Origins: Bantry Girl's Lament

Subject: RE: Origins: Bantry Girls lament
From: MartinRyan
Date: 10 Jan 06 - 05:12 PM

"bán" also means "field". "óg" in this case is a simple diminutive, according to Dinneen's dictionary.

Regards

Subject: RE: Origins: Bantry Girls lament
From: GUEST,Guest, Big Tim
Date: 11 Jan 06 - 11:13 AM

According to Ó Dónaill's dictionary "Foclóir Gaelige-Bearla", "banchríoch" means, "Green boundary strip between fields".

According to Terence Patrick Dolan's "A Dictionary of Hiberno-English", "banóg, also bawnogue", means "a patch of green". He gives the useage example, "they were dancing on the bawnogue until the crack of dawn".

However, as well as being a general noun, it's also a specific place name. Two examples are 1. The Bawnogue, just over the Wexford border into Co. Kilkenny, a few miles east of the town of Borris. It was her that Father John Murphy ("of Boolavogue") spent 26-28 June 1798 on the run before being captured and executed a few days later.
2. Bawnogue is also the name given to an area of Clondalkin, in south west Dublin City.

Subject: RE: Origins: Bantry Girls lament
From: GUEST,HughM
Date: 11 Jan 06 - 03:07 PM

Many thanks, Martin and Tim. That clears up a question which has been in my mind for ages! It seems a fairly safe bet then that the bawnogue in the song is The Bawnogue in Kilkenny.

Subject: RE: Origins: Bantry Girls lament
From: GUEST,Guest, Big Tim
Date: 12 Jan 06 - 05:09 AM

On balance, I would plump for "Bawnogue" in the song being used in the general sense, rather than the specific.

The Ó Dónaill dictionary gives 13 meanings for "bán"! The 13th is "talamh bán = fallow land, lea, grass-land", so, that's in agreement with Martin's dictionary! The more common word for "field" is though, "gort".

I have never heard the word "bawnogue" used in Donegal. Is it still in use elsewhere in Ireland?

Subject: RE: Origins: Bantry Girls lament
From: GUEST,john dean
Date: 07 Jun 16 - 07:37 AM

If the verse with peelers is original , it might place the song after the napoleonic wars but in the "Carlist" civil war in Spain in the 1840s [?], when an unofficial "British" brigade was raised in Britain and Ireland to fight for the previous kings daughter rather than [ the pretender,] Don Carlos,
giving emphasis to "fighting the dirty king of spain ".

Subject: RE: Origins: Bantry Girls lament
From: GUEST,Obscure Ed
Date: 31 Aug 17 - 02:19 PM

I'm visiting this old page after hearing Denny Bartley's fantastic version, with Chris Sherburn on concertina. A couple of comments:

The OED says that "peeler" originally referred to the Irish constabulary; the first cited use was in 1816. So the mention of peelers does not really help us with dating.

An early appearance of the song is in the Dublin University Magazine, Dec. 1863 (archive.org). The song text (essentially the same as the one quoted above) has a few helpful footnotes: "bawnoge" is defined as "village green"; "pathriarchs" [sic] as "a substitute for _patriots_ by Johnny's loving but unlearned admirers"; "Moneyhore" as "a village between Enniscorthy and Castleboro', with the privilege of fairs". The article purports to be a description of "Irish Harvest Homes and their Minstrelsy Fifty Years Since". The same article appeared in 1867 as a chapter in Patrick Kennedy's "The Banks of the Boro: A Chronicle in the County of Wexford".

Subject: RE: Origins: Bantry Girls lament
From: GUEST,Obscure Ed
Date: 01 Sep 17 - 05:39 AM

The song is in The Poets and Poetry of Ireland (1881), with an introductory paragraph:
The following spirited and humorous "lament" is taken from "The Banks of tbe Boro," by Patrick Kennedy, a story which gives with remarkable faithfulness and minuteness the incidents of Irish country life. It is given with a number of other specimens of peasant poetry.

Nowadays it tends to be sung straight, but humorous elements are there to see: "dirty king"; piper blowing the fire with his bellows; valiant boy in trouble with the peelers. Some of the language might be a caricature of country style ("pathriarchs", "throunce the buckeens... bekase our eyes"). Perhaps there's also a question of why Ireland's pride was dependent on war in the foreign land of Spain.

Subject: RE: Origins: Bantry Girls lament
From: GUEST,Rafael del Castillo
Date: 10 Sep 17 - 04:42 AM

Is it sure that Jhonny came t fight "against" the King of Spain?. In Spain there were three Regiments formed by irish: Ultonia, Ibernia and Irlanda. They fought for Spain more r less since 1689 untill 1814. The ctholic irish were widelly admired in the spanish forces and administration.

Subject: RE: Origins: Bantry Girls lament
From: GUEST,David Rowlands
Date: 03 Oct 17 - 05:38 AM

I believe that this song dates from the 1st Carlist War, a civil war in Spain (1833 to 1839), fought between supporters of the regent, Maria Christina, acting for Queen Isabella II of Spain, and those of the late king's brother, Carlos de Borbón. The Carlists supported return to an absolute monarchy.
The British Auxiliary Legion was raised and sent to Spain to support the Liberals and Queen Isabella against the Carlists (headed by 'the King of Spain'). It was raised mainly in the ports and cities of Britain and Ireland in 1835 and fought in the Basque territory in north-eastern Spain. The Legion was funded and the soldiers paid by the Spanish crown. In the summer of 1836 a force of 10,000 men under the command of General Sir George De Lacy Evans had assembled in San Sebastian. They fought near Hernani and Vittoria. The fighting was savage; no quarter was given. A former soldier wrote that to fall into the enemy's hands was certainly a tortured death. The volunteers signed up for 2 years service and a great many were Irishmen.
One of the Legion's two cavalry regiments was titled:
       2nd Queen's Own Irish Lancers – (predominantly Irishmen).
The Legion's ten battalions of infantry were organised into "English", "Scottish" and "Irish" brigades.
       1st English Battalion
       2nd English Battalion
       3rd Westminster Grenadiers – English
       4th Queen's Own Fusiliers – English
       5th Scotch – Scottish
       6th Scotch Grenadiers – Scottish
       7th Irish Light Infantry – Irish
       8th Highlanders – Scottish
       9th Irish Grenadiers – Irish
       10th Munster Light Infantry – Irish

The 7th Irish Light Infantry, 9th Battalion (Irish Grenadiers) and 10th battalion (Munster Light Infantry) were brigaded together under Brigadier-General Charles Shaw, a veteran of 1815 and the Portuguese Civil War. The brigade quickly won a reputation for being one of the toughest units of the Legion.
After heavy casualties in action and from disease the Legion was disbanded in December 1837. A quarter of the force (some 2,500 men)died,only half of them in combat.

Subject: RE: Origins: Bantry Girls lament
From: Gutcher
Date: 04 Oct 17 - 05:03 AM

S.R.Crocket wrote an historical novel about the war mentioned in the last post.

I must dig out my copy and check out the Irish/Scots references.

Subject: RE: Origins: Bantry Girls lament
From: The Sandman
Date: 22 Nov 18 - 05:03 AM

i love the line about the pper lighting the fire with his bellows

Subject: RE: Origins: Bantry Girls lament
From: The Sandman
Date: 23 Nov 18 - 02:44 PM

anyone know the meaning of the line
And once you trounce the buckeens
That show us much dis[G]dain
Be[C]cause our eyes are not as bright
As those you'll [G]find in [C]Spain

Subject: RE: Origins: Bantry Girl's Lament
From: GUEST
Date: 11 Sep 23 - 11:22 AM

The song is from North County Wexford. The Barony of Bantry, in the County of Wexford was in place as far back as 1672.
Moneyhore is a townland in the Barony of Bantry and was the home of Thomas Cloney, one of the leaders of the 1798 rebellion.
Lewis's Topographical Dictionary of Ireland, 1837 identifies Moneyhore as a place where cattle fairs 'are held at Moneyhore on the 25th of Feb., March, and May, on Oct. 2nd, and Dec. 7th; four of these are held by patent, for which a fee of 15s. per ann. is paid to the Crown by Mr. Wm. Condon, of Dublin.' Faction fighting and at least one death, are reported as occurring at the fairs.
The first printed version of the song is in a readily available book by Patrick Kennedy titled 'The Banks of the Boro : a chronicle of the County of Wexford'. According to the author, the book relates events that took place in 1817/18. One of the characters in the book sings the song. The manuscript of the book, again according to the author's preface, was completed in 1856. The book appears to have been published in 1869.
The words of the song have been altered a little along the way. This includes the modernisation of archaic words such as 'pathriarchs ' and 'bekase'. (Personally, I prefer to sing the song in as original a version as is available, and I like the selling of the corn and the washing of the sheep).
I agree with Dave Rowlands, who is a considerable expert in military history, about the origins of the song being in the Carlist war period (see above). This is obviously after the 1817/18 period that Kennedy states he is relating. More likely, Kennedy heard the song, or possibly even wrote the song, much closer to 1856 when he claims to have completed the manuscript. The 'dirty King of Spain' is a fairly clear reference to the 'Carlist pretender' to the throne, as opposed to the Spanish Queen.

Subject: RE: Origins: Bantry Girl's Lament
From: GUEST,Gabriel
Date: 11 Sep 23 - 11:35 AM

As above (from me, Gabriel Scally) the lyrics as given in the earliest recognised text that I have located, are as follows:

O who will plough the field, or who will sell the corn?
O who will wash the sheep, an' have 'em nicely shorn?
The stack that's on the haggard, unthrashed it may remain
Since Johnny went a-thrashing the dirty King o’ Spain

The girls from the bawnoge in sorrow may retire
And the piper and his bellows may go home and blow the fire
For Johnny, lovely Johnny, is sailin’ o'er the main
Along with other pathriarchs, to fight the King o' Spain

The boys will sorely miss him when Moneyhore comes round
And grieve that their bould captain is nowhere to be found
The peelers must stand idle against their will and grain
For the valiant boy who gave them work now peels the King o' Spain

At wakes and hurling matches your like we'll never see
Till you come back again to us a-stóir grádh geal mo-chroídhe
And won't you throunce the buckeens that shows us much disdain
Bekase our eyes are not as black as those you'll meet in Spain

If cruel fate will not permit our Johnny to return
His heavy loss we Bantry girls will never cease to mourn
We'll resign ourselves to our sad lot, and die in grief and pain
Since Johnny died for Ireland's pride in the foreign land o’ Spain

Subject: RE: Origins: Bantry Girl's Lament
From: Lighter
Date: 11 Sep 23 - 12:40 PM

Nice find, Gabriel.

The song appeared a little earlier in Kennedy's article "Irish Harvest Homes and Their Minstrelsy Fifty Years Since," in the Dublin University Magazine (Dec., 1863).

Subject: RE: Origins: Bantry Girl's Lament
From: GUEST,RJM
Date: 11 Sep 23 - 01:46 PM

The song is generally reckoned tp be from co Wexford, Carlist War of 1833–39?

Subject: RE: Origins: Bantry Girl's Lament
From: GUEST,RJM
Date: 11 Sep 23 - 01:54 PM

Moneyhore Townland, Co. Wexford
https://www.youtube.com/watch?app=desktop&v=9Jzy_JxrSfo

Subject: RE: Origins: Bantry Girl's Lament
From: Lighter
Date: 11 Sep 23 - 03:06 PM

Kennedy places the song in 1817-18.

If correct, that would make it a relic of the Peninsular War.

Of curse, the UK was supporting, not fighting the "King of Spain" at that time, but the reference in the song might just be meant to suggest the speaker's provincial naivete'. Historically, the King of Spain would more likely be an adversary than an ally.

As usual, there's no proof either way. (Oxford shows the word "peeler" to have been in use by 1816 in reference to the Royal Irish Constabulary.)

Subject: RE: Origins: Bantry Girl's Lament
From: GUEST,RJM
Date: 11 Sep 23 - 03:29 PM

When King Ferdinand VII of Spain died in 1833, his widow, Queen Maria Cristina, became regent on behalf of their two-year-old daughter Queen IsabellA

lighter
you are wrong the uk was not supporting the king of spain your scholarship is wrong      ,there is no 'of course.

The British Auxiliary Legion in the First Carlist War, 1835–8
Edward M. Brett
Hardback €49.50
Catalogue Price: €55.00
ISBN: 1-85182-915-6
May 2005. 208pp; ills.

The two Carlist wars are probably the least remembered, outside Spain, of the civil conflicts of the country. In the first of these, as in 1936, foreign volunteers fought on both sides, among them the 10,000 men of the British Auxiliary Legion, an arm of Palmerston's foreign policy supporting the liberal Cristino cause and the young Queen Isabella II against her uncle, Don Carlos, pretender to the throne. With the Foreign Enlistment Act suspended in 1835, troops were recruited in Britain and Ireland to fight in a savage struggle. Ill-paid, poorly supplied and inadequately accommodated in appalling weather, the Legion suffered heavy mortality from typhus, yet fought bravely in battle, contributing to an eventual Cristino victory. Ireland played a prominent role in the Legion with four designated Irish regiments and many more men serving in other units.

The involvement of an O'Connell ancestor, a young Irish doctor from Co. Limerick, in the First Carlist War, sparked Dr Brett's interest. His own semi-retirement from medicine has allowed him to pursue the subject in greater detail.
The British Auxiliary Legion in the First Carlist War, 1835–8
Reviews
I have researched this song BEFORE I SANG IT

Subject: RE: Origins: Bantry Girl's Lament
From: Lighter
Date: 11 Sep 23 - 07:49 PM

Please read my "scholarship" more carefully.

Subject: RE: Origins: Bantry Girl's Lament
From: GUEST,RJM
Date: 12 Sep 23 - 02:30 AM

The UK was fighting the king of Spain,which is what the song is about

If your mean at some other time, eg 1817 to 18, your post is not very clear, as you then make a reference to the song.

Subject: RE: Origins: Bantry Girl's Lament
From: GUEST,John Moulden
Date: 12 Sep 23 - 08:18 AM

Given its provenance - Colm O'Lochlainn used Kennedy extensively, the setting and the wording, The most likely background is that of the First Carlist War and the George De Lacey-Evans Expedition. I've discussed this with the prominent Wexford singer and researcher, Paddy Berry over the last several years.

Subject: RE: Origins: Bantry Girl's Lament
From: Lighter
Date: 12 Sep 23 - 09:25 AM

Kennedy must have known that Britain supported the Spanish king in the Peninsular War, making it a considerable blunder to drop a song about fighting the King of Spain in the 1830s into the context of 1817 or so.

Subject: RE: Origins: Bantry Girl's Lament
From: GUEST,RJM
Date: 13 Sep 23 - 04:44 AM

So lloyd is not the only scholar to make a mistake., whether the mistake was deliberate or accidental we do not know,
a misprint also creates confusion in this case, it is not moneymore

Subject: RE: Origins: Bantry Girl's Lament
From: Lighter
Date: 13 Sep 23 - 11:05 AM

FWIW, Britain also opposed Spain in most of the Coalition Wars (1792-1815), which might also have provided impetus for the ballad.

Subject: RE: Origins: Bantry Girl's Lament
From: GUEST
Date: 14 Sep 23 - 02:36 AM

might and might not

Subject: RE: Origins: Bantry Girl's Lament
From: GUEST
Date: 11 Sep 23 - 11:22 AM

The song is from North County Wexford. The Barony of Bantry, in the County of Wexford was in place as far back as 1672.
Moneyhore is a townland in the Barony of Bantry and was the home of Thomas Cloney, one of the leaders of the 1798 rebellion.
Lewis's Topographical Dictionary of Ireland, 1837 identifies Moneyhore as a place where cattle fairs 'are held at Moneyhore on the 25th of Feb., March, and May, on Oct. 2nd, and Dec. 7th; four of these are held by patent, for which a fee of 15s. per ann. is paid to the Crown by Mr. Wm. Condon, of Dublin.' Faction fighting and at least one death, are reported as occurring at the fairs.
The first printed version of the song is in a readily available book by Patrick Kennedy titled 'The Banks of the Boro : a chronicle of the County of Wexford'. According to the author, the book relates events that took place in 1817/18. One of the characters in the book sings the song. The manuscript of the book, again according to the author's preface, was completed in 1856. The book appears to have been published in 1869.
The words of the song have been altered a little along the way. This includes the modernisation of archaic words such as 'pathriarchs ' and 'bekase'. (Personally, I prefer to sing the song in as original a version as is available, and I like the selling of the corn and the washing of the sheep).
I agree with Dave Rowlands, who is a considerable expert in military history, about the origins of the song being in the Carlist war period (see above). This is obviously after the 1817/18 period that Kennedy states he is relating. More likely, Kennedy heard the song, or possibly even wrote the song, much closer to 1856 when he claims to have completed the manuscript. The 'dirty King of Spain' is a fairly clear reference to the 'Carlist pretender' to the throne, as opposed to the Spanish Queen.

Subject: RE: Origins: Bantry Girl's Lament
From: GUEST,Gabriel
Date: 11 Sep 23 - 11:35 AM

As above (from me, Gabriel Scally) the lyrics as given in the earliest recognised text that I have located, are as follows:

O who will plough the field, or who will sell the corn?
O who will wash the sheep, an' have 'em nicely shorn?
The stack that's on the haggard, unthrashed it may remain
Since Johnny went a-thrashing the dirty King o’ Spain

The girls from the bawnoge in sorrow may retire
And the piper and his bellows may go home and blow the fire
For Johnny, lovely Johnny, is sailin’ o'er the main
Along with other pathriarchs, to fight the King o' Spain

The boys will sorely miss him when Moneyhore comes round
And grieve that their bould captain is nowhere to be found
The peelers must stand idle against their will and grain
For the valiant boy who gave them work now peels the King o' Spain

At wakes and hurling matches your like we'll never see
Till you come back again to us a-stóir grádh geal mo-chroídhe
And won't you throunce the buckeens that shows us much disdain
Bekase our eyes are not as black as those you'll meet in Spain

If cruel fate will not permit our Johnny to return
His heavy loss we Bantry girls will never cease to mourn
We'll resign ourselves to our sad lot, and die in grief and pain
Since Johnny died for Ireland's pride in the foreign land o’ Spain

Subject: RE: Origins: Bantry Girl's Lament
From: GUEST,RJM
Date: 11 Sep 23 - 01:46 PM

The song is generally reckoned tp be from co Wexford, Carlist War of 1833–39?

Subject: RE: Origins: Bantry Girl's Lament
From: GUEST,RJM
Date: 11 Sep 23 - 01:54 PM

Moneyhore Townland, Co. Wexford
https://www.youtube.com/watch?app=desktop&v=9Jzy_JxrSfo

Subject: RE: Origins: Bantry Girl's Lament
From: GUEST,RJM
Date: 11 Sep 23 - 03:29 PM

When King Ferdinand VII of Spain died in 1833, his widow, Queen Maria Cristina, became regent on behalf of their two-year-old daughter Queen IsabellA

lighter
you are wrong the uk was not supporting the king of spain your scholarship is wrong      ,there is no 'of course.

The British Auxiliary Legion in the First Carlist War, 1835–8
Edward M. Brett
Hardback €49.50
Catalogue Price: €55.00
ISBN: 1-85182-915-6
May 2005. 208pp; ills.

The two Carlist wars are probably the least remembered, outside Spain, of the civil conflicts of the country. In the first of these, as in 1936, foreign volunteers fought on both sides, among them the 10,000 men of the British Auxiliary Legion, an arm of Palmerston's foreign policy supporting the liberal Cristino cause and the young Queen Isabella II against her uncle, Don Carlos, pretender to the throne. With the Foreign Enlistment Act suspended in 1835, troops were recruited in Britain and Ireland to fight in a savage struggle. Ill-paid, poorly supplied and inadequately accommodated in appalling weather, the Legion suffered heavy mortality from typhus, yet fought bravely in battle, contributing to an eventual Cristino victory. Ireland played a prominent role in the Legion with four designated Irish regiments and many more men serving in other units.

The involvement of an O'Connell ancestor, a young Irish doctor from Co. Limerick, in the First Carlist War, sparked Dr Brett's interest. His own semi-retirement from medicine has allowed him to pursue the subject in greater detail.
The British Auxiliary Legion in the First Carlist War, 1835–8
Reviews
I have researched this song BEFORE I SANG IT

Subject: RE: Origins: Bantry Girl's Lament
From: GUEST,RJM
Date: 12 Sep 23 - 02:30 AM

The UK was fighting the king of Spain,which is what the song is about

If your mean at some other time, eg 1817 to 18, your post is not very clear, as you then make a reference to the song.

Subject: RE: Origins: Bantry Girl's Lament
From: GUEST,John Moulden
Date: 12 Sep 23 - 08:18 AM

Given its provenance - Colm O'Lochlainn used Kennedy extensively, the setting and the wording, The most likely background is that of the First Carlist War and the George De Lacey-Evans Expedition. I've discussed this with the prominent Wexford singer and researcher, Paddy Berry over the last several years.

Subject: RE: Origins: Bantry Girl's Lament
From: GUEST,RJM
Date: 13 Sep 23 - 04:44 AM

So lloyd is not the only scholar to make a mistake., whether the mistake was deliberate or accidental we do not know,
a misprint also creates confusion in this case, it is not moneymore

Subject: RE: Origins: Bantry Girl's Lament
From: GUEST
Date: 14 Sep 23 - 02:36 AM

might and might not

Subject: RE: Origins: Bantry Girl's Lament
From: Lighter
Date: 11 Sep 23 - 12:40 PM

Nice find, Gabriel.

The song appeared a little earlier in Kennedy's article "Irish Harvest Homes and Their Minstrelsy Fifty Years Since," in the Dublin University Magazine (Dec., 1863).

Subject: RE: Origins: Bantry Girl's Lament
From: Lighter
Date: 11 Sep 23 - 03:06 PM

Kennedy places the song in 1817-18.

If correct, that would make it a relic of the Peninsular War.

Of curse, the UK was supporting, not fighting the "King of Spain" at that time, but the reference in the song might just be meant to suggest the speaker's provincial naivete'. Historically, the King of Spain would more likely be an adversary than an ally.

As usual, there's no proof either way. (Oxford shows the word "peeler" to have been in use by 1816 in reference to the Royal Irish Constabulary.)

Subject: RE: Origins: Bantry Girl's Lament
From: Lighter
Date: 11 Sep 23 - 07:49 PM

Please read my "scholarship" more carefully.

Subject: RE: Origins: Bantry Girl's Lament
From: Lighter
Date: 12 Sep 23 - 09:25 AM

Kennedy must have known that Britain supported the Spanish king in the Peninsular War, making it a considerable blunder to drop a song about fighting the King of Spain in the 1830s into the context of 1817 or so.

Subject: RE: Origins: Bantry Girl's Lament
From: Lighter
Date: 13 Sep 23 - 11:05 AM

FWIW, Britain also opposed Spain in most of the Coalition Wars (1792-1815), which might also have provided impetus for the ballad.

Subject: RE: Origins: Bantry Girl's Lament
From: The Sandman
Date: 07 Dec 24 - 04:39 PM

https://drive.google.com/file/d/1U3MmpHU0OwXrg87tJy-iHgHGsq9YYVoI/view new track