Remember the Alamo?

Subject: Remember the Alamo?
From: greg stephens
Date: 15 Jul 07 - 04:24 PM

Now, many years ago when I was little I remmeber this song, which started, I fancy, "One hundred and eighty were challenged by Travis to die" Now, it is well known, and I could look it up for myself. But I would like advice on what is the best recording(the original?). Because my son is over in Texa visiting Austin and the Alamo, and he could pick me up a souvenir maybe(I am in England). Any advice? Best recording of the song, likely to be available on CD now in an Alamo record shop/souvenir shop, or an Austin shop?
Thanks.

Subject: RE: Remember the Alamo?
From: Peace
Date: 15 Jul 07 - 04:32 PM

No advice. But want to mention that the songwriter was Jane Bowers.

Subject: RE: Remember the Alamo?
From: Midchuck
Date: 15 Jul 07 - 04:33 PM

The Kingston Trio, on "The Kingston Trio at Large," their third album, I think - late 50's or very early 60's. That doesn't help you much unless it's been reissued on CD, but I can't believe it hasn't.

Peter.

Subject: RE: Remember the Alamo?
From: Severn
Date: 15 Jul 07 - 04:37 PM

No, what Alamo?

Which Motor City?

What Maine?



Find some sort of Tex Ritter collection. He had the original, I believe. I remember his version from an LP of all Western Movie themes that he did that an older sister had.


I think the Kingston Trio and even early acoustic Donovan also had turns at it.

Subject: RE: Remember the Alamo?
From: Q (Frank Staplin)
Date: 15 Jul 07 - 05:48 PM

Just a thought- the DVD, "Remember the Alamo Concert." Appearing are Los Lobos, Lyle Lovett, the Gipsy Kings. Ninety minutes, $12.99 at Amazon but probably in all the San Antonio shops. He may have to do some looking or phoning to find Tex Ritter or Kingston Trio cds with that song; perhaps in the Ritter box set.
I wish I knew the songs on that DVD.

The track is on the cd, Asleep at the Wheel Remembers the Alamo. A sound clip is at Amazon.com.

San Antonio has five missions- he may be interested in seeing them. A couple are well-preserved.

Subject: RE: Remember the Alamo?
From: Georgiansilver
Date: 15 Jul 07 - 06:11 PM

I love Donovans version.......

Subject: Lyr Add: REMEMBER THE ALAMO (Jane Bowers)
From: Rapparee
Date: 15 Jul 07 - 08:19 PM

REMEMBER THE ALAMO
Artist (Band): Kingston Trio
By Jane Bowers

A hundred and eighty were challenged by Travis to die.
A line that he drew with his sword when the battle was nigh.
"The man who would fight to the death cross over but he who that would live better fly,"
And over the line stepped a hundred and seventy-nine.

CHORUS: Hi! Up! Santa Anna, we're killing your soldiers below,
So the rest of Texas will know
And remember the Alamo!

Jim Bowie lay dyin', his powder was ready and dry.
From flat on his back, Bowie killed him a few in reply,
And young Davy Crockett was smilin' and laughin'. The challenge was fierce in his eye.
For Texas and freedom, a man more than willin' to die. (Chorus)

A courier sent to the battlements, bloody and loud.
With words of fare well in the letters he carried were proud.
"Grieve not, little darlin', my dyin' if Texas is sovereign and free.
We'll never surrender and ever will liberty be!" (Chorus)

Remember the Alamo! Remember the Alamo! Remember the Alamo!

Subject: RE: Remember the Alamo?
From: kendall
Date: 15 Jul 07 - 08:31 PM

If they had obeyed orders, they wouldn't have been trapped in the first place.
If they hadn't started a rebellion against the Mexican government, there would have been no war.

...young Davey Crockett...was actually over 50.

Manifest destiny was nothing more than grand theft.

Subject: RE: Remember the Alamo?
From: Q (Frank Staplin)
Date: 15 Jul 07 - 08:49 PM

kendall- true, but beware that unreconstructed Texan who's hunting for you.

Subject: RE: Remember the Alamo?
From: Rapparee
Date: 15 Jul 07 - 08:59 PM

Didn't they move the Alamo to its present location from it's original site outside the city limits?                8-)

Subject: RE: Remember the Alamo?
From: Midchuck
Date: 15 Jul 07 - 09:18 PM

If they hadn't started a rebellion against the Mexican government, there would have been no war.

Well, if we hadn't started a rebellion against the British government, there would have been no war!

(Or are you just grumpy because after 225 years of independence from Britain, you gave yours up?)

Peter

Subject: RE: Remember the Alamo?
From: Rapparee
Date: 15 Jul 07 - 09:23 PM

Fifty seems young now...I guess it all depends on your perspective.

Subject: RE: Remember the Alamo?
From: Q (Frank Staplin)
Date: 15 Jul 07 - 09:30 PM

Rapaire- no, never moved- the City grew to enclose it. It was extensively reconstructed, replacing the destroyed roof, etc.
It seems Crockett came to Texas to get land and restore his fortune.

Subject: RE: Remember the Alamo?
From: Rapparee
Date: 15 Jul 07 - 09:37 PM

Goes to show you what happens when you move to Texas.

Subject: RE: Remember the Alamo?
From: Tiger
Date: 15 Jul 07 - 09:50 PM

Johnny Cash ... beats the KT to a pulp.

Subject: RE: Remember the Alamo?
From: Little Hawk
Date: 15 Jul 07 - 10:12 PM

Some other interesting stuff has come to light (according to historians). The "line in the sand" was apparently apocryphal. It makes a good story, but it very likely didn't happen. What did happen was that Travis made a stirring speech to the men at the eleventh hour, letting them know that no help was coming. It was probably a good speech, all right, but he didn't draw a line in the sand, and no one crossed such a line.

This is not in any way to detract from the heroism shown by the men who fought and died there. (both Texans and Mexicans) The Texans put up a very brave fight. The Mexicans took very heavy losses in order to take the walls.

There is some indication that a few Texans were captured alive at the battle's end, and executed, and that Crockett may have been among those.

Also, the old story was that Jim Bowie fell off the wall and injured his back. The new story is that he probably never fell off the wall, but collapsed due to illness. He was bedridden when the final assault came. It is assumed that he fought bravely from his sickbed, but no one knows for sure.

The most accurate movie about it so far was the one done a few years back. There was no "line in the sand" scene in that movie, but there was a speech that Travis gave. In the movie Crockett was captured at the battle's end (after putting up a very good fight) and executed shortly afterward. The movie was excellent, because it humanized both the Texans and the Mexicans, and showed some of the moral complexities of the period. Slavery, for instance, was illegal in Mexico, but legal in the USA. Jim Bowie was a slave owner, and had been for a long time. Bowie was also a heavy drinker and a hellraiser and a man who engaged in land fraud and chicanery, although he seems to have had a number of good points, being also a man of great courage and a natural leader. He was quite popular among the Texans. He got along very badly with Travis, and Crockett (another natural leader) attempted to mediate between them, albeit not with much success. There were quite a few Mexicans who fought on the side of the Texan-Americans, and the movie shows that as well. I appreciated the effort the filmakers went to to present a historically accurate film.

Subject: RE: Remember the Alamo?
From: Allan C.
Date: 15 Jul 07 - 10:16 PM

First song I ever recorded! It was on a wire recorder - anybody remember them????

Subject: RE: Remember the Alamo?
From: Peace
Date: 15 Jul 07 - 10:19 PM

Got my first as a teenager in the 1890s.

Subject: RE: Remember the Alamo?
From: Q (Frank Staplin)
Date: 15 Jul 07 - 10:23 PM

A long, long time ago-

Subject: RE: Remember the Alamo?
From: GUEST,Leave me off the mailing lists
Date: 15 Jul 07 - 11:00 PM

I grew up in San Antonio and live near Austin. Tell your boy to look at Waterloo Records, 6th & Lamar, in Austin. Broadest selection of local and regional music that I'm aware of.

If you want the Ritter recording and own a turntable, you can have my LP copy of Ritter's "Songs from the Western Screen." Photo of it at the link below:

http://mail.moment.net/~michael/TexRitter.JPG

'Remember the Alamo' kicks off Side B. Jane Bowers songwriter. The album is NM--I graded them years ago before I sold my turntable and put the records away. This is a Stetson record, reissue of a 1958 Capitol record. Mono.

I have corrugated mailers, and you're welcome to the record, but you'll need to pay shipping. Don't know if you're in Britain, Australia or where, but shipping should cost $12 US or so. Can let you know exactly after it's packaged.

If you're interested, just email me at [e-mail]

Subject: RE: Remember the Alamo?
From: GUEST
Date: 15 Jul 07 - 11:06 PM

Read again and sat that you're in England. That means I still don't know what the postage is. But I can find out.

---

Please remember to put a consistent poster name in the "from" box when you post a message. Anonymous messages risk deletion.
Thanks.
-Joe Offer, Forum Moderator-

Subject: RE: Remember the Alamo?
From: GUEST,Gene
Date: 16 Jul 07 - 02:08 AM

I'll take Marty Robbins rendition of

'The Ballad Of The Alamo' over them all.....

Email: [e-mail]

Subject: RE: Remember the Alamo?
From: Darowyn
Date: 16 Jul 07 - 03:03 AM

I learned the song from Donovan's version years ago, but coming from my Yorkshire background, I have to make one tiny change to the lyric.
"Hey-up Santy Anna" could either be a friendly greeting or it could mean "Look out!" in many northern counties.
Either way the effect would be unintentionally comic.
So I sing "Hey, Look, Santy Anna, They're killing your soldiers below"
I recommend the idea to the house ( or the British part of it anyway)
Cheers
Dave

Subject: RE: Remember the Alamo?
From: goatfell
Date: 16 Jul 07 - 03:16 AM

so did we in Scotland gave up our freedom in 1706/07 to the English

Parcel of rougues (the Scottish MP's) at that time.

Subject: RE: Remember the Alamo?
From: goatfell
Date: 16 Jul 07 - 03:18 AM

And then the Welsh long before us, but mind you they Lost theirs to the English in 15th Cent?

Subject: RE: Remember the Alamo?
From: greg stephens
Date: 16 Jul 07 - 03:45 AM

Many thanks to all for this information. Very interesting, and I will certainly follow some of it up.

Subject: RE: Remember the Alamo?
From: KeithofChester
Date: 16 Jul 07 - 03:52 AM

The Remember The Alamo is on my only Donovan CD: Donovan - the EP Collection. It was originally on his first album.

There is apparently a Johnny Cash version around somewhere too. At least that is what it says here

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Remember_the_Alamo_(song)

Subject: RE: Remember the Alamo?
From: GUEST,smileyman
Date: 16 Jul 07 - 04:10 AM

Well I don't know what album it's on, but there's a version available on YouTube. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=E1ZZQp41I6U&mode=related&search=

Subject: RE: Remember the Alamo?
From: goatfell
Date: 16 Jul 07 - 04:49 AM

Aye Donavan sang it in the 1960's and so does Johnny Cash

Subject: RE: Remember the Alamo?
From: GUEST,Black Hawk unlogged
Date: 16 Jul 07 - 07:32 AM

Johnny Cash version is on his 'Ring of Fire' LP

Subject: RE: Remember the Alamo?
From: GUEST,Sam Adams
Date: 16 Jul 07 - 07:42 AM

"If ye love wealth greater than liberty, the tranquility of servitude
greater than the animating contest for freedom, go home from us in peace. We
seek not your counsel, nor your arms. Crouch down and lick the hand that
feeds you. May your chains set lightly upon you; and may posterity forget
that ye were our countrymen." –Samuel Adams

Subject: RE: Remember the Alamo?
From: MARINER
Date: 16 Jul 07 - 12:04 PM

Hey Little Hawk ,does that mean that Moses Rose of Texas never existed,? (Moses was the man who decided not to stay on and fight.)

Subject: RE: Remember the Alamo?
From: Little Hawk
Date: 16 Jul 07 - 12:20 PM

According to what I've read, there was the one man who slipped away and got through the Mexican lines, just as you say. That's because Travis had advised that anyone who wished to try for it could freely go...and that guy did. But there was most likely still no literal line drawn in the sand....no dramatic moment when the men crossed the line and stood together.

The "line in the sand" appeals to people's sense of drama, so it's a story that has stuck. It makes a great movie scene. They even have Jim Bowie carried across the line on his cot in some movies.

In real life things usually happen in a quieter way than that. I think what probably happened was that Travis gave his speech, so that the men would know what the real situation was...no help coming...virtually no chance of survival for those who stayed...rather slim chances of being able to slip away before the attack. He stated his own determination to fight to the end. He left his men the option to stay and fight beside him or to attempt to escape individually if they chose. One of them chose to try for it. The rest stayed and died there.

It would not have been an easy decision, either way. Given the way men feel about their buddies they've been fighting beside for 12 days under fire, though, it's not surprising to me that most of them elected to hunker down behind the walls and face what came.

Subject: RE: Remember the Alamo?
From: Greg B
Date: 16 Jul 07 - 12:28 PM

They probably should have hidden in the basement,
or at least left on the bicycle.

Subject: RE: Remember the Alamo?
From: MARINER
Date: 16 Jul 07 - 04:11 PM

Apparently Moses Rose was a tough , experienced fighter ,he just didn't think the cause he was caught up in was worth dieing for.(Or so some song says.)

Subject: RE: Remember the Alamo?
From: Q (Frank Staplin)
Date: 16 Jul 07 - 04:32 PM

I have refreshed an older thread, since this thread has degenerated into repetition.

Subject: RE: Remember the Alamo?
From: GUEST,wowmusic
Date: 23 Jul 07 - 03:17 PM

The Remember the Alamo Concert is being released to theaters July 31 st in Texas and California. Hopefully..going wider

Artists and song list at www.wowmg.com

Subject: RE: Remember the Alamo?
From: Uncle Phil
Date: 24 Jul 07 - 03:25 AM

Here are a few random thoughts after reading both threads.

The siege of the Alamo gave Houston time he needed to put together an army and gutted the Mexican army. Its meaning and importance can be read on any map of North America. Or, for that matter, what would a map of Europe look if the US had remained a small nation unable to join the allies in WWI or WWII ? What would a map of the Orient look like if the US had not become a Pacific nation and able to oppose the Japanese in WWII? I don't know either, but it's interesting to speculate.

The Texas revolution did not begin as a war for independence. The Texicans thought themselves to be loyal Mexicans fighting to restore the Mexican constitution of 1824. The tyrant Santa Anna did not take command of the Mexican Army in response to a Texican declaration of independence. Texas did not declare independence until March 2, 1836, four days before the Alamo fell at the end of Santa Anna's 13 day siege. It's very unlikely that any of the Texicans at the Alamo ever knew that Texas had declared its independence.

An opinion -- the line in the sand is a good story, but it just doesn't sound like Travis. Consider his own words; "Colonel Neill and myself have come to the solemn resolution that we will rather die in these ditches than give them up." "If my countrymen do not rally to my relief, I am determined to perish in the defense of this place, and my bones shall reproach my country for her neglect.", "… I am determined to sustain myself as long as possible and die like a soldier who never forgets what is due his honor and that of his country. Victory or Death". Can you picture him offering his men the opportunity to slink off into the night?

The Texicans were fighting to maintain slavery? Well, the planter class certainly had slaves and I'll bet they wanted to keep them. However I've never read anything from those days that even suggests that slavery was a major issue. For example, Eyewitness to the Alamo is a collection of the known writings of letters, orders, notices, etc from eyewitnesses to the battle. The word slavery doesn't even appear in the index. (Bill Groneman, Eyewitness to the Alamo, ISBN:1-55622-502-4). Nor does the word slavery appear in the index of Wallace O. Chariton, 100 Days in Texas, ISBN:1-55622-131-2, a collection of similar writings, all from the period from 9 December 1835 to 17 March 1836.

Body slavery was illegal in Mexico. That's not the whole story. Peonage, land slavery, provided the labor necessary for the encomiendas basic to much of the economy in Spanish colonies such as Mexico. Peonage continued after Mexico declared its independence in 1821. Peonage lasted in Hispanic America long after slavery ended in the United States. Try Googling peonage or encomiendas.

The transAppalachian pioneers were not serfs or peasants. They were generally literate -- at least enough to read newspapers and scripture, and they kept up with current events well enough to govern themselves. Community schools were the norm. Read any good biography of Sam Houston to learn how the community schools worked. (Marshall De Bruhl, Sword of San Jacinto: A Life of Sam Houston, ISBN: 0-679-75302-8) Not all the defenders were frontiersmen; many were professional men – lawyers, doctors, tradesmen, storekeepers. (T.R. Fehrenbach, Lonestar: A History of Texas and Texans, ISBN:0-517-06490-1). If you are reading a history book and the author starts talking about illiterate American pioneers you can bet he doesn't know much about history.

The Texicans stole Texas from the Mexicans who lived there? The problem is that neither Spain nor Mexico ever successfully settled Texas. There are a couple reasons. First there were not enough peaceful Indians to reduce to peonage and, therefore, no way to establish encomiedas that their economy required. Second, Spanish military based in Presidios couldn't protect the Hispanic population from aggressive, highly mobile Indians. The Mexican frontier was in retreat. For example, the Alamo itself was abandoned as a Mission in the 1790's.

What could the Spanish and Mexicans do? Invite land-hungry Anglos in to provide a buffer between the Hispanic settlers and the hostile Indians. It didn't work. Anglos, notably Austin and later Houston made friends with the Indians, who simply bypassed the Anglos and continued to raid the Mexicans as they always had. (Sadly good relations between the Anglo settlers and Indians did not continue as we all know.) . Put another way, if the Spanish/Mexicans had ever settled Texas then the Anglos would never have been invited to settle there.

Ok, but why are there so many really good Mexican Restaurants in San Antonio if Mexicans never settled Texas? OK, I lied. There has been a large-scale, successful Hispanic settlement of Texas, but it didn't begin until 1911 when large numbers of folks fled to Texas from a civil war in Mexico. As hard as it is to believe today, there were more German/Americans than Mexican/Americans in San Antonio in 1900(Fehernbach, Lonestar). A good related article is: http://www.digitalhistory.uh.edu/mexican_voices/voices_display.cfm?id=90

Comparing the histories of Mexico and the United States is interesting. At the time of the American Revolution Mexico was the larger, richer, probably more populous country, and had been settled for hundreds of years. But, by the 1890's the US was equivalent to Mexico in population and growing rapidly. By the 1830's the US was probably had more than double Mexico's population and was still rapidly growing.

Spain and then Mexico worried a great deal about a rapidly expanding US threatening their northern frontier. The Spanish even considered setting up a French or English colony in Texas as a buffer between the US and Mexico. The US had offered to purchase Texas from Mexico twice, but finally agreed by stay out of Texas (Google the Treaty of Guadalupe Hidalgo). There is no historical evidence that the US ever violated the treaty, though Fehrenbach reports Mexican historians have always suspected that the US was behind the Texas revolution. (T.R. Fehrenbach Blood and Fire, ISBN:0-512-476673)

Opinion again -- there's no reason to think that the veteran, combat-hardened Mexican army, armed with muskets and bayonets, couldn't have defeated the regular US Army of the time, also armed with muskets and bayonets. Cinco de Mayo, a holiday in these parts, commemorates a Mexican army victory over the similarly armed French regulars.

Unfortunately for Santa Anna the Texican soldiers were not regulars. They were irregulars, mostly raised on the frontier to use firearms with, to the Mexicans, unimaginable efficiency and accuracy. The Texican long rifles were accurate out to 250-300 yards compared to, maybe, 100 yards for the Mexican muskets. The result was the Santa Anna's army took more casualties than it could sustain and was eventually defeated at San Jacinto.

I can't believe I typed the whole thing.

- Phil

Subject: RE: Remember the Alamo?
From: goatfell
Date: 24 Jul 07 - 03:41 AM

i was watching a film about the life of Christ, and John Wayne was in it, I was looking for his horse and saying 'get off your horse and drink your milk'

and then a few cowboys and idians to turn up

no wonder you lot won at the almo John Wayne was there to help you.

Subject: RE: Remember the Alamo?
From: GUEST,meself
Date: 24 Jul 07 - 08:22 AM

Uncle Phil - Thanks for that outline. Very informative!

Subject: RE: Remember the Alamo?
From: Mark Ross
Date: 24 Jul 07 - 10:08 AM

That fellow Rose who declined to die for Texas, was that the origin of the song THE YELLOW ROSE OF TEXAS?

Mark Ross

Subject: RE: Remember the Alamo?
From: GUEST,Phil Garringer
Date: 24 Jul 07 - 05:11 PM

I would urge anyone who has a chance to visit the Alamo. I have been there about a dozen times.

There is something about fighting a desperate and futile fight against impossible odds that ensures your place in history and mythology. Just ask John Brown or Padraic Pearse.

The list of the Alamo defenders...

Abamillo, Juan (Texas)

Allen, Robert (Virginia)

Andross, Miles DeForrest (Vermont)

Autry, Micajah (North Carolina)

Badillo, Juan A. (Texas)

Bailey, Peter James III (Kentucky)

Baker, Isaac G. (Arkansas)

Baker, William Charles M. (Missouri)

Ballentine, John J. (Pennsylvania)

Ballantine, Richard W. (Scotland)

Baugh, John J. (Virginia)

Bayliss, Joseph (Tennessee)

Blair, John (Tennessee)

Blair, Samuel (Tennessee)

Blazeby, William (England)

Bonham, James Butler (South Carolina)

Bourne, Daniel (England)

Bowie, James (Kentucky)

Bowman, Jesse B. (Tennessee)

Brown, George (England)

Brown, James (Pennsylvania)

Brown, Robert (Unknown)

Buchanan, James (Alabama)

Burns, Samuel E. (Ireland)

Butler, George, D. (Missouri)

Cain, John (Pennsylvania)

Campbell, Robert (Tennessee)

Carey, William R. (Virginia)

Clark, Charles Henry (Missouri)

Clark, M.B. (Mississippi)

Cloud, Daniel William (Kentucky)

Cochran, Robert E. (New Hampshire)

Cottle, George Washington (Missouri)

Courtman, Henry (Germany)

Crawford, Lemuel (South Carolina)

Crockett, David (Tennessee)

Crossman, Robert (Pennsylvania)

Cummings, David P. (Pennsylvania)

Cunningham, Robert (New York)

Darst, Jacob C. (Kentucky)

Davis, John (Kentucky)

Day, Freeman H.K. (Unknown)

Day, Jerry C. (Missouri)

Daymon, Squire (Tennessee)

Dearduff, William (Tennessee)

Dennison, Stephen (England or Ireland)

Despallier, Charles (Louisiana)

Dewall, Lewis (New York)

Dickinson, Almeron (Tennessee)

Dillard, John Henry (Tennessee)

Dimpkins, James R. (England)

Duvalt, Andrew (Ireland)

Espalier, Carlos (Texas)

Esparza, Gregorio (Texas)

Evans, Robert (Ireland)

Evans, Samuel B. (New York)

Ewing, James L. (Tennessee)

Faunterloy, William Keener (Kentucky)

Fishbaugh, William (Unknown)

Flanders, John (Massachusetts)

Floyd, Dolphin Ward (North Carolina)

Forsyth, John Hubbard (New York)

Fuentes, Antonio (Texas)

Fuqua, Galba (Alabama)

Garnett, William (Virginia)

Garrand, James W. (Louisiana)

Garrett, James Girard (Tennessee)

Garvin, John E. (Unknown)

Gaston, John E. (Kentucky)

George, James (Unknown)

Goodrich, John C. (Virginia)

Grimes, Albert Calvin (Georgia)

Guerrero, José María (Texas)

Gwynne, James C. (England)

Hannum, James (Pennsylvania)

Harris, John (Kentucky)

Harrison, Andrew Jackson (Tennessee)

Harrison, William B (Ohio)

Hawkins, Joseph M. (Ireland)

Hays, John M. (Tennessee)

Heiskell, Charles M. (Tennessee)

Herndon, Patrick Henry (Virginia)

Hersee, William Daniel (England)

Holland, Tapley (Ohio)

Holloway, Samuel (Pennsylvania)

Howell, William D. (Massachusetts)

Jackson, Thomas (Ireland)

Jackson, William Daniel (Kentucky)

Jameson, Green B. (Kentucky)

Jennings, Gordon C. (Pennsylvania)

Jimenes (Ximenes), Damacio (Texas)

Johnson, Lewis (Wales)

Johnson, William (Pennsylvania)

Jones, John (New York)

Kellog, John Benjamin (Kentucky)

Kenney, James (Virginia)

Kent, Andrew (Kentucky)

Kerr, Joseph (Louisiana)

Kimbell, George C. (Pennsylvania)

King, William Philip (Texas)

Lewis, William Irvine (Virginia)

Lightfoot, William J. (Virginia)

Lindley, Jonathan L. (Illinois)

Linn, William (Massachusetts)

Losoya, Toribio (Texas)

Main, George Washington (Unknown)

Malone, William T. (Georgia)

Marshall, William (Tennessee)

Martin, Albert (Rhode Island)

McCafferty, Edward (Unknown)

McCoy, Jesse (Tennessee)

McDowell, William (Pennsylvania)

McGee, James (Ireland)

McGregor, John (Scotland)

McKinney, Robert (Tennessee)

Melton, Eliel (Georgia)

Miller, Thomas R. (Tennessee)

Mills, William (Tennessee)

Millsaps, Isaac (Mississippi)

Mitchell, Edwin T. (Unknown)

Mitchell, Napoleon B. (Unknown)

Mitchusson, Edward F. (Virginia)

Moore, Robert B. (Virginia)

Moore, Willis A. (Mississippi)

Musselman, Robert (Ohio)

Nava, Andrés (Texas)

Neggan, George (South Carolina)

Nelson, Andrew M. (Tennessee)

Nelson, Edward (South Carolina)

Nelson, George (South Carolina)

Northcross, James (Virginia)

Nowlan, James (England)

Pagan, George (Unknown)

Parker, Christopher Adam (Unknown)

Parks, William (North Carolina)

Perry, Richardson (Texas)

Pollard, Amos (Massachusetts)

Reynolds, John Purdy (Pennsylvania)

Roberts, Thomas H. (Unknown)

Robertson, James Waters (Tennessee)

Robinson, Isaac (Scotland)

Rose, James M. (Ohio)

Rusk, Jackson J. (Ireland)

Rutherford, Joseph (Kentucky)

Ryan, Isaac (Louisiana)

Scurlock, Mial (North Carolina)

Sewell, Marcus L. (England)

Shied, Manson (Georgia)

Simmons, Cleveland Kinlock (South Carolina)

Smith, Andrew H. (Unknown)

Smith, Charles S. (Maryland)

Smith, Joshua G. (North Carolina)

Smith, William H. (Unknown)

Starr, Richard (England)

Stewart, James E. (England)

Stockton, Richard L. (New Jersey)

Summerlin, A. Spain (Tennessee)

Summers, William E. (Tennessee)

Sutherland, William DePriest (Unknown)

Taylor, Edward (Tennessee)

Taylor, George (Tennessee)

Taylor, James (Tennessee)

Taylor, William (Tennessee)

Thomas, B. Archer M. (Kentucky)

Thomas, Henry (Germany)

Thompson, Jesse G. (Arkansas)

Thomson, John W. (North Carolina)

Thruston, John, M. (Pennsylvania)

Trammel, Burke (Ireland)

Travis, William Barret (South Carolina)

Tumlinson, George W. (Missouri)

Tylee, James (New York)

Walker, Asa (Tennessee)

Walker, Jacob (Tennessee)

Ward, William B. (Ireland)

Warnell, Henry (Unknown)

Washington, Joseph G. (Kentucky)

Waters, Thomas (England)

Wells, William (Georgia)

White, Isaac (Alabama or Kentucky)

White, Robert (Unknown)

Williamson, Hiram James (Pennsylvania)

Wills, William (Unknown)

Wilson, David L. (Scotland)

Wilson, John (Pennsylvania)

Wolf, Anthony (Unknown)

Wright, Claiborne (North Carolina)

Zanco, Charles (Denmark)

Subject: RE: Remember the Alamo?
From: Stilly River Sage
Date: 24 Jul 07 - 05:48 PM

over in Texa visiting Austin and the Alamo

Tell him he'll have better luck finding the Alamo if he goes to San Antonio to look for it.

The Handbook of Texas Online (best source overall online) and the entry on Alamo. (San Antonio de Valero Mission)

Wikipedia

SRS

Subject: RE: Remember the Alamo?
From: Little Hawk
Date: 24 Jul 07 - 06:07 PM

Great post, Uncle Phil! I always enjoy hearing from someone who is willing to look beneath the surface, check out all the angles, and be even-handed in interpreting them.

In addition to his heavy losses at the Alamo, Santa Ana made the further error of dividing his remaining forces unnecessarily before marching to his catastrophic defeat at San Jacinto. I get the impression he was a very overconfident and reckless commander. He must have thought that since he was fighting mere irregulars ("piratas" as he called them), he had no reason to respect their prowess in the field.

Perhaps he got that idea due to previous victories he had scored against rebellious forces in Mexico. At any rate, the "Napoleon of the West" certainly miscalculated.

If he had accepted the surrender of some of the defenders of the Alamo...which might well have happened if he had offered decent terms...he would also not have aroused such a violently vengeful reaction in the army of the Texicans. And he would have had a few bargaining chips for negotiation.

Again, Santa Ana seems not to have been interested in negotiating with "piratas"... He set the stage perfectly for his own comeuppance.

Subject: RE: Remember the Alamo?
From: GUEST,Leave me off the mailing lists
Date: 25 Jul 07 - 12:38 AM

I mentioned the Menger Hotel, but another famous one in San Antonio is the Gunter Hotel. It's where Robert Johnson had his famous recording session. If your son has an interest in music, it would be an interesting side trip. On Houston Street, downtown. Within walking distance of the Alamo. Been a while, but I think it's 4-5 blocks from the Alamo:

"...Speir, who helped the careers of many blues players, put Johnson in touch with Ernie Oertle, who offered to record the young musician in San Antonio, Texas. At the recording session, held on November 23, 1936 in rooms at the landmark Gunter Hotel which Brunswick Records had set up as a temporary studio, Johnson reportedly performed facing the wall. This has been cited as evidence he was a shy man and reserved performer...

Among the songs Johnson recorded in San Antonio were "Come On In My Kitchen," "Kind Hearted Woman," "I Believe I'll Dust My Broom" and "Cross Roads Blues."

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Robert_Johnson_(musician)

Going through family photos I found the one at the link below. An uncle on my mother's side, about 1941, 5 years or so after Johnson's recording session. The Gunter in the background:

http://mail.moment.net/~michael/Gunter.JPG

Subject: RE: Remember the Alamo?
From: Stilly River Sage
Date: 25 Jul 07 - 12:06 PM

That fellow Rose who declined to die for Texas, was that the origin of the song THE YELLOW ROSE OF TEXAS?

No.

The "Yellow Rose of Texas" is generally believed to be a mulatto woman, a free black woman, who worked for the Morgan household. Her name was Emily West. The newsletter in this link has a long article about some papers we hold at UTA and about who Emily West was (and wasn't).

SRS

Subject: RE: Remember the Alamo?
From: MARINER
Date: 25 Jul 07 - 04:25 PM

There is a song called "Moses Rose of Texas " to the same air as the "Yellow Rose" but I think it's more of a parody than the real thing . It's by some modern day cowboy group.

Subject: RE: Remember the Alamo?
From: Little Hawk
Date: 25 Jul 07 - 05:54 PM

I don't see why there should be any stigma attached to someone leaving the Alamo before the battle. I think the chances of slipping through the Mexican lines must have appeared quite slim, so it would have taken considerable guts either to go or to stay. He who went might be of use to the Texan army in future battles, after all. Dead heroes are great, but to win the next battle you need some live ones too.

Subject: RE: Remember the Alamo?
From: Goose Gander
Date: 25 Jul 07 - 06:38 PM

"Or, for that matter, what would a map of Europe look if the US had remained a small nation unable to join the allies in WWI or WWII ?"

Uncle Phil -

While I generally agree with your overview of the events in question, your speculative point about twentieth-century Europe bothers me . . . (and I hate to be a stick in the mud about this) . . . HOWEVER, US involvement in the Great War led to the Treaty of Versailles, which led to the rise of the National Socialists in Germany, and thus to WWII.

WWI also gave us the Bolshevik Revolution in Russia - damn, that "War to End All Wars" was a disastrously stupid war.

Subject: RE: Remember the Alamo?
From: Uncle Phil
Date: 26 Jul 07 - 08:24 AM

I like "Remember the Alamo" and have known it forever. But I wonder why no one ever wrote a better song about the Alamo or why there isn't a really great folk song associated with it. It just seems like there should be one.
- Phil

Stray dogs and cats:
Maggie – love the Texas History Online link, especially since they have entries for the Lightcrust Doughboys, Earnest Tubb, Big Mama Thornton, Bob Wills, etc. I showed it to Michelle, but she already had it bookmarked. I would have posted this yesterday if I hadn't spent so much time browsing there.

Uncle Phil - I am appalled to see that you attributed the "die in these ditches" quote to Travis. It is a quote from a letter written by Bowie, you fool.

Guest - Menger Hotel, Gunter Hotel. Lots of good German names in ole San Antone. I reckon that when I die, if I've lead a good life, I'll go to the bar in the Menger Hotel.

Mark – Louis Rose was a real guy. He fought in Napoleon's army and in other battles in Texas. His name appears as a witness in land claims for the heirs of Alamo defenders, so it seems folks in his own time believed that he was at the Alamo during the siege and trusted him. No evidence that his contemporaries considered him to be "yellow" for leaving the Alamo. Clever play on words, though. I'll probably borrow it sometime.

Michael – No deep thought was involved in that speculation; it's just interesting to consider on how historic events tie together. Beer helps. However, I sure do believe that world history and maps in the 20th Century were greatly influenced, for good or ill, by what a small group of colonists did in Texas in 1836.

LH – There are some puzzles about Texas Revolution that we will never know that answers to. Why Santa Anna divided his forces is a puzzle. Houston allowing Mexican reinforcements to arrive before attacking at San Jacinto and Santa Anna attacking the Alamo just before his heavy artillery arrived in SA are a couple other puzzles.

It's clear that Santa Anna underestimated the Texican irregulars. He spent a lot of time putting down revolutions in other parts of Mexico and may have assumed that he was facing the same sort of opposition.