Shunning: a Cure for Trolls

Subject: BS: The martin gibson problem!
From: Deckman
Date: 15 Sep 04 - 05:59 PM

I have answer to the "martin gibson" problem. It has worked for me for the last six weeks. Because of the numerous e-mails I have received from mudcat friends around the world expressing great frustration in dealing with this person, I now offer my suggestion to you:

It's REAL SIMPLE! We SHUN HIM.

Let me explaing how it works:

Whenever I decide to open an interesting thread, I first read the list of posters to that thread. You probably do the same. If I read that "martin gibson" has posted to that thread, I do NOT open it, I do NOT READ it! Pretty simple, eh?

Let me predict the result of your action:

If you have found your blood pressure rising in the past by his postings, guess what, your blood pressure no longer rises!

Those few who enjoy rolling in the slime with him, will soon realize that they are rolling the slime ... all by themselves.

As I expect that martin gibson will be attacking me as soon as he sees this thread, I probably won't be posting any more to this thread. I mean, after all, I DO have standards.

I offer this very simple solution to a problem. Do it if you want. CHEERS, Bob(deckman)Nelson ((I don't care WHAT my neighbors say ... I'm really a nice guy))

Subject: RE: BS: The martin gibson problem!
From: beardedbruce
Date: 15 Sep 04 - 06:04 PM

What problem?

If what he says is false, it should not bother you.

If what he says is true, he is justified in telling you it.


Are there other choices?

You have the right to read or not read whatever you like- but to tell others they cannot express themselves, when you allow yourself to post, is hypocritical. The rights we give those we dislike are the ones that we can demand for ourselves.

I find many of the comments here unsuitable- but I do not ask that the poster be shunned, or removed. I can choose to read them, or ignore them.

Subject: RE: Shunning: a Cure for Trolls
From: Georgiansilver
Date: 15 Sep 04 - 06:13 PM

Agree with beardedbruce....why even start another thread which talks about the MG thing. For goodness sake just live with it or sweat over it, you have the choice.
Please close this thread as it is just another anti-Martin Gibson imflammatory posting.
Best wishes.

Subject: RE: Shunning: a Cure for Trolls
From: Nerd
Date: 15 Sep 04 - 06:24 PM

There are other choices, bb.

Purely as an example, "Fuck You" is neither true nor false.

Lots of MG's posts are amusingly worded variants of the above.

Subject: RE: Shunning: a Cure for Trolls
From: beardedbruce
Date: 15 Sep 04 - 06:28 PM

So? I hear the equivalent from a number of others here, all the time. Seems that I don't assume that they are always right, but want to form my own opinion instead of hewing to the mudcat "party" line.

Subject: RE: Shunning: a Cure for Trolls
From: mg
Date: 15 Sep 04 - 06:33 PM

It is pretty obvious to me what someone would do if he or she really wanted to pull your chains, but I won't say what it is so I won't be accused of putting ideas in anyone's head.. mg

Subject: RE: Shunning: a Cure for Trolls
From: Teresa
Date: 15 Sep 04 - 06:39 PM

Ok, a rare occasion, as I don't generally post to these types of threads. But I am finding myself chuckling, because the very title of this thread would draw every troll from miles around.

You know, like those things in the newspaper that tell you where all the prostitution activity is? ;)

I do one of two things with things people say that offend me.

I ignore them, or, if they bother me that much, I go away. I've learned that speaking up against flaming only fuels the flame.

I love to have reasoned debate, and I will defend those I care about; don't get me wrong. But this kind of thread and ad hominim attacks are at best pointless, and at worst very damaging.

T

Subject: RE: Shunning: a Cure for Trolls
From: Joe Offer
Date: 15 Sep 04 - 06:55 PM

Well, actually, shunning IS the best solution I've found for trolls. The key is that you have to act as if the troll did not exist at all, so any agreement to shun anyone has to be done by private communication. It's basically a very peaceful solution - if you don't give uncivil people the attention they crave, they usually either leave, or become civil.
Martin Gibson is certainly not the only uncivil person we have around here. It seems to be an epidemic. This hasn't been a very pleasant place lately.
-Joe Offer-

Subject: RE: Shunning: a Cure for Trolls
From: Cluin
Date: 15 Sep 04 - 07:39 PM

Interesting... Just for poops and snickers, here's what the first post translates to after running it through the "Valley Girl" translator site:



Subject: BS Like, the martin gibson problem!
From: Deckman
Date: 15 Sep 04 - 05:59 PM

I totally have answer to the "martin gibson" problem. It totally has worked for me for the last six weeks. Because of the numerous dweeb-mail (please, like I am SO sure, we valley girls use the phone)s I totally have received from mudcat friends around the world expressing totally awesome frustration in dealing with this person, I now offer my suggestion to you:

It's REAL SIMPLE! Like, oh my gawd! We SHUN HIM.

Let me explaining how it works:

Whenever I decide to open an how very thread, I first read the list of posters to that thread. Like, duh! You probably do the same. If I read that "martin gibson" totally has posted to that thread, I do NOT open it, I do NOT READ it! Like, oh my gawd! Pretty simple, eh?

Let me predict the result of your action:

If you totally have scoped your blood pressure rising in the past by his postings, guess what, your blood pressure no longer rises!

Those few who enjoy rolling in the slime with him, will soon realize that they are rolling the slime ... all by themselves.

As I expect that martin gibson will be attacking me as soon as he sees this thread, I probably totally won't be posting any more to this thread. I mean, after all, I DO totally have standards.

I offer this very simple solution to a problem. Do it if you want. CHEERS, Bodacious Bob deckman)Dweeb ((I totally don't care WHAT my neighbors say ... I'm totally a nice dweeb))

Subject: RE: Shunning: a Cure for Trolls
From: katlaughing
Date: 15 Sep 04 - 07:52 PM

Cluin, close, but I don't think Valley Girls ever end a sentence with "eh?" unless they also are up in Canada, eh? Mudcat's own Ditzee Lee doesn't do too badly!**bg**

Subject: RE: Shunning: a Cure for Trolls
From: Little Hawk
Date: 15 Sep 04 - 08:06 PM

Okay, I'm like, this is a, like, rare occasion, y'know, cos, like, I totally don't post to these types of threads fer sure! But I am like finding myself cracking up totally, because the, you know, title of this thread would totally draw every troll from miles around!

Like, duh! You know, like those things in the newspaper that tell you where all the, like, cute boys are? Like, I am so sure! ;)

I, like, do one of two things with things trolls, y'know, say that majorly offend me.

I, like, ignore them, or, if they, like, bother me that much, I like just totally go away, y'know? Like, duh!

I majorly love to totally have reasoned debate, don't get me wrong, and I will, like, defend other people that I care about, but this kind of thread is, like, grody to the max and totally offensive! I want to, like, gag when I, like, read it. Gross me out! So, like, totally give me a break, will ya? Man, I am soooo outa here!

(as quoted directly from the winsome lips of Sally the Valley girl...)

Subject: RE: Shunning: a Cure for Trolls
From: artbrooks
Date: 15 Sep 04 - 08:22 PM

So, the suggestion is that we look to see if Mr. Gibson has posted to a thread and don't open it if he has, regardless of the topic or who else has contributed? Can't see it.

Subject: RE: Shunning: a Cure for Trolls
From: Jeri
Date: 15 Sep 04 - 08:41 PM

I am ao not going to ditch a thread because somebody posts to it. I've had to work with people I didn't like, but could still talk to them and still do my job. There's usually some common ground here too. If you don't want to deal with 'fuck you' posts, then don't, don't answer them, but don't write them either. Most importantly, try to figure out why you care and learn not to.

I haven't figured out why anyone gives a shit anyway. Look: "Jeri...asshole...bitch...used tampon...menopause...up the ass." They're just words, and they don't mean much. Especially not when they repeat frequently. I think Fred Miller said it best, but I don't know where his post is. Something like soft-handed people being politeley obscene. The polite and specific obscenity bothers me more than a few generic insults, and there's far more of it here.

Go have a hotdog. Put ketchup on it and laugh maniacally. You'll feel better.

Subject: RE: Shunning: a Cure for Trolls
From: MaineDog
Date: 15 Sep 04 - 08:46 PM

If you ban "Martin Gibson", what's to prevent that person from reappearing as "Koch Adler" ?

Subject: RE: Shunning: a Cure for Trolls
From: Little Hawk
Date: 15 Sep 04 - 09:01 PM

Or Kent Ovation.

Subject: RE: Shunning: a Cure for Trolls
From: Teresa
Date: 15 Sep 04 - 09:09 PM

Like, totally, plagarism, you dweeb LH!   ;););)

Ok, I sooo got drawn back into this, but I can't resist a laugh or two. :D

T

Subject: RE: Shunning: a Cure for Trolls
From: The Shambles
Date: 15 Sep 04 - 09:37 PM

Have your say here while you can - I am sure it won't be long before this thread is also deleted or closed.

If you don't want our volunteers to keep doing this in order to protect us from us - perhaps the original suggestion does not really deserve the derision it would have appeared to have received, mainly I would suggest from the minority who don't already adopt it as routine.

Not responding to obvious bait remains THE ONLY WAY to deal with those who only wish to yank yours or anyone else's chain!! If they was a REAL will to prevent such postings - this would be the ONLY method encouraged and example set. Of course if this was the only method encouraged - there would be no justification for our volunteers to protect us (and no fun at all). But who is going to protect us from our well-meaning volunteers - who do more damage and pose far more threat to our forum than our supposed vandals ever do?

Deleting and closing threads is responding in exactly the same way and providing just the required reaction as posting in kind to call someone an asshole. The only difference is when it is posted in (censorship brown writing) it make someone feel important and looks as if they are doing something and it does not bring the offending thread to the top again. In fact - after this action - there is no way for most of us to bring the thread back to the top again.

This is what was said at the last (thread) closing.....

OK, so I suppose it's time to close this one, too. I don't know what the solution is, but I do know it doesn't have anything to do with everybody calling each other asshole.
That kind of stuff makes it really difficult to carry on an adult discussion.
-Joe Offer-

When you don't know what the solution is and you are not sure what to do - I have always found the best course - is to do nothing.

Subject: RE: Shunning: a Cure for Trolls
From: The Shambles
Date: 15 Sep 04 - 09:40 PM

This was the latest thead to bite the dust.

Why is Martin Gibson allowed to post here?

Subject: RE: Shunning: a Cure for Trolls
From: GUEST
Date: 15 Sep 04 - 09:44 PM

He's trying.

Try this.

Anytime a member posts, they cannot post as guest without thier Mudcat name appearing beside the Guest post--even if they have logged off.

Anonymous Guests have a read-only right on the 'cat. If they want to ask a question pertaining to music they could have a section devoted to that type of question. Maybe the question sits in limbo for upto a day and is then posted to the board by a troll. Guests then get their questions answered.

Subject: RE: Shunning: a Cure for Trolls
From: Ron Davies
Date: 15 Sep 04 - 09:45 PM

Bob--

Having had the pleasure of "Martin Gibson's" cyber-company, I can sympathize.

Actually I feel a little guilty and must apologize--I'm sorry I didn't read the Pete Seeger thread before I described "Martin" as "sweetness and light" on musical threads. I was dead wrong on that--his bile is obviously not restricted to non-musical topics, as is painfully evident from that thread. That the worth of Pete Seeger is a topic of debate (on a folk forum!) is truly amazing. We all have "hot buttons" but who would have thought that appreciation of Pete Seeger would be one for "Martin"?

Hats off to Ron Oloesko, Don Firth, et al. for the calm, measured way they dealt with Martin's mindless spewing. I would not have been so diplomatic.

However I still contend:

1) Freedom of speech demands we let Martin post whatever he wants, no matter how stupid and/or vulgar. Perhaps in Utopia his freedom of speech would be restricted to comments on types of guitars, but censorship is no solution and it's a slippery slope anyway.

2) Rather than leave threads Martin shows up on, I plan to stay and fight.

Martin is a feeble opponent. As I said earlier, when he slips into gutter mode, he's only ridiculing himself. There are many non- vulgar responses. When he reverts to vulgarisms, I just ask him if he's quite comfortable in the gutter, what we can do to make his stay there more pleasant, tell him his postings will be treated with all the respect they deserve---any number of ways you can respond without getting into a name-calling contest. And based on his apoplectic reponse, it seems to send HIS blood pressure through the roof. What did Patton say about dying for your country?

Interestingly, Martin doesn't seem to be the only guy around here whose second language is "gutter". There must be an amazing number of guys nostalgic for the high school locker room (mostly, it seems, GUESTS)


Obviously, shunning is a great approach (though Martin is not really a troll) but it ain't easy, especially when Martin wears such a big KICK ME sign. As I said earlier, I will not
desert a topic just because Martin is on it. I have no objection to destroying a foulmouthed pathetic debate opponent, and what Martin says can't even be described as debate. It is too bad sometimes when he pollutes music threads with his mindless drivel--but just consider the source and go on.

And then, sometimes, just to throw you off, he actually makes sense---now that's really unfair.

I still do think there's an opening for Martin as Mr. Bush's press secretary. He would be perfect for the job.

Subject: RE: Shunning: a Cure for Trolls
From: Ron Davies
Date: 15 Sep 04 - 09:54 PM

No, sorry, if he wants to be Bush's press secretary, he's got to get out of that habit of making sense, even once in a great while. Otherwise it just isn't realistic.

Subject: RE: Shunning: a Cure for Trolls
From: The Fooles Troupe
Date: 15 Sep 04 - 10:09 PM

Shunning can only work if everybody does it, and many can't, or won't.

And as for Flame Contests..

Seems as if some people round here couldn't stand the heat when this little Salamander said 'bring it on'....

Robin

Subject: RE: Shunning: a Cure for Trolls
From: The Shambles
Date: 15 Sep 04 - 10:11 PM

So, the suggestion is that we look to see if Mr. Gibson has posted to a thread and don't open it if he has, regardless of the topic or who else has contributed? Can't see it.

Is this any worse than having any thread with a few posts judged for us by our volunteers as too offensive to stay - being closed or deleted with all the other contributions because they can be bothered to make the effort just to get rid of the offending posts?

The devil or the deep blue sea it may be - but it is a choice.

Some other recent examples of thread closures - just in case you missed them.

Regulars who pose as guests

Is anonymous posting to be encouraged?

Subject: RE: Shunning: a Cure for Trolls
From: Joe Offer
Date: 15 Sep 04 - 10:25 PM

Thanks, Ron, that's just what we need - more fighting. Get out there and defend your bruised ego. Can't let our honor be insulted by a troll, can we?
-Joe Offer-

Subject: RE: Shunning: a Cure for Trolls
From: Ron Davies
Date: 15 Sep 04 - 10:36 PM

OK Joe--I'll try to shun him also.

Subject: RE: Shunning: a Cure for Trolls
From: Ron Davies
Date: 15 Sep 04 - 10:41 PM

Joe--

But what should we do if he comes on a topic that's worth discussing? Can we leave and immediately set up another thread on the same topic? And if he then posts on the second thread, what? I don't see the logistics.

Subject: RE: Shunning: a Cure for Trolls
From: The Fooles Troupe
Date: 15 Sep 04 - 11:08 PM

You see Ron, that's why some posters want things like 'Troll Script Robots' banned.... :-)

Subject: RE: Shunning: a Cure for Trolls
From: Little Hawk
Date: 15 Sep 04 - 11:19 PM

Ron - What are you supposed to do? Why do you have to DO anything? Are you going to let another person control your general state of mind that easily? I don't recommend it. Why give them such power over you?

If you can maintain your own equanimity then you have not given your power away.

Subject: RE: Shunning: a Cure for Trolls
From: Jeri
Date: 15 Sep 04 - 11:37 PM

I don't think that's what Joe was saying, not if you read his earlier post in this thread. Ignoring an entire thread because of one person you don't like is silly. Discuss the topic and try to avoid getting pissed off or at least posting about what your pissed off about. I tend to try avoiding messages I don't like, not people, if at all possible.

The digs that come at someone who's reasonably discussing the topic at hand seem obsessive. Then, THEY'RE the trolls. I don't think I could ignore all the folks who do that these days and still contribute to the forum.

Subject: RE: Shunning: a Cure for Trolls
From: GUEST,SueB
Date: 15 Sep 04 - 11:44 PM

Shun them? You bet your bottom dollar we should shun them! Why, they're disgusting, with their icky little round naked tummies, and their totally sickening freaky-colored Don King hair-dos! Disgusting! Why, they shouldn't be allowed! Why anyone would want to have one of those ugly looking things, I have no idea. I used to work with this lady, and she had her entire desk covered with the damned things, orange hair, blue hair, purple hair, it made me sick. You couldn't even steal a pencil from her drawer without knocking over ten of them horrid little creatures. She never got any work done 'cause she was constantly arranging them and rearranging them, and making them talk to each other, and kiss each other, and hump each other, and I don't know what else. Disgraceful!

Um, what? Oh. Oh, I see. Nevermind.

Subject: RE: Shunning: a Cure for Trolls
From: Jeri
Date: 15 Sep 04 - 11:50 PM

Sue, my mother used to make little outfits for them. Like Barbie clothes only more trollish.

Subject: RE: Shunning: a Cure for Trolls
From: GUEST,SueB
Date: 16 Sep 04 - 12:12 AM

*(No disrespect to your mother intended!)

Subject: RE: Shunning: a Cure for Trolls
From: Nerd
Date: 16 Sep 04 - 02:06 AM

So we have Ottawa Valley Girls debating Koch Adler (which, by the way, is WAY more Hebraic than Kent Ovation).

Look, Martin Gibson can be funny and anyone who takes his insults so seriously as to get all tied up in knots needs to take a few deep breaths and go pick a banjo for a while. Sure you could not post to any thread where someone uncivil has been before, but then aren't you letting them run your life?

Subject: RE: Shunning: a Cure for Trolls
From: Paco Rabanne
Date: 16 Sep 04 - 03:28 AM

Think of it this way: If you were all sat in a folk club together, rather than posting in space, and a member become abusive, would the rest of you just sit there and take it? Or would one of you ask the Landlord to evict them?

Subject: RE: Shunning: a Cure for Trolls
From: The Shambles
Date: 16 Sep 04 - 10:52 AM

Would you really expect the landlord to throw all the law-abiding ones out for the bad behavior of one?

That is what is happening here when entire threads are deleted or closed because of one or two offending posts - because our volunteers cannot be bothered to just deal with just the offending posts or posters.

The landlord would soon be out of business if they were as non-selective and careless in their enforcement methods as our volunteers currently are.

Subject: RE: Shunning: a Cure for Trolls
From: Georgiansilver
Date: 16 Sep 04 - 11:03 AM

Has someone really done something worthy of eviction then other than exercised their right to free speech?
Best wishes.

Subject: RE: Shunning: a Cure for Trolls
From: GUEST,MMario
Date: 16 Sep 04 - 11:08 AM

actually Shambles - at least over here in the states - it is not unusual for management to evict entire parties from restaurants, bars, etc for the actions of a single member of the party.

Subject: RE: Shunning: a Cure for Trolls
From: The Shambles
Date: 16 Sep 04 - 11:08 AM

Perhaps some of us need reminding that there are no rules.....?

Explain the BS rules

Subject: RE: Explain the BS rules
From: Max - PM
Date: 26 Oct 99 - 12:40 AM

Since you are with us, you get to help us make the rules. Of late it seems that it is used for non-music related questions, comments, thoughts and stories. It may be like just a light conversation piece, or just killing time, or getting through a bad day, or anything non-academic (if you will). Or, just don't use it. It is what you make it. Don't sweat the rules, cause there aint none.

Subject: RE: Shunning: a Cure for Trolls
From: The Shambles
Date: 16 Sep 04 - 11:20 AM

actually Shambles - at least over here in the states - it is not unusual for management to evict entire parties from restaurants, bars, etc for the actions of a single member of the party.

That could explain a lot. I am sure this idea would appeal very much to our volunteers here...........Thinking - 'just get rid of all these pesky posters and all our problems are over'.

But if this were to happen in a bar - to an entire party or one troublesome individual - the management would be most unlikely to have them back - if these people's behavior had not improved. They even may not be prepared to have them back even if it had!

As I fear that our volunteers do not actually want to solve the problem - as there then would be no excuse to have them all here - passing judgement upon us and imposing editing action based upon it.

Subject: RE: Shunning: a Cure for Trolls
From: Paco Rabanne
Date: 16 Sep 04 - 11:21 AM

If there are no rules, there is no structure. Therefore every thread will degenerate into the nastiness that we have seen of late. I can talk bollocks with the best of them in the BS section, but some recent threads have displayed such viciousness that I would now no longer recommend anyone I know to sign up to mudcat.

Subject: RE: Shunning: a Cure for Trolls
From: The Shambles
Date: 16 Sep 04 - 11:42 AM

The structure you refer to IS in place. So why defend it as it is plainly NOT working? The nastiness is happening NOW.

Almost every thread I try and have a reasoned discussion in - there seems to be an excuse found to close or delete it. And the vicousness you refer to just continues and our volunteers also indulge in it and set the example to follow.

It is because our forum now is neither fish nor fowl. Sadly it is much nearer being foul - but there is little point in pretending that any of this imposed 'structure' or rather selective and reactive censorship and double standards - has had or can have any effect on reducing what you deplore as vicousness.

It is my opinion that all this judgement, imposition and hypocrisy is the biggest single contributor to all the vicousness. It is all so plainly laughable that some just cannot resist pulling the chains and post here (under many guises) just for that purpose. The only way to prevent the vicous monkeys in not to encourage them by feeding them or by supplying any reaction to them. If they are ignored - they will eventually go away - unlike our volunteers - who we seem to be stuck with.

Subject: RE: Shunning: a Cure for Trolls
From: Jerry Rasmussen
Date: 16 Sep 04 - 02:10 PM

Let me take a deep breath before I post this. I have been a prime target of Martin Gibsons on many occasions, and I've had threads hijacked with his obscenities and attacks on other Catters to the point where I decided to take a leave of absence from here to cool off. Since I've come back, I've exchanged PMs with MG, encouraged him to participate positively on a few threads, and participated on a couple of his (none of which were rife with the kind of attack/counter-attack garbage that has poisoned this place recently.)
I've expressed my appreciation to MG, and would hate to see him "shunned."

There are some serious problems with the approach of shunning him. If you refuse to read any thread that he's posted to, you eliminate whole threads that have been good... like the "Is Bluegrass an attitude?" thread, for example. There is also very little encouragement for MG to participate in a positive manner, if no one is going to read his posts, positive or negative. If you want to shun a thread, shun any threads that slide into mudslinging, whoever is involved. Recently, MG isn't the only one who has started the attacks. I'd ask those who find it entertaining to pull Martin's chain to stop and examine themselves to see if they can't find alternative forms of entertainment.

I've been disgusted with the way Martin came blasting into Mudcat, attacking everyone with foul obscenities. I hope that, if not attacked, that he will ease off on that kind of behavior, and I've seen evidence that he has. I'd encourage people to give him a break and that we ALL cool our hormones (as my teenage sons used to tell me.)

Jerry

Subject: RE: Shunning: a Cure for Trolls
From: Don Firth
Date: 16 Sep 04 - 03:30 PM

I've probably been one of Martin Gibson's major targets. Why, I don't know, other than about a year ago I had the audacity to disagree with him about something (politely, I might add). His response to my disagreement was the sort of thing he has since become famous for. When he started tracking me from thread to thread and followed my posts with references to what a pompous, boring old fart I am, complete with his presumptions about my lack of personal hygiene and inability to function sexually, I tried to turn the whole thing into a sort of running joke (e.g., the biographical sketch about how he started his pathetic life in a Dumpster). Although I found it an interesting exercise in writing and some folks found it amusing, it turned out to be counterproductive, and a general waste of time that I needed for my more serious writing projects, so I dropped it. This, of course, hasn't stopped Martin Gibson from following me around, but not quite as consistently lately, because it appears he had developed a much larger client list.

The policy I have since attempted to adopt is similar to what Jerry says above. I'm willing to converse with him civilly if he remains civil. But if he lapses into his usual mode of behavior, I'd simply regard him the same way I would regard static on the radio. Annoying, but not much I can do about it. I ignore him if I can, but if his static becomes too intrusive, I change stations (abandon the thread that has turned sour and go to another, or close out Mudcat and do something else). I will NOT, however, let Martin Gibson or anyone else drive me out of Mudcat. I refuse to abandon Mudcat to philistines. A few times recently, Martin Gibson has, indeed, posted a few reasonable and informative comments. I applaud this. I welcome this. Whether he and I can ever have a civil exchange depends entirely on him.

In my intensions to ignore him, I lapsed in the Pete Seeger thread, primarily because my respect for Pete is such that I found Martin Gibson turning that thread into another opportunity to stir up trouble highly offensive. By responding at all, I fell into his trap. I think his whole purpose there was to be offensive, and how better to gain attention than to bad-mouth Pete in a folk music forum? So, point for Marty. "A hit! A palpable hit!" But it won't happen again.

I know where Bob the Deckman is coming from. He does not suffer fools gladly. Gatherings at the Nelson maison are truly "pleasant and delightful." But this does not mean that there are not heated discussions sometimes. However, if someone becomes rude and offensive, Bob is perfectly willing and able to pick them up by the of the scruff of the neck and the seat the pants and throw them out through the door. More that one person has suddenly found himself looking at Bob's front lawn from very close up. But fortunately it happens rarely, because most people know how to behave.

Don Firth

Subject: RE: Shunning: a Cure for Trolls
From: GUEST
Date: 16 Sep 04 - 03:54 PM

goodness gracious!

Subject: RE: Shunning: a Cure for Trolls
From: Ebbie
Date: 16 Sep 04 - 03:57 PM

Deckman, several years ago in a similar situation I suggested the same proposal you made. Someone - I think, McGrath of Harlow- gently reminded me that if we all do that, the offending party(ies) may be motivated to post in every thread, in order to shut down the entire Cat. Needless to say, we didn't do it.

Subject: RE: Shunning: a Cure for Trolls
From: GUEST,Chongo Chimp
Date: 16 Sep 04 - 04:16 PM

Look, people, this is NOT a folk club or a bar or your house or a restaurant. It's the internet. People are not here physically, got it? It's virtual reality. If you're in a place where people are there physically, then of course the management can eject them if they ain't wearin' a shirt, or they're swearin' at other people or whatever...

Physical life is more structured, and something has gotta be done there, because it's not so easy to get away from someone when they are physically in your face.

They ain't physically in your face here. They are a bunch of words on a screen, and you can ignore those words with no consequence to you whatsoever. If you can't handle that then what can you handle?

If someone sticks a roscoe in my face in physical life...I'm concerned. If he says something hostile to me on the Net, I ain't. It's that simple. He ain't in the same room with me and he can't do diddly. The more hostile he gets toward me, the more I laugh inside. I'm thinkin', "Why does he care this much about me? Somebody he's never met? I didn't know I was this important. Maybe I should be flattered that this bozo cares so much."

Subject: RE: Shunning: a Cure for Trolls
From: Joe Offer
Date: 16 Sep 04 - 04:24 PM

OK, let's look at Mudcat as a tavern, a metaphor that Max originated way back at our very beginning. If one patron misbehaves, that's not a big deal. If everyone just ignores the behavior, the unruly patron will leave or learn to behave - or the bartender will delete his messages.

If a good number of patrons respond to the one unruly person, a general brawl takes place, and people start tearing the place apart. The landlord (Max) and his two barkeeps (Jeff and Joe) can watch the battle, and it's probably wise if they tolerate a moderate amount of damage to the tavern and a cost of business. There's a limit, though. If the damage is too widespread, they have to put an end to the fight by closing or deleting threads - otherwise, the tavern may be severely damaged and it may take a good, long time before it's a pleasant place again.

So, the message to the patrons is: if you want this place to remain a pleasant place where you can relax and enjoy yourself, stay out of the fights. I don't think it's a good idea to name names or single out anybody in particular for shunning. I think all this arguing just perpetuates the unpleasantness. If somebody acts up, ignore them, and keep on enjoying the good ale of music and companionship that most people came here for.

-Joe Offer-

Subject: RE: Shunning: a Cure for Trolls
From: GUEST
Date: 16 Sep 04 - 04:28 PM

AAA--MEEEEN

Subject: RE: Shunning: a Cure for Trolls
From: Cluin
Date: 16 Sep 04 - 04:36 PM

I don't know why you can't just ignore the trolls. Everybody ignores ME all the time. And I don't even live under a bridge, nor exist as a prize in a gumball machine, nor live in a deep mere in Scandinavia from which I steal forth at night to snatch a few sleepers from Heorot.

Subject: RE: Shunning: a Cure for Trolls
From: Deckman
Date: 16 Sep 04 - 04:41 PM

Don ... I just got home from work and caught myself up on these postings. I must say that yours has got me laughing so hard that I had to take a bathroom break. I tried to remember just which hoots you are possibly referring to, where I actually had to throw someone out of the house.

The more I thought, the more I remembered. That in itself is quite amazing because you and I have been attending, and hosting, hoots since 1953. Then my memory DID return:

Do you remember that tall skinny guy that insisted on playing his banjo with every singer and song? I remember he bounced pretty good;

And then remember that HUGE guy, with the gorgeous wife. And how he started hitting on all the ladies. I still laugh to remember how SHE threw him out my front door.

And I well remember one incident that happened at Almar's house ... Oh never mind, I'm sure I'm boring people!

To serious up for a moment though ... I'm pleased about the sensible discussions this thread is causing. I do want to clearify ONE THING.

If you'll re-read my opening post, all I'm suggesting is a solution that WORKS FOR ME. No one is suggestinjg that you HAVE to do this. Just like all of Mudcat, it's a voluntary ... no charge ... no required actions. Try it you want. Don't if you don't want. I don't really care, one way or the other. It just works for me!!!!

Now then Don, I well remember the night that we almost succeeded in sinking the house boat on Lake Union. I remember that it was the "schools out" party for all the Highline High School teachers, and boy were they drunk. Remember, we started all running as group, from one wall to the other. We succeeded in losing some of the logs that were holding up the h ....... (Oh, never mind) CHEERS, Bob