BS: Israel's Sharpville

Subject: RE: BS: Israel's Sharpville
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 10 May 18 - 06:19 AM

Yup.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel's Sharpville
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 10 May 18 - 06:20 AM

Yup, David, is what I meant. Grr, Iains...

Subject: RE: BS: Israel's Sharpville
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 10 May 18 - 06:38 AM

This is becoming sabre rattling of the worst kind being advocated now
Israel is backing Trump over Iran, as it always has done (you defend my atrocities- I'll defend yours).
Suggesting Israel's actions are in any way altruistic or in support of peace is nonsense
Israel's behaviour is every bit as likely to end up in a nuclear weapon competition as is that of Iran and far less dangerous that Isis, who appears to be on the wane.
Isis doesn't have a nuclear facility, Iran at least agreed with Obama to negotiate on their control - Israel never has - the man who informed the world of their existence in the Middle East (an international hero) was abducted by Mossad agents in Rome and has been incarcerated for thirty two years (a large part of that time in solitary confinement) for telling the world what it needed to know.
Israel is far more secretive about these weapons of mass destruction and far less likely than any other nuclear power to negotiate their control - bad enough for any State, but one driven by religious zealotry - deadly
The world needs a holy war like it needs an international outbreak of Bubonic plague
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Israel's Sharpville
From: Iains
Date: 10 May 18 - 06:41 AM

I think Israel realises time is limited for her dreams of territorial expansion and regional dominance. The sun is setting on American empire, new powers are arising in the east. Russia and Europe are rising powers. Trumps denial of the Iran deal has opened a huge schism with Europe, the trade implications for EU companies subject to Trumps threatened Iranian embargo have yet to be realised and will turn the schism into a huge gulf. People forget that in the early 70's Iran was a dream ticket posting. When I lived in Singapore many of my colleagues had come from Iran and were reluctant to leave even to come to Singapore. How times do change! Think how much change another 50 years will bring. That is not to mention India. I have seen many Indians as doctors, lawyers, shop owners etc. but have never seen one digging a hole in the road. Like the Chinese they value education highly and will be/are an economic force to be reckoned with. The geopolitical map will change dramatically and those changes are taking embryonic shape now. The population density, governance, economic pressure, religious rivalries, ethnic antagonisms and resource competition, increasing aridity and water wars make the middle east a powder keg with Israel being the touchpaper.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel's Sharpville
From: bobad
Date: 10 May 18 - 08:05 AM

I think Israel realises time is limited for her dreams of territorial expansion and regional dominance

I think Iran realises time is limited for her dreams of territorial expansion and regional dominance

FIXED

Subject: RE: BS: Israel's Sharpville
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 10 May 18 - 08:10 AM

Still no original ideas then bobad?

Subject: RE: BS: Israel's Sharpville
From: Iains
Date: 10 May 18 - 08:22 AM

Bobad I guess history is not your strongest subject. Stay around long enough you may learn something.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel's Sharpville
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 10 May 18 - 08:42 AM

Personally, I find myself growingly indebted to Keith and Bobad's assistance in providing us with an example of Israel's contemptuous attitude towards other nations and their right to existence
Beats anything you could pick up from the Media, especially as, like Myanmar, the world seems to be alloowing the extremists to get on with their extremism without having to worry about public opinion getting in the way
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Israel's Sharpville
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 10 May 18 - 08:48 AM

I think Israel realises time is limited for her dreams of territorial expansion

Huh? You think it wants to expand into Syria or Lebanon?
Why would anyone believe anything so ludicrous.
It only kept the Golan because Syria had always used it to rain shells onto Israeli farms and kibbutzes.

Iran is operating in Iraq, Syria, Lebanon and Yemen, and "has repeatedly called for an end to the existence of the Jewish state." (BBC)
Israel is justified in defending itself, as our government stated today.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel's Sharpville
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 10 May 18 - 09:03 AM

"Why would anyone believe anything so ludicrous."

well... so many educated, seemingly intelligent, folks believe in such beyond ludicrous ideas as gods and astrology..

.. so anything is possible...!!!???

Subject: RE: BS: Israel's Sharpville
From: Iains
Date: 10 May 18 - 09:15 AM

Israel has already taken over the Golan heights in defiance of the UN and I do not believe there are any stop signs on the border. Even our gullible PM with a degree in history from Oxford cannot understand how ridiculous her earlier statement was:
"Theresa May today condemned Iran's attack on Israel after the first direct clashes between the two countries.
Downing Street said Tel Aviv had 'every right to defend itself' after Tehran's forces fired 20 rockets from Syria into the Golan Heights.
The PM also urged Russia to step in and ensure Syrian territory was not used for any more strikes.
'We condemn Iran's attack on Israel,' the spokesman said. 'Israel has every right to defend itself,' the premier's spokesman said." Daily Mail

Israel attacks Syrian positions because Syria and her allies attack an illegal airbase on Syrian territory! and our ridiculous PM cannot work out how insane her statement is.

What a shambolic incompetant ignorant piece of mendacity. Corbyn should force her to apologise for misleading the house.
I would be calling for her resignation only Boris the buffoon is more of an idiot.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel's Sharpville
From: Iains
Date: 10 May 18 - 09:18 AM

That should of course be a degree in Geography, though history may well help! This rather compound her error!

Subject: RE: BS: Israel's Sharpville
From: David Carter (UK)
Date: 10 May 18 - 09:59 AM

Yes Iains. I don't always agree with you on here, but you are spot on regarding this one. Until all of the countries in the regions agree to respect the pre-1967 borders, the problems won't be solved.

As far as Yemen is concerned, the Houthi have as much right to be considered the legitimate government as anybody, and more right than the Hadi regime, which is propped up by ISIS, al-Quaeda and Saudi Arabia with the connivance of the USA and the UK.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel's Sharpville
From: bobad
Date: 10 May 18 - 10:05 AM

None of Iran’s rockets hit Israeli territory, four rockets were intercepted by the Iron Dome system and the rest landed on Syrian territory. Meanwhile Israel took out more than fifty Iranian targets. Iran will need more practice if it wants to wipe Israel off the map.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel's Sharpville
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 10 May 18 - 10:11 AM

" so many educated, seemingly intelligent, folks"
Even the "decent, democratic ones"
AS I have been told many times stop feeding the animals
Jim

Subject: RE: BS: Israel's Sharpville
From: Iains
Date: 10 May 18 - 11:00 AM

Bobad I find it hard that anyone, including the most gullible of sycophants, attach any credence to claims of strikes and counter strikes.
Ever since the The British Royal Naval Air Service (RNAS) undertook the first Entente strategic bombing missions on 22 September 1914 the true mission results have been obscured by the fog of war. In less polite circles this is simply termed lying(on an epic scale)
To be honest would betray too much to too many in the way of strategic secrets.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel's Sharpville
From: Iains
Date: 10 May 18 - 11:13 AM

Military speak as opposed to normal people speak. Well worth studying in the world of today!

https://www.globalresearch.ca/smart-weapons-systems-are-we-being-misguided-about-precision-strikes/5493560

Subject: RE: BS: Israel's Sharpville
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 10 May 18 - 11:14 AM

Israel has already taken over the Golan heights in defiance of the UN

It took some of it in the 1967 war to stop the Syrians using it to shell Israel. They have taken no more since so dreams of expansion is a ridiculous claim. The Syrian army was in full flight but Israel stopped anyway.

They took much of Egypt at the same time, then gave it all back in exchange for peace. (Dreams of expansion?)
Syria is still at war with Israel having never rescinded its declaration of war.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel's Sharpville
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 10 May 18 - 11:23 AM

Israeli Expansionism ...

An all out offensive on taking over Europe...

Subject: RE: BS: Israel's Sharpville
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 10 May 18 - 11:30 AM

PLEASE DO NOT OPEN THIS IF FACTS OFFEND YOU
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Israel's Sharpville
From: bobad
Date: 10 May 18 - 11:38 AM

Since 77% of the land originally granted to the Jewish people for their homeland was taken away from them and given to Arabs and Gaza has also been given away by Israel I would say that Israel is shrinking and not expanding.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel's Sharpville
From: Iains
Date: 10 May 18 - 11:41 AM

For Keef.
https://www.middleeastmonitor.com/20170531-israeli-expansionist-colonial-settlements-are-and-always-have-been-illegal/

Interestingly Israel attacked first. I wonder how much prominence that will be given?

"The Syrian Observatory for Human Rights, a UK-based monitoring group, confirmed that rockets were fired towards the occupied Golan. But it said the attack came after Israeli forces bombarded Baath, a town in the demilitarised zone."

Subject: RE: BS: Israel's Sharpville
From: David Carter (UK)
Date: 10 May 18 - 12:08 PM

In case anyone else is as totally bemused by bobad's post as I am, I think what he is referring to is this (from Wikipedia):

"In March 1921, the Colonial Secretary Winston Churchill visited Jerusalem and following a discussion with Emir Abdullah, it was agreed that the Jewish National Home objective for the proposed Palestinian Mandate territory would not apply to the Mandate territory east of the Jordan River. In accordance with that agreement, the Churchill White Paper of June 3, 1922, stated explicitly that "the terms of the [Balfour] Declaration referred to do not contemplate that Palestine as a whole should be converted into a Jewish National Home, but that such a Home should be founded 'in Palestine'."

It was never intended that Transjordan should be part of Israel, not even by the British.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel's Sharpville
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 10 May 18 - 12:10 PM

Iains, everyone knows that Israel has settlers on the West Bank.
Is that all you meant by "dreams of territorial expansion?"
It has held the West Bank for 51 years!

The West Bank situation has no relevance to the conflict between Iran and Israel.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel's Sharpville
From: David Carter (UK)
Date: 10 May 18 - 12:29 PM

Keith, the West Bank situation is extremely relevant when considering all conficts in this region. Israel's refusal to withdraw from the West Bank and dismantle the settlements is the very heart of the problem. And the very reason why Israel gets so little support from people such as me in a forum such as this. A peace based upon the pre-1967 borders would be very viable.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel's Sharpville
From: Iains
Date: 10 May 18 - 12:30 PM

No relevance at all apart from a flagrant disregard for international law in both cases. But then, when has that ever dissuaded the Israeli government?
They will get a shock when the rest of the world gets fed up with their contempt for the law.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel's Sharpville
From: bobad
Date: 10 May 18 - 12:38 PM

According to Jacques Gauthier, an expert in international law, “The San Remo resolutions adopted by the Principal Allied Powers on April 25, 1920, established the territorial rights of the Jewish People under international law in respect to Palestine. The sovereignty entitlements granted by the historic San Remo Conference of 1920 remain in force to support the legal claims to the lands for the State of Israel and the Jewish People. Regardless of what may be negotiated by the parties involved in the territorial Israeli-Palestinian conflict, the starting point must be what is historically true in international law.”

The Arab state of Trans-Jordan was established by the British government in 1921, within the boundaries of the Palestine Mandate that was originally allotted for the Jewish National Home, and the Council of the League of Nations approved the partition of Palestine in 1922. Gauthier says that Israel arguably relinquished its claim over areas of Palestine east of the Jordan River, when it signed a peace treaty with Jordan in 1994. But he points out that the remaining lands west of the Jordan River remain the property of the Jewish People under international law.

http://www.cjnews.com/perspectives/forgotten-history-gained-san-remo

See also Palestine, Uti Possidetis Juris and the Borders of Israel

Subject: RE: BS: Israel's Sharpville
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 10 May 18 - 12:43 PM

"Since 77% of the land originally granted to the Jewish people for their homeland was taken away from them and given to Arabs and Gaza "
Wonder why the Father of Israel, David Ben Gurion said:
"If I were an Arab leader, I would never sign an agreement with Israel. It is normal; we have taken their country. It is true God promised it to us, but how could that interest them? Our God is not theirs. There has been Anti - Semitism, the Nazis, Hitler, Auschwitz, but was that their fault ? They see but one thing: we have come and we have stolen their country. Why would they accept that?"
"Under no circumstances must we touch land belonging to fellahs or worked by them. Only if a fellah leaves his place of settlement, should we offer to buy his land, at an appropriate price."
Before our pet atrocity denier denies that Ben Gurion said this,
Ben Gurion said this in an it was from a ninterview he gave to Nahum Goldman a leading Zionist and the founder and longtime president of the World Jewish Congress.

He also said

"Let us not ignore the truth among ourselves ... politically we are the aggressors and they defend themselves... The country is theirs, because they inhabit it, whereas we want to come here and settle down, and in their view we want to take away from them their country.

A confession, if I ever saw one
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Israel's Sharpville
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 10 May 18 - 12:55 PM

David, Iran rejects Israel's right to exists with or without its settlements, so they are not relevant to this particular conflict.

Iains,
No relevance at all apart from a flagrant disregard for international law in both cases.

Presumably the occupation of much of Cyprus by Turkey, Tibet by China, and Japanese islands by Russia are also in flagrant disregard for international law.

Not sure about the occupation and settlement of Texas and California.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel's Sharpville
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 10 May 18 - 12:58 PM

"Jacques Gauthier"
Canadian Lawyer, connected to and quoted widely by the Israel Defense Network
His life's work has been devoted to a thesis proving the legitimacy of the Jewish claim to Jerusalem under international law"
Another unbiased opinion then Bobad !!
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Israel's Sharpville
From: Iains
Date: 10 May 18 - 01:00 PM

"According to Jacques Gauthier, an expert in international law."
Pay him enough money and I am sure you can have the answer you want. Do lawyers have any morals?

Subject: RE: BS: Israel's Sharpville
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 10 May 18 - 01:01 PM

"Iran rejects Israel's right to exists with or without its settlements,"
Israel wants to ethnically cleanse the Palestinians out of their seized homeland
Reckon that makes the situation a stalemate then
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Israel's Sharpville
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 10 May 18 - 01:29 PM

Israel wants to ethnically cleanse the Palestinians out of their seized homeland

No they don't.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel's Sharpville
From: beardedbruce
Date: 10 May 18 - 01:37 PM

Hey, JC

No comment about the ACTUAL ethnically cleaning out of the Jews and PALESTINIAN Christians from the West bank from 1948 to 1967, when it was under Arab control as a conquered territory?


Thought not.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel's Sharpville
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 10 May 18 - 01:43 PM

Just wondering how many conflicts ever got resolved by dwelling on the distant past
and competing to apportion blame...?????????

Subject: RE: BS: Israel's Sharpville
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 10 May 18 - 01:47 PM

"No comment about the ACTUAL ethnically cleaning out of the Jews and PALESTINIAN Christians from the West bank from 1948 to 1967,"
Been there done that Bruce - so has Israeli Historian Benny Morris, who described the slaughter of Arabs and the massacres that were taking place in order to create an ethnically clean state from the very beginning
You are not still pretending to support the Jewish People after having refused to comment on Keith's antisemitism and describing Israel's dealing with fascist states and and Nazi organisations (including's antisemite twinkle in the KKK's eye, Donald the Trumpeter) as "the lesser of two evils"?
Some people have more face than Mount Rushmore
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Israel's Sharpville
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 10 May 18 - 01:49 PM

Israeli Historian Benny Morris, who described the slaughter of Arabs and the massacres that were taking place in order to create an ethnically clean state from the very beginning

Not true Jim.
Quote him why don't you?

Subject: RE: BS: Israel's Sharpville
From: bobad
Date: 10 May 18 - 02:05 PM

Another unbiased opinion then Bobad !!

It's the legal opinion, based on International Law, of an academic with a PhD in International Law. If you can show it to be biased I welcome your critique.

Here's another opinion from Eugene Kontorovich, a world renown expert on International Law:

Palestine, Uti Possidetis Juris,And The Borders of Israel


Eugene Kontorovich Bio

Professor Eugene Kontorovich teaches at Northwestern University School of Law. He specializes in constitutional law, federal courts, and public international law. He is one of the world’s preeminent experts on universal jurisdiction and maritime piracy, as well as international law and the Israel-Arab conflict.

Prof. Kontorovich has published over thirty major scholarly articles and book chapters in leading law reviews and peer-reviewed journals in the United States and Europe, including the American Journal of International Law, International Review of Law & Economics, Stanford Law Review, California Law Review, University of Pennsylvania Law Review, Virginia Law Review, and many more. His scholarship has been cited in leading foreign relations and international law cases in the U.S. federal courts and abroad.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel's Sharpville
From: beardedbruce
Date: 10 May 18 - 02:21 PM

JC,

I was talking about the West Bank, where ethnic cleansing ACTUALLY did take place under the Arabs from 1948 to 1967.

You seem fine with that- YOU think it must be OK to cleanse Jews from places they have lived for thousands of years, Like Iran and the Arab League nations, so why not from the West Bank?

For anyone who says: "many conflicts ever got resolved by dwelling on the distant past" TRY to remember that the PALESTINIANS are the ones demanding a reversion to 1948 borders - Pre-1967 means post-1948 war truce lines. So are those truce lines distant past that should be ignored, or iron-bound law?

Subject: RE: BS: Israel's Sharpville
From: beardedbruce
Date: 10 May 18 - 02:30 PM

How about we go back to the Mandate Palestine border of 1923?

THAT can be all of Israel. The Arabs can keep the rest.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel's Sharpville
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 10 May 18 - 02:33 PM

Bruce - For purpose of debate - I'll adopt the standpoint of youth and idealism [even though I'll be 60 later this year...???]

These pre-existing truce lines may or may not have served a purpose in their day,
but conflict resolution should look to achieving compromise and agreement on mutually acceptable present and future needs ...


[written in a hurry as wife is yelling impatiently that the pizza's been delivered..
I'm away for 2 hours of Eurovivision semi final]

Subject: RE: BS: Israel's Sharpville
From: beardedbruce
Date: 10 May 18 - 02:42 PM

PFR,

"These pre-existing truce lines may or may not have served a purpose in their day,
but conflict resolution should look to achieving compromise and agreement on mutually acceptable present and future needs ..."


I AGREE. Israel has always said exactly this- ONLY the Palestinian side has demanded a reversion to the post-1948 lines, and refused to negotiate, BECAUSE they HAVE ethnically cleansed the West Bank from 1948 to 1967, they object to any Jews (Or Christians) returning to their homes there ( sound familiar- but if the Palestinians demand it, it is OK- Only Jewish refugees have no right of return according to JC.)

Subject: RE: BS: Israel's Sharpville
From: Iains
Date: 10 May 18 - 02:44 PM

Eurovision and pizza! Definitely living in the land of milk and honey.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel's Sharpville
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 10 May 18 - 03:29 PM

"I was talking about the West Bank, where ethnic cleansing ACTUALLY did take place under the Arabs from 1948 to 1967."
So am I
The Jewish leadership, even before the establishment of the state, made it clear that they didn't want to share the land with the Arabs - hence the hand-grenades thrown into Arab houses as the Brits steamed away from Palestine (as condemned by Einstein and his colleagues)
All this is history (largely of how the now dead Empire carved up the area to suit themselves)
My concern is for today's people, especially the "One in three refugees world wide is Palestinian. the "about 6.5 million Palestinian refugees worldwide of whom more than 3.8 million Palestinian refugees and their descendants displaced in 1948 are registered for humanitarian assistance with the United Nations."
I have litle interest in the sins of Kings, Queens, Emperors and Empresses who left a large slice of our planet a fucked-up mess - Israel being only one example

"Quote him why don't you?"
Why on earth should anybody wish to quote anything to you Keeith - what little you bother to read you dismiss as "all lies" is it doesn't fit your pro-ethnic cleansing agenda (even articles published in the Jerusalem Post)
Please let the adults get on with this argument and go and play somewhere
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Israel's Sharpville
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 11 May 18 - 04:51 AM

Jim,
Why on earth should anybody wish to quote anything to you Keeith - what little you bother to read

Which of his books have you read Jim.
I read his Israel's Secret Wars when it came up previously here.
I found that the Palestinian site you quoted on it lied about what he said. You had never read it at all.

"One in three refugees world wide is Palestinian. the "about 6.5 million Palestinian refugees worldwide of whom more than 3.8 million Palestinian refugees and their descendants displaced in 1948 are registered for humanitarian assistance with the United Nations."

The reason for that is shameful. In 1948 there were Jewish and Arab refugees, but far more Jewish than Arab.
Israel settled all the Jewish ones on their tiny sliver of land, but the vast Arab nations refused to settle any of the Arabs, denying them citizenship rights and confining them to camps to the present day.
That is why there are so many, mostly just descendants of the actual refugees.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel's Sharpville
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 11 May 18 - 05:20 AM

Keith your constant repetition of idiotic excuses (the silence of democratic countries - give us a break) coupled with your refusal to discuss the points others offer make you a permanent obstacle to intelligent discussion
I can argue with people who disagree - I can't wwith people whose technique is to ignore and repeat like a Dalek
You are like talking to Shirley Valentine's kitchen wall
There - that's my ration - too much as it was
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Israel's Sharpville
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 11 May 18 - 05:27 AM

So you have not read any of his books, and you have no reply to anything I have said.

your refusal to discuss the points others offer
Not true. State one thing I have refused to discuss.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel's Sharpville
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 11 May 18 - 06:36 AM

Please get off this thread and let the adults continue
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Israel's Sharpville
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 11 May 18 - 07:26 AM

No.
Sorry if you "adults" are incapable of arguing against me.
Your problem not mine.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel's Sharpville
From: bobad
Date: 11 May 18 - 07:41 AM

but the vast Arab nations refused to settle any of the Arabs

More the shame in that those very Arab nations created the refugees by making war Israel in the first place. But, hey, when you've got a good scam going that lets you live high on the hog on the world's largess..............