BS: Fawning Germans

Subject: BS: Fawning Germans
From: Leadbelly
Date: 27 Jul 08 - 01:00 PM

Cannot believe that this is McCains opinion about some Germans but it must be true. Unbelieveable!

"He (Obamas) prioritises throngs of fawning Germans over meeting with wounded combat troops in Germany," Mr Bounds said." From The Australian and others.

Now we know what to expect from this candidate. Seems to be a new approach in partnership.

Manfred from Germany

Subject: RE: BS: Fawning Germans
From: Ebbie
Date: 27 Jul 08 - 01:17 PM

It's hard for me to fathom how far McCain has fallen in my estimation. At one time I thought he was honest and forthright. His major fault to my mind was that his views were too far rigidly 'right wing'. I take back just about every good thought I'd had about him.



"Update: Obama spokesperson Tommy Vietor just released a response to the McCain ad on Saturday evening:

J"ohn McCain is an honorable man who is running an increasingly dishonorable campaign. Senator McCain knows full well that Senator Obama strongly supports and honors our troops, which is what makes this attack so disingenuous. Senator Obama was honored to meet with our men and women in uniform in Iraq and Afghanistan this week and has visited wounded soldiers at Walter Reed numerous times. This politicization of our soldiers is exactly what Senator Obama sought to avoid, and it's not worthy of Senator McCain or the "civil" campaign he claimed he would run.

Update

Subject: RE: BS: Fawning Germans
From: CarolC
Date: 27 Jul 08 - 01:27 PM

I seriously considered voting for McCain in 2000, had he gotten his party's nomination, for all the same reasons I would never consider voting for him now. I respect candidates who show honesty and integrity and who put principles before political opportunism. He seemed to have those qualities then (I have since learned that he did not) - he does not have those qualities now.

Subject: RE: BS: Fawning Germans
From: Little Hawk
Date: 27 Jul 08 - 02:01 PM

If people great you with tremendous enthusiasm, it is usually a clear indication that they like you and respect you, perhaps because you are worthy of their respect and liking. If someone else calls it "fawning", it's probably because that someone else finds it quite inconvenient for their own agenda. McCain would love it if millions of Europeans were "fawning" over him in a similar fashion...but they're not. Gee, that's tough, isn't it? Maybe he should wear a T-shirt that says "Mr Charisma" and see if it makes a difference.

Subject: RE: BS: Fawning Germans
From: Bill D
Date: 27 Jul 08 - 02:04 PM

In case anyone is wondering why Obama did not visit the servicemen.....the Pentagon attached conditions to such a visit involving who on his staff could accompany Obama, but did not clarify or notify them until the last minute. Obama DID visit the wounded in Iraq, with very little fanfare.

McCain's campaign, finding itself in trouble and desperate for any way to gain perceived leverage, is trying to paint anything Obama does or does NOT do in a negative light.

I am just waiting for a critique of how Obama buttons his suit jacket when meeting foreign dignitaries...

Subject: RE: BS: Fawning Germans
From: Alice
Date: 27 Jul 08 - 02:51 PM

Obama is damned if he does or doesn't do anything. The sharks are circling.

Leadbelly, because you are in Germany, I'm interested in how you reacted to Obama visiting Germany and speaking there. What is your opinion?

Alice

Subject: RE: BS: Fawning Germans
From: heric
Date: 27 Jul 08 - 03:05 PM

I agree with Ebbie yet again. I think McCain, either on his own or through his servants for whom he takes responsibility, has pretty much blown it this weekend. Obama has gone on the world stage - by orchestrating a world tour with great skill. McCain could never get such a reception.

Obama should never have even thought to see wounded soldiers during a campaign show - it would have seemed crass and manipulative beyond belief, and McCain's campaign would have said so.

McCain could have gone and voted on the bailout yesterday, and just said I am here working, and addressing real issues at home, good for Obama. This would have given him some of the Truman factor - the buck stops here; stalwart acheiver with a working record still ongoing. Instead he has let himself appear as a lonely sniper.

Amos posted an excerpt from the Scotsman yesterday that said it all well in the last sentence. This election is all about Obama. He will convince enough people to trust him, despite any real record, or he won't. If he doesn't, McCain gets the Presidency by default.

Subject: RE: BS: Fawning Germans
From: Leadbelly
Date: 27 Jul 08 - 03:14 PM

Alice, in total, positive impression of his speech. Although I do believe, basically nothing will change in US foreign politics.
But Obama seems to be more open to discussions with European and other countries before taking action as to international decisions.
In any case he might be a better choice than McCain is.
But only time will tell...

Manfred

Subject: RE: BS: Fawning Germans
From: GUEST,Peter
Date: 27 Jul 08 - 03:31 PM

I think McCain should get rid of Tucker Bounds.

Subject: RE: BS: Fawning Germans
From: GUEST,Jack the Sailor
Date: 27 Jul 08 - 03:42 PM

The opposing photo ops that McCain chose were surreal.

Obama with Petraus in a helicopter, McCain with pappy Bush in a blue golf cart.
Obama's press conferences on the mountain, at the holocost memorial, in front of the shells and rockets.
McCain in front of cheese and "Dole" juice.
Obama speaking to two hundred thousand in Germany
McCain speaking to 20 at a german restaurant.

Was it his way of getting coverage on Colbert and The Daily Show?

Was McCain deliberately ridiculing himself?

Subject: RE: BS: Fawning Germans
From: GUEST,Peter
Date: 27 Jul 08 - 03:52 PM

McCain has a serious problem with symbolism...
or maybe just very bad advisors.

Subject: RE: BS: Fawning Germans
From: GUEST,Jack the Sailor
Date: 27 Jul 08 - 03:55 PM

He has behaved very strangely this week.

Are people going to get sick of him demanding that Obama say that the surge was a success. He is in big trouble in defining his campaign around what Obama DOES NOT admit.

Subject: RE: BS: Fawning Germans
From: Charley Noble
Date: 27 Jul 08 - 04:07 PM

According to the video of McCain in the supermarket that I viewed the other night on the Daily Show, he even got into trouble there as a whole shelf of pickled peppers collapsed behind him.

But let's get back to the real issues, if there are any left...

Charley Noble

Subject: RE: BS: Fawning Germans
From: GUEST,Jack the Sailor
Date: 27 Jul 08 - 04:09 PM

The main stream TV shows, have been kind to McCain. Even Olberman did not show that cascade of jars.

Subject: RE: BS: Fawning Germans
From: Charley Noble
Date: 27 Jul 08 - 04:15 PM

Here's the link to the Daily Show clip (before viewing this video you're advised to put down your coffee in a secure place): click here!

"Campaign clean-up in aisle two!"

Cheerily,
Charley Noble

Subject: RE: BS: Fawning Germans
From: GUEST,Cy
Date: 27 Jul 08 - 04:40 PM

In case McCain wins the election (I hope NOT), I can already see him "fawning" through Europe, begging for support for his next useless war..

Subject: RE: BS: Fawning Germans
From: gnu
Date: 27 Jul 08 - 05:07 PM

"We're sorry but this video is not available."

Subject: RE: BS: Fawning Germans
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 27 Jul 08 - 05:21 PM

There've been a couple of threads recently about the daft names some parents give to their children, and the impact it can have on them in later life.

Is "Tucker", as in this "Tucker Bounds" an example of stupid parents like this? Or is it a nickname indicating he eats too much?

Subject: RE: BS: Fawning Germans
From: curmudgeon
Date: 27 Jul 08 - 05:24 PM

Probably his mother's maiden name. Many's the child cursed similarly.

Subject: RE: BS: Fawning Germans
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 27 Jul 08 - 06:13 PM

Americans don't go in for rhyming slang much, do they?...

Subject: RE: BS: Fawning Germans
From: GUEST,Jack the Sailor
Date: 27 Jul 08 - 06:27 PM

sorry gnu, I don't think they allow daily show clips in Canada.

here is the raw clip without Stewart's quips.

Apple sauce attack!

Subject: RE: BS: Fawning Germans
From: CarolC
Date: 27 Jul 08 - 06:28 PM

USans mostly don't know about rhyming slang. Similarly, among people in the US, the name "Tucker" would not evoke any sort of connection with eating, either.

Subject: RE: BS: Fawning Germans
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 27 Jul 08 - 07:31 PM

So it's best not to advise an American guest to "tuck in" to a meal.

That could be a very useful scrap of information.

Subject: RE: BS: Fawning Germans
From: Alice
Date: 27 Jul 08 - 07:37 PM

over here, you just tuck in your shirt (shirt tail into your pants).

Subject: RE: BS: Fawning Germans
From: GUEST
Date: 27 Jul 08 - 07:50 PM

As I said in another discussion: Before that comment I just did not go along with McCain's political ideas. However, now he has completely lost my respect, too (and I guess of some other hundreds of Germans).

There is one positive aspect, though: If McCain should indeed become the new American president he will have to think twice about coming to Germany - because I am looking forward to showing him how "warmly" the fawning Germans can greet an American president like him.

Don't forget: guest posts without a name risk being deleted. Please remember to sign in with a consistent name.

Subject: RE: BS: Fawning Germans
From: DougR
Date: 27 Jul 08 - 07:51 PM

Carol C: "I respect candidates who show honesty and integrity and who put principles before political opportunities." Then who are you going to vote for in the presidential election? Surely not Obama.

As to Obama not visiting the wounded troops in Germany. He had every opportunity. The Pentagon released a statement, which has been widely reported on CNN and Fox News clarifying it's requirements were he to visit them. He, as a U. S. Senator would be most welcome. However he could not bring his two or three hundred adoring news reporters with him. He chose not to visit them (after all, what would be the point if there were no photographers present).

DougR

Subject: RE: BS: Fawning Germans
From: GUEST
Date: 27 Jul 08 - 08:05 PM

It doesn't matter if Obama he visited the troops or not. Tucker Bounds gives us a first inside on McCains' planned "foreign policy".

Don't forget: guest posts without a name risk being deleted. Please remember to sign in with a consistent name.

Subject: RE: BS: Fawning Germans
From: GUEST,Thor
Date: 27 Jul 08 - 08:07 PM

Sorry, but Mr. Bounds is just condescending towards Germans. I just wonder why? Of course I don't have the right to speak for my fellow citizens, but since this statement about "fawning Germans" went across the news in my home country, I can only imagine what they think about Senator McCain and his campaign. Bounds claims that the Senator would not have to prove credentials on foreign policy matters, but it appears that Bounds himself doesn't have any.
Highly inappropriate!

Subject: RE: BS: Fawning Germans
From: CarolC
Date: 27 Jul 08 - 08:10 PM

I may vote for Obama. And if I do, it will be because of his position on a few issues, and not because I necessarily think he shows those qualities.

Subject: RE: BS: Fawning Germans
From: heric
Date: 27 Jul 08 - 08:11 PM

Manfred I hope it is clear in translation that McCain intended no insult to Germans with that quote. If he had said fawning Frenchmen, that would have been an insult. It's in the idiosynchrocies of the language.

Subject: RE: BS: Fawning Germans
From: Alice
Date: 27 Jul 08 - 08:23 PM

heric, I don't understand your message. Fawning means fawning, whether applied to Germans or French. I don't think you can tweak what McCain said. It is what it is.

Subject: RE: BS: Fawning Germans
From: GUEST
Date: 27 Jul 08 - 08:26 PM

Not McCain, but his advisor Tucker Bounds was pretty clear. Just watch the video.

http://www.liveleak.com/view?i=b94_1217184781

Don't forget: guest posts without a name risk being deleted. Please remember to sign in with a consistent name.

Subject: RE: BS: Fawning Germans
From: Alice
Date: 27 Jul 08 - 08:31 PM

OK, what Tucker said, then. It does not seem like McCain to call the Germans "fawning". I thought more of him than that. Makes sense it was a statement from Tucker.

Subject: RE: BS: Fawning Germans
From: Alice
Date: 27 Jul 08 - 08:36 PM

And this fawning comment from someone in his campaign is just one more example of how McCain's campaign is really running off track. The dignity he had at one time is slipping away fast.

Subject: RE: BS: Fawning Germans
From: kendall
Date: 27 Jul 08 - 08:46 PM

I lost all respect for McCain when he accused Kerry of attacking the IQ of the soldiers in Iraq when he knew that the joke was on Bush.

Now, he blames Obama for the rising price of gasoline. He is pathetic in his desperation.

Subject: RE: BS: Fawning Germans
From: heric
Date: 27 Jul 08 - 08:57 PM

I just meant that Americans could no more envision fawning Germans than they could grasp Tucker Bounds as a joke about being hungry. Putting the two words together is like a brain glitch in action.

But never mind McCain didn't say it in a senior moment, as I had thought. I just watched the video of that little punk. Fox News / Young Republicans in caricature. It's pathetic. McCain is letting the people around him make it appear that HE'S the novice in this race.

Subject: RE: BS: Fawning Germans
From: GUEST,Jack the Sailor
Date: 27 Jul 08 - 08:58 PM

Obama has been to Walter Reed nine times. Its not that he won't visit wounded troops. The Republicans are lying.

Subject: RE: BS: Fawning Germans
From: CarolC
Date: 27 Jul 08 - 09:03 PM

And he visited them in Iraq. This kind of thing just makes McCain look very desperate.

Subject: RE: BS: Fawning Germans
From: GUEST,Gil
Date: 27 Jul 08 - 09:04 PM

McCain should distance himself from Tucker Bounds.

Subject: RE: BS: Fawning Germans
From: heric
Date: 27 Jul 08 - 10:10 PM

Although this is a pretty funny quote from Obama: "The world is waiting for America to re-engage in the Middle East," he said.

Subject: RE: BS: Fawning Germans
From: GUEST,JWJ
Date: 28 Jul 08 - 01:45 AM

It's a painfully obvious case of sour grapes. If those Germans would have been cheering for McCain, they'd be "enthusiastic allies". Alas, they are enthusiastic about the wrong guy, thus they must be "fawning".

If that's the best they got, I think the next president will be called Obama.

Subject: RE: BS: Fawning Germans
From: Wilfried Schaum
Date: 28 Jul 08 - 06:22 AM

German proverb: What does the German Oak care which dog is pissing on it down there?

Wilfried

Subject: RE: BS: Fawning Germans
From: Leadbelly
Date: 28 Jul 08 - 06:42 AM

Well done, Wilfried

Manfred

Subject: RE: BS: Fawning Germans
From: GUEST,5oag
Date: 28 Jul 08 - 08:23 AM

As a German i feel deeply insulted by McCain's - or at least one of his spokesman's - statement about fawning germans. He has no right to insult a whole nation. it is absolutely childish and inappropriate for someone who runs for presidency.
it does not matter if you're pro Obama or pro McCain to feel insulted.... after all people from germany are not gonna vote anyway

Subject: RE: BS: Fawning Germans
From: GUEST,DV
Date: 28 Jul 08 - 12:09 PM

Alice, you said it all--McCain's campaign has seriously gone off the rails since Obama won the nomination. He needs to do some housecleaning, and fast.

I already knew that McCain hadn't made the comment himself, but still, he has had too many harsh moments like this and his brand could be harmed if he can't get traction going in a different direction.

I'll be voting for Obama, but I still believe him to be a weak candidate for the general election.

That is, I thought that until I watched the McCain campaign go in the ditich this summer.

Subject: RE: BS: Fawning Germans
From: DougR
Date: 28 Jul 08 - 12:15 PM

Appeared like fawning to me. Check out today's Doonsberry cartoon.

DougR

Subject: RE: BS: Fawning Germans
From: heric
Date: 28 Jul 08 - 12:44 PM

I laughed out loud where John Stewart said their flags don't work - they couldn't light them. That WAS a strange image.

Subject: RE: BS: Fawning Germans
From: Bill D
Date: 28 Jul 08 - 12:51 PM

I don't get the connection, Doug. Today's Doonesbury cartoon was just sort of teasing Obama about using 'change' in every statement. Not even a real strong tease.

What happens in the mind to change 'overwhelming approval' and 'welcoming appreciation' to a loaded term like 'fawning'?

Obama was pretty well-received and his basic message admired in most of the places he visited. He is not president yet, and it would not be prudent to make serious & detailed policy plans & promises unless & until he DOES win. Therefore, simply suggesting a strong message of hope & **change** to other countries was prudent. Remember...McCain was suggesting that he NEEDED to go see places and learn and talk to them if he was to be a serious candidate. So...he did.

Gee, Senator McCain....you forgot to mention he was to do a mediocre job of it!

Subject: RE: BS: Fawning Germans
From: PoppaGator
Date: 28 Jul 08 - 12:51 PM

"Although I do believe, basically nothing will change in US foreign politics."

Dang, I sure hope not! Indeed, I would assume that the election of Obama, or of any Democrat, had damn well better bring about a major about-face in US foreign policy.

Under the Bush administration, the United States started a war with a first-strike invasion for the first time in its history, made torture an explicit policy for the first time, and alienated virtually every allied nation (with the single exception of Mr. Blair's UK government).

A serious and abrupt reversal would only be a return to normal civilized behavior, and is the very least that I would expect from a President Obama, and for that matter even from a President McCain.

Subject: RE: BS: Fawning Germans
From: Amos
Date: 28 Jul 08 - 01:02 PM

Actually, Poppa, I believe the US invasion of the Phillipines was similarly pre-emptive.

But basically, the rough-shod unilateralism, the going-it-alone-cowboy approach, the quickdraw militarism and the overall gloss of deception and dishonesty are what make other nations look at the United States as a loose cannon. That's a real drop in standing in the international community from being the bright hope for freedom around the world.

A

Subject: RE: BS: Fawning Germans
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 28 Jul 08 - 01:27 PM

The last thing you'd surely want, if you were a soldier recovering in hospital, is any politician pestering you as part of some a public relations exercise. If Obama had done what he's being blamed for not doing, it would have been both not just politically stupid, but very bad manners.

There used to be talk about people carrying cars saying that, in the event of their being injured in am IRA bombing or whatever, they did not wish to have Margaret Thatcher come to visit their bedside.

Subject: RE: BS: Fawning Germans
From: Ernest
Date: 28 Jul 08 - 01:33 PM

Good news for Manfred, Wilfried, 5oag and me!

The culprits have been found - members of the N24 news network have been found to be the fawning germans!

Excerpt from an article in Germany`s "Frankurter Allgemeine Zeitung" of today:

"Am Nachmittag strahlt N24-Reporter Heiko Paluschka wie ein kleiner Junge, der beim Fußball gerade zum Mannschaftskapitän befördert wurde: Er hat mit Barack Obama gesprochen! Exklusiv! Und sonst keiner! Hektisch unterbrechen die Moderatoren im Studio ihre Analyse, um zu ihm zu schalten, dann laufen die sensationellen Bilder: Obama steigt am Potsdamer Platz aus dem Auto, die N24-Kamera wackelt hinterher, aus dem Hintergrund ruft eine Stimme: „Mr. Obama, how do you like Berlin so far?" Obama weiß nicht, wo er hinschauen soll, ruft „It's wonderful" in die Menge, winkt und verschwindet wieder. Die Kollegin im Studio sagt begeistert: „Herzlichen Glückwunsch, Heiko. Du hast es geschafft!" So sehen Höhepunkte einer Reporterkarriere aus"

Very rough translation:
"In the afternoon N24 reporter Heiko Paluschka is grinning like a child that has just been made captain of his soccer team: He spoke with Barack Obama! Exclusive! Hectically the anchormen in the studio stop their analysis switching to him, then the sensational pictures appear: Obama is leaving the car at Potsdamer Platz, N24`s camera is bouncing behind, from the back a voice is heard: "Mr. Obama, how do you like Berlin so far?" Obama doesn`t know where to look, answers "It`s wonderful!" in the direction of the crowd, waves and disappears again. Presenter in the studio says: Congratulations, Heiko. You made it!" So looks the climax of a reporters career!"

article from FAZ (only in german)

My Conclusion:
McCains (or Mr. Bound`s) remark was rude. Still some of my countrymen act funny - (purposely?) overhearing that even Obama expects a stronger German engagement in Afghanistan.

Having not been part of that throngs I don`t see a reason to feel personally insulted.

Best
Ernest

Subject: RE: BS: Fawning Germans
From: Ernest
Date: 28 Jul 08 - 01:43 PM

An afterthought:

At least those Germans are fawning a real Democrat (pun intended) now, not just a flawless* one....

;0)
Ernest



* for those who haven`t heard/don`t remember: Our former chancellor Schröder once called Putin a "flawless democrat" (lupenreiner Demokrat)

Subject: RE: BS: Fawning Germans
From: GUEST,Jack the Sailor
Date: 28 Jul 08 - 01:51 PM

Ernest,

It seems that Putin is quite capable of fooling world leaders. Do you think that one day his people will see through him?

Subject: RE: BS: Fawning Germans
From: Ernest
Date: 28 Jul 08 - 02:17 PM

Good question, Jack.

Hard to tell what the russian people as a group will do. I think there are already people who see through him. Others might never do.

One wonders if Schröders weak eyes helped him to find a well payed job at Gazprom....

Best
Ernest

Subject: RE: BS: Fawning Germans
From: DougR
Date: 28 Jul 08 - 02:23 PM

'Splain, Amos. Which invasion of the Philippines? The one in WW2?

DougR

Subject: RE: BS: Fawning Germans
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 28 Jul 08 - 02:28 PM

I've never liked fawn. Lets paint them another colour.....magnolia! Its neutral, its modern - it goes well with modern furniture. And it lets people see they could superimpose their own style on Germans.

Subject: RE: BS: Fawning Germans
From: beardedbruce
Date: 28 Jul 08 - 02:39 PM

Doug,

I think Amos is refering to the point that the US started the Spanish-American War. Like the war against Tripoli, the Mexican war, the Civil War, the war of 1812, there is always a doubt as to who started the war. After all, the taking of a US ship by "pirates" was accepeed practice- we just would not pay ransom, and were held responsible for the lost value ( to Tripoli) when we burned it. The SA war was caused by the Hearst newspapers, after there was an accidental explosion aboard the Maine. The War of 1812 was caused by the US response to the British actions of "impressing" sailors that the British claimed were formerly their citizens, and the Mexican war was a land grab, of course.

And we will not discuss any of the wars caused by the Monroe Doctrine ( ie, our invasions of most of Central/South America



So much for "the United States started a war with a first-strike invasion for the first time in its history," : We have been doing it all along.

Subject: RE: BS: Fawning Germans
From: Little Hawk
Date: 28 Jul 08 - 02:41 PM

No, Doug, this war in the Phillipines, immediatedly following the end of the Spanish-American War in 1989:

"Many in the United States, including President McKinley and Theodore Roosevelt, welcomed Kipling's rousing call for the United States to engage in "savage wars," beginning in the Philippines. Senator Albert J. Beveridge of Indiana declared: "God has not been preparing the English-speaking and Teutonic peoples for a thousand years for nothing but vain and idle self-contemplation and self-admiration....He has made us adept in government that we may administer government among savage and senile peoples." In the end more than 126,000 officers and men were sent to the Philippines to put down the Filipino resistance during a war that lasted officially from 1899 to 1902 but actually continued much longer, with sporadic resistance for most of a decade. U.S. troops logged 2,800 engagements with the Filipino resistance. At least a quarter of a million Filipinos, most of them civilians, were killed along with 4,200 U.S. soldiers (more than ten times the number of U.S. fatalities in the Spanish-American War).*

From the beginning it was clear that the Filipino forces were unable to match the United States in conventional warfare. They therefore quickly switched to guerrilla warfare. U.S. troops at war with the Filipinos boasted in a popular marching song that they would "civilize them with the Krag" (referring to the Norwegian-designed gun with which the U.S. forces were outfitted). Yet they found themselves facing interminable small attacks and ambushes by Filipinos, who often carried long knives known as bolos. These guerrilla attacks resulted in combat deaths of U.S. soldiers in small numbers on a regular basis. As in all prolonged guerrilla wars, the strength of the Filipino resistance was due to the fact that it had the support of the Filipino population in general. As General Arthur MacArthur (the father of Douglas MacArthur), who became military governor of the Philippines in 1900, confided to a reporter in 1899:

When I first started in against these rebels, I believed that Aguinaldo's troops represented only a faction. I did not like to believe that the whole population of Luzon—the native population that is—was opposed to us and our offers of aid and good government. But after having come this far, after having occupied several towns and cities in succession... I have been reluctantly compelled to believe that the Filipino masses are loyal to Aguinaldo and the government which he heads.
Faced with a guerrilla struggle supported by the vast majority of the population, the U.S. military responded by resettling populations in concentration camps, burning down villages (Filipinos were sometimes forced to carry the petrol used in burning down their own homes), mass hangings and bayonetings of suspects, systematic raping of women and girls, and torture. The most infamous torture technique, used repeatedly in the war, was the so-called "water cure." Vast quantities of water were forced down the throats of prisoners. Their stomachs were then stepped on so that the water shot out three feet in the air "like an artesian well." Most victims died not long afterwards. General Frederick Funston did not hesitate to announce that he had personally strung up a group of thirty-five Filipino civilians suspected of supporting the Filipino revolutionaries. Major Edwin Glenn saw no reason to deny the charge that he had made a group of forty-seven Filipino prisoners kneel and "repent of their sins" before bayoneting and clubbing them to death. General Jacob Smith ordered his troops to "kill and burn," to target "everything over ten," and to turn the island of Samar into "a howling wilderness." General William Shafter in California declared that it might be necessary to kill half the Filipino population in order to bring "perfect justice" to the other half. During the Philippine War the United States reversed the normal casualty statistics of war—usually many more are wounded than killed. According to official statistics (discussed in Congressional hearings on the war) U.S. troops killed fifteen times as many Filipinos as they wounded. This fit with frequent reports by U.S. soldiers that wounded and captured Filipino combatants were summarily executed on the spot.

***

For the whole article go to this link:

War in the Phillipines

Sorry to once again destroy your naive faith in your national mythology of "liberty and justice for all", Doug...but there it is. Just read the history books and find out how one grand imperial order (the Spanish) got replaced by another (the USA) against the explicit wishes of the native population of a foreign land.

Subject: RE: BS: Fawning Germans
From: Leadbelly
Date: 28 Jul 08 - 03:22 PM

Apart from all so far: isn't it funny that no prominent german politician has protested because of this insult of german people in Berlin? ....fawning...Mrs. Merkel...George Bush....???

Subject: RE: BS: Fawning Germans
From: Ernest
Date: 28 Jul 08 - 04:25 PM

Leadbelly: Since when is Bush a prominent GERMAN politician????

And German politicians (well: politicians from everywhere) have done their share when it comes to insulting someone I guess...


"Those who sit in a glass house shalt throw the first stone..."

;0)
Ernest

Subject: RE: BS: Fawning Germans
From: Leadbelly
Date: 28 Jul 08 - 05:06 PM

Ernest; my little play with words should mean: Merkel might be one prominent person who is really fawning because she does/did not protest. And obviously, that's because of her beloved friend in mind George W.
Was it so difficult to understand this? If so, sorry.

Manfred

Subject: RE: BS: Fawning Germans
From: GUEST,Jack the Sailor
Date: 28 Jul 08 - 05:33 PM

Didn't Merkel say she wanted a massage from Obama?

Subject: RE: BS: Fawning Germans
From: Bill D
Date: 28 Jul 08 - 05:39 PM

Doug R...would you care to respond to my request for clarification at 12:51PM? Or are my remarks irrelevant once Amos and a couple others have posted?

Subject: RE: BS: Fawning Germans
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 28 Jul 08 - 07:02 PM

the end of the Spanish-American War in 1989...

They managed to keep that one out of the papers didn't they!

Subject: RE: BS: Fawning Germans
From: Charley Noble
Date: 28 Jul 08 - 09:19 PM

With regard to the Spanish American War of 1898-?, the Philippine guerilla leader Emilio Aguinaldo was lured aboard a U.S. Navy gunboat for negotiations and then murdered. Not a pretty footnote to our history of spreading democracy around the world.

Charley Noble

Subject: RE: BS: Fawning Germans
From: Little Hawk
Date: 28 Jul 08 - 11:43 PM

Yeah, and that's just the tip of the iceberg. Many thousands of Filipinos were murdered and tortured by the American forces and were put in concentration camps for nothing else than having the same aspirations for national independence and self-government that the Americans are so proud of having had themselves in 1776.

The same kind of thing happened to the Vietnamese, who should have been given their independence in 1945. If they had been, there'd have been no Vietnam War.

The French should have left. The Americans should never have gone in. Vietnam was betrayed by the Allies after WWII, just like the Phillipines and Cuba were betrayed by the USA after the Spanish-American War.

Why? Because Great Powers behave as Great Powers. They do what is good for them, not for the indigenous populations in the small countries where they send their conquering armies. Empire is empire, and it knows no rule but its own hunger for dominion over the Earth and the Earth's resources.

Subject: RE: BS: Fawning Germans
From: Ernest
Date: 29 Jul 08 - 07:25 AM

Leadbelly,

by claiming that Mrs. Merkel is fawning Bush you prove McCains/Bounds remark, that Obama did meet fawning Germans (at least 1).

Furthermore according to your own standards this would be an insult to Mrs. Merkel - which gives proof to my point that insults like that are far to common to make a fuzz about it.

Nevertheless you may take this posting as my sincere protest...;0)

Best
Ernest

Subject: RE: BS: Fawning Germans
From: GUEST,DV
Date: 29 Jul 08 - 09:42 AM

Well, if people believe this 'war on terror' imperial war is the first one conducted by the US government, then we have very poorly informed voters who are a sucker for anything.

Add those (Phillipines, Korea, Vietnam, Afghanistan, Iraq) to the covert wars in Central and South America using proxy paramilitaries and government forces alongside our CIA (El Salvador, Nicaragua, Guatemala, Columbia, Chile, Panama, Haiti, Argentina, Cuba), and you have quite a long list of imperial US military adventurism.

Anyone who believes Barack Obama will 'break the mold' of US imperial presidents isn't paying attention.

Subject: RE: BS: Fawning Germans
From: GUEST,Jack the Sailor
Date: 29 Jul 08 - 09:47 AM

"Anyone who believes Barack Obama will 'break the mold' of US imperial presidents isn't paying attention."

That is a bit much to ask. I'd settle for looking before he leaps.

Subject: RE: BS: Fawning Germans
From: Little Hawk
Date: 29 Jul 08 - 09:57 AM

My feeling is that if Obama tried to stop the imperial engine he would soon find that he could not stop it and he would be in great peril of losing his own life if he tried to.

Yes, DV, the list of imperial wars launched by the USA is a very long one. Most of them have been covert wars, the majority of those in Latin America, a region which the USA has regarded as its private fiefdom ever since the Monroe Doctrine.

Subject: RE: BS: Fawning Germans
From: GUEST,DV
Date: 29 Jul 08 - 10:02 AM

And repeats the behavior, and leaps anyway? How does that reassure you?

Obama's stated policy positions on the war between Israel and the Palestinians is abysmal, as his trip to the Middle East proved beyond a doubt.

His stated policy positions on the so-called 'war on terror' is to move troops from Iraq to Afghanistan, not remove them from the area and bring them home. So that will be a continuation of the imperial wars in the Middle East, where the US invaded two coutries without being attacked by either.

And before any one says that Bin Laden was operating from Afhanistan, let it be known he was also operating from Pakistan--one of our great nuclear allies in the region--and no sanctions have ever been placed on Pakistan, much less military action taken to pursue Al Qaida there.

The biggest, most dangerous unknown quantity right now is what Obama will do regarding Iran. Here too, the US imperial covert wars never get mentioned--the Iran-Iraq war, the propping up of the Shah with our CIA operations, etc.

No, neither McCain or Obama will change the direction of US foreign policy, and anyone who believes one or the other of them will has their head buried in the sand.

Subject: RE: BS: Fawning Germans
From: GUEST,DV
Date: 29 Jul 08 - 10:15 AM

I disagree that any major party presidential candidate who doesn't tow the imperial line is unelectable.

I find that position untenable, and cowardly in a way that props up status quo thinking.

I'm not saying that a US president will ever come out and apologize for the US' imperial militarism of the last couple of centuries. We shouldn't leave the imperial wars against the North American native peoples and the enslavement of Africans brought to the US in this either.

But one day in the not too distant future, we will have a US president who will be faced with either maintaining the military industrial complex, or maintaining the nation itself.

And in a strange, ironic way, we do have George W Bush to thank by potentially speeding that process up. The increases in military spending, and busting of the US government's budget for maintaining it's own infrastructures, will have an impact for generations to come.

Which makes the likelihood of a US president being elected in my lifetime (ie, within the next 30-40 years) that so drastically reduces US military adventurism and the military budget, that the nation is no longer any more of a military 'superpower' than any European nation, Russia, or China.

Our governments (Europe, China, Russia, US) have created a military industrial complex that financially is unsustainable. Just like with the energy crisis staring us in the face, we are soon to face the same crisis in military sustainability. Don't forget what fuel the military runs on, and what fuels are used to build all that hardware and move it around the globe.

Subject: RE: BS: Fawning Germans
From: GUEST,Jack the Sailor
Date: 29 Jul 08 - 10:16 AM

I believe both will be a big change from Bush.

Obama seems to me to be similar to Bush 41 in foreign policy. I think that he has taken the "Powell Doctrine" to heart. He may engage in adventure, but would not be nearly as wasteful with lives and treasure as Bush 43.

I think that McCain will analyze military options much more than Bush did. But I also think that he might take bigger risks for bigger rewards. The desperation of his campaign at this early point indicates that he may not be as prudent as I would like.

Subject: RE: BS: Fawning Germans
From: Amos
Date: 29 Jul 08 - 10:17 AM

Fortunately, not everyone agrees with DV's profoundly pessimistic view of things.


A

Subject: RE: BS: Fawning Germans
From: Little Hawk
Date: 29 Jul 08 - 10:41 AM

Your post of 10:15 AM is an interesting one, DV. You may be right in what you say. All aggressive empires eventually overreach themselves and have to reduce or even abandon their imperial ambitions. It's the nature of the Beast. It lives by devouring others, but eventually it devours too much and gets ill....or it simply runs out of available food sources...or the others band together and destroy it.

Subject: RE: BS: Fawning Germans
From: GUEST,DV
Date: 29 Jul 08 - 01:10 PM

Apologies for the typos today, I've had an eye exam with pupils dilated so I'm not exactly seeing straight!

Energy is what will cut down on all nations military adventurism. The one true blessing of the energy crisis is that it won't make distinctions between industries that must die.

I really believe the ability to foresee this is generational. I know of very few boomers who have even considered the possibility of the US military running out of gas. Yet, boomer political leaders know it full well, and have been conducting foreign policy accordingly, hence the era of wars for oil.

Iraq won't be the last, either. There are other energy giants like Mexico, Venezuela, Nigeria, etc. and all those nations do not currently kow tow to the US.

We'll see quite a bit more of that in the very near future, and the great irony of it all is--the wars for oil will run the world out of oil faster than converting an imperial superpower military industrial economy (which is what the US is and has been since the late 19th century) to a peacetime green economy will, and cost humanity far, far more than the peaceful conversion to a sustainable mixed economy, with both socialized/nationalized industries and private industries that aren't based upon consumer capitalism of the past.

The victory of imperial consumer capitalism over communism and mixed socialism/sustainable capitalism in the 1980s hasn't been all it's cracked up to be for the people of the planet or the planet.

In fact, from the way it is looking now, it looks like the 1980s was already too late to do anything to pull back from the brink of climate change.

Subject: RE: BS: Fawning Germans
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 29 Jul 08 - 02:30 PM

Nobody seems to have mentioned the series of successful wars which enabled what had been a relatively small strip to conquer territory across the whole continent of North America.

People often talk about imperialism as if it was about ruling far distant countries around the world, but that's a historically atypical type of imperialism. The American model in which boundaries are extended by taking over the land of neighbours has been the much more common kind.

Subject: RE: BS: Fawning Germans
From: beardedbruce
Date: 29 Jul 08 - 02:39 PM

HEY!

In the case of the Louisianna Purchase and Alaska, we paid CASH.


The US does NOT only expand through warfare.

Subject: RE: BS: Fawning Germans
From: GUEST,DV
Date: 29 Jul 08 - 02:44 PM

Hello McGrath,

I did mention Panama, but there is still a considerable list of countries I didn't mention specifically the US has invaded/occupied or been at war with either directly or by proxy, including Grenada, post-WWII occupations in Europe and the Pacific Rim, etc.

Subject: RE: BS: Fawning Germans
From: GUEST,DV
Date: 29 Jul 08 - 02:48 PM

And to whom did the US government pay cash?

Not the native peoples who had inhabited the land for a millenia or two!

Subject: RE: BS: Fawning Germans
From: beardedbruce
Date: 29 Jul 08 - 03:08 PM

"Not the native peoples who had inhabited the land for a millenia or two! "


Who also stole it from the earlier inhabitants.

The Aborigines in Aus. MAY be the only population that still resides in it's original area ( thought I believe they migrated there, it was not inhabited beforehand.)


Hmm. the Esquimaux ( driven into fringe areas by later migration) and the Terra del Feugo people might also claimed to be original inhabitants...

But even the Celts invaded a populated land and drove off the original owners.

As did the Franks, Saxons, Russ, etc.

Subject: RE: BS: Fawning Germans
From: Little Hawk
Date: 29 Jul 08 - 03:39 PM

Yeah, it's a sad business. People with superior military power have been stealing land and resources from other people for as long as history has been recorded.

One reason that many Indian tribes allied with the Whites was to get back at other Indian tribes who were traditional enemies. In Mexico, for example, virtually all the other Indians allied with the Spanish to fight the Aztecs...little realizing that the Spanish would turn out to be even worse than the Aztecs once they took over.

(Not that the Aztecs were any fun to have as neighbours! They were a vicious empire.)

Subject: RE: BS: Fawning Germans
From: Ernest
Date: 29 Jul 08 - 04:19 PM

Actually I think the USA is the only country which bought vast parts of their territory.

Some countries might have got a bit by marriage, but the majority just conquered foreign lands. As LH pointed out this also applies to indigenous people.

Regards
Ernest

Subject: RE: BS: Fawning Germans
From: GUEST,DV
Date: 29 Jul 08 - 04:35 PM

Right, but I'm stuck trying to figure out who was in North America before the indigenous peoples of North America.

Fawning Germans?

Subject: RE: BS: Fawning Germans
From: beardedbruce
Date: 29 Jul 08 - 04:44 PM

Look at the waves of American immigration ( from about 100,000 years ago to today). Most were groups driven out of Asia/Europe by others who crossed the Bering Straits, driving the previous groups ( that ended up being pushed North ( Esquimaux) and South (Terra del Fuagans) , and in turn being pushed by the next wave into new areas. NOBODY is where they started.

http://www.amnh.org/science/biodiversity/extinction/Intro/HumanMigration.html

Subject: RE: BS: Fawning Germans
From: beardedbruce
Date: 29 Jul 08 - 04:46 PM

http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2007/10/071025160653.htm

Subject: RE: BS: Fawning Germans
From: pdq
Date: 29 Jul 08 - 05:41 PM

anthropology:

    The science of man, including the study of the distribution
    of physical and cultural attributes in relation to man's
    origin, location, history, and environment; -- sometimes
    used in a limited sense to mean the study of man as an
    object of natural history, or as an animal.
       {1913 Webster}


Well, there is one thing certain about anthropology: it is not much of a science. No two anthropologists agree exactly on very much and all have their prejudices mixed, to varying degrees, in their conclusions.

I have read several books, including compilations, about the origin of North American natives. My best guess is that eastern US tribes like the Delaware, Mohawk and Cherokee (of which I am 1/16) are all Caucasian and have European roots, although ancient.

The Eskimo are people who were kicked out of the islands now known as Japan, and are relatively recent. The far-north tribes in Alaska and Canada came over the top of the planet from Siberia and are similar to many people from the Holarctic region.

South of the US are people who are Proto-Australian, a group whose ancestors are extinct .They once ruled some of the Pacific islands and Australia, but were driven out by aggressive immigration by newer tribes from Africa and Asia Minor.

Subject: RE: BS: Fawning Germans
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 29 Jul 08 - 05:43 PM

The point is not that there's something unique about the expansion of the United States, but quite the other way round, that it's an instance example of a widespread aspect of human history in which what have generally been referred to as "empires" have been assembled by a process of expansion through various methods - conquest, dynastic marriage, treaty, purchase.

There's no justification for restricting the terms "empire" and "imperialism" to the relatively unusual far-flung variety, typified by the British Empire.

Subject: RE: BS: Fawning Germans
From: GUEST,DV
Date: 29 Jul 08 - 07:44 PM

Fascinating how those anthropological accounts give either European or Australian origins to native peoples of the Americas.

Except, I don't think so.

If we want to go back as far as the origins go, there is no evidence except either China or Africa.

Pick yer poison.

That said, to claim the indigenous peoples of the Americas are indigenous is just pure racism, IMO.

Sorry to throw that gauntlet, but your cultural arguments about natives in the Americas has a very EurAm anthro bullshit ring to it.

Please remember, anthropology is a *social* (not hard) science of the imperial colonizers, and they make "theoretical" claims that cannot be substantiated, but that put their cultures on top and in charge of the rest of the world. Meaning no one is "native" but them.

Subject: RE: BS: Fawning Germans
From: GUEST,DV
Date: 29 Jul 08 - 08:12 PM

Correction: should read "...to claim the indigenous peoples of the Americas are NOT indigenous..."

Subject: RE: BS: Fawning Germans
From: GUEST,Jack the Sailor
Date: 29 Jul 08 - 08:24 PM

Main Entry:
in·dig·e·nous
Pronunciation:
\in-ˈdi-jə-nəs\
Function:
adjective
Etymology:
Late Latin indigenus, from Latin indigena, noun, native, from Old Latin indu, endo in, within + Latin gignere to beget — more at end-, kin
Date:
1646
1 : having originated in and being produced, growing, living, or occurring naturally in a particular region or environment [indigenous plants] [the indigenous culture]
2 : innate, inborn

Is it fair to say that the ancestors of native people migrated to the land thousands of years ago and their descendants are indigenous? Having originated (been born) in a region, been produced there, occurring naturally(?) there?

Does not New Orleans have an indigenous culture?

Subject: RE: BS: Fawning Germans
From: pdq
Date: 29 Jul 08 - 08:33 PM

"Is it fair to say that the ancestors of native people migrated to the land thousands of years ago and their descendants are indigenous?"

Sounds about right to me. Not sure what recently-arrived GUEST has a problem with. Seems to want to yell "racism!" at every available opportunity, called for or not.

Subject: RE: BS: Fawning Germans
From: GUEST,DV
Date: 29 Jul 08 - 08:36 PM

Are the peoples of India natives? How about the Phillipines?

Or Pakistan?

Or Crete?

You see the problem, when you start to extrapolate this? Who would claim the peoples of Crete aren't indigenous or native?

Answer: someone with an ax to grind who wants either their land or resources or both. Which is why the English always claim the Celtic peoples aren't natives to the islands--but they are?

Subject: RE: BS: Fawning Germans
From: GUEST,DV
Date: 29 Jul 08 - 08:38 PM

pdq, you can have a look at my posting history. I think you will find I do NOT cry racism.

Subject: RE: BS: Fawning Germans
From: Charley Noble
Date: 29 Jul 08 - 08:39 PM

If I were sent back to my country of national origin, one quarter of my body would go to Lithuania, one quarter to Rumania, one quarter to Hungary, and the other quarter would end up as chopped meat in California, needing to be redistributed to various parts of the UK (for lack of a better term).

I was born in Maine but my parents were not, which makes me an "inside-outsider" to the long term natives. "Just because a cat has kittens in the oven, doesn't make the kittens biscuits!"

Cheerily,
Charley Noble

Subject: RE: BS: Fawning Germans
From: Charley Noble
Date: 30 Jul 08 - 09:10 AM

Subject: RE: BS: Fawning Germans
From: GUEST,Karl Jaspers
Date: 30 Jul 08 - 10:43 PM

Belief, delusion, or hallucination?

In my learned opinion, I would say transcendance no, secondary delusion maybe.

Achsenzeit!