Origins: Age of 'East Virginia'?

Subject: Age of 'East Virginia'?
From: Mad Maudlin
Date: 09 Jun 01 - 05:05 AM

Can anybody tell me how old (roughly) the song "East Virginia" is? I've been looking for information on it on the Web, but all I could find out is that the version Joan Baez sings (the only one I know so far)is from Kentucky. My song books have no information on its age, either.

Thank you!

Nathalie

Subject: RE: Help: Age of 'East Virignia'?
From: Dicho (Frank Staplin)
Date: 09 Jun 01 - 03:38 PM

Lists I looked at say it is a variant of "In old Virginny" which I haven't found. I presume it is not "Carry me back to ..."

Subject: RE: Help: Age of 'East Virignia'?
From: Malcolm Douglas
Date: 09 Jun 01 - 03:46 PM

For reference: DT file:  EAST VIRGINIA

Entry at  The Traditional Ballad Index:

East Virginia (Dark Hollow)

Unfortunately, no conclusive answer for you there.

Malcolm

Subject: RE: Help: Age of 'East Virignia'?
From: Dicho (Frank Staplin)
Date: 09 Jun 01 - 04:14 PM

The Trad. Ballad Index cited by Malcolm lists a book on the Ritchie Family, p. 134-135 that has the version "In Old Virginny." Anyone have this reference? It might help with the time frame.

Subject: RE: Help: Age of 'East Virignia'?
From: GUEST,Guest: Richie
Date: 20 Aug 02 - 09:42 AM

East Virgina: AK- "East Virginas Blues" is a sub-set of the "In Old Virginny" songs classified by Cecil Sharp. Most start off, "I was born in old Virginny to South Carlina(or whatever state) I did go".

This is the source of "Man of Constant Sorrow", a version of which is included in Sharp's from 1918. Subsequent branches include, "Darling think of what you've done" which I sing "going back to old Virginny" and the "Dark Hollow," "Greenback Dollar" songs.

If anyone wants specific lyrics or details let me know. [e-mail]

Subject: RE: Help: Age of 'East Virignia'?
From: masato sakurai
Date: 20 Aug 02 - 02:31 PM

"The origins of this song ["East Virginia Blues"] can be traced back to seventeenth century England. One of the first Southern Mounatin recordings of it was Clarence Ashley's "Dark Holler Blues," Columbia 15489 (149250), ca. 1928, which was sung with 5-string banjo. The melody and accompaniment were modal--neither in a major nor a minor key. Ashley later sang virtually the same tune and a similar text to the accompaniment of guitar and bluesy mouth-harp on "East Virginia Blues" (Ashley and Foster, Voc. 02576). About this time, the Carter Family recorded the song entirely in major and in two-part harmony (Bb B-5650). Later in the 1930s, the song developed into the very popular "Greenback Dollar," "The Answer to Greenback Dollar," etc." (Cohen et al., The New Lost City Ramblers Song Book, Oak, 1964, p. 43). What's the 17th-century English version?

Here's The Carter Family's "The East Virginia Blues" (1941) (Realaudio) from Honkingduck. Buell Kazee's "EAST VIRGINIA" (1927) is on Smith's Anthology of American Folk Music (Click here for supplemental notes). Ashley's "Dark Holler Blues" is on V.A., Rose Grew Around The Briar [sound clip].

~Masato

Subject: RE: Help: Age of 'East Virignia'?
From: Dicho (Frank Staplin)
Date: 20 Aug 02 - 04:53 PM

Well, several mentions of "In old Virginny," but no lyrics as yet. I can't find any in the DT.

Subject: Lyr Add: IN OLD VIRGINNY (Kentucky)
From: GUEST,Guest- Richie
Date: 20 Aug 02 - 10:01 PM

Here's a bit of one of 4 "Old Virginny" texts in my one of my notebooks. I have not looked through my manuscripts and other books.

IN OLD VIRGINNY
Sung by Judy Baker Harlan Co. KY, 1917

I was born in old Virginny,
South Carolina I did go,
Courted there a fair young lady,
O her name I do not know.

Her hair was of a dark brown colour,
And her cheeks was rosy red,
On her breast, she wore white lilies,
And tears for her I shed.

Now get this verse (the exact 'Dark Hollow' text):

I'd rather be on some dark (blue ocean)
Where the sun refused to shine,
For you to love another girl darling,
And to think you'll never be mine.

I wonder where Browning got his lyrics for Dark Hollow?
There's also a great text of "Man of Constant Sorrow" sung in 1918.

Also, I doubt the author could trace the East Virginia tune to England or he would have provided a source. If you want I can check on it but I'm very busy. If you want I can post entire set of lyrics for you on my web-site or here.

Thanks,
Richie

Subject: Lyr Add: OLD VIRGINNY
From: masato sakurai
Date: 20 Aug 02 - 10:10 PM

From: Jean Ritchie, Singing Family of the Cumberlands (1955; University Press of Kentucky, 1988, pp. 134-135; with music).

OLD VIRGINNY

I was born in old Virginny,
To North Carolina I did go;
I fell in love with a pretty fair maiden
And her name I did not know.

Her hair was of some brightsome color,
Her cheeks were of a rosy red,
And in my heart I loved her dearly
Many a tear for her I shed.

To my heart you are my darling,
At my door you're welcome in;
At my gate I'll meet you my darling,
O if your love I could only win.

When I am asleep I'm a-dreaming about you,
When I'm awake I find no rest,
And every moment seems like an hour
With aching pains all across my breast.

Your mama says that we never will marry,
Your papa says that it never will do;
If you'll have me, my darling girl,
I will run away with you.

I'd ruther be in some dark valley
Where that sun don't never shine,
Than to see you another man's darling
When I know that you should be mine.

When I am dead and in my coffin
And my feet's towards the sun,
Come and sit beside me darling,
Come and think on the way you done.

~Masato

Subject: RE: Help: Age of 'East Virginia'?
From: Dicho (Frank Staplin)
Date: 20 Aug 02 - 11:18 PM

Thanks, guest Richie, and Masato, for the Ritchie lyrics.
I have been unable to find old (pre-1900) references, and, like Richie, doubt the connection to England.
Richie, some day when you have time, I would appreciate the Sharp lyrics.

Subject: RE: Help: Age of 'East Virginia'?
From: GUEST,Guest-Richie
Date: 21 Aug 02 - 12:14 AM

I will post several of the Sharp "In Old Virginny" versions on my web-site at http://bluegrassmessengers.com Click lyrics then Fiddle Tunes- look under East Viginia- Versions 1, 2. I will also post them on this thread. I apologize for the lack of research as I haven't had much time and have only superficially entered songs from my data base and other spots on the web.

Masato & Dicho keep up your excellent work researching. You guys at Mudcat are the best!

Two places I can look for the England connection are: "Child's Popular Ballads" (I've done some research on the US connections) and my collection of shape-note hymn books. The inconsistant quality of the melodies I have for "In Old Virginny" make this a daunting and time consumming task.

I do beleive there is a connection. Any other ideas?

Richie

Subject: RE: Help: Age of 'East Virginia'?
From: Stewie
Date: 21 Aug 02 - 01:58 AM

There's a version of 'Old Virginny' by Lee Monroe Presnell on the second CD issue devoted to the Warner Collection: Various Artists 'Nothing Seems Better to Me' Appleseed APR CD 1036. It wouldn't be easy to transcribe - does anyone have a copy of the Warner texts? The recording is by Lee Monroe Presnell who told the Warners that he learned it as a little boy and that it was one of the oldest songs he heard his mother sing. The Warners' note gives a reference to the four versions in Sharp II. The Meade, Spottswood, Meade country muscic sources biblio-discography includes it under the heading 'Miscellaneous Love Lyrics' and its earliest reference is also to Sharp II. The British antecedent appears to be a trifle elusive - or perhaps even illusory.

--Stewie.

Subject: RE: Help: Age of 'East Virginia'?
From: Desert Dancer
Date: 21 Aug 02 - 02:31 AM

'Fraid the Lee Monroe Presnell version is one of those songs on the recording but not in the Warner book.

~ Becky in Tucson

Subject: RE: Help: Age of 'East Virginia'?
From: masato sakurai
Date: 21 Aug 02 - 02:44 AM

I can't find "East Virginia", "Dark Holler Blues" or ""Old Virginny" in Ann Warner's Traditional American Folk Songs from the Anne & Frank Warner Collection (Syracuse, 1984).

~Masato

Subject: Lyr Add: EAST VIRGINIA (from Cecil Sharp)
From: GUEST,Guest- Richie
Date: 21 Aug 02 - 06:45 AM

Here's Sharp's Version A: Note the similarity of verse 4 with Browning's famous "Dark Hollow" (I'd rather be in some dark hollow where the sun refused to shine). Also note the similarity to Tami LaRue's "Think of What You've Done" (Darling, thin of what you've done) with Sharp's Verse 5 last line.

EAST VIRGINIA- (Sharp No. 167, "In Old Virginny")
Sung by Judy Baker- Harlan Co. KY, Aug. 31, 1917 (Dark Hollow Text- Browning) (Darling, Think of What You've Done- Rakes)

1. I was born in old Virginny,
South Carolina I did go,
Courted there a fair young lady,
O her name I don not know.

2. Her hair was of a dark brown colour,
And her cheeks was rosy red,
On her breast, she wore white lilies,
And tears for her I shed.

3. In my heart I love you darling,
To my door, you're welcome in,
At my gate I love you darling,
Here's the one I'm trying to win.

4. I'd rather be on some dark blue ocean,
Where the sun refused to shine,
For you to love another girl darling,
And to think you'll never be mine.

5. I'd rather be dead in my coffin,
My pale face turned towards the sun,
Than to think of you my darling,
And to think of what you've done.

6. Here's your letter and your postals,
Lie them closely by your heart,
The ring you gave to me, my darling,
From my finger will never part.

Richie

Subject: Lyr Add: EAST VIRGINIA (Sharp #167B)
From: GUEST,GUEST- Richie
Date: 21 Aug 02 - 07:27 AM

Here's Sharp's 2nd version. Note the direct relationship with Jean Ritchie's first verse (posted by Masato). An additional note about Ritchie's version- Ritchie says, "This beautiful family love song comes to me from my father, who used to slip off into the deep woods on Sundays with his young friends and play gourd fiddles."

The Richie version- (I have 1953) changes the "deep blue sea" to the "dark valley" which "Dark Holler" in Ashley's 1928 version. Also Ritchie's "come and think on the way you done" more closely resembles the chorus of Tami LaRue's "Think of what you've done."

EAST VIRGINIA- (Sharp No. 167-B, "In Old Virginny")
Sung by Jake Sowder- Franklin Co. Va., Aug. 14, 1918 (Dark Hollow Text- Browning) (Darling, Think of What You've Done- Rakes)

O when I left the state of Georgia,
Old Virginny I did go,
There I spied a pretty fair miss,
O her name I do not know.

O her hair is of the darkest colour,
Her cheeks are of the diamond red,
She can face the morning sun,
O her age, I don't know how young.

Your papa says he's not willing,
For me to marry you.
But my dear, if you are willing,
I will run away with you.

Now I'm going to Alabama,
O for your sake I must go,
Must I go broken-hearted,
Like some poor soldier boy?

Subject: Lyr Add: EAST VIRGINIA (from Carter Family)
From: GUEST
Date: 21 Aug 02 - 07:52 AM

One last note on East Virginia. The Carter Family had two versions, below is the 1934 version (2nd). Note similarity in the first verse with Ritchie and Sharp. To me the interesting introduction is Verse 3's famous "I don't want your greenback dollar." This is one of the early connection with the "Greenback Dollar/I Don't Want Your Millions, Mister" that was used by Hoyt Axton and others.

1) I was born in East Virginia
North Carolina I did go
There I met a fair, young maiden
And her name, I did not know

2) Oh her hair was dark and curly
Cheeks were roses red
Oh, her breast she wore white lilies
Where I long to lay my head

3) I don't want your greenback dollar
I don't want your watch and chain
All I want is your heart, darling
Say you'll take me back again

4) The oceans deep and I can't wade in
And I have no wings to fly
I'll just get me a blue eyed boatman
Or you'll row me over the tide

5) I'll go back to East Virginia
North Carolina ain't my home
I'll go back to East Virginia
Leave them North Carolinians alone

Richie

HTML line breaks added. --JoeClone, 25-Jan-03.

Subject: RE: Help: Age of 'East Virginia'?
From: John Minear
Date: 21 Aug 02 - 09:13 AM

Fortunately, Lee Monroe Presnell also sang his song, "Old Virginny" for Sandy Paton in the early '60s. Sandy's recording is of a better quality than that of the Warners. It is exactly the same song, and can be found on THE TRADITIONAL MUSIC OF BEECH MOUNTAIN, NORTH CAROLINA, VOL II, from Folk-Legacy (FSA-23). Here are Lee Monroe Presnell's lyrics:

Once I lived in old Virginny;
North Carolina was my home.
There I courted a handsome lady;
Oh, I called her my own.

Her hair was yellow and her eyes were sparkling;
On her cheeks were a diamond red
And on her breast she wore a white lily.
Oh, the tears that I have shed.

"Father said that I must not marry;
My mother said it would never do.
But, oh, kind miss, if you are willing,
I will run away with you.

"Oh, must I go to old Virginny,
Or, for you sake, must I die?
Oh, must I go, sad, broken hearted?
Oh, my darling, say, don't cry.

"Oh, when I'm asleep I'm a-dreaming about you;
When I'm awake I take no rest,
For every moment seems like an hour.
Oh, what a pain lies in my breast.

"Oh, when the golden sun is shining
On the top of Calvary,
Oh, it's sometimes, love, while you are thinking,
You must ofttimes think of me."

Sandy says,

"it is a most beautiful folk lyric and Uncle Monroe sings it magnificently. Listen to the gentle descent of his voice on the first word of the last line of each stanza, then try to repeat it exactly as he sings it. Such an attempt will, perhaps, enable you to appreciate the great artistry possible within the confines of a tradition. The folk aesthetic is a very demanding one."

Subject: RE: Help: Age of 'East Virginia'?
From: masato sakurai
Date: 21 Aug 02 - 11:07 AM

The link I made above to the Carters' "1941" recording is of the 1934 version (Victor 27494); 1941 is the date issued.

Charles Wolfe says in his notes to the Carters' May 7, 1935 version (that is, No. 2) in an accompanying book to In The Shadow of Clinch Mountain (Bear Family):

"East Viginia Blues No. 2 was a follow-up to the Victor version the Carters recorded jusy a year before; it is similar, but revised enough to merit the No. 2 on the title. Though some of the lines here date back to 17th-century England, others were familiar throughout the Appalachians, often in lyrics called Dark Hollow Blues or Greenback Dollar. It sounds like A.P. strung together a series of familiar stanzas, thoug some of them ("I am dying, captain, dying") seem less relevant than others."

"Some of the lines", not the song itself, date back to the "17th century."

~Masato

Subject: Lyr Add: DON'T FORGET ME, LITTLE DARLING
From: Dicho (Frank Staplin)
Date: 21 Aug 02 - 02:38 PM

Vance Randolph has several interesting versions, under the title "Don't Forget Me, Little Darling."

DON'T FORGET ME, LITTLE DARLING

A
I don't want your green-back dollar,
I don't want your watch and chain,
All I want is your love, little darlin',
Won't you take me back again?

Papa says we cannot marry,
Mamma says it cannot be,
All I want is your love, little darlin',
Won't you take me back again?

Some folks say you love another,
An' you care no more for me,
All I want is your love little darlin',
Won't you take me bach again?

From Miss Gladys Wheeler, MO, 1937. With music.

B
Once I had a darling sweetheart
And he thought the world of me,
Until he found another girl
Now he cares no more for me.

I don't want your greenback dollar,
I don't want your watch and chain,
All I want is you my darling,
Won't you take me back again.

Many a night with you I rambled
On the banks of the dark blue sea,
In your heart you loved another,
In my grave I'd rather be.

Mamma said we couldn't marry,
Papa said it would never do,
But if you ever learn to love me
I'll run away and marry you.

I don't want your greenback dollar,
I don't want your watch and chain,
All I want is a thirty-eight pistol
To blow out my dirty brains. (!!!)

Mrs. May Kennedy McCord, MO, 1942, from Miss Ethel Robinett, MO.

C
When you're in some furrin country,
When from you I'm far away,
Won't you 'member little darlin',
We will meet again some day.

When the train pulled out from Knoxville,
An' you bid me goodbye,
Sayin' go back home, my little darlin',
Go back home an' do not cry.

Went back home, my heart was broken,
Thinkin' of them days that's past,
Thinkin' of them lonesome hours,
Thinkin' they had come at last.

When you're in some furrin country,
When from you I'm far away,
Won't you 'member, little darlin',
No one loves you like I do.

Mr. Raymond Stanley, Arkansas, 1938. Same tune as Miss Wheeler.

D
Don't forget me, little darling,
Don't forget the happy past,
But remember, little darling,
You are ever in my dreams.

You may meet with many faces,
They may tell you I'm not true,
Don't believe them, little darling,
None can love you as I do.

At my window, sad and lonely,
Thinking only, love of thee,
And I wonder if my darling
Ever, ever thinks of me.

Mr. Will Guilliams, Arkansas, 1941. He says he heard it sung near Farmington, Arkansas, in the early 90's. With music.

Randolph says there are some very similar lines in the "Old Virginny" song reported by Sharp (English Folk Songs From the Southern Appalachians, 1932, II, p. 234) and in the 4th stanza of a piece called "Georgy Boy") Carter, JAFL, 46, 1933, p. 32).

Subject: RE: Help: Age of 'East Virginia'?
From: Dicho (Frank Staplin)
Date: 21 Aug 02 - 02:48 PM

The Vance Randolph versions above from Ozark Folksongs, vol. 4, pp. 207-209, reprint edition of 1980, Univ. Missouri.

Subject: RE: Help: Age of 'East Virginia'?
From: Dicho (Frank Staplin)
Date: 21 Aug 02 - 06:56 PM

A British connection may exist through the ballad "Fond Affection," or "Once I Loved With Fond Affection." Brown, North Carolina Folklore, has several versions. Vol. 4 has the music and vol. 2 the lyrics. Version E collected in 1919 begins:
Once I loved a fond affection,
And he thought the world of me,
Till some dark-eyed girl persuaded;
Then he thought no more of me.

Go and leave me if you wish to,
Never let me cross your mind.
If you think I'm so unworthy
Go and leave me, never mind.

Coll. in Randolph Co., 1919, from Austin E. Elliot.

Version N starts:
I will pawn this watch and chain, love,
I will pawn this diamond ring.
I will pawn this heart from my bosom,
Hoping it brings you back again.

Go and leave me if you wish to,
Never let me cross your mind.
If you think I'm too unworthy,
Go, my darling, I don't mind.

Sung by Bascom Lamar Lunsford, Buncombe Co., no date.
Without vol. 2, I cannot give full lyrics. Five somewhat variant tunes are represented.

Other songs, considered as separate but with similar themes and (to me) that seem to be part of the same cluster, are "You Are False, But I'll Forgive You," "We Have Met And We Have Parted," "The Broken Engagement," "Broken Ties," "Parting Words," and several more.
The variations seem infinite.

Subject: Lyr Add: EAST VIRGINIA (from Doc Watson)
From: Lorraine
Date: 21 Aug 02 - 07:04 PM

Doc Watson also does a similar version

I was born in old east Virginia
North Carolina I did go
There I courted a fair young lady
What her age was I do not know

Her hair it was a brown dark curly
Her cheeks they were a ruby red
Upon her bosom she wore a ribbon
Oh the tears for her I shed

Her papa said that we might marry
Her mama said it would not do
Some dark night if you'll take a ramble
I will run away with you

I'd rather live in some dark hollow
Where the sun don't never shine
Than have you be some other man's woman
Never more on earth to call you mine

(Doc Watson on Doc Watson and Jean Ritchie in concert)
-Good song, but no idea how old. Sorry

HTML line breaks added. --JoeClone, 25-Jan-03.

Subject: Lyr Add: EAST VIRGINIA BLUES # 2 (from Carter)
From: Dicho (Frank Staplin)
Date: 21 Aug 02 - 08:58 PM

The only evidence on the age is anecdotal ("heard in the early 90's" etc.)
I will try the Levy and Bodleian sites for English ancestors using "Fond Affection," etc.
The Carters sang this one (see reference in Masato Sakurai, above). It may be their own, since the last three verses do not seem to appear in the versions I have turned up. No, I don't know why "little sister" appears.

Lyr. Add: "EAST VIRGINIA BLUES # 2 (Carter)

My sweetheart has gone and left me
And my little sister too
I am left alone in sadness
Lord I don't know what to do.

All this world is turned against me
Nothing but trouble do I see
There will be no more pleasure
In this whole wide world for me.

I am just from East Virginia
With a heart that's brave and true
Now I learned to love a maiden
With eyes of heavenly blue.

That same day I packed my suitcase
And I started to go away
But she met me at the station
Saying darling won't you stay.

I am dying, captain, dying
Won't you take those words for me
Take them over to the jail house
Let this whole wide world go free.

"She" always seems to have something white on her breast(s):
White lilies
A white lily
White flowers
White linen

Her hair was:
A light brown color
Dark and curly
A brightsome color
A lightsome color
Dark in color

The Carter Family had several different versions of East Virginia Blues. Guest, above, quotes a 1934 version. Here is the 1941 version mentioned by Masato, who gives the link to the Honking Duck audio:

Lyr. Add: EAST VIRGINIA BLUES (Carter)

I was born in East Virginia
To North Carolina I did go
There I spied a fair young lady
And her age I did not know.

Her hair was dark in color
Her cheeks were rosy red
Upon her breast she wore white lilies
Where I longed to lay my head.

Oh, at my heart you are my darlin'
At my door you're welcome in
At my gate I'll always meet you
For you're the girl I tried to win.

I'd rather be in some dark holler
Where the sun refuse to shine
Than for you to be another man's darlin'
And to know you'll never be mine.

Another verse that links to other songs (from a note of mine marked Canada ??):

O take me to that marble orchard
Carve my name upon a stone
Tell the world I died her lover
And I died for love alone.

Subject: Lyr Add: EAST VIRGINIA (Sharp #167C)
From: GUEST,GUEST- Richie
Date: 21 Aug 02 - 09:37 PM

East Virginia- "In Old Virginny" Here is Sharp's No. 167C and -O Brother- is it a doosey! Combining "Man of Constant Sorrow" in the first verse and regular "In Old Virginny" text in the 2nd. This 1918 version compares to the date and time period of Burnett's 1913 "Farewell Song" which is the other early version with the "Man of Constant Sorrow" lyrics. I'll include "Farewell Song" for comparison.

EAST VIRGINIA- "In Old Virginny" collected by Sharp
No. 167- C; St. Peter's School- Calaway Va. Aug. 17-1918.

1) I am a man of constant sorrow,
I have seen trouble all my days.
I'll bid farewell to old Virginia,
The place where I was partly raised.

2) But when I was in old Virginia,
North Carolina I did go,
There I spied a handsome lady
O her name I did not know.

3) I always thought I had seen trouble,
But know I know it's common run;
I'll hang my head like a humble Christian,
And on my journey I'll go on.

4) When I am in some lonesome hour,
When I am walking all alone,
I'll wipe the briny tears of sorrow,
And think of you when far away.

The lyrics are to be found in a 1913 songbook printed by Richard Burnett of Monticello, KY. Here they are:

1) I am a man of constant sorrow,
I've seen trouble all of my days;
I'll bid farewell to old Kentucky,
The place where I was born and raised.

2) Oh, six long year I've been blind, friends.
My pleasures here on earth are done,
In this world I have to ramble,
For I have no parents to help me now.

3) So fare you well my own true lover,
I fear I never see you again,
For I'm bound to ride the Northern Railroad,
Perhaps I'll die upon the train.

4) Oh, you may bury me in some deep valley,
For many year [sic] there I may lay.
Oh, when you're dreaming while you're slumbering
While I am sleeping in the clay.

Also a brief comment on some of the recent posts. My friend Doc Watson who I'll be playing with Oct. 5 (lyrics poster by Lorraine) sings the "Go and leave me if you wish to, Never let me cross your mind." (posted by Dicho) lyrics to "Columbus Stockade" blues which he plays in Am with a capo.

These lyrics really get passed around. Frank Brown (Dicho's post) heard my grandfather play one of Frank Profitt's dulcimers in New York city and went to Beech Mountain to get one from him (Turtle Man's Beech Mountain post). Somehow everything seems to be related.

Before I "hang down my head and cry" I agree with Dicho but "Dear Companion" seems to be separate as Sharp No. 111. I think the "Dear Companion" tunes are related to "Dowie Dens o' Yarrow." Anyone want to have a go at this relationship?

Richie

HTML line breaks added. --JoeClone, 25-Jan-03.

Subject: Lyr Add: OH MOLLY DEAR (from B.F. Shelton)
From: Stewie
Date: 21 Aug 02 - 10:00 PM

Several old-time recordings have been mentioned - Kazee, Ashley, Ashley and Foster, Carter Family - but no mention so far of the fine early recording by B.F. Shelton under the title 'Oh Molly Dear'. It was recorded at the legendary 1927 Bristol Sessions. This version is related to the 'Drowsy Sleeper'/'Katie Dear'/'Who's That Knocking On My Window' family.

OH MOLLY DEAR
(Traditional)

Oh once I lived in old Virginny
To North Carolina I did go
There I saw a nice young lady
Oh her name I did not know

Her hair was black and her eyes was sparkling
On her cheeks were diamonds red
And on her breast she wore a lily
To mourn (?) the tears that I have shed

Oh when I'm asleep I dream about her
When I'm awake I see no rest
Every moment seems like an hour
Oh the pains that cross my breast

Oh Molly dear, go ask your mother
If you my bride can ever be
If she says no, come back and tell me
And never more will I trouble thee

Last night as I laid on my pillow
Last night as I laid on my bed
Last night as I laid on my pillow
I dreamed that fair, young lady was dead

No, I won't go ask my mother
She's lying on her bed of rest
And in one hand she holds a dagger
To kill the man that I love best

Now, go and leave me if you want to
Then from me you will be free
For in your heart you love another
And in my grave I'd rather be

Source: transcription of B.F. Shelton 'Oh Molly Dear' recorded on 29 July 1927 in Bristol, Tennessee. Issued as Victor 4017, September 1929. Reissued on Various Artists 'The Bristol Sessions' Country Music Foundation CMF 011-D (2-CD set).

Other old-time recordings under various titles included:

Karl & Harty 'Darling, Think What You've Done' 1936
Roy Acuff & His Crazy Tennesseans 'New Greenback Dollar' 1936
Blue Sky Boys 'What Have You Done' 1937
J.H. Howell's Carolina Hillbillies 'My Sweetheart's Gone and Left Me' 1938
Jack (Hilliard) & Leslie (Palmer) 'Darling Think of What You've Done' 1938
Morris Brothers 'Darling, Think of What You've Done' 1939
[Info from Meade, Spottswood, Meade biblio-discography]

--Stewie.

Subject: Lyr Add: FOND AFFECTION
From: Dicho (Frank Staplin)
Date: 21 Aug 02 - 11:01 PM

For comparison, here is "Fond Affection" from the Max Hunter Collection. Related? : Fond Affection

Lyr. Add: FOND AFFECTION

O, once I loved with fond affection
My thoughts were all of him I know
Until some dark eyed girl betrayed me
An' now he's left me all alone.

Chorus:
So, if he's gone, just let him wander
I hope I never cross his path
For in his heart he loves another
And in my grave, I'd rather be.

A many a night, while he lies sleeping
A dreaming o'er his sweet repose
That I poor girl, lay broken hearted
An' listen to the winds that blow.

There's just three things that love, I ask thee
My shroud, my coffin an' my grave
And when I'm dead, love come an' see me
An' kiss the girl you once betrayed.

Mrs. Norma Kissner, Arkansas, 1960.

Variants: Little Darling Pal Of Mine. (0823 in Max Hunter Coll.)
Other collections:
Randolph IV-no. 755 The Broken Heart
Belden p. 209
Brown II no. 153 Fond Affection

Sharp's 167C IS a doosie! And "Oh Molly Dear" has black hair! A lot turned up with a simple request for "age."

Subject: RE: Help: Age of 'East Virginia'?
From: GUEST,Guest- Richie
Date: 21 Aug 02 - 11:57 PM

Stewie-

I've always thought that Awake! O Awake!/Drowsy Sleeper was the sub-clasification of "East Virginia/In Old Virginny" that included O Molly Dear/Katie Dear (there's a great version by Mike Seeger-Anyone have his lyrics?)which is also known as "Silver Dagger" (have you heard the Old Crowe Medicine Show's version?) but I don't include these in with the "Think of What You've Done" Tammy LaRue branch (There's no silver dagger and no smoking gun!). But the bloody silver dagger is what we were looking for.

This appears to be the English connection that we're looking for (although there are probably others).

Note Sharp's "Awake! Awake!" No. 57 A- "I'll go down in some lone valley". My notes on Sharp 57 indicate that this song appears in Christie's Traditional Ballad Airs 225; One Hundred English Folk Songs p. 106 also in Folk Songs from from Somerset, No 99.

Another good version in my collection is from Bascom Lamar Lunsford entitled "Awake O Awake" which includes the "Fond Affection/Dear Companion"- "turtle dove" lyrics. There's also a version by Melinger Henry (a friend of my grandfather's) in my collection.

This appears to give a direct line from England to "Awake Awake" which is directly related to "East Virginia".

What do you think?

Richie

Subject: Lyr Add: EAST VIRGINIA (Buell Kazee)
From: Dicho (Frank Staplin)
Date: 22 Aug 02 - 12:50 AM

Lyr. Add: EAST VIRGINIA (Buell Kazee)

I was born and bred in east Virginia
But it's North Carolina where I did roll
There I fell to a pretty fair lady
But her name and ways I did not know.

Her hair it was of a dark brown color
And her cheeks they were a rosy red
And on her breast she wore a white lily
And tears for her I have often shed.

Her father said that we would never marry
Her mother said "He's the devil, dear"
Well if you say you live for me
Then you surely have not a thing to fear.

When I was lost and in the mountains
The pretty birds were flying through the air
I dreamt of that girl that I loved so dearly
With her laughing face and flowing hair.

Now if you don't think that I'm a fool about you
Then honey just look what a fool I've been
And if you don't think that I'm sinking slowly
Then just see what a hole I'm in.

And when I'm gone and lost- forever
Our memory lost in the sun
I want you to come around
And think about what we could have done.

For I'd rather be in some dark holler
Where the sun refused to shine
Than for you to be another man's woman
And never on this sweet earth to call you mine.

East Virginia . Said to be the Kazee version (1927?). A bit over-written.

"The Broken Engagement" has been collected in Texas by William A. Owens, 1950, Texas Folk Songs, p. 172-173, with music. Texas Folklore Society.

Subject: Lyr Add: THE DROWSY SLEEPER
From: Dicho (Frank Staplin)
Date: 22 Aug 02 - 01:37 AM

Randolph has six versions of "The Drowsy Sleeper." One contains reference to the "silver dagger." Two lines are missing, but enough is given to make Richie's point. The Traditional Ballad Index gives the earliest date for "The Drowsy Sleeper" as 1855, in The Social Harp- first verse only. Randolph says that many English, Scottish and American references are found in JAFL (various issues, 1907-1922) and a number of other American and Canadian texts and references.

THE DROWSY SLEEPER

Arise, arise, you drowsy sleeper,
Arise, arise, it's almost day.
Oh who is there at my bedroom window,
Weeping there so bitterly.

'Tis I, 'tis I, your own true lover,
Weeping there so bitterly,
Oh May dear, go ask your father
If we might wed a bride shall be.

(Two lines missing)
If he says no, just come and tell me,
And I no more will bother thee.

I will not go and ask my father,
For he is slumbering at his rest,
And by his side a silver dagger
To pierce the heart that I love best.

Then May dear, go ask your mother
If we might wed a bride shall be.
If she says no, just come and tell me,
And I no more will bother thee.

I will not go and ask my mother,
For she is slumbering at her rest,
And by her side she behold (sic) a dagger
To pierce the heart that I love best.

Then Willie drew a silver dagger,
And pierced it in his own true heart,
Farewell my love, farewell forever,
Farewell, my love, now we must part.

Then may she drew the bloody weapon, And pierced it through her snow white breast,
Farewell, blind world, farewell forever,
Farewell, blind world, now we must part.

Miss Ollie Murray, Missouri, 1927. Randolph, Ozark Folksongs, vol. I, British Ballads and Songs, pp. 244-249.
Now we must ask ourselves, does "East Virginia" qualify as a distinct song? For practical purposes, it must, otherwise a simple song of two separated lovers, one untrue, and a ballad of bloody gore as the result of the girl's parents refusal to allow a marriage, are put in the same bin. Most song collectors have kept them separate.

Subject: Lyr Add: EAST VIRGINIA
From: Stewie
Date: 22 Aug 02 - 02:15 AM

Dicho, wherever it originates, it ain't the Kazee text. Here is my transcription of Kazee's recording - in the second stanza, it sounds to me like he is singing 'curly', but it could be 'color'. [Dale will be pleased to note that I used the American spelling, albeit reluctantly].

EAST VIRGINIA
(Traditional)

Oh, when I left old East Virginia
North Carolina I did roam
There I courted a fair, young lady
What was her name I did not know

Her hair it was of a dark brown color (curly?)
Her cheeks they were a rosy red
Upon her breast she wore a ribbon
Oh don't I wish that I was dead

Her papa said that we might marry
Her mama said it would not do
Oh come here dear and I will tell you
I will tell you what I'll do

Some dark night we'll take a ramble
I will run away with you

For I'd rather be in some dark holler
Where the sun refuse to shine
As for you to be some other man's woman
Never on earth to call you mine

Source: transcription of Buell Kazee 'East Virginia' recorded 20 April 1927 in New York City. Issued Brunswick Br 154 in November 1927. Reissued on Various Artists 'Anthology of American Folk Music Vol III' (Harry Smith) Smithsonian/Folkways SFW 40090.

--Stewie.

Subject: Lyr Add: EAST VIRGINIA and O! MOLLY DEAR GO ASK...
From: Stewie
Date: 22 Aug 02 - 03:45 AM

Richie,

The only Mike Seeger version that I have is with Ralph Stanley and Jack Cooke. I have transcribed the lyrics - hope it is what you are after. I have also transcribed Kelly Harrell's 'Molly' which begins with 'Drowsy Sleeper' lines and later shares (more or less) stanzas with Shelton's recording.

I do not have access to Sharp texts. I would be interested in seeing 'Awake, awake' - can you post it? Certainly, Meade, Spottswood, Meade must believe in a British connection because they place 'Oh Molly Dear', 'Katie Dear', 'Drowsy Sleeper' under the category of 'British Ballads'. Unfortunately, they give no British references, only references to American collections such as Brown and Belden. I reckon you are right in saying the connection is through 'Drowsy Sleeper'.

EAST VIRGINIA

I was born in East Virginia
North Carolina I did go
There I courted a fair young maiden
But her age I did not know

Oh her hair was dark and curly
And her cheeks were rosy red
On her breast she wore white lilies
Where I longed to lay my head

Molly dear, go ask your mother
If you my bride might ever be
If she says no, come back and tell me
And I'll run away with you

I'll go back to East Virginia
North Carolina ain't my home
I'll go back to East Virginia
Leave old North Carolina alone

The ocean's deep and I can't wade it
And I have no wings to fly
I'll just get some blue-eyed boatman
For to row me over the tide

Oh you know I'd like to see you
At my door you're welcome in
At my gate I'll always greet you
For you're the girl I tried to win

Source: transcription of Mike Seeger, Ralph Stanley and Jack Cooke 'East Virginia' on Mike Seeger 'Third Annual Farewell Reunion' Rounder CD 0313.

O! MOLLY DEAR GO ASK YOUR MOTHER

Wake up, wake up, you drowsy sleeper
Wake up, wake up, for it's almost day
How can you stand to sleep and slumber
When your true lover's going away

Once I lived in old Virginia
To North Carolina I did go
There I spied a nice young lady
Oh her name I did not know

Her hair was black and her eyes was sparkling
And on her cheeks were diamonds red
And on her breast she wore a lily
Oh/o'er the tears that I did shed

When I'm asleep I'm dreaming about her
When I'm awake I see no rest
Every moment seems like an hour
Oh the pains that cross my breast

Oh Molly dear, go ask your mother
If you my bride can ever be
If she says no, come back and tell me
And I no more will trouble thee

Oh no, I'll not go ask my mother
For she lies on her bed at rest
And in one hand she holds a dagger
To kill the man that I love best

Source: transription of Kelly Harrell 'O! Molly Dear Go Ask Your Mother' recorded 9 June 1926 in New York City. Issued as Victor 20280 December 1926. Reissued on Kelly Harrell 'Complete Recorded Works Vol I (1925-1926) Document DOCD-8026.

--Stewie.

Subject: Lyr Add: AWAKE! AWAKE!
From: GUEST,GUEST- richie
Date: 22 Aug 02 - 08:50 AM

Below is Sharp 57-A, I've got two English versions in my collection entitled "Arise! Arise!" The English versions (one by Sharp) have the "drowsy sleeper" image and the father "holds the weapon" in the US versions the weapon usually becomes "the silver dagger," ending usually in the tragic double suicide. No one is certain how the two became entwined.

I also have one version from Virginia with the "Arise! Arise!" title. The Bascom Lunsford version has "the bloody dagger" but it's not silver (probably some cheap iron).

Note in the Sharp version the "down in some lone valley" which is the "East Virginia/Dark Hollow" reference. Sharp has many version collected in the US.

AWAKE! AWAKE!
Sharp No. 57-A; Sung by Mary Sands at Allanstand, NC Aug. 1, 1916

1. Awake! Awake! You drowsy sleeper,
Awake! Awake! It's almost day;
How can you lie and sleep and slumber,
And your true love going far away.

2. Say, my love, go ask your mother,
If you my bride, my bride shal be;
And if she says, "No" love come and tell me,
It will be the last time I'll bother thee.

3. I'll not go ask my mother,
For she lies on her bed at rest;
And in her hands she holds a paper
That speaks the most of my distress.

4. Say, my love, go ask your father,
If you my bride, my bride shall be;
And if she says, "No" love come and tell me,
It will be the last time I'll bother thee.

5. I will not go ask my father,
For he lies on his bed at rest;
And in his hands he holds a weapon,
To kill the man that I love best.

6. I'll go down in some lone valley,
And spend my weeks, my months, my many years,
And I'll eat nothing but green willow,
And I'll drink nothing but my tears.

7. Then come back, come back, my own true lover,
Come back, come back in grief cried she,
And I'll forsake both father and mother,
And I'll cry, love, and pity thee.

Richie

HTML line breaks added. --JoeClone, 9-Apr-03.

Subject: RE: Help: Age of 'East Virginia'?
From: GUEST,Guest
Date: 22 Aug 02 - 09:47 AM

Stewie-

The Mike Seeger is on Vanguard VRS-9150, LP (1964), cut#A.02. Anyone have the lyrics?

Also it was Frank Warner that my grandfather sent down to Beech Mountain to meet Frank Proffitt and get a dulcimer. Is that Frank enough?

I also think there is a "East Virginia" connection with (the verse only) "Poor Wayfaring Stranger" with lyrics (vague) meter and tune. Anyone see this?

Subject: Lyr Add: EAST VIRGINIA (from Peter Tork/Monkees)
From: GUEST,GUEST- Richie
Date: 22 Aug 02 - 11:03 AM

I want to thank you Mudcatters for your resourcefulness. I think we've uncovered some important connections here. If anyone has any additional "Drowsy Sleeper" lyrics, I'd like to see them.

I'm signing off for now but want to leave you with "the Monkees" version or East Virginia (If The Monkees covered it you know it's an important song).

"EAST VIRGINIA" by the Monkees
Lyrics by Peter Tork

1. I was born in East Virginia
North Carolina, I did roam
There I met a sweet young maiden
Her name and age, I do not know

2. Her hair it was a light brown color
And her cheeks were ruby red
On her breast she wore white lilies
There I longed to lay my head

3. I'd rather be in some dark hollow
Where the sun refuse to shine
Than to see her with another
And to know she'd never be mine

4. I was born in East Virginia
North Carolina, I did roam
There I met a sweet young maiden
Her name and age, I do not know
Her name and age, I do not know

I realized I could get in trouble for posting lyrics that were written by Peter Tork.

Richie

HTML line breaks added. --JoeClone, 9-Apr-03.

Subject: RE: Help: Age of 'East Virginia'?
From: Dicho (Frank Staplin)
Date: 22 Aug 02 - 12:29 PM

There are five more "Drowsy Sleeper" versions from Missouri and Arkansas in Vance Randolph's Ozark Folksongs, vol. 1. I will put them here or email if there is interest. He also has several versions of "Silver Dagger."

Thhere are others, also "Silver Dagger," in Brown, but I only have the fragments given with the music in vol. 4.

In two versions of "Silver Dagger" collected by Cox (Folk-Songs From The South) from West Virginia, the maid stabs herself first, then the youth uses the bloody dagger on himself. Both read like old broadsheet emissions.

Cox also gives two versions of "The Drowsy Sleeper," In one, the sleeper is called on to "Rouse up, rouse up," and in the last verse:
Down in the meadow there lies a sharp arrow;
I'll draw it across my peaceful breast;
It will cut off all love and sorrow,
And send my peaceful soul to rest.

Subject: RE: Help: Age of 'East Virginia'?
From: Dicho (Frank Staplin)
Date: 22 Aug 02 - 12:37 PM

Stewie, I had doubts about the "Buell Kazee" version that I copied; that is why I put in "said to be." From the mis-spellings on the website, I believe it may have been transcribed by a non-English speaker. Thanks for the authentic one.

Subject: RE: Help: Age of 'East Virginia'?
From: Stewie
Date: 22 Aug 02 - 07:38 PM

Dicho, my pleasure. Kazee's later recording for Folkways was even shorter - he dropped the second stanza.

Richie, I take it the Seeger solo version differs from what I posted - I can't help you with the Vanguard recording. Thanks for posting 'Awake, Awake'. The 'lone valley' stanza (6) seems to be a floater from the 'Little Sparrow'/Willow Tree versions of 'Fair and Tender Ladies' which were referred to in a recent thread. Dillard Chandler recorded a version of 'Awake, Awake' on his Folkways album 'Old Love Songs and Ballads' (unfortunately I don't have it) and he also has a willow tree stanza.

I have an interesting 1929 recording of 'Drowsy Sleeper' by Wilmer Watts and His Lonely Eagles under the title 'Sleepy Desert'. I will have a go at transcribing it later but, since it is reissued from a Paramount 78 (and most sides from that label sound like they were recorded under water and pressed on corrugated cardboard), there may be a number of gaps.

That Peter Tork was certainly a creative lad!

--Stewie.

Subject: RE: Help: Age of 'East Virginia'?
From: toadfrog
Date: 22 Aug 02 - 09:19 PM

The Bodelian Balad index features this version of "Drowsy Sleeper." Assuming it's the same song (how do we know that?) that takes us back to 1817. But how we get from there to the Seventeenth Century is still not clear. Actually, "Drowsy Fleeper":

Awake awake ye drowsy fleeper,
Awake awake, 'tis almost day!
How can you fleep, ye darling creature
Since you have ftole my heart away?

It scans the same as East Virginia, in any event, and has a fimilar theme.

Subject: Lyr Add: DROWSY SLEEPER
From: GUEST
Date: 22 Aug 02 - 11:37 PM

This is earliest tune I could find. It dates to 1830's. Below that, I've included some info about Sharp and Mary Sand's version of Drowsy Sleeper "Awake! Awake!" that I posted yesterday. The Appalachians were a remote area and fairly isolated. It can be assumed that since "the Drowsy Sleeper" was widespread in the region (Sharp collected a dozen versions.) that it came over from England with some of the early settlers in the region. It will take a trip to the library for me to find out the early English sources and dates. Anyone have anything from England?

DROWSY SLEEPER - England.
Words: Collated from a large number of sources, dating from the 1830's. Tune: Collected from Dorset, England.

1. Arise, arise, you drowsy sleeper,
Awake, awake, it's almost day.
O come into your bedroom window
And hear what your true love do say.

2. Begone, begone, you'll wake my mother,
My father, too, will quickly hear.
Go tell your tales unto some other,
And whisper softly in her ear.

3. O then, O then, go ask your father
If he'll consent you my bride to be.
If he denies you, come and tell me
For it's the last time I'll visit thee.

4. My father's in his chamber, writing,
And setting down his merchandise,
And in his hand he holds a letter
And it speaks much to your dispraise.

5. To my dispraise, love, to my dispraise,
To my dispraise, love, how could it be?
I never slighted, nor yet denied you.
Until this night you've denied me.

6. It's then, O then, go ask your mother
If she'll consent you my bride to be.
If she denies you, come and tell me
For it's the last time I'll visit thee.

7. My mother's in her chamber, sleeping,
And words of love she will not hear,
So you may go and court another
And whisper softly in her ear.

CECIL SHARP, MARY SANDS- Cecil Sharp first met Mary Sands on Monday, 31 July 1916, when she arrived at their lodgings shortly after breakfast. Mary, then aged 45, was the mother of nine children. A tenth child, John Wesley Sands, was to arrive on 28 August, less than a month after their meeting. Mary gave Sharp six ballads that day - 'six first raters', he called them. These were The Silk Merchant's Daughter, a version of Pretty Nancy of Yarmouth, which Mary called The Perbadus Lady, The Brown Girl, Lord Bateman, Fair Margaret and Sweet William and Come You People Old and Young, a version of The Suffolk Miracle which Sharp described as 'curious'.

Mary Sands again called on Sharp the following morning, singing him a further six songs and ballads. Sharp's diary makes mention of Arise, Arise, You Drowsy Sleepers, The Daemon Lover and Mary's version of Earl Brand, though not of the other three songs collected that day, The Little Soldier Boy, I Am a Man of Honour, and The Broken Token.

Dicho- I am interested in any Drowsy Sleeper versions that have references to Virginia, North Carolina or "the dark valley/dark hollow/deep blue sea" lyrics.

I will check out the English- Dear Companion. I have studied all of the Child ballads but long ago. Written in my notes it says, "this (drowsy sleeper) is related to Child 65" but now I don't see it.

Also does someone have the lyrics to Lomax's 1937 "Greenback Dollar" and is this the earliest Greenback Dollar title?

Richie

Subject: RE: Help: Age of 'East Virginia'?
From: Dicho (Frank Staplin)
Date: 22 Aug 02 - 11:37 PM

The Traditional Ballad Index takes "The Drowsy Sleeper" back to 1855 (noted previously) but the version found at the Bodeleian by Toadfrog puts the date back to 1817. These broadsides were mostly cheap printings of still older songs. I have looked under "Silver Dagger," "Go From My Window, "(Fond) Affection," "Broken Heart," and "Sorrow" but found nothing that fits.
This version has "Jemmy" going to sea and the maid apparently sets out to starve herself. The brides portion of 5000 pounds does not seem to appear in the American versions.
Because this seems to be the earliest, and because of its difference from others, I am adding the full text.

Lyr. Add: THE DROWSY SLEEPER (1817)

Awake, awake, ye drowsy sleeper,
Awake, awake, 'tis almost day,
How can you sleep my charming creature
Since you have stole my heart away.

Begone, begone, you will wake my mother,
My father he will quickly hear.
Begone, begone and court some other,
But whisper softly in my ear.

Her father, hearing the Lovers talking,
Nimbly jumped out of bed,
He put his head out of the window,
But this young man quickly fled.

Turn back, turn back, don't be called a rover,
Jemmy turn back and sit you by my side.
You may stay while his passions over,
Jemmy I will be your lovely bride.

O daughter, daughter, I will confine you,
Jemmy he shall go to sea,
And you may write your truelove a letter,
And he may read it when far away.

O father, pay me down my portion,
Which is five thousand pounds you know,
And I'll cross the wide watery ocean
Where all the hills are covered with snow.

No, I will not pay down your portion,
Which is five thousand pounds I know,
Nor you shant cross the wide watry ocean,
Where the hills are covered with snow.

O daughter, daughter I will confine you,
And all within your private room,
And you shall live on bread and water,
Once a day and that at noon.

No, I will have none of your bread and water,
Nor nothing else that you have,
If I can't have my heart's desire,
Single i will go to my grave.

Crome printer (Sheffield- in ink)
Harding B 28 (233) Bodleian Library

Quite a variance from "East Virginia." Most song compilations separate "Silver Dagger,' "Drowsy Sleeper," Fond Affection," etc., although there are parallels and wandering verses. The simplicity of "East Virginia," to me, suggests that it may have originated independently. I guess that this can be argued indefinitely.

Subject: RE: Help: Age of 'East Virginia'?
From: Malcolm Douglas
Date: 23 Aug 02 - 12:07 AM

The last Drowsy Sleeper text Ritchie quotes is from Stephen Sedley's book, The Seeds of Love (1967), and is one of two separate songs he "constructed" from the same seven (!) separate sources; not, I'm afraid, evidence of anything at all apart from Sedley's extravagant imagination and complete lack of concern for authenticity. The tune was from Marina Russell of Upwey in Dorset, noted early 20th century, incidentally. The only 1830s source cited for any of that dog's breakfast was "a note in Cunningham's 1834 edition of Burns", whatever that might have been.

No offence intended; Sedley makes me cross. I'm sure that he didn't intend to promulgate so many misunderstandings (he apparantly did some very worthwhile collecting of his own, particularly among Travellers), but that has tended to be the effect of his book.

I do have some of the Drowsy Sleeper material that Sharp noted in England, and will try to sort some out later if it looks like being useful. Meanwhile, perhaps a few tunes might be in order for some of these texts? It might help to see if there are demonstrable connections there.

Subject: RE: Help: Age of 'East Virginia'?
From: Stewie
Date: 23 Aug 02 - 12:26 AM

Richie, in respect of commercial recordings, the earliest under the title was by Davis and Nelson in 1929 - 'I Don't Want Your Greenback Dollar'[Pmt 3188]. Tom Ashley and Gwen Foster recorded it under the title 'Greenback Dollar' in 1933. There were recordings by Callahan Brothers and Roy Acuff in 1936.

--Stewie.

Subject: RE: Help: Age of 'East Virginia'?
From: GUEST
Date: 23 Aug 02 - 09:15 AM

Stewie-

For the Kazee lyrics (2nd verse) posted Aug. 22, I have:

2. Her hair, it was all dark brown curly, Her cheeks they were all rosy red Upon her breast she wore a ribbon, O don't I wish that I was there.

What do you think?

What are Clarence Ashley lyrics?

Richie

Subject: Lyr Add: East Virginia (from Ralph Stanley)
From: GUEST,Richie
Date: 23 Aug 02 - 10:28 AM

Dicho and Masato-

This is one of the East Virginia Blues from Carter Family I have. It's different than the two posted by Dicho above.
This is the version sung by Ralph Stanley. Which version is this?

CARTER FAMILY

1. I was born in East Virginia
North Carolina I did go
There I met a fair, young maiden
And her name, I did not know

2. Oh her hair was dark and curly
Cheeks were roses red
Oh, her breast she wore white lilies
Where I long to lay my head

3.I don't want your greenback dollar
I don't want your watch and chain
All I want is your heart, darling
Say you'll take me back again

4. The oceans deep and I can't wade in
And I have no wings to fly
I'll just get me a blue eyed boatman
Or you'll row me over the tide

5. I'll go back to East Virginia
North Carolina ain't my home
I'll go back to East Virginia
Leave them North Carolinians alone.

Richie

HTML line breaks added. --JoeClone, 9-Apr-03.

Subject: RE: Help: Age of 'East Virginia'?
From: John Minear
Date: 23 Aug 02 - 10:33 AM

Here are Dillard Chandler's lyrics for "Awake, Awake", from OLD LOVE SONGS AND BALLADS FROM THE BIG LAUREL, NORTH CAROLINA, Folkways Records, Album No. 2309(available from Smithsonian Folkways). This was recorded by John Cohen and Peter Gott in August of 1963.

Awake, awake, my own true lover
Awake, awake it's almost day;
How can you bear love to sleep and slumber
And your own true lover a-going away.

I'll go all down on yander's river
I'll spend my weeks, my months, my days,
It's I'll eat nothing but green willow
Nor I'll drink nothing but my tears.

Come back, come back, my own true lover
Come back, come back, in grief cried she
It's go and ask your pappa if I mayn't have you
And if he says no please come back and tell me
It'll be the last time I'll bother you.

Oh no I can't, nor I neither won't do it
For he lies on his bedside at rest
And in his hand he holds a weapon
For to kill that boy who I love best.

I'll go all down on yander's river
I'll spend my weeks, my months, my days,
It's I'll eat nothing but green willow
Nor I'll drink nothing but my tears.

Come back, come back my own true lover
Come back, come back in grief cried she,
I will forsake both father and mother
I'll cry so loud and pity thee.

Subject: RE: Help: Age of 'East Virginia'?
From: Dicho (Frank Staplin)
Date: 23 Aug 02 - 08:07 PM

Richie, I got somewhat different words for the Stanley Brothers, also more verses. You list as Carter Family, then say it is the version sung by Ralph Stanley ??

Verse 1.
(Same)
Verse 2.
On her breast she wore white linen.
(Otherwise same)
Verse 3.
Molly dear, go ask your mother
If you my bride might ever be
If she says no, come back and tell me
And I'll run away with thee.
Verse 4.
No I'll not go ask my mother Where she lies on her bed of rest.
For in her hand she holds a dagger
To kill the man I love best.
Verse 5.
Same as Richie's verse 3 (Green back dollar floater)
Verse 6.
Same as Richie's verse 4 (The ocean's deep)
Verse 7.
I'll go back to East Virginia
North Carolina ain't my home
I'll go back to East Virginia
Leave old North Carolina alone.
Verse 8
Oh you know I'd like to see you
At my door you're welcome in.
At my gate I'll always greet you
For you're the girl I tried to win.

Taken from: Stanley Brothers. East Virginia Blues
The Stanley Brothers were noted for changes in words from performance to performance. The website above lists source recordings under discography but I haven't checked.

Subject: Lyr Add: THE UNTRUE LOVER (Drowsy Sleeper)
From: Dicho (Frank Staplin)
Date: 23 Aug 02 - 08:40 PM

Turtle Old Man, the inventiveness of the ballad singer is abundantly evident from the many versions of these songs. Here is another from Randolph:

Lyr. Add: THE UNTRUE LOVER (Drowsy Sleeper)

Oh who is this at my bedroom window?
Oh who is this a-botherin' me?
'Tis I, 'tis i your own true lover,
Awake, arise an' let me in.

Awake, arise and ask your father,
Go ask him if you my bride can be.
Oh no, I can not ask my father
For he is on his bed of rest.

Oh love, arise an' ask your mother,
Go ask her if you my bride can be.
Oh no, I will not ask my mother,
For your true love I can never be.

Farewell, farewell, my untrue lover,
For the very last time I will bother thee,
For if you loved me, you would foller
Far, far acrost the deep blue sea.

For days then how her heart did flutter,
With grief when she thought of the deep blue sea,
She cried my lover's gone a-sailin',
So far, so far away from me.

She goes down to the deep blue water,
And sends her thoughts o'er the briny sea,
She plunged into its fathomless bosom,
Sayin' here I take my final sleep.

Miss Leone Duvall, MO, 1923. Randolph, Ozark Folksongs, vol. 1, pp. 245-246 (The Drowsy Sleeper, # 52B).

No music given, but similar to that of "The Drowsy Sleeper" from Miss Ollie Murray, in Randolph, posted previously. Several I have posted have music; I will email to anyone wanting a copy.

Subject: Lyr Add: EAST VIRGINIA
From: GUEST,Richie
Date: 23 Aug 02 - 09:41 PM

Dicho- the Ralph Stanley lyrics I posted were from "The Bluegrass Fakebook," by Bert Casey. Ralph Stanley-"Long Journey Home." However, I had the same lyrics from the Carter Family from somewhere on the web. I wondered if Stanley got them the Carter's, maybe another version. Does anyone know? Here they are again:

1. I was born in East Virginia
North Carolina I did go
There I met a fair, young maiden
And her name, I did not know

2. Oh her hair was dark and curly
Cheeks were roses red
Oh, her breast she wore white lilies
Where I long to lay my head

3. I don't want your greenback dollar
I don't want your watch and chain
All I want is your heart, darling
Say you'll take me back again

4. The oceans deep and I can't wade in
And I have no wings to fly
I'll just get me a blue eyed boatman
Or you'll row me over the tide

5. I'll go back to East Virginia
North Carolina ain't my home
I'll go back to East Virginia
Leave them North Carolinians alone. (From Bert Casey)

Sharp has Silver Dagger (No. 165) separate from No. 167 "In Old Virginny" the B version is similar to the version I sing but the words are different. Both start setting the stage for the coming tragedy, Draw nigh young men, and pay attention, To these few lines, I'm going to write."

I haven't had time to go to the library but I'd like to find how old "Drowsy Sleeper" (Arise, Arise) is in England. I'll post Sharp- Version D of "Old Virginny" later this weekend when I get time.

Richie

HTML line breaks added. --JoeClone, 9-Apr-03.

Subject: Lyr Add: DARK HOLLER BLUES and GREENBACK DOLLAR
From: Stewie
Date: 23 Aug 02 - 09:54 PM

Richie

I went back and listened again carefully to the second stanza of the Kazee recording. In the first line, I still hear 'of a' rather than 'all', but it is definitely 'curly', not 'color'. In the second line, it could be 'a' or 'all'. In the last line you are right: it is 'there', not 'dead'. On the surface, I reckon it sounds like 'dead' but, when you listen closely, you can here the 're' of 'there'. Thanks for the corrections - I'm an Aussie struggling with American regional accents in these matters. Kazee is usually more distinct than this. He is a breeze compared to Uncle Dave, Charlie Poole, Fiddlin' John Carson and others. Kazee had also had some formal singing training and he recalled that he had to 'unlearn' his formal vocal techniques to get a record 'bad enough that it would sell'.

Perhaps a JoeClone could correct the second stanza of the Kazee transcriptions above.

Here is how I hear the Ashley lyrics you requested:

DARK HOLLER BLUES

I was born in old Virginia
South Carolina I did go
There I courted a purty little woman
But her age I did not know

Well her hair was brown and curly
Oh her cheeks was rosy red
On her breast she wore white lilies
Oh the tears that I have shed

When I'm asleep I'm dreaming about you
When I wake I have no rest
Every moment seems like an hour
Oh the pains go through my breast

I'd rather be in some dark holler
Where the sun don't never shine
(Than) for you to be some other man's darling
When you ain't no longer mine

Papa says I must not marry
Mama says it will never do
But, little girl, if you are willing
I will run away with you

I'd rather be in some dark holler
Where the sun don't never shine
(Than) for you to be some other man's darling
When you ain't no longer mine

When I'm asleep I'm dreaming about you
When I wake I have no rest
Every moment seems like an hour
Oh the pains go through my breast

Source: Clarence 'Tom' Ashley 'Dark Holler Blues' recorded 23 October 1929 in Johnson City, Tenn. Issued as Co 15489-D in February 1930. Reissued on 'The Music of Clarence "Tom" Ashley 1929-1933: Greenback Dollar' County CO-CD-3520.


GREENBACK DOLLAR

Once I loved a darling seaman
And he thought this world of me
Till another girl persuaded
Now he cares no more for me

I don't want your greenback dollar
I don't want your watch and chain
All I want is your heart darling
Won't you take me back again

Many a stroll we've made together
Down beside the deep blue sea
If it's in your heart you love another
In my grave I'd rather be

I don't want your greenback dollar
I don't want your watch and chain
All I want's my 32-20
Just to shoot out your dirty brain

Papa says we cannot marry
Mama says, ' He'll never do'
If you ever learn to love me
I will run away with you

Source: Clarence 'Tom' Ashley (vcl, gtr) and Gwen Foster (hca) 'Greenback Dollar' recorded 6 September 1933 in New York City. Issued as Vo 02554 in December 1933. Reissued on 'The Music of Clarence "Tom" Ashley 1929-1933: Greenback Dollar' County CO-CD-3520.

--Stewie.

Subject: RE: Help: Age of 'East Virginia'?
From: Stewie
Date: 23 Aug 02 - 09:58 PM

In the previous posting (third line), it should read you can 'hear' the 're' of 'there' - it was only a slip; my spelling hasn't gotten that bad as yet!

--Stewie.

Subject: RE: Help: Age of 'East Virginia'?
From: GUEST,Richie
Date: 23 Aug 02 - 11:21 PM

Stewie-

Thanks. You are, in my opinion, one of the best researchers at Mudcat. You really put some great lyrics on here. I have used Uncle Dave's lyrics as a basis for one of my songs entitled, "Go Long Mule." You can change a fool but a doggone mule is a mule until he dies. Did you ever know anyone that reminds you of a mule? As for spelling-fh wii ;

Back to the Kazee-don't you think this line would be best sung (edited)?

Her papa said that we might marry, Her mama said it would not do. Some dark night we'll take a ramble, I will run away with you.

Aslo I finally looked through my Child ballads and and there is a slight connection of "East Virginia" (the "O Molly dear"- "Drowsy Sleeper" ) with Child 214 'The Braes O' Yarrow' or the 'Dowie Den's O Yarrow'. This is one of my favorite tragedies: Niles has several versions from Appalachia and Peggy Seeger has collected one. The meter 3/4 time is the same as is the melodic structure, with similar phrases and lyrics. Here's an example of one line from my notebooks:

O mother dear, go make my bed, Go make it neat and narrow. For my love died for me tonight, I will die for him tommorrow.

It seems possible that the "O mother dear" line could be entertwined with our tragic ballad, "O Molly dear".

Any thoughts, anyone?

Subject: RE: Help: Age of 'East Virginia'?
From: Dicho (Frank Staplin)
Date: 23 Aug 02 - 11:55 PM

I guess all of our material on "Awake" is covered by copyright. Older versions British and American are a chimera to mislead us into heresy. I came across this website: Ritchie
"In spite of several references to 'Awake' as a traditional American Folk Song, it is our belief that it should be credited to Ms. Jean Ritchie, and future pressings of the album will reflect this change. Awake verse 4 copyright 1953-1965 Jean Ritchie Geordie Music Publishing Co. ASCAP Arr. Fraser (Scott Fraser 2001, Oannes Music ASCAP)"

Subject: RE: Help: Age of 'East Virginia'?
From: Dicho (Frank Staplin)
Date: 24 Aug 02 - 12:09 AM

Backing away from © nonsense, another possible relationship is pointed to by a song called "The Lover's Ghost," set by Ralph Vaughan Williams, "also known as "The Suffolk Miracle," "The Grey Cock," and "The Drowsy Sleeper."" Seems to be stretching it too far from my (faint) memory of these songs but I haven't re-checked the texts. Lover's Ghost
Apparently a German site.

Subject: RE: Help: Age of 'East Virginia'?
From: GUEST,Richie
Date: 24 Aug 02 - 01:07 AM

Dicho-

One of my pet peeves are people that claim to ownership of any folksong. Even the people that the songs were first collected from got them from someone else! (It was gracious of Frank Warner to share the royalties of Tom (Dula)Dooley but did Frank Proffit write Tom Dooley?) You can arrange a folksong but only the extent that it differs from any exsisting version can you claim ownership- not to the entire song! That really is a great example of copyright abuse by a copyright holder- Right on Dicho.

The Lover's Ghost above seems to be more a variant of "The House Carpenter" Child 243 with the "Well met" line but some versions of the "Suffolk Miracle" in the US have an "O Father," line plus the meter (3/4) and cadence are similar.

Richie

Subject: RE: Help: Age of 'East Virginia'?
From: Dicho (Frank Staplin)
Date: 24 Aug 02 - 01:46 AM

A Canadian variant of "The Drowsy Sleeper;" "Who Is At My Window Weeping." ("Arise, arise, and pity me;" a "shining sword" instead of a dagger). "The Drowsy Sleeper" and "Silver Dagger" are entangled with each other in many variants. Who Is At My Window Weeping?

Subject: Lyr Add: SLEEPY DESERT
From: Stewie
Date: 24 Aug 02 - 04:53 AM

Richie,

I couldn't agree more. The last 2 lines of the third stanza are rather clumsy. In his truncated version for Folkways [FS 381], Kazee omitted his original second stanza and changed stanza 3, to become stanza 2:

Her papa said that we must marry
Her mother said it would not do
So come here, dear, and I will tell you
I will take you far from here

He then continues with the 2-line stanza and concludes with the 'dark holler' stanza. This is better, but I prefer your suggestion. These songs are not meant to be set in concrete. Tim Eriksen [of Cordelia's Dad] puts it beautifully in his essay in the booklet accompanying the first volume of the Warner Collection on CD. He is talking about field recordings, but the early old-time commercial recordings, particularly of the 1920s, were just as important in terms of preserving 'the tradition':

If we wear the feathers of an eagle will we acquire her speed? If we collect field recordings will we attain 'tradition'? The idea that such things are possible is esoteric magic, and is as old as Adam. The value in this music, however real it may be, can't exist outside of perception and experience. It simply can't be preserved or materialised - though the recordings contain its echo, calling it to mind. It seems to me the only reliable way to keep something alive is to live it, thinking less about what we have and what we know and more about what we do with it. I doubt we can keep the past alive any more than it already is, and what we call 'tradition' is probably our most durable storage format. Everything we live will become something, and everything we set in stone will remain there until it becomes nothing, or someone makes something of it. In ten million years the English language is likely to have turned into something, though unfamiliar, but all the books we know, along with this CD, are likely to have gone to nothing (though not without making their contribution). The cool thing is that this music is present, it's perceivable, and it's ready to live if we give it a home. We can even sing these songs and, with diligence, sing them well. [Tim Eriksen, p30 of his essay in booklet insert to Various Artists 'Her Bright Smile Haunts Me Still: The Warner Collection Vol I' Appleseed APR CD-1035]

The recording of Wilmer Watts' 'Sleepy Desert' was cleaned up better than I recalled. I think I got most of it - uncertain bits in brackets. Corrections anyone?

SLEEPY DESERT

Wake, oh wake, you sleepy desert
Wake, oh wake, it's a-comin' day
Oh stick your head out of the window
See what your true lover say

Some people says that courting's pleasure
Oh what pleasure do I see
When the dearest girl in this world
Has done and turned her back on me

Wake, oh wake, you sleepy desert
Wake, oh wake, it's a-comin' day
Oh stick your head out of the window
See what your true lover say

There's no one (to follow to) bedroom
There's no one to sleep with me
I got a wife way up in heaven
And the Lord knows she loves me

Wake, oh wake, you sleepy desert
Wake, oh wake, it's a-comin' day
Oh stick your head out of the window
See what your true lover say

You (needn't to bother) to ask my papa
He's in his room a-takin' his rest
And in his hand he holds a weapon
To kill the man that I love best

Source: transcription of Wilmer Watts and His Lonely Eagles 'Sleepy Desert' recorded 29 or 30 October 1929 in New York City and issued as Paramount 3282. Reissued on Various Artists 'Times Ain't Like They Used To Be: Early American Rural Music Vol III' Yazoo CD 2047.

Watts was from North Carolina and worked in the cotton mills. Band member, Palmer Rhyne, duetted on vocals on 'Sleepy Desert' and the pair were accompanied by an unidentified, but tasty, steel guitarist.

--Stewie.

Subject: Lyr Add: SILVER DAGGER (from Joan Baez)
From: Dicho (Frank Staplin)
Date: 24 Aug 02 - 11:49 AM

Contemplator has a variant of "Silver Dagger" with a new twist, apparently sung by Joan Baez. Imagery is added from the old spiritual, "Mary Had Three Links Of Chain."

Lyr. Add: SILVER DAGGER (Baez)

Don't sing love songs, you'll wake my mother
She's sleeping here right by my side
And in her right hand a silver dagger,
She says I can't be your bride.

All men are false, says my mother,
They'll tell you wicked, lovin' lies.
The very next evening, they'll court another,
Leave you alone to pine and sigh.

My daddy is a handsome devil
He's got a chain five miles long,
And on every link a heart does dangle
Of another maid he's loved and wronged.

Go court another tender maiden,
And hope that she will be your wife,
For I've been warned, and I've decided
To sleep alone all of my life.

With midi. Silver Dagger

Subject: Lyr Add: THE DROWSY SLEEPER and THE SILVER DAGGER
From: Stewie
Date: 24 Aug 02 - 10:12 PM

Cox gives 2 versions of 'Drowsy Sleeper', one under the title 'Silver Dagger' 'probably because the last 2 stanzas of it belong to that song'. For English and Scots references, Cox cites 'The Journal of American Folk-Lore' XX, p260. Of particular interest is this note: ' "The Drowsy Sleeper" an interesting variant of a song know, in a Nithsdale version, to Allan Cunningham , and given in part in a note to "O, my love's like a red, red rose" in his edition of Burns, 1834, iv, 285 (Kittredge "Journal" XX, p260'.

For American texts, Cox references several volumes of the 'Journal' [XX, 260, Kentucky; XXIX, 200, Georgia; XXX, 338, Missouri, Kentucky, Indiana, Michigan, Nebraska, Utah; XXXV, 356, Ohio]. Other references are to Sharp, Belden, Campbell and Sharp, Sturgis and Hughes, Pound and others.

The two Cox texts are reproduced below. He also has two variants of 'Silver Dagger' as his #109. Below also is a transcription of a field recording of an Illinois version of 'Drowsy Sleeper' which includes a variant of the 'willow' stanza.

THE DROWSY SLEEPER

'Rouse up, rouse up, you drowsy sleeper
Rouse up, 'tis almost day
Open your doors, let down your window
What your true love has to say'

'Go away from my window, you'll waken my mother
This thing you call courting, she does despise
Go way, go way, and court some other
For what I say, I mean no harm'

'I won't go way nor court no other
For you are the one that I love best
For you are the one that I love dearly
And in your arms I hope to rest'

'Go way from my window, you'll waken my father
Who is taking his rest
For under his pillow there lies a weapon
To kill the one that I love best'

'Down in yon meadow there lies a sharp arrow
I'll draw it across my peaceful breast
It will cut off all love and sorrow
And send my peaceful soul to rest'

Source: John Harrington Cox 'Folk-Songs of the South' #108A. Communicated by Miss Violet Noland, Davis, Tucker County, West Virginia, 24 March 1916. Obtained from Mr John Raese who learned it when a boy and wrote it down in 1880.

THE SILVER DAGGER

'O Mary, go and ask your mother
If you my wedded bride may be
And if she says no, pray come and tell me
And I'll no longer trouble thee'

'I dare not go and ask my mother
For she said she would part us
Then, Willie, go and ask another',
She gently whispered in his ear

'Then, Mary, go and ask your father
If you my wedded wife may be
And if he says no, pray come and tell me
And I'll no longer trouble thee'

'I dare not go and ask my father
For at night he lies at rest
Close to his side there lies a dagger
To pierce the heart that I love best'

Then William drew a silver dagger
And pierced it to his aching heart
Saying, 'Here's farewell, my own true lover'
Saying, 'Here's farewell for we must part'

Then Mary drew that silver dagger
And pierced it in her snow-white breast
Saying, 'Here's farewell to father and mother
Farewell to all that I love best'

Source: John Harrington Cox 'Folk-Songs of the South' #108B. Communicated by Miss Maud I. Jefferson, West Liberty, Ohio County, West Virginia, 1917. Obtained from Miss Roberts.


AWAKE, ARISE, YOU DROWSY SLEEPER

'Awake, arise, you drowsy sleeper
Awake, arise, 'tis almost day
And open wide your bedroom window
Hear what your true love has to say'

'Oh, Mary dear, go ask your father
Whether you my bride may be
And if he says no, love, come and tell me
It's the very last time I'll trouble thee'

'I dare not go to ask my father
For he lies on his couch of rest
And by his side he keeps a weapon
To slay the one that I love best'

'Oh, Mary dear, go ask your mother
Whether you my bride may be
And if says no, love, come and tell me
It's the very last time I'll trouble thee'

'I dare not go to ask my mother
To let her know my love is near
But, dearest dear, go court some other',
She gently whispered in my ear

'Oh, Mary dear, oh dearest Mary,
It is for you my heart will break
From North to South to Pennsylvania
I'll roam the ocean for your sake'

'And now I'll go down by some silent river
And there I'll spend my days and years,
And there I'll plant a weeping willow
Beneath its shade I'll shed my tears'

'Come back, come back, my wounded lover
Come back, come back to me, I pray
And I'll forsake both father, mother
And with you I'll run away'

Source: Duncan Emrich 'American Folk Poetry: An Anthology' Little, Brown and Company 1974, p83. Transcription of 'Awake, Arise, You Drowsy Sleeper' recorded by Aubrey and Phyllis Pinkerton from the singing of Lester A. Coffee, Harvard, Illinois, 1946. Library of Congress record LP55. Laws M4.

--Stewie.

Subject: Lyr Add: THE BROKEN ENGAGEMENT
From: Dicho (Frank Staplin)
Date: 24 Aug 02 - 10:50 PM

Lyr. Add: THE BROKEN ENGAGEMENT

She was standing by her window
As the breezes kissed her cheek.
He had waited long in silence,
Waited long for her to speak.

Then at last she gave an answer
As she raised her tear-filled eyes
With, oh, such a look of anger
That it filled him with surprise.

"They tell me that you love another,
That you never did love me-
If these words be true, my darling,
I'll forever set you free."

"They are true, my dear, he answered,
"True as the shining stars above;
When they told you I was innocent,
There they told you of my love."

"Goodbye, darling, I must leave you;
On the streets just pass me by;
Don't forget that I still love you,
For to save my life I die."

God in heaven sent an angel
To relieve her dreadful pain;
Then she drifted on to heaven
On an angel's snow-white wing.

He was standing by her casket
As he gazed into her face;
Then he realized that he loved her,
That no one could take her place.

Mrs. Irvin Thompson, Silsbee, Texas. From Texas Folk Songs, William A. Owens, 1950, pp. 172-173 with music. (Will email a scan if wanted)

Some collectors relate this song to "Drowsy Sleeper" but I believe that it is separate. It also seems to be incomplete.

Subject: Lyr Add: IN OLD VIRGINNY
From: GUEST,Richie
Date: 24 Aug 02 - 11:32 PM

East Virginia- "In Old Virginny" Sharp No.167-D

This is the last Sharp version I have in my notebook. I will post one of the "Silver Dagger" versions as they are different than what has been posted so far.

IN OLD VIRGINNY
Sharp No. 167- D
Sung by Mrs. Effie Mitchell at Burnsville, NC Oct. 6, 1918

Foreign land, I'm bound to station,
Foreign land, I'm bound to go,
Foreign land, I'm bound to station,
Your fair face, I'll see no more.

When I'm asleep, I'm dreaming about you,
When I'm awake, see no rest.
Every moment seems like an hour,
O that pain across my chest!

My mamma says, she is not willing,
My daddy says it'll never do.
O fair Miss, if you are willing,
I will run away with you.

This is a really bluesy version and different. Although Sharp has the measure lines and meter wrong (should be ¾) it's straight forward and easily adapted. There's has a great change to the b7 chord (C chord in the key of D major).

HTML line breaks added. --JoeClone, 9-Apr-03.

Subject: RE: Help: Age of 'East Virginia'?
From: GUEST,Richie
Date: 25 Aug 02 - 12:10 AM

IN OLD VIRGINNY Sharp No 167 D; Sung by Mrs. Effie Mitchell At Burnsville, NC Oct. 6. 1918

Foreign land, I'm bound to station,
Foreign land, I'm bound to go,
Foreign land, I'm bound to station,
Your fair face, I'll see no more.

When I'm asleep I'm dreaming about you,
When I'm awake, see no rest.
Every moment seems like an hour,
O that pain across my chest!

My mamma says, she is not willing,
My daddy says it'll never do.
O fair Miss, if you are willing,
I will run away with you.

I have reposted to try and get the HTML right. This is the last Sharp version I have in my notebook. I will post one of the "Silver Dagger version as they are different than what has been posted so far.

This is a really bluesy version and different. Although Sharp has the measure lines and meter wrong (should be ¾) it's straight forward and easily adapted. There's has a great change to the b7 chord (C chord in the key of D major).

- Richie

Subject: RE: Help: Age of 'East Virginia'?
From: masato sakurai
Date: 25 Aug 02 - 05:40 AM

Ralph Stanley's "East Virginia Blues" [no credit given] on Ralph Stanley And the Clinch Mountain Boys 1971-1973 [4-disc box set] (Rebel REB-4001) is different from the one posted by Richie (Date: 23-Aug-02 - 09:41 PM), except the first two stanzas, which are not identical either. To my knowledge, released versions by the Carter Family are the already posted two; of the two takes of "East Virginia Blues #2" on 7 May 1935, one (17482-1) is "unissued" (Kip Lornell, Virginia's Blues, Country, & Gospel Records 1902-1943). On the 4 Border Radio CDs (three are by Arhoolie) I have, this song is not contained. My unfounded guess: if the original credit was simply to "Carter", it doesn't mean "The Carter Family", but Carter Stanley.

~Masato

Subject: Lyr Add: THE SILVER DAGGER
From: GUEST,Richie
Date: 25 Aug 02 - 08:12 AM

Lyr. Add: THE SILVER DAGGER

Young men and maids, pray lend attention,
To these few lines, I'm going to write.
Concerning to you to you whose names are mentioned,
Who courted a fair and a beauty bright.

And then her old parents came to know,
They strove to part him and his dear,
They strove to part him and his dear jewel;
He strove and strived and he often strived.

And on her bended knee she bow-ed,
Saying: "Cruel parents, come pity me.
If me and my true love do part,
What will this whole world now be to me."

She turned her back upon the city,
She viewed those fields and meadows around,
She wandered across some fair, broad river,
And there in the shade of a tree sat down.

She pulled out her bright silver weapon,
She pierced it through her tender breast.
Then she began to reel and stagger,
Saying, "Oh true love, I'm going to rest."

Then her true love not a-being far behind her,
He heard her awful seethes and mourns;
She wandered up like a man that was distracted;
I'm lost, I'm ruined, I'm left alone.

She opened up her pretty blue eyes,
Saying, "Cruel parents, you've come to late,
Go try and meet me in all those Zions,
Where all our joys will be complete."

He picked up that bloody weapon,
He pierced it through his tender heart,
Now let this day be an awful warning,
To all true loves that parents part.

Sharp No. 157-A Sung by Mr. Allen at White Rock, Va. May 8, 1918

Notes: The first of two Sharp "Silver Dagger" ballads from my notebook. The tune is in ¾ meter and Dorian mode (Dm). The next to last verse should be edited: She opened up her pretty blue eyes, Saying, "My true love, you've come to late," etc. It certainly makes no sense to have her parents there, probably a juxtaposition from the third verse.

-Richie

Subject: Lyr Add: ARISE, ARISE
From: Malcolm Douglas
Date: 25 Aug 02 - 10:55 AM

To pursue for a moment the English connection, here is a set from Cecil Sharp's collection, noted in 1907. The link at the end is to a midi file; textual correspondences can be misleading on their own, so the melody is often an integral part of any consideration of relationships.

ARISE, ARISE

(Noted by Cecil Sharp from Jack Barnard, Bridgwater, Somerset, 1907)

Arise, arise, you pretty maiden,
Arise, arise, it is almost day,
And come unto your bedroom window
And hear what your true love do say.

Begone, begone, you'll awake my father,
My mother she can quickly hear;
Go and tell your tales unto some other
And whisper softly in their ear.

I won't be gone for I love no other,
You are the girl that I adore;
It's I, my dear, who love you dearly,
It's the pain of love that have brought me here.

Then the old man heard the couple talking,
He so nimbly stepped out of bed,
Putting his head out of the window,
Johnny dear was quickly fled.

Now daughter dear, tell me the reason
You will not let me take my silent rest.
I'll have you confined to your silent bedchamber
And your true love to sea I will press.

Now father dear, pay down my fortune,
It's full five thousand pounds, you know,
That I may cross the briny ocean
Where the stormy winds do blow.

Now daughter dear, you may ease your own mind
'Tis for your sweet sake that I say so;
If you cross the briny ocean
Without your fortune you must go.

Text from Susie Clarke per Jack Barnard at Bridgwater, 6 April 1907.

Cecil Sharp's Collection of English Folk Songs, ed. Maud Karpeles; vol.I no.78, p.329. OUP 1974.

Roud 402 Laws M12

Arise, Arise (midi)

Subject: RE: Help: Age of 'East Virginia'?
From: Malcolm Douglas
Date: 25 Aug 02 - 11:31 AM

t turns out that the Cunningham note referred to in Stephen Sedley's book (see above) is more extensive than I had guessed, so I reproduce it here as quoted in the Journal of the Folk Song Society, vol.I issue 5, 1904: p.269; which was probably Sedley's source. It accompanied a fragmentary set of Drowsy Sleeper, there entitled O, Who is it that Raps at My Window, noted by W. Percy Merrick in c.1899 from the prolific Henry Hills of Lodsworth in Sussex, who had learned it from his mother. The note was added by Lucy Broadwood.

"For the following very interesting information see the note on O, my luve's like a red, red rose in Alan Cunningham's Works of Robert Burns (1834). Cunningham writes: 'An old Nithsdale song seems to have been in the Poet's thoughts when he wrote this exquisite lyric... Martha Crosbie, a carder and spinner of wool, sometimes desiring to be more than commonly acceptable to the children of my father's house, made her way to their hearts by singing... the following ancient strain:-

"Who is this under my window?
Who is this that troubles me?"
"O, it is I, love, and none but I, love,
I wish to speak one word with thee.

Go to your mother, and ask her, jewel,
If she'll consent you my bride to be;
And, if she does na, come back and tell me,
This is the last time I'll visit thee."

"My mother's in her chamber, jewel,
And of lover's talking will not hear;
Therefore you may go and court another,
And whisper softly in her ear."

The song proceeds to relate how mother and father were averse to the lover's suit, and that, exasperated by their scorn, and the coldness of the maiden, he ran off in despair: on relenting, she finds he is gone, and breaks out in these fine lines:-

"O, where's he gone that I love best,
And has left me here to sigh and moan?
O I will search the wide world over,
Till my true love I find again.

The seas shall dry, and the fishes fly,
And the rocks shall melt down wi' the sun;
The labouring man shall forget his labour,
The blackbird shall not sing, but mourn,
If ever I prove false to my love,
Till once I see if he return." '

Presumably Cunningham was speaking of the use of images in the final verse rather than suggesting any relationship between the melodies used. John Ord (Bothy Songs and Ballads, 1930, pp. 318-19, prints a long set, without music, which he calls I Will Set My Ship in Order; this seems to have been the usual title of Aberdeenshire versions, of which several appear in the Greig-Duncan collection.

Subject: Lyr Add: ARISE, ARISE- Version 2
From: GUEST,richie
Date: 25 Aug 02 - 11:54 AM

Malcolm-

I have a different version of the same lyrics in one of my notebooks: Piano & Voice Arrangement- Oliver Ditson Company- Collected by Cecil Sharp. It has ten verses. I have no other notes on it. Here what I have:

lyr. add: ARISE, ARISE- Version 2

Arise, arise, you drowsy maiden,
Arise, arise, it is almost day,
O come unto your bedroom window
And hear what your true love do say.

Begone, begone, you'll awake my father,
My mother too, she can quickly hear;
Go, tell your tales unto some other
And whisper softly in her ear.

I won't be gone, I love no other,
You are the girl I do adore;
It's I, my dear, who love you dearly,
The pains of love that have brought me here.

Now when the old man heard them talking,
He nimbly stepped right out of bed,
And put his head out of the window,
Poor Johnny dear was quickly fled.

Turn back, turn back, don't be called a rover;
Turn back, turn back, and sit by my side;
O wait until his passions over,
And I will surely be your bride.

O daughter, daughter, I will not confine you,
And mother too, she will quickly hear.
Go, tell your tales unto some other,
And whisper softly in her ear.

O father, father, pay down my fortune,
It's fity thousand bright pounds, you know,
And I will cross the briny ocean
Go where the stormy winds do blow.

O daughter, you may ease your own mind,
It's for your sweet sake that I say so;
If you cross the briny ocean
Without your fortune you must go.

O daughter, daughter, I'll confine you;
All in your private room alone;
And you shall live on bread and water,
Brought once a day and that at noon.

I do not want your bread and water,
Nor anything that you may have.
If I can't have my heart's desire,
Then single I go to my grave.

Note: Possible an adaptation by Sharp of an earlier collection.

Note Malcolm's submission; Text from Susie Clarke per Jack Barnard at Bridgwater, 6 April 1907.Cecil Sharp's Collection of English Folk Songs, ed. Maud Karpeles; vol.I no.78, p.329. OUP 1974.

-Richie

Subject: RE: Help: Age of 'East Virginia'?
From: Malcolm Douglas
Date: 25 Aug 02 - 12:32 PM

The text you quote is a drawing-room collation, and not a traditional version in its own right; Sharp commented "The words have not been altered, although I have made use of all the sets that I have collected." (One Hundred English Folksongs, Ditson, 1944)

The two final verses above came from Mrs. Lucy White (Hambridge, Somerst, 1905). I don't know where verses 5 and 6 are from (though in verse 6, line one, not is an accidental interpolation not given by Sharp); the rest, with the exception of the substitutions in the first verse of drowsy for pretty and O for And, is from Barnard, as is the tune.

Subject: RE: Help: Age of 'East Virginia'?
From: Dicho (Frank Staplin)
Date: 25 Aug 02 - 02:09 PM

Like other folksongs, the melodies may vary, only the meter remaining much the the same. Singers introduced changes to suit their voice or their preference and sometimes adopted the melody of another song altogether. I will email scans of the music of those that I have posted (if given), but it may not help with the relationships of those that have crossed to America.

Subject: RE: Help: Age of 'East Virginia'?
From: GUEST,Richie
Date: 25 Aug 02 - 06:24 PM

Sharp has the English version of Drowsy Sleeper, "Arise, Arise" in key of G major in mixolydian mode. He has the time 3/2 instead of 3/4 which I believe is inaccurate. He also has the measure lines wrong (where the held beats are off beat) but I'm not sure why. But then I'm one of those people that tries to make music fit when it doesn't always. At least I've gotten out of the habit of making songs end on the tonic! I'd have a hard time playing with many old-time musicians (mostly soloists) because they leave out beats of measures.

I will check the English source next week to see if Masato's quote was in fact correct, putting the date back to the seventeenth century England.

Since we are on the East Virginia topic, I was wondering if anyone knows how and when the Drowsy Sleeper-Silver Dagger branch became "Katy Dear"?

Subject: RE: Help: Age of 'East Virginia'?
From: Stewie
Date: 25 Aug 02 - 07:44 PM

Richie,

I have no idea of the answer to your 'Katy Dear' query, but the first recording, under the title 'Katie Dear', was by the Callahan Brothers in 1934. Joe and Bill, from North Carolina, were born in 1910 and 1912 respectively. Bill Malone ['Country Music USA' p110] and the unidentified writer of the notes to 'Callahan Brothers' CD [Old Homestead 4031] indicate that there was plenty of singing around the Callahan household and that they learned the folk component of their repertoire [before being swept away with Jimmy Rodgers music in the late 20s], songs like 'Katie Dear' and 'Banks of the Ohio, from their mother. This would probably bring the date back to the late 19th century at least.

--Stewie.

Subject: RE: Help: Age of 'East Virginia'?
From: Dicho (Frank Staplin)
Date: 25 Aug 02 - 07:59 PM

The gal came back to life and changed her name often- May, Molly, Nancy, Mary, Madam and nameless in Drowsy Sleeper variants in Randolph; Julia (Julie) and nameless in Silver Dagger; Mary in Cox' Silver Dagger.

A number of bluegrass singers used the Katy Dear variant. The earliest I have found is Tiny Dodson, 1938, Decca Country Series, but it could be a lot older. Also sung by Jerry Garcia, Ian and Sylvia and others.

Subject: RE: Help: Age of 'East Virginia'?
From: masato sakurai
Date: 25 Aug 02 - 09:00 PM

Tiny Dodson's "Katy Dear" was the third.

"Katie Dear" recordings from Country Music Sources by Meade, Spottswood & Meade (Southern Folklife Center, University of North Carolina, 2001, p. 9) are:

(1) Katie Dear (14524-2) - Callahan Brothers (vcl duet w.gtrs) - 01/03/1934. NYC. (2) Katie Dear (BS 018680-1) - Blue Sky Boys (vcl duet w/mdln & gtr) - 01/25/1938. Charlotte, N.C. (3) Katy Dear (64077-) - Tiny Dodson's Circle-B Boys (vcl w/vln & gtrs) - 06/07/1938.

~Masato

Subject: RE: Help: Age of 'East Virginia'?
From: GUEST,Richie
Date: 25 Aug 02 - 09:14 PM

Thanks all for the info about Katie/Katy Dear. It looks like it was just a name that stuck and became a distinct variant. This is the version my bluegrass group knows.

Now I'm moving on trying to figure out how the fiddle tune "Robinson County" was use for Uncle Dave's "Country Ham and Red Gravy" and what the connection is to "New Five Cents," "Yellow/Yeller Gal", "Ruffled Drawers," and "Finger Ring". But this isn't a topic for this thread.

I'll post some info on the source of "Arise Arise/Awake Awake/Drowsy Sleeper" in England in the next few days.

This has been an informative tread with lots of great lyrics!

-Richie

Subject: RE: Help: Age of 'East Virginia'?
From: Malcolm Douglas
Date: 25 Aug 02 - 09:35 PM

I don't understand staff notation well enough to have an informed opinion as to whether Sharp ought to have noted in 3/2 or 3/4. Since he actually heard at first hand the music he was recording, however, I'd be disinclined (and would suggest that others should be also) to second-guess him without first-hand knowledge.

Subject: Lyr Add: WHO'S THAT KNOCKIN' ON MY WINDOW
From: masato sakurai
Date: 25 Aug 02 - 10:05 PM

The Carter Family's "Who's That Knockin' On My Window" (recorded June 8, 1938; isssued May 1939) is a variant of "The Drowsey Sleeper." CLICK HERE for the recording from Honkingduck.

WHO'S THAT KNOCKIN' ON MY WINDOW

Who's that knockin' at my window,
Knocks so loud and won't come in?
'Tis your own true-hearted lover
Rise you up and let him in

Go 'way, go 'way, don't wake my mother
For love's a thing she can't endure
She's been the ruin of many a lover
She'll be the ruin of many more

I've come to whisper in your ear, love
Do you think it any harm?
I've come to wean you of your mother
Pray trust yourself in your darling's arms!

Go 'way go 'way, don't wake my father
For he is on his bed of rest
And on his breast he carries a weapon(*)
To kill the one that I love best

I wish I was some little sparrow
I'd circle like a turtle dove
I'd fly away to a lonely valley
And settle down in the land of love

(*): pronounced "wee-pon."

~Masato

Subject: RE: Help: Age of 'East Virginia'?
From: GUEST,Richie
Date: 25 Aug 02 - 11:48 PM

Malcom-

After looking at the score of Arise Arise (Piano & Voice Arrangement- Oliver Ditson Company) by Sharp again, I can see what he was up to. All the other versions I have notated by Sharp use the first three notes as pick-up notes (A-rise A-) with "rise" falling on the accented beat as it should. However, with this version there would be an extra beat. By making this 3/2 Sharp has balanced the verse and made it come out in a tidy 8 measure group.

As a professional musician and arranger of folk music, I can speak with some authority- there is no easy way to notate this particular melody without changing it- and I'm glad he didn't.

I arrange emphasizing the beat, even if it means having multiple meters. That's just the way I do it. Sharp found a different way- so be it.

Masata-

That's a great find and lyric addition by the Carters!

-Richie

Subject: Lyr Add: WHO IS THAT AT MY FALSE WINDOW?
From: Dicho (Frank Staplin)
Date: 26 Aug 02 - 12:37 AM

And many many more!

Lyr. Add: WHO IS THAT AT MY FALSE WINDOW?

O, who is that at my fale window
A making of such pitiful moan
O, who can it be but lovely Willie
Jest escaping from a storm.

O, Mary dear, go ask your mother
If my wedding bride that you shall be
If she says no, return and tell me
And I no more, will trouble thee.

O, Willie dear, go court some other
And whisper love all in her ear
My mother says, she cain't do without me
My mother says, she needs me here.

O, Mary dear, go ask your father
If my wedding bride that you shall be
If he says no, return an' tell me
An' I no more will trouble thee.

O, Willie dear, I dare not ask him
He sleeps, he sleeps and takes his rest
In his right hand he holds a weepon
For t' kill the man that I love best.

Then Willie picked up the silver dagger
An' he pierced it through his own white breast
A-dieu, a-dieu, a-dieu kind Mary
Your love Willie, has gone to rest.

Then, Mary picked up the silver dagger
An' she pierced it through her own white breast
A-dieu, a-dieu, a-dieu kind parents
My love Willie and I, have gone to rest.

When their parents came to know this
They strifed both night and day
Says, see what a cruel deed we've done
We've robbed the life of two precious jewels
Whose body now lies mouldering in their tomb.

Max Hunter Coll., Fred High of High, Arkansas, 1953. False Window With Real Audio. Similar to the Canadian Who Is At My Window Weeping (in Contemplator).

Subject: RE: Help: Age of 'East Virginia'?
From: Dicho (Frank Staplin)
Date: 26 Aug 02 - 12:39 AM

Please go to PART TWO. Thread too long, will be troublesome to some.

Subject: RE: Help: Age of 'East Virginia'?
From: Dicho (Frank Staplin)
Date: 26 Aug 02 - 01:07 AM

PartTwo, thread 50807: East Virginia

Subject: RE: Help: Age of 'East Virginia'?
From: GUEST,Q
Date: 08 Apr 03 - 02:27 PM

Related threads: 766, 1817, 2141, 7379, 14739, 17334, 22105, (35233), 50807, 52328, 56877. Any more??

Subject: RE: Help: Age of 'East Virginia'?
From: GUEST,Q
Date: 08 Apr 03 - 09:21 PM

More murder and knives: threads 37286, 28033, 4273; Banks of the Ohio, etc.

Subject: RE: Help: Age of 'East Virginia'?
From: nutty
Date: 09 Apr 03 - 03:57 AM

I'm not sure how relevant this is to the previous discussion, but the Bodleian Library has this version of Drowsy Sleeper dated circa 1817.

DROWSY SLEEPER

Subject: RE: Help: Age of 'East Virginia'?
From: kendall
Date: 09 Apr 03 - 08:24 AM

Iv'e always thought it was ..white linen, not lillies. Makes more sense to me. and her hair was a bright SUN color..

Subject: RE: Help: Age of 'East Virginia'?
From: GUEST,Q
Date: 09 Apr 03 - 11:47 AM

The ca. 1817 version from the Bodleian is already posted in this thread, Nutty. See Dicho, 22Aug 02.

Subject: RE: Help: Age of 'East Virginia'?
From: GUEST,Q
Date: 09 Apr 03 - 02:46 PM

The "white lilies" seem to appear in some of the "Old Virginny" and some Appalachian collected versions, and continued in the Stanley-Carter songs. White linen, as Kendall says, makes more sense.

Subject: Lyr Add: AWAKE YOU DROWSY SLEEPER
From: kytrad (Jean Ritchie)
Date: 09 Apr 03 - 05:56 PM

Just read this thread. Thanks everyone for not coming down harder on my head about the copyright! I know nothing of Oannes Music. Their note at the end seems to refer to a record album which had given no credit to me. Nor should they have, as the first verse (only one given) was NOT my family version.

What I had copyrighted (in the fifties and sixties, many trad songs were being copyrighted as having been WRITTEN by the singer on the album) were the Ritchie Family versions, with any changes, arrangements, uniqueness of melodies, etc. As I have often explained on Mudcat threads, my reason for copyrighting the Ritchie Family songs was as a protection/clarification of song sources, for scholars and researchers and just folks wanting to know where songs came from. Anyone recording a song with a Ritchie copyright who applies for a free license may have it, providing they give the requested credit line. I believe this source clarification is important.

"Old Virginny," and "Awake You Drowsy Sleeper," we had as two separate songs- no verses overlapped, and they had differing melodies.
"Old Virginny," I learned from my father, Balis W. Ritchie,around 1930,and he had known it from when he was young,in the 1870s. My first recording of it was in 1949 for the NY Historical Association, on a 78 rpm, with "Swing and Turn, Jubillee," on the other side. In 1952 it was included on my first (and Elektra's first)lp,a 10," for Elektra Records, with 13 other songs. In 1955 it became part of my story in SINGING FAMILY OF THE CUMBERLANDS,(Oxford U. Press- now it's with U.KY Press). My dad's melody I haven't heard anywhere else as a source. Joan Baez recorded the Ritchie version, although she did not know that when she recorded it for Vanguard. She told me she'd learned it from a friend who learned it from his mother!

"Awake You Drowsy Sleeper" I have recently discussed in another thread (about Ian & Sylvia).,The gist of it is that the tune on this one is mine (attempting to extract Uncle Jason's tune from his wavering voice and the differing turns and decorations in every verse). The family liked my tune and so that's how we've been singing it ever since.Ian and Sylvia learned it from me at Newport, I think. Here are our verses:

Awake, awake, you drowsy sleeper,
How can you lay and slumber so?
When your truelove is a-goin to leave you
Never to return any more?

How can you slumber on your pillow
When your truelove must stand and wait?
And must I go and wear the willow,
In sorrow mourning for your sake?

O Mollie dear, go ask your mother
If you my bride, my bride can be-
And then return and quickly tell me,
And I no more will trouble thee.

O no I cannot ask my mother,
Such stories of love she will not hear;
Go on your way and court some other-
I cannot trouble mother dear.

O Mollie dear, go ask your father
If you my bride, my bride can be-
And then return and quickly tell me,
And I no more will trouble thee.

O no I cannot ask my father,
He-s a-lying on his bed of rest,
And in his hands a silver dagger
To pierce the one that I love the best.

I wish I was in some lonely valley,
Where no one could ever hear-
My food would be of grief and sorrow,
My drink would be the briny tear.

Down in yon valley there grows a green yarrow,
I wish that yarrow was shot through my breast-
It would end my grief, it would end my sorrow,
And set my troubled mind at rest.

I'm sorry this is so long...but that's the way of it- songs grow one out of another. "Greenback Dollar" and the others I think came later, with the addition of instruments and rhythm, and verses got borrowed, recycled into newer ways of singing the songs(old folks always said that the A.P. Carter did a lot of rewriting. "Modern" music!

Subject: RE: Origins: Age of 'East Virginia'?
From: GUEST
Date: 27 Nov 24 - 03:23 AM

Thanks folks for what you said on East Virginia Blues. While saying all these words the tune the Carter Family yous is related to different songs that more folks know. The Greenback dollar that Hoyt Axton recorded in 1962 is not the same song.