism is a good thing. --Robert Green Ingersoll"

Yeah, I guess....but I have no concerns about the practice of baptism one way or another. Them as wants it can have it, I guess.

"In order to exist just once in the world, it is necessary never again to exist. --Albert Camus"

Yes..........and?

"Certainty about the next life is simply incompatible with tolerance in this one. --Sam Harris"

Who's certain about it??????

"Properly read, the Bible is the most potent force for atheism ever conceived. --Isaac Asimov"

Possibly, depending on who you look at it, I guess. Personally, I can say that it definitely had that effect on me more than once when I read this or that passage. There's some totally weird stuff in the Bible, and I do not consider it my spiritual guidebook.

"All gods are dead except the god of war. --Eldredge Cleaver"

Not true. The God of Money is alive and well, as are a whole bunch of other Gods that I listed a couple of days ago. The God of nationalism is another. Then there are the Gods of fame, youth, good looks, and being seen as a "winner". They're all very much alive.

"Once miracles are admitted, every scientific explanation is out of the question. --Johannes Kepler"

There are no miracles, only certain natural events as yet not understood.

"Religion provides the solace for the turmoil it creates. --Byron Danelius"

For some, that is true.

"Fanaticism consists in redoubling your effort when you have forgotten your aim. --George Santayana"

Yeah. Observe Bush in Iraq. But HAS he forgotten his aim? That's the question.

"Its hard to be religious when certain people are never incinerated by bolts of lightning. --Bill Watterson"

Ha! No, it isn't. It's just hard to be satisfied when they aren't.

"If triangles made a god, they would give him three sides. --Montesquieu"

Yes! And if rabbits made a god, he'd have big floppy ears, and no one would nibble on Sunday.

"We are punished by our sins, not for them. --Elbert Hubbard"

Eloquently put. I agree entirely.

"Perhaps the whole root of our trouble, the human trouble, is that we will sacrifice all the beauty of our lives, will imprison ourselves in totems, taboos, crosses, blood sacrifices, steeples, mosques, races, armies, flags, nations, in order to deny the fact of death, which is the only fact we have. --James Baldwin"

Most people do tend to deny death. I don't. I expect to die, probably within the next 10 to 15 years, and maybe sooner. I don't particularly mind dying when the time comes. It's one of the most obvious eventualities I can possibly name, and I have no doubt that it's going to happen.

"One is often told that it is a very wrong thing to attack religion, because religion makes men virtuous. So I am told; I have not noticed it. --Bertrand Russell"

LOL! Ever the wit, Bertrand. Nice one. ;-)

"Let me alone. Good day. --Thomas Paine on his deathbed when asked by a clergyman if he would like to confess before Christ"

Right on. I can definitely relate to Tom Paine on that one.

*************************


See? I agreed with most of that too. Whatcha gonna do now?

Subject: RE: BS: There aren't any Gods (not even Jesus)
From: Riginslinger
Date: 06 Dec 07 - 06:19 PM

It looks like there's a really big difference between Barry Goldwater and Ronald Reagan.

                   The Flannery O'Connor quote surprised me.

Subject: RE: BS: There aren't any Gods (not even Jesus)
From: number 6
Date: 06 Dec 07 - 06:39 PM

Whew .... reading this thread is beginning to feel like sitting through High Mass ... in Latin ... it all starts to sound like a droning chant.

biLL :)

Subject: RE: BS: There aren't any Gods (not even Jesus)
From: GUEST,282RA
Date: 06 Dec 07 - 06:40 PM

>>Has this turned personal for you? You are assuming facts not in evidence. You know nothing about my morals. Chill just a little bit please. We're trying to have a discussion here. There's no need to attack anyone in particular.<<

Since I do, in fact, know nothing about your morals, then it would be a good bet to assume my statement was simply rhetorical.

Subject: RE: BS: There aren't any Gods (not even Jesus)
From: GUEST,282RA
Date: 06 Dec 07 - 07:02 PM

My favorite child's letter to god was from an 8-year-old boy:

"Dear god, How did you first know you were god?"

Subject: RE: BS: There aren't any Gods (not even Jesus)
From: Bill D
Date: 06 Dec 07 - 07:27 PM

Right now, there are entire TV programs and segments 'examining' the various US presidential candidates' religious preference and the presumed relevance to their character and abilities.
It sort of started because Romney & Huckabee have deeply held positions which seem to cast doubt on their neutrality on various issues.
   What it has led to is a rush by ALL candidates to assure voters that they ALL 'believe in God and Jesus' and will uphold Christian values...though they **of course** would NEVER let those beliefs interfere with their job, should they become president.

What I see in all of this is that the supposed Constitutional "separation of Church and State" has become almost a joke. What does it mean when, as soon as a candidate declares he is running, he is immediately quizzed on his religious affiliation and it's details? ....Well, first it means that it is EXTREMELY unlikely that a person with no Christian affiliation could possibly be elected, no matter how well qualified.
   Next, it means that if he does declare an affiliation, entire block of voters will dissect it and issue proclamations of approval or warning.

Does anyone remember how Dwight Eisenhower had to search for a handy, low-key church to be 'seen' in?

   It has become a major issue in American politics and is affecting the very fabric of how we conduct elections. Doesn't the sight of various Theocracies in the world tell us how dangerous it is to **REQUIRE** a specific form of religious belief of our leaders? How long until one of these leaders moves to do and end run around that phrase "shall make no laws respecting an establishment of religion"?

   I try VERY hard to respect the rights of others TO believe as they choose, but I also see de facto if not de jure encroachment on MY rights to not believe. George Bush has done many things to reduce and limit the separation of Church & State, and I fear that more forces are at work to extend this, even if the most religiously committed candidates are not elected.

It is foolish to do as Ed did and and just state that "there aren't any gods"...but it is even more foolish to state that there are, and that we MUST accept a particular set if we are to have any voice in shepherding this country thru its various troubles.

Subject: RE: BS: There aren't any Gods (not even Jesus)
From: Riginslinger
Date: 06 Dec 07 - 07:28 PM

Mitt Romney says religion doesn't matter!

Subject: RE: BS: There aren't any Gods (not even Jesus)
From: bobad
Date: 06 Dec 07 - 07:53 PM

"There are damned few people more aggressive and hostile than evangelistic atheists!"

Don, I really don't know what you are referring to by the term "evangelistic atheist." An atheist, by my definition, is someone who does not even consider the question to which "GOD" is the answer. Perhaps a more accurate slur might be "evangelistic anti-theist."

Subject: RE: BS: There aren't any Gods (not even Jesus)
From: Bill D
Date: 06 Dec 07 - 08:20 PM

Those who have strong opinions on the matter often push 'straw man' definitions of words like 'atheist'.

Yes...there can be those who are evangelical about denying religion, and who can be just as obnoxious as those who knock on doors to sell their version OF religion...but often, 'atheist' merely means NOT accepting the many claims of others. It is silly to judge someone by a word they use without asking what THEY mean by it.

(Amos said about the same thing up above)

Subject: RE: BS: There aren't any Gods (not even Jesus)
From: john f weldon
Date: 06 Dec 07 - 08:44 PM

Question: Does anyone actually believe in God?

This is a tougher question than you might think.

I don't mean...

1) That belief in God is to be defended, on principle.

2) That belief in God is wholesome.

3) That God is a concept that causes good behaviour.

4) That there is some unifying force, some vague principal (such as the Tao) which one might call God.

5) That Gospel music is nice to hear and sing.

In my life I have met hundreds, possibly thousands of people. Many claim to believe in God, but, when pressed, admit that they don't really. It's a social necessity, a political necessity, a mean of community cohesiveness.

If you believe in an anthropomorphic being who intercedes in human affairs; answers prayer; created the universe; and deals with souls after they die....
...if you believe all of that, then you believe in God.

Less than that is mere pretence, with no more depth or importance than a Hallmark card.

cheers
JFW

Subject: RE: BS: There aren't any Gods (not even Jesus)
From: Q (Frank Staplin)
Date: 06 Dec 07 - 09:11 PM

I was born again on halloween. I looked up and saw the Great Pumpkin. Believers get to eat that great pie in the sky.

Subject: RE: BS: There aren't any Gods (not even Jesus)
From: GUEST,jim gillson
Date: 06 Dec 07 - 09:20 PM

Ok, guys. I just browsed my way to this thread. Here is what I think:
Nobody knows for sure if there is a God or not; nor do we know what
God is, if he or she or it does exist.

If we make the statement, "there is a God", or "there is no God", it
implies that we know our universe, the origins of and the development
of; and there is absolutely nothing left for us to research about our
universe, because we already know everything that happened. We don't.

The existence of God is a theory which people choose to believe, and
so is the the Big Bang theory. Why can't we all just believe what we
believe, not force anyone into our ways of thinking stating that
"our way is the right way"; and just get along? There shouldn't be
reason to argue the existence of God.

Quotation from this thread:
Subject: RE: BS: There aren't any Gods (not even Jesus)
From: Riginslinger
Date: 06 Dec 07 - 07:28 PM

Mitt Romney says religion doesn't matter! (End Quotation)

True. Belief in God, and being part of a religion to have to be
synonymous to each other. You can believe in God, but have no religion. However, people see the flaws in organized religion, and always relate God to organized religion; which may mislead them into
thinking that God does not exist, because of the way religions portray God.
Organized religions are just stating what they think God is, what he
or she or it is about; but nobody knows what God actually is.

We all have our belief systems, but we shouldn't force ours on anyone
else. Well, that is pretty much it.

Subject: RE: BS: There aren't any Gods (not even Jesus)
From: Riginslinger
Date: 06 Dec 07 - 09:27 PM

"'Just think of the tragedy of teaching children not to doubt. --Clarence Darrow'"

                     Probably the biggest religious sin of them all.

Subject: RE: BS: There aren't any Gods (not even Jesus)
From: Don Firth
Date: 06 Dec 07 - 11:28 PM

Evangelistic atheists.

bodad, if this thread wasn't started by an outright troll, then I'd say it was started by an evangelistic atheist. And our friend 282RA is most certainly an evangelistic atheist.

An evangelistic Christian is one who dedicates a good portion of his or her energies to trying to convert people to the Christian belief. An evangelistic atheist spends a good portion of his or her energies to trying to convert people to the belief that their is no God.

A fair number of scientists do believe in a God, but a large number do not believe in God. I don't know about those who believe in God (faith being what it is: belief without evidence), but I'm pretty sure that those who do not believe in God, if true scientists, would be willing to revise their opinions if they were presented with convincing evidence.

I don't think the same holds true for the evangelistic Christian or the evangelistic atheist. Both have faith that their belief is true. But neither knows.

Don Firth

Subject: RE: BS: There aren't any Gods (not even Jesus)
From: Janie
Date: 06 Dec 07 - 11:44 PM

What is being discussed, argued, debated, explored and/or ranted about in this thread?

Lots of common words that clearly hold different meanings for the various participants in this thread.



humanis vs ecological perspective, Substitute 'universal,' meaning all the universe (or universes) for ecological.

Consciousness - and follow the assorted links

Metaphor, especially the Discussion section, regarding meaning.

Meaning. See especially the Discussion of Meaning, and all subsections.

Definition and discussion of social institutions

Definitions of sacred

Religion

Joseph Campbell

Culture

definition of prejudice

Subject: RE: BS: There aren't any Gods (not even Jesus)
From: GUEST,Ian cookieless
Date: 07 Dec 07 - 07:49 AM

Jim: "The existence of God is a theory which people choose to believe, and so is the the Big Bang theory." They are not the same, Jim. Both are not theories. A theory is a temporary conclusion arrived at, based on evidence, with the proviso that, if the evidence is questioned or if new evidence arises, then the conclusion may change. That is the scientific method (or one definition of it, anyway). Belief in the existence of God is not, therefore, a theory. It is a belief system, a dogma, if you like, because no amount of new information will change the conclusion.

Subject: RE: BS: There aren't any Gods (not even Jesus)
From: Georgiansilver
Date: 07 Dec 07 - 08:34 AM

I really do wonder why God decided there should be a big bang anyway!

Subject: RE: BS: There aren't any Gods (not even Jesus)
From: Bill D
Date: 07 Dec 07 - 09:57 AM

why, it's simple...a little bang wouldn't have scattered all that 'stuff' far enough, and the neighborhood would have been crowded.

Subject: RE: BS: There aren't any Gods (not even Jesus)
From: GUEST,282RA
Date: 07 Dec 07 - 10:48 AM

>>Why is it that you are so lacking in any inclination to find common ground with someone after disagreeing about something, 282?<<

I only do that with you because we've gone through this before and nothing has changed. I'm not falling for it again. You and Don Firth have serious issues. This thread is an atheist thread and you two have attempted to turn it into "you atheists are so obnoxious" thread and then have the nerve to cry about how unreasonable and "evangelistic" I am. Btw, as I said before and which has been conveniently ignored, I DO NOT discuss religion with people in person. I simply do not.

We obviously have no common ground on this subject because in the end you will once again resort to your usual "I thought like you when I was young and stupid but I grew up too bad you didn't" garbage and I don't need to go through that again after thinking we had sorted that out. Obviously we haven't so let's just leave it at that.

>>All you're doing is telling me how awful I am. Am I supposed to be hurt, burst into tears, and run away and hide? ;-)<<

I don't care what you do. But I'm not going to go through this "hey we were saying the same thing after all" garbage because we aren't and the next thread someone popsts on this topic will prove it.

>>This is really just a sad performance on your part. Give up the grudge match. Try to find something we agree about instead.<<

We've gone through this before, Little Hawk. It's not going to work. Drop it. This was an atheist thread not a religious one so it is you and Firth who came here and made trouble not me.

>>And, hey, how did you find all those great quotes so quickly? Yowsa! Pretty cool. Where could you even find the time? ;-)<<

I'm on vacation.

>>Got a book of great quotes handy?<<

The Atheist's Bible. Picked up while Christmas shopping. Yes, I celebrate Christmas.

Subject: RE: BS: There aren't any Gods (not even Jesus)
From: Wesley S
Date: 07 Dec 07 - 11:34 AM

Why do you celibrate Christmas?

Subject: RE: BS: There aren't any Gods (not even Jesus)
From: Amos
Date: 07 Dec 07 - 11:41 AM

Wesley:

See Subject: RE: BS: There aren't any Gods (not even Jesus)
From: Amos - PM
Date: 06 Dec 07 - 11:24 AM


A

Subject: RE: BS: There aren't any Gods (not even Jesus)
From: Wesley S
Date: 07 Dec 07 - 11:55 AM

Amos - those are all good logical reasons I agree. For you. But I was wondering about 282RA's reasons to celebrate what most people consider a religious holiday. Why pick Christmas? Why not have a Menorah around the house?

Subject: RE: BS: There aren't any Gods (not even Jesus)
From: Bill D
Date: 07 Dec 07 - 11:56 AM

If there IS a god who sees all & knows all, he'll be laughing so hard at this sort of 'debate', that he'll cause warps in the space-time continuum and make it rain on the Sahara for 40 days.

It ain't worth it, folks.

Subject: RE: BS: There aren't any Gods (not even Jesus)
From: wysiwyg
Date: 07 Dec 07 - 12:13 PM

What is being discussed, argued, debated, explored and/or ranted about in this thread?

As I said in the thread's early days, When we discuss "God"'s existence, are we trying to speak of our opinion of the objective reality, or of whatever God we create, ourselves?

All the "there's no God" ranting in the world won't make THAT any more objectively true than all the ranting that there is so, a God. It's all opinion, and how you choose to live your life based on that opinion.

~Susan

Subject: RE: BS: There aren't any Gods (not even Jesus)
From: Don Firth
Date: 07 Dec 07 - 12:15 PM

I have no issues, 282RA. You seem to be the one with the issues.

I find both evangelisitic Christians and evangelistic atheists obnoxious. But within my experience, if you tell an evangelistic Christian loudly enough to f***-off, they usually say somthing like "I'll pray for you," and then they go away and leave you alone. Tell an evangelistic atheist to leave you alone and they get nasty and keep right on talking, follow you around, even into the bathroom, and generally accuse you of being mentally deficient--or accuse you of having "issues."

Have a nice day.

Don Firth

P. S. No, I take that back. I do have issues. I find both evangelistic Christians and evangelistic atheists a royal pain in the ass. Both of them are egotistical know-it-alls, and neither of them have anything more to go on than their faith. And they talk and talk and talk and talk and talk. . . .

Subject: RE: BS: There aren't any Gods (not even Jesus)
From: Peace
Date: 07 Dec 07 - 12:30 PM

I got one question, but it will be prefaced with a statement.

God does or doesn't exist. If God does, then some of you are wrong. If God doesn't, then some of you are wrong. That said, here's the question:

Why does my reality have to be your reality?

Subject: RE: BS: There aren't any Gods (not even Jesus)
From: Wesley S
Date: 07 Dec 07 - 12:35 PM

"Why does my reality have to be your reality?"

EXACTLY - It doesn't. But most people would rather be "right" than "happy".

Subject: RE: BS: There aren't any Gods (not even Jesus)
From: Jack Blandiver
Date: 07 Dec 07 - 12:43 PM

We can't all be right - but we can all be wrong...

Subject: RE: BS: There aren't any Gods (not even Jesus)
From: ranger1
Date: 07 Dec 07 - 12:48 PM

I have been reading this thread for quite a while. My thoughts about religion are this: everyone is entitled to their belief, atheist, Christian, secular humanist, Pagan, whatever. It's a personal thing, I don't mind anyone's beliefs as long as they don't try to push that belief onto me. Seems to me that's what LH, Peace, Wesley, Don Firth and Amos have been saying all along. Me, I have my beliefs, what they are isn't anyone else's business. I'm partnered with an atheist, he doesn't believe the same things I believe, but he's ok with me and my beliefs and I'm ok with him and his beliefs. One of the major tenets of most belief systems is tolerance, lots of religions don't practice it, but religion and faith/belief aren't the same thing.