any info on the Critics Group?

Subject: any info on the Critics Group?
From: red max
Date: 11 Jul 06 - 10:17 AM

Not wishing to sidetrack the ongoing Ewan MacColl thread, I was curious to know if people here had any recollections of the Critics Group. There doesn't seem to be much info out there, yet I'm sure they were/are reasonably well known in folk circles.

I know about the basic premise of the group, but it intrigues me that a group that recorded half a dozen albums appears to have faded into obscurity. Even in Frankie Armstrong's autobiography they only get a cursory mention. Did they actually tour as a "band", or were their performances limited to the Festival of Fools?

I'm particularly interested in their pair of London-themed albums, "A merry progress to London" and "Sweet Thames flow softly". Jim O'Connor's sleeve notes didn't allude to individual songs, so I've no idea where songs like "The parson grocer" and "The lawyer's lament for Charing X" came from.

I'd say the Critics LPs were of a generally high standard, and it's sad that none of their output has ever made it to CD. Does this reflect a lukewarm attitude to this group? Any thoughts welcome!

Subject: RE: any info on the Critics Group?
From: Leadfingers
Date: 11 Jul 06 - 10:31 AM

Red Max - As far as I know , NONE of the Critics were Full time folkies , all having 'proper' day jobs . That MAY have some bearing on the lack of release onto C D .

Subject: RE: any info on the Critics Group?
From: MoorleyMan
Date: 11 Jul 06 - 11:00 AM

Red Max - you'll be interested to know that The Sweet Thames Flow Softly LP has just been released on CD, on the Dutton Vocalion label - website www.duttonvocalion.com has the details.

Subject: RE: any info on the Critics Group?
From: John MacKenzie
Date: 11 Jul 06 - 11:48 AM

I remember Dick Snell from the days of The Cellar club at CSH in the 60s, when Jack and Margaret King were the residents.
G.

Subject: RE: any info on the Critics Group?
From: The Sandman
Date: 11 Jul 06 - 01:04 PM

Sandra Kerr and John faulkner,Sandra Kerr is still very active and living in Northumberland England. John Faulkner until recently, 10 years was working with Dolores Keane and living in Ireland.

Subject: RE: any info on the Critics Group?
From: The Borchester Echo
Date: 11 Jul 06 - 01:16 PM

Sandra Kerr, an English concertina heroine, still tours solo, with Bagpuss and with her daughter Nancy Kerr and James Fagan as Scalene and teaches on the Newcastle trad music degree course and does workshops everywhere. Terry Yarnell issued a new solo CD a couple of years ago and Frankie Armstrong continues to gig and do voice workshops.

Subject: RE: any info on the Critics Group?
From: Dave Sutherland
Date: 11 Jul 06 - 02:15 PM

I would be very interested to know if their "Waterloo-Peterloo" album ever made it to CD as I could never get hold of it on vinyl. Sandra and John played Newcastle Festival for our club in 1971 and we managed to get Frankie Armstrong and Brian Pearson up to the North East a couple of years earlier.

Subject: RE: any info on the Critics Group?
From: Herga Kitty
Date: 11 Jul 06 - 02:21 PM

John Faulkner was in the Bagpuss show at Chippenham festival a few weeks ago, with Sandra, Nancy and James.

Kittyu

Subject: RE: any info on the Critics Group?
From: GUEST
Date: 11 Jul 06 - 05:27 PM

The Critics Group was never a band, but individuals in a song workshop run by MacColl.
The Festival of Fools was the only venture they ever did all together (apart from political shows at the time of the Viet-Nam war etc).
Material for the London albums was researched by Group members, mainly from published broadside collections like Roxborough, Bagford, Ashton etc. Tunes were gathered from various sources - Simpson's The British Broadside and it's Music being a main one.
Waterloo-Peterloo never made it to CD (yet) but there were rumours that Topic were going to re-release some of the albums.
Scotsman Bob Blair issued a CD some years ago on the Living Tradition 'Tradition Bearers' series and works regularly with 'Stramash' in Glasgow.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: any info on the Critics Group?
From: GUEST,Alison
Date: 11 Jul 06 - 05:51 PM

Phil Colclough, from Stoke on Trent, author of 'A song for Ireland' was a member, as was Jack Warshaw, author of 'No time for love', also recorded by Chris Moore as well as by Roy Bailey. Fiddler Bobby Campbell died a few years back.

The Union Tavern, where the Singers Club met when the Critics Group was in its heyday, now looks very posh, with lots of baskets of flowers on the outside.

Subject: RE: any info on the Critics Group?
From: rich-joy
Date: 11 Jul 06 - 08:07 PM

Whilst not lucky enough to own any LPs of The Critics, I found an old tape for ARGO's DA 86 (1968) recording "Waterloo-Peterloo : English Folksongs and Broadsides, 1780-1830" and that featured :
Frankie Armstrong, John Faulkner, Brian Pearson, Denis Turner, Terry Yarnell and accompanied by John Faulkner, Sandra Kerr, Jim O'Connor, Peggy Seeger.

Tracks are :
With Henry Hunt We'll Go
Lancashire Lads
The Labouring Man
John O'Grinfells
Cast Iron Song
Van Dieman's Land
Death of Parker
Drink Old England Dry
Battle of Waterloo
Boney was a Warrier
The Victory
The Dudley Boys
Keepers & Poachers
I Should Like to be a Policeman
The Way to Live
Handloom Weaver's Lament

Perhaps those who have the LPs could gradually list performers and tracks and dates, in this thread - and also CG reminiscences + "where are they now" stuff - I know I, for one ,would be interested!


Cheers! R-J

Subject: RE: any info on the Critics Group?
From: GUEST,Helpful Soul
Date: 11 Jul 06 - 08:16 PM

Someone has already mentioned Bob Blair and from my experience he is probably the most knowledgable (regarding what's on record etc) and contactable of the group.

He is invariably at Whitby Folk Week and is in 2006 running a series of presentations there which would appear to expand on this particular subject. (I picked up a programme at the weekend)

Subject: RE: any info on the Critics Group?
From: GUEST
Date: 12 Jul 06 - 04:43 AM

Forgot to mention that Terry Yarnell, probably one of the most skilled singers of the group, has also done an album for The Living Tradition 'The Tradition Bearers' series.
I have all the albums of The Critics Group and will post a list for anybody interested - when I can get round to it.
In my opinion, the two sea albums were the best they did. There was also some nice material on the Argo Poetry and Song series (14 LPs)
If anybody sees Bob Blair at Whitby talk to him about the group and whisper 'The Song Carriers' in his ear - you might be surprised at th result!
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: any info on the Critics Group?
From: redsnapper
Date: 12 Jul 06 - 04:58 AM

I believe John Faulkner plays with the Belgian group Orion now (or at least did so until recently).

RS

Subject: RE: any info on the Critics Group?
From: red max
Date: 12 Jul 06 - 05:30 AM

Waterloo-Peterloo is an enjoyable record, possibly because its theme is less rigid than the others. I agree about Terry Yarnell's talent, he sings "I should like to be a policeman" with such ease, it's a pleasure to hear.

I can't say I'm as fond of the sea albums. Up to that point MacColl had always been a coordinator rather than a performer, and his singing seems to overshadow the contribution of the others. He had such a powerful presence that he was bound to dominate any album he sang on. Plus some of the manly grunts and yelps on the shanties do seem a little absurd from a bunch of London landlubbers!

The Critics Group also appeared on an interesteing Argo LP called "The world of the countryside". They sang "We gets up in the morn", and Frankie Armstrong gives a cheeky rendition of "Gossip Joan", quite unlike the strident delivery she's better know for.

Subject: RE: any info on the Critics Group?
From: Kevin Sheils
Date: 12 Jul 06 - 05:54 AM

Good news that this is coming out on CD my old Critic's vinyl is fairly knackered.

I thought that when Topic reissued on CD some old Decca/Argo stuff such as Folk Roots New Routes and the Radio Ballads that more would be forthcoming but perhaps the sales and potential sales didn't warrant it.

Hope this one sells well as I see from the Dutton Vocalion web site that they have also issued old Decca Barbara Dickson stuff so they may have some options on Decca/Argo stuff

I'd like to see any of the Critic's LP's and the Long Harvest issued on CD.

Just noticed that the BD CD is both of her Decca Albums on one CD same price as the Sweet Thames, so I wonder if the companion Merry Progress is also on it as a 2 on 1. No track listing there or on Amazon to confirm.

Whatever I'll certainly get it. The Critic's that is not the BD.

Subject: RE: any info on the Critics Group?
From: The Borchester Echo
Date: 12 Jul 06 - 06:15 AM

The Union Tavern

Yes, not much chance nowadays of the lock-ins in which Luke Kelly played a prominent part. New Merlin's Cave where the 'Festival Of Fools' was staged is no more. Jack Walshaw became a BBC producer. Some of the former Critics (including Sandra Kerr and John Faulkner) took themselves off to the Knave Of Clubs, Bethnal Green, in the mid-70s where trad/political song and agitprop theatre held sway. I wonder if any of this was recorded? It hasn't (as far as I know) been issued commercially). Gordon McCulloch, another ex-Critic, was involved in the Knave and he is still performing back home in Glasgow though his musical partner Bobby Campbell, as has been mentioned, died about 10 years ago.

Subject: RE: any info on the Critics Group?
From: Mick Pearce (MCP)
Date: 12 Jul 06 - 07:09 AM

The Waterloo-Peterloo personnel were: Frankie Armstrong, John Faulkner, Brian Pearson, Denis Turner and Terry Yarnell accompanied by John Faulkner (mandolin, English concertina), Sandra Kerr (guitar, dulcimer, whistle, spoons), Jim O'Connor (drums, percussion), Peggy Seeger (guitar).

The performers were:

Side 1:
With Henry Hunt We'll Go - DT & chorus
Lancashire Lads - FA (SK gtr, JF mand)
The Labouring Man - BP (JF conc, SK dulc)
John O'Grinfell's - DT
Cast Iron Song - TY/DT (JF mand, SK dulc, PS gtr)
Van Dieman's Land - JF (SK gtr)
Death of Parker - FA
Drink Old England Dry - TY & chorus

Side 2:
Battle of Waterloo - JF/TY (SK whistle, JO drum)
Boney Was a Warrior - BP & men's chorus
The Victory - FA (SK dulc)
The Dudley Boys - DT & chorus
Keepers and Poachers - BP (JF conc, SK gtr)
I Should Like to be a Policeman - TY & men's chorus (SK spoons, JO percussion)
The Way to Live - FK/BP (SK gtr, JF gtr)
Handloom Weaver's Lament - DT

The record also has an insert with the words and notes (it also has some spelling differences. Van Deiman's Land in the title on cover and insert. Jone O' Grinfilt in insert title.

Mick

Subject: RE: any info on the Critics Group?
From: MoorleyMan
Date: 12 Jul 06 - 07:15 AM

Kevin - just for info, the Barbara Dickson CD brings together the 2 LPs Do Right Woman and From The Beggar's Mantle. As you say, it looks like DV may have options on other Decca/Argo stuff, I'll try to find out more.

Subject: RE: any info on the Critics Group?
From: The Sandman
Date: 13 Jul 06 - 06:00 AM

wasnt there also a banjo player Donal Macguire involved as well.

Subject: RE: any info on the Critics Group?
From: Folkiedave
Date: 13 Jul 06 - 06:31 AM

Terry Yarnell?

And one of the landlords involved, Tony Rose, (NOT the singer) is living in South Shields.

He had a complete set of Festival of Fools scripts which I now believe are in the possession of Peggy.

Subject: RE: any info on the Critics Group?
From: The Borchester Echo
Date: 13 Jul 06 - 06:38 AM

Dónal Maguire was indeed involved and later in The Knave before forming a duo with Liam Webster. These days, he tours as a solo performer.

Subject: RE: any info on the Critics Group?
From: GUEST
Date: 13 Jul 06 - 08:15 AM

Donal Maguire was a resident at The Singers Club for a time, not a member of the group, though he was a member of London Singers Workshop, an offshoot.
Tony was a supporter of The Singers Club.
Jim Carroll.

Subject: RE: any info on the Critics Group?
From: red max
Date: 13 Jul 06 - 08:39 AM

Kevin said "Just noticed that the BD CD is both of her Decca Albums on one CD same price as the Sweet Thames, so I wonder if the companion Merry Progress is also on it as a 2 on 1"

I'd say it was unlikely. The Critics LPs usually clocked it at just under the hour mark, so it'd have to be a double CD.

Just think if all those folk LPs on Argo got CD releases! You'd have Barry Skinner, Dave Goulder, the Yetties and many more. Hard to imagine the Long Harvest getting a re-release, those seemed to have more scholarly value than entertainment

Subject: RE: any info on the Critics Group?
From: dick greenhaus
Date: 13 Jul 06 - 10:52 AM

One of my major frustrations as a CD dealer is that there are a large number of marvelous re-releases produced in Japan that I never hear about until they're out of print. There was one of the Critic's Circle; there was one of Hedy West.

These are, as far as I can tell, produced in very short runs for the Japanese audience. If anyone knows how I can find out what's being offered, I'd be most grateful.

Subject: RE: any info on the Critics Group?
From: Kevin Sheils
Date: 13 Jul 06 - 11:50 AM

Yes red max you're right the length of the Critic's LPs would preclude the 2 on 1 let's hope the Merry Progress comes along as well, although both my vinyls are reasonably good condition anyway.

And DG the only Japanese release that comes immediately to mind is a pressing of Peta Webb's Topic LP. We used to have a copy in the Folk Club raffle prize box but I think it's gone long ago.

Might still be available but I have no info on the label etc.

Subject: RE: any info on the Critics Group?
From: GUEST,The Big Iota
Date: 16 Jul 06 - 01:30 PM

Why waste time on The Critics Group? Mostly no-hoper singers, especially Countess Richard, ridiculous ideological presumptions and, above all, a terrifying irrelevance to what was happening elsewhere in the world!

Terry

Subject: RE: any info on the Critics Group?
From: John MacKenzie
Date: 16 Jul 06 - 02:16 PM

Red Max, Dave Goulder is still available direct from the man himself, at a reasonable price too.
Dave Goulder's Web site

Giok

Subject: RE: any info on the Critics Group?
From: The Borchester Echo
Date: 16 Jul 06 - 03:12 PM

So which Terry are you, Guest, Big Iota and how do you know me? Surely your memory doesn't stretch to over 35 years ago when I spent a maximum of 6 weeks in the Critics? I may not have been much good, indeed I wasn't, but must have shown some promise for Ewan to invite me along. I didn't actually go for the 'ideological presumptions' (whatever they are) but for the voice and stagecraft workshops. As for relevance to world affairs, you need to take a look at the Festival Of Fools scripts. Should change your mind.

Subject: RE: any info on the Critics Group?
From: Dave Hanson
Date: 17 Jul 06 - 01:19 AM

' Terrifying irrelevance ' ? surely an oxymoron.

eric

Subject: RE: any info on the Critics Group?
From: GUEST
Date: 17 Jul 06 - 02:37 AM

"terrifying irrelevance to what was happening elsewhere in the world"!
Odd - The Critics Group and MacColl were usually lambasted for the opposite - ie introducing the relevancies of world politics into their performances. Ah well - you can't win 'em all!
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: any info on the Critics Group?
From: John MacKenzie
Date: 17 Jul 06 - 04:20 AM

Not an easy line to follow, a concern for world events, a knowledge of where they will lead based on previous experience, and an adherence to traditional songs and music.
Today's happenings have echoes in the past, and despite the oft repeated old saw about learning from history, the fact is we don't.
Putting traditional songs into a modern tale, along with contemporary songs written by the people involved to flesh out the story, is a thing many folkie type people have tried with varying degrees of success.
Trouble is that it always comes with 'a message', which is whatever axe the writers have to grind. People like Roy Bailey and Tony Benn do an evenings entertainment, but it's all very left wing, so attracts criticism from the right.
What Im saying about these 'Musical Plays' that people put on is that it's very interesting, but is it folk. Is folk music a folk memory, an entertainment, or a propaganda tool?
Giok

Subject: RE: any info on the Critics Group?
From: GUEST
Date: 17 Jul 06 - 01:28 PM

Carroll knows nowt!

The Critics Group wasn't just a 'terrible irrelevance' (who ever thinks that's an oxymoron should look up 'terrible' in a dictionary), but, worst of all, an appalling diversion from what was actually happening around their MacColl-cushioned minds.

If all its members had ignored Ewan's ideological exercises and gone out into the real world, then maybe Britain might have become a better place.

No, Countess Richard, I'm a Terry you don't know, but one who's seen you embarrass yourself on many an occasion - and you still can't sing!

T

Subject: RE: any info on the Critics Group?
From: The Borchester Echo
Date: 17 Jul 06 - 01:48 PM

I'm a Terry you don't know

Oh, good. So again, how exactly do you claim to know ME? As it goes you're quite right about my inability to sing right now, but you can't possibly be aware of the (hopefully temporary) reason. As for asserting that Jim Carroll knows nowt, you clearly don't know him either, or anything about what the Critics did. And I say that despite my very brief and tenuous connection. All in all, since you decline to identify yourself, I'd really prefer it if you just pissed off.

Subject: RE: any info on the Critics Group?
From: GUEST,Shimrod
Date: 17 Jul 06 - 01:50 PM

Yes, the Critics Group did make some interesting themed albums with lots of fascinating material that you couldn't hear elsewhere at the time.

Unfortunately, I recall that these albums almost immediately fell victim to the vicious anti-MacColl prejudice which this thread proves is still active. A lot of third-raters and thwarted rock-stars (who were often using the folk world as a stepping-stone for their own tawdry careers) accused the Critics of being 'MacColl clones' (as opposed to being 'Dylan clones', or whatever, I suppose) and that was that. It's a very sad world!

Subject: RE: any info on the Critics Group?
From: GUEST,The Big Iota
Date: 17 Jul 06 - 02:28 PM

Ah, CR, I've unfortunately heard you 'sing' more than once and my ears are still shredded by the first occasion.

As you don't identify yourself, preferring to hide behind an alias extracted from some obscure CB, why on earth should I let my monicker slip?

And, yes, unfortunately, I do know Jim and his attempts at singing - please remind him about the night in Crewe - and he still knows nowt about anything.

As for Shimrod's message, there really isn't enough anti-MacColl prejudice at present! If anyone disagrees, then please provide a summation of what the war deserter Miller actually achieved!

Terry

Subject: RE: any info on the Critics Group?
From: The Borchester Echo
Date: 17 Jul 06 - 02:34 PM

my ears are still shredded

Wow, I'll stick that on my website (if I ever make one).

Subject: RE: any info on the Critics Group?
From: The Borchester Echo
Date: 17 Jul 06 - 02:52 PM

. . . oh, and Child #68 is hardly obscure. It goes under the titles Earl Richard, Young Hunting/Redin/Reidin, Lord William etc etc. However the character 'Countess Richard' actually appears in none of them. That's the point. The texts aren't hard to find. Study them.

Diane

Subject: RE: any info on the Critics Group?
From: GUEST
Date: 17 Jul 06 - 03:05 PM

I wonder why people who have no argument always end up substituting invective.
My singing - I may have been guilty in a former life, but not for a long-long time - don't consider myself a singer.
Crewe!!! Sorry, never been there, let alone sung there. I do believe my train from Liverpool passed through on the way to London though.
Political songs - the tradition is full of them. One of the earliest published collection of songs (Wright) was political (Latin and English). Both Ireland and Scotland have a large repertoire of political songs - Zimmermann - Hogg et al.
And yet again we fall back on the old faithful war record, name change, hand over ear level of discussion - ah well, it takes all sorts.
If Malcolm Douglas is still around (apropo of an earlier discussion on MacColl), I came across this recently from Bob Thomson.

Hi Jim,
Sheath and Knife, as sung by Ewan, is his redaction of a late sixteenth century text that I passed to him. It was first published by the late Helena Shire who was a close friend of mine at Cambridge and taught medieval literature & balladry at Kings' College. She found the text quite fortuitously in a MS in Panmure House - the ancestral home of Lord Dalhousie I believe. The Ms with many songs & ballads is now in the National Library of Scotland - I'm not sure how available it is though. Helena published two pamphlets from the MS - one contains Sheath & Knife and the other an early text of Little Musgrave. The pamphlets, part of a projected series, are both called The Ninth of May. I seem to remember that shortly before he died, David Buchan published a collection of Scottish texts, both tales & song/ballads. Included is the full Panmure House MS text of Sheath & Knife. I'll see if I can locate it in the library & let you have details later.

Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: any info on the Critics Group?
From: GUEST,Shimrod
Date: 18 Jul 06 - 01:41 PM

"As for Shimrod's message, there really isn't enough anti-MacColl prejudice at present! If anyone disagrees, then please provide a summation of what the war deserter Miller actually achieved!"

Silly question really (from a silly and embittered, failed rock star I would guess). MacColl's record of achievements is too well known for me to list them here (listen to any of his many recordings or look at the songs in the 'Ewan MacColl Songbook' for starters).

Speaking personally he provided me with some of the most exciting musical experiences of my life (I got into his singing in my late teens and long before I knew that there was any controversy surrounding his name) and he introduced me to the ballad repertoire through live performances and the 'Long Harvest' set of LPs that he did with Peggy Seeger. I was also privileged, in my early twenties, to attend one of the weekend singers' workshop sessions, that he used to run, also with Peggy Seeger, and he convinced me there that I too could sing. Although I may not be the best singer in the world I consider that Ewan provided me with the confidence to give it a go. My singing provides me with an important artistic outlet in my life and through my participation in the world of traditional song I have made many good friends and have met many fine people.

I don't believe that there is any question at all about Ewan's public achievements but he was also an inspiration to people like me and considerably enriched our lives - now that's a real achievement!!

Subject: RE: any info on the Critics Group?
From: GUEST
Date: 18 Jul 06 - 01:47 PM

Ah, now, 'invective', what's that? I reckon I use it on my tyres.

The creature called 'Countess Richard', now signing her/himself as 'Diane' splutters the following pile of tripe:

'oh, and Child #68 is hardly obscure. It goes under the titles Earl Richard, Young Hunting/Redin/Reidin, Lord William etc etc. However the character 'Countess Richard' actually appears in none of them. That's the point. The texts aren't hard to find. Study them.'

If that's some kind of point then my name is Erastus Z. Beetlemoth.

JC remains utterly wide of the mark (and he did sing in Crewe - sorry that I can't remember the exact occasion, but my dog still whines whenever I play a MacCrap recording).

I'm still waiting for someone to tell me what Ewan MacCrap actually achieved!

T

Subject: RE: any info on the Critics Group?
From: The Borchester Echo
Date: 18 Jul 06 - 02:22 PM

Greetings Erastus

'Countess Richard', now signing her/himself as 'Diane

Don't you know? Thought you said you'd heard me more than once? Can't do lower than low F. Should be a clue.

Subject: RE: any info on the Critics Group?
From: George Papavgeris
Date: 18 Jul 06 - 02:29 PM

You might have to wait forever, Erastus, as it all depends on one's viewpoint - how do you measure success and achievement. You made it clear that seeing through your glasses no such achievement by McColl is discernible. So be it, we can all live with that, and I see no reason why anyone should even attempt to change your mind.

By my measure, if we can pass through life and affect positively one person alone, that already is a great achievement. McColl's work has done that for me - it's a long and convoluted story, but it ends up with my situation today - to whom I am married and why, why I live in the UK, my current occupation and to a large extent why I hold certain beliefs. Not as evangelistic as it might sound, but there it is.

By my book his passage through this world has been worthwhile. I hope that others can say the same about you, me etc.

Subject: RE: any info on the Critics Group?
From: MoorleyMan
Date: 18 Jul 06 - 06:14 PM

Thanks George, for putting things into sensible perspective as always. Sure, like every human being, MacColl will have had faults, but he will have influenced and inspired many in a positive way. That's no matter for debate, so please let us "cease all quarreling and back-biting" and return to the point of the thread.

I will say before I sign off, that the various members of the Critics Group (of whatever incarnation/vintage/era) whom I have encountered over the years have been without exception unfailingly supportive and yes, a direct inspiration to me personally. My thanks to one and all of them.
M

Subject: RE: any info on the Critics Group?
From: Effsee
Date: 18 Jul 06 - 10:18 PM

Nameless Guest..."I'm still waiting for someone to tell me what Ewan MacCrap actually achieved!"...
Why should we waste our time?
You are obviously beyond the pale.
As they say where I live....
"you can't educate pork"

Subject: RE: any info on the Critics Group?
From: Mary Humphreys
Date: 19 Jul 06 - 03:58 AM

Hi Jim,
I posted the Panmure House Sheath and Knife lyric in this linked thread on Feb 16th this year.
Sheath and knife Panmure lyric
Malcolm jogged my memory that I had promised to post it to the group.
I think you should take up singing again. I always liked your Manchester Molecatcher, which you wrote out for me too many years ago to remember.
And if it hadn't been for your influence, along with Terry Whelan and Barry Thomson in the Manchester Critics Group, I would never have burrowed into folk songs languishing in libraries with a misson to to resurrect them.
Mary Humphreys

Subject: RE: any info on the Critics Group?
From: GUEST
Date: 19 Jul 06 - 04:13 AM

Hi Mary
Nice to hear from you again - hear you are doing good things.
Barry Taylor, by the way - he's living a few miles down the coast from here and we're enjoying wall-to-wall music four or five nights a week - not much singing unfortunaely - all the giants in the area have died.
Regarding our 'porky' friend; I think we should go easy on him; he obviously has his own problems - seems to be connected with Crewe somehow. He reminds me of somebody I once knew who wrote the mother of all pot-boilers and couldn't find a publisher. He would rant and rave a bit, then skulk off to another thread and have a hissy fit when nobody took him seriously.
Might be worth asking if he has done anything of worth recently.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: any info on the Critics Group?
From: GUEST,Fred McCormick
Date: 19 Jul 06 - 05:00 AM

>I'm still waiting for someone to tell me what Ewan MacCrap actually achieved!<

Terry,

I don't know what your gripe against MacColl is, but the next time you're in Oxford, you might want to call in at Ruskin College library. At the back of the library there is a room. In that room there are two enormous boxes of LP records. They represent the collective recorded output of Ewan MacColl and Peggy Seeger.

Take a root through that box. Don't for the moment trouble yourself with the other ballad anthologies - Blood and Roses, The Long Harvest, the three LP Folkways ballad set, etc. Instead, dig out a set of nine LPs which Ewan MacColl and A. L. Lloyd recorded for Riverside Records, New York. Eight of them are called the English and Scottish Popular Ballads, and the ninth is an appendix called Great British Ballads Not In Child.

The set contains approximately 80 ballads, around 2/3 of which are by Ewan MacColl. Note the date of publication; 1956. That was before MacColl became a professional folk singer. That was in the days when most of his time was still being taken up as a working actor and playwright and singing was not very much more than a sideline. Perhaps you wouldn't regard the amassing of such a large repertoire under such conditions as much of an achievement but I certainly do. It is far bigger than any other ballad singer I ever came across, and I would back many of the versions which MacColl sang against most of the others we know about. What's more, I would argue that he was the greatest ballad singer who ever recorded.

While you're in that room, and if you haven't already heard them, you might want to play some of the radio ballads which have been deposited there. They weren't MacColl's sole creation of course, but they were a ground breaking conception and it is hard not to think of them as works of genius.

Take a look around that room. Wade through the piles of correspondence relating to the Singers Club, the Critics Group, The Festival of Fools, the Songcarriers and all the other projects with which MacColl engaged himself in a long and fruitful life. While you're at it, note the safety lamp which was donated to him by the National Union of Miners, and his honorary graduation gown from Exeter university. There's also a gold disc in there for sales of The First Time Ever, but we don't need to dwell too long on that.

When you've done with all these artefacts, stand back and look at the floor to ceiling stack of reel to reel tape recordings. Many of them are copies of other people's work which MacColl borrowed for various projects. But even when these are discounted that still leaves a formidable body of field recordings made by Ewan MacColl and Peggy Seeger. The singers they recorded include Joe Heaney, Harry Cox, George Dunn, the Stewarts of Blair and many other Scots travellers, the Elliots of Birtley and a large number of English travellers including Caroline Hughes.

The paper inventory of what's in that room runs to 34 single sided pages. Before you leave, take a look through the book of MacColl's self composed songs. It's pretty big.

I don't expect you to like MacColl's singing or to rate his compositions or to attach any artistic significance to the radio ballads. They are matters of personal taste. Equally, I am not an apologist for MacColl and I refuse point blank to join in any whitewashing exercises or to claim that his work was devoid of faults.

But to claim that the man never achieved anything is pretty damned pathetic.

Subject: RE: any info on the Critics Group?
From: GUEST,Fred McCormick.
Date: 19 Jul 06 - 05:05 AM

Jim,

I'm not sure whether you are talking about me or Geoff Wallis. However, you are the one who insisted on calling a truce on this site and this is the second time you have gone back on your word. If you expect others to ebserve that truce please do likewise.


Hi Mary
Nice to hear from you again - hear you are doing good things.
Barry Taylor, by the way - he's living a few miles down the coast from here and we're enjoying wall-to-wall music four or five nights a week - not much singing unfortunaely - all the giants in the area have died.
Regarding our 'porky' friend; I think we should go easy on him; he obviously has his own problems - seems to be connected with Crewe somehow. He reminds me of somebody I once knew who wrote the mother of all pot-boilers and couldn't find a publisher. He would rant and rave a bit, then skulk off to another thread and have a hissy fit when nobody took him seriously.
Might be worth asking if he has done anything of worth recently.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: any info on the Critics Group?
From: GUEST,The Big Iota
Date: 19 Jul 06 - 02:07 PM

McCrap's still McCrap as far as I'm concerned.

Good to see Jim and Mary getting so lovey-dovey. Does Pat know, Jim, or have you been allowed off your leash for the evening? And it didn't matter where I heard you sing (if not Crewe, probably Stafford) - you were still rubbish. And so is Mary Humphreys (aka 'Countess Richard' and 'Diane') - worst singer I've ever heard in my life! And I still reckon that McCrap learnt nothing, taught us nothing and passed on nothing.

Who's Fred and why's he tried to muscle into this charmingly infantile debate?

Terry (from Alsager, as you've asked)