BS: Caliphate

Subject: RE: BS: Caliphate
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 10 Aug 14 - 07:55 AM

assist the Arab Spring protesters in the form of manpower

That sounds like invasion of Syria, which is what you specifically advocated at that time.

Subject: RE: BS: Caliphate
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 10 Aug 14 - 08:13 AM

"That sounds like invasion of Syria, which is what you specifically advocated at that time."
Where?
What I proposed is exactly what I said, which was what Cameron proposed which was what happened in Libya, which I gave as an example - piss off.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Caliphate
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 10 Aug 14 - 08:23 AM

"BEIRUT (AP) — A cleric read the verdict before the truck came and dumped a large pile of stones near the municipal garden"

Description of a hospital bombed by Israelis
Israel Bombs Gaza's Only Rehab Hospital: Staff Forced to Evacuate Paralyzed Patients After Shelling
DR. BASMAN ALASHI: Last night, just before 9:00, they sent us a warning over the phone that "We will bomb the hospital, so you need to evacuate." And we've been receiving these calls for the last 11 days, so we did not take that call, that issue and matter seriously, because of repeated calls from the Israeli forces that "We will bomb you, we will bomb you," but they haven't done anything. And we insisted that we cannot leave the hospital. Our patients are, all of them, paralyzed, unable—they're unconscious. They're unable to move, so we need to stay in this hospital. And this is the only rehabilitation hospital in Gaza and in the West Bank.
But just few minutes after the call, shells start falling down on the hospital—the fourth floor, third floor, second floor. Smoke, fire, dust all over. We lost electricity. Many of our nurses, they lost control of themselves. They were unable to stand up on their feet. They left the hospital. Patients were left alone, unknown what will happen to them. I was able to call many ambulances around the area, plus the fire department, and we were able to move all of them. Some of them needed an oxygen, so we have to wait until 11:00 until we receive that oxygen. So, the few patients that we have, luckily, nobody got hurt. Only burning building, smoke inside, dust, ceiling falling, wall broke, electricity cutoff, water is leaking everywhere. So, the hospital became [uninhabitable]. At that time, we said evacuation is much more healthier for the patients and for the nurses

EFFECTS OF WHITE PHOSPHORUS USED BY ISRAELIS
Hospitals across the Gaza Strip have reported increasing numbers of civilians with serious burns being admitted for emergency treatment, and the scale of injuries indicates that IOF are using these unidentified incinerating bombs to target civilians across the Gaza Strip. For example, on 10 January, 2009, residents of Khuza'a village, east of Khan Yunis, reported being attacked by IOF artillery shells which exploded into flames, dispersing shrapnel and dense white smoke that caused skin burns, suffocation, spasms and fainting. At least one hundred local civilians were injured by this IOF attack, including medical personnel who arrived at the scene. Civilians were subsequently admitted to hospitals in Khan Yunis, suffering from breathing difficulties and severe pains in their eyes.
VERMONTERS FOR PEACE IN PALESTINE
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Caliphate
From: akenaton
Date: 10 Aug 14 - 12:03 PM

Jim, surely even you can see that what happened in Libya was an absolute disaster.
Hague and Cameron should be indicted for grievous crimes against reason.

The removal from power and murder of Gadaffi was one of the biggest foreign policy blunders ever made.

Subject: RE: BS: Caliphate
From: Greg F.
Date: 10 Aug 14 - 12:15 PM

Stoning to death for the alleged adulteress.

And that, Boo, differs from electrocution, lethal injection, hanging & etc how exactly? You can answer in the capital punishment thread if you prefer.

Subject: RE: BS: Caliphate
From: bobad
Date: 10 Aug 14 - 01:11 PM

"And that, Boo, differs from electrocution, lethal injection, hanging & etc how exactly?"

And who does that for alleged adultery exactly?

Subject: RE: BS: Caliphate
From: bobad
Date: 10 Aug 14 - 01:15 PM

Oh and Greg, your attempts at establishing moral equivalences are becoming more and more pathetic....I suggest you give it a rest.

Subject: RE: BS: Caliphate
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 10 Aug 14 - 01:46 PM

"Hague and Cameron should be indicted for grievous crimes against reason."
You mean Gadaffi should have been left where he was, the West should have continued to continue to trade with him until he snuffed it then his son, who was being groomed by the west, would be able to fill daddy's shoes?
If you know anything about politics you know you can't leave things as they are in these situations - you assist and encourage in the hope that the situation improves - unfortunately, the history of all these countries has been that they have been used by colonials until they are no use, then have been discarded as being of no value anymore.
A follow-up to the civil war might have helped, but it didn't happen - doesn't mean that Gadaffi was worse or better, just the The Arab Spring offered a chance for improvement
What do you suggest is done about Syria, let Assad continue his slaughtering, wait till the dust settles and let him get his torture chambers up and running again, then allow him to return to the fold as the 'valued British Trading partner he and his predecessors always were?
Given what was happening in Homs, the responsibility was with the United Nations to step in, failing, the Western Democracies should have been there st stop the slaughter - the didn't, we blew it and the extremists took over - then spread, crating a world-wide problem.
Like all these situations, you've got to win hearts and minds as well as wars - in Libya we helped do one but not the other - result chaos.
In Syria, we did neither - result utter disaster.
Until the West starts recognising these as potential friends and trading partners instead of petrol pumps this will continue to happen.
Might as well join up with Israel and do what General Westmorland proposed for Vietnam - "bomb them back into the Stoneage".
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Caliphate
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 10 Aug 14 - 02:07 PM

Jim:

Re your post of 0823 am. Much exercised as to why you have headed an animadversion against the use of certain disagreeable forms of armament with the opening sentence of the report reproduced above about the woman stoned to death for alleged adultery. I cannot get my head around any possible connection. Some sort of elucidation would be welcome.

≈M≈

Subject: RE: BS: Caliphate
From: pdq
Date: 10 Aug 14 - 02:11 PM

about the quote from above and its attribution...


        General CURTIS E. LEMAY, Mission with LeMay: My Story, p. 565 (1965).

In an interview two years after the publication of this book, General LeMay said, "I never said we should bomb them back to the Stone Age. I said we had the capability to do it. I want to save lives on both sides."          — The Washington Post, October 4, 1968, p. A8.

Subject: RE: BS: Caliphate
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 10 Aug 14 - 03:00 PM

2Much exercised as to why you have headed an animadversion against the use of certain disagreeable forms of armament with the opening sentence of the report reproduced above about the woman stoned to death for alleged adultery. I cannot get my head around any possible connection."
The poster has made a point for a long time now of putting up quote after quot showing that Muslims are baddies and Jews and Christians are all goodies - my religions are better than yours - it seems to have become his raison d'etre - a can't actually remember him ever making any other kind.   
As he is one of the foremost in defending Israeli atrocities using just this technique, I assumed this posting had the same purpose and was pointing our that it cuts both ways.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Caliphate
From: Greg F.
Date: 10 Aug 14 - 03:26 PM

So says LeMay, PeeDee- the facts say otherwise.

Subject: RE: BS: Caliphate
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 10 Aug 14 - 04:54 PM

But, Jim; this is not primarily an Israel v Palestinians thread -- we have two of those running already -- but one about the Caliphate as a project. Surely the point of the stoned-to-death story was, that was what might be expected, if the Caliphate as proposed really took a hold, to happen over the whole region. Can't see it as any sort of comparable case to the enormities your pastes dealt with. So, I continue to think, more confusing than enlightening.

≈M≈

Subject: RE: BS: Caliphate
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 10 Aug 14 - 05:45 PM

"But, Jim; this is not primarily an Israel v Palestinians thread"
We've developed a situation where certain people use these threads however they choose util they get bogged down, then squeal "thread-drift".
So far on this thread Gaza has been mentioned 124 times, Palestine 245 times and Israel 485 times - suddenly its a problem...
Am I missing something here?
I have given my reasons.... and so to bed (if the conspiracy thriller's crap, that is!)
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Caliphate
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 11 Aug 14 - 01:43 AM

Yes, Jim. I am not denying, or even objecting to, the way the thread has drifted. Just pointing out that it has as a consequence two strands, the original & the drift. The paste you chose to head that post with belonged to the first; the main contents of the post to the second. So your claiming any sort of equivalence between the two elements was tendentious, provocative, & intentionally misleading: a blatant piece of inapplicable "wotaboutery"; implying that the violent stoning to death of a woman for what would not even be a legal offence in other parts of the world than that where these sort of objectionable regimes obtain is somehow equivalent to the use of weapons in a war situation which may be disproportionately deployed. I still fail to see any sort of equivalence of the sort you claim; and I think you are foolish to imply that any even exists.

I don't know whether you will get the point of my drawing attention to this incongruity. But I hope there are others who will.

≈M≈

Subject: RE: BS: Caliphate
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 11 Aug 14 - 03:37 AM

"So your claiming any sort of equivalence between the two elements was tendentious,"
Not when the intention of the poster is to represent one particular brand of extremism as being superior to another, as it has been from the beginning by this particular poster.
The problem with all these 'discussions'(sic) has been, from the beginning, that there has been no genuine attempt to discuss them, rather, it has been examples of defences of personal preferences.
Your "wotterboutery" is an inevitable consequence of this
You want to discuss Muslim extremism in context of its causes - fine, I've always been game for this - you want to just to throw up example after of example in order to present extremism as being 'Muslim' - expect counterbalance.
These subjects have become little more than diatribes of hate and intolerance and Booboo with his persistent drawing of examples from some of the most extreme sources, is one of the main culprits.
Not really prepared to sit on my hands while he turns these discussions into hate-fests, sorry, and all that.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Caliphate
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 11 Aug 14 - 04:30 AM

1. I know the accurate meaning of the word "decimate". Historically it means to kill one in ten, as Meyer says. I do not agree with him that the prevalence of ignorance makes ignorance wisdom. I said "decimate (or worse)". Any attempt to assert that there is a material difference between that and "decimate or worse" is a manifest stupidity. To exterminate a set of people is in many respects worse than killing one in ten of them. I was, therefore, right in what I said.

2. Yes, there are rules of war. Anyone who asserts that that is not so, or that that should not be so, is an actual or potential war criminal.

3. Whatever their religion, Isis are criminals. Their actions, not their religion, make them legitimate targets. The problem is how to stop them. No-one here has ever suggested that what Isis are doing is right or justified. What some have appeared to argue is that if not enough is done about Isis it somehow justifies Israel's (actual or alleged) war crimes. That is another manifest stupidity.

4. It might be interesting to examine whether the sources of Islam (see here - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Islamic_holy_books) - and as to the forms (yes, plural) of teh Quran see here: http://answering-islam.org/Nehls/tt1/tt4.html - including the Sunnah and the Hadith - do support the establishment by force of a caliphate and the "conversion" by force of those conquered.   I doubt whether any of us here are sufficient Islamic scholars or could in the available time become sufficient Islamic scholars to spread light, rather than heat, on that subject.

5. A side question would be the reliability of the text of the Quran. It is wholly unintelligent to assert that its form is divinely cast and certain in that there is no single text that predates Uthman's consolidation of previous texts.   

6. What is the best way to stop Isis? Previous US reliance on air power has largely led to disaster, or, over time, the worsening, in one way or another, of the situation, in many different places. Is a ground war likely to be more effective? The Nigerian experience with Boko Haram is a poor parallel because of the systematic weakening of the Nigerian army, over a considerable period, for political reasons - but the experience of ground forces in Afghanistan should worry those who want armies sent in.

Subject: RE: BS: Caliphate
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 11 Aug 14 - 05:38 AM

"it means to kill one in ten, as Meyer says. I do not agree with him that the prevalence of ignorance makes ignorance wisdom".
.,,.

I* do not agree that acceptance of the evolution of the meaning of a word to differ from its original meaning necessarily constitutes 'ignorance'. It is a familiar process with regard to much of our vocabulary. A nice point, one might think: by which I don't mean a pleasant one, but one with certain distinctions of meaning to be observed. I would suggest trying to trace the history of that word "nice", before inaccurately attributing opinions which they do not in fact hold to those who might just know better than oneself. I have mentioned before how much confidence I consider it would be appropriate to place in the linguistic & semantic opinions of Mr Bridge (or, as he would himself so courteously put it, "of Bridge".)

≈M≈


*[who am called Myer as it happens; it is generally regarded as a courtesy to get people's names correct; I always try to take care to do so myself]

Subject: RE: BS: Caliphate
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 11 Aug 14 - 08:12 AM

What I proposed is exactly what I said, which was what Cameron proposed

I supported that too Jim.
You me Bobad BB and Teribus were the only ones here who did.

Long before that you (alone) were advocating a Western invasion.

Subject: RE: BS: Caliphate
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 11 Aug 14 - 08:26 AM

Sorry, Myer, about your name. Your adoption of a conflation of the names of British Lion Films and Metro-Goldwyn-Mayer boggles my mind. I infer it indicates some conceit or other: something not alien to you.

Subject: RE: BS: Caliphate
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 11 Aug 14 - 08:31 AM

PS - every so often one still hears uses of "nice" that do to some extent reflect the first English uses.

Subject: RE: BS: Caliphate
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 11 Aug 14 - 08:36 AM

"I supported that too Jim."
No - Cameron proposed sending armed assistance, which you opposed and described as "fascism" and "warmongering" -
You supported selling him "riot control equipment because ""even democracies have to be able to maintain law and order".
Cameron's problem was that he sold ammunition to Assad, as well as riot control equipment, armoured cars, tear gas and water cannon which you supported
Two weeks into the Arab Spring protests he opened a massive arms sale aimed at some of the dictators under fire by the protesters - that nice Mr Cable said it was common policy, so we ca have more to look forward to in the future
In the middle of the Homs carnage one of Cameron's ministers declared that the the conflict must in no way interfere with future British trade - Rule Britannia, eh?
Never advocated invasion and how could you support anything long before as Britain never mentioned acting in any way until they put it to a vote in parliament - your nose must be ten times as long as Pinocchio Blair's by now
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Caliphate
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 11 Aug 14 - 08:42 AM

No - Cameron proposed sending armed assistance,
I think you made that up Jim, but he did support Obamas' proposed intervention over chemical weapons like You and I did.

Cameron's problem was that he sold ammunition to Assad,
No he did not.

In the middle of the Homs carnage one of Cameron's ministers declared that the the conflict must in no way interfere with future British trade - Rule Britannia, eh?
Made up.

Subject: RE: BS: Caliphate
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 11 Aug 14 - 08:52 AM

Thank you for apology, Richard. My Californian relations do spell it Mayer: & in fact Louis B Mayer of MGM was my 1st cousin twice removed, ie my paternal grandfather's first cousin. So my initials, and the use I put them to for my current Mudcat name, are not entirely adventitious. Sorry if you got confused.

I suppose that means that delectable Judy Garland must have been some sort of mistress-in-law of mine. & much good may that do me!

I wasn't thinking of British Lion, but of the creature who always gives those three "Grr·ROARrr·Rrr!'s at the beginning of all Cousin Louis's films.

FWIW, the only one I have actually met is my [can't work out how
many·℔] cousin Danny Mayer, who was a dancer who always came over as part of Judy Garland's company for her annual season at the Dominion in Tottenham Court Road, during one of which she died. A couple of years before, he contacted my grandmother, then in her 80s and living in Kensington, & we all went to tea to meet him. He was one of the dancers in the crap-game-in-the-sewer sequence in Guys & Dolls. Next time you see it, watch out for the one in the big green fedora hat; that's my cousin Danny!

All of which has a great deal to do with the Caliphate, eh?


                   ~M~

Subject: RE: BS: Caliphate
From: beardedbruce
Date: 11 Aug 14 - 09:18 AM

Islamic State has crushed a pocket of resistance to its control in eastern Syria, crucifying two people and executing 23 others in the past five days, a monitoring group said on Monday.
The insurgents, who are also making rapid advances in Iraq, are tightening their grip in Syria, of which they now controls roughly a third, mostly rural areas in the north and east.

The group, an al-Qaida offshoot, has fought the Syrian army, Kurdish militias, and Sunni Muslim tribal forces.

The Syrian Observatory for Human Rights, a Britain-based monitoring organization, and residents in Syria's east said that fighters from the al-Sheitaat tribe in eastern Deir al-Zor had tried to resist Islamic State's advance this month.

In al-Shaafa, a town on the banks of the Euphrates river, Islamic State beheaded two men from the al-Sheitaat clan on Sunday, the Observatory said, and gave residents a 12-hour deadline on Monday to hand over members of the tribe.

In other parts of Deir al-Zor province, the militants crucified two men for the crime of "dealing with apostates" in the city of Mayadin, and two others for blasphemy in the nearby town of al-Bulel, the Observatory said.

Islamic State has made rapid gains in Syria since it seized northern Iraq's largest city, Mosul, on June 10, and declared an Islamic caliphate on territory it controls in Syria and Iraq.

The Observatory said a further 19 men from the al-Sheitaat tribe were executed on Thursday, 18 shot dead and one beheaded, on the outskirts of Deir al-Zor city. It said the men worked at an oil installation.

"No one will now dare from the other tribes to move against Islamic State after the defeat of the al-Sheitaat," said Ahmad Ziyada al-Qaissi, an Islamic State sympathizer contacted by Skype from Mayadin.

Tribal sources say the conflict between Islamic State and the al-Sheitaat tribe, who number about 70,000, flared after Islamic State took over of two oil fields in July.

One of those, al-Omar, is the biggest oil and gas field in Deir al-Zor and has been a lucrative source of funds for rebel groups.

The head of the al-Sheitaat tribe, Sheikh Rafaa Aakla al-Raju, called in a video message for other tribes to join the fight against Islamic State.

"We appeal to the other tribes to stand by us because it will be their turn next ... If (Islamic State) are done with us, the other tribes will targeted after al-Sheitaat. They are the next target," he said in the video, posted on YouTube on Sunday.



WINNING RESPECT

A Syrian human rights activist from Deir al-Zor who fled for Turkey last year said rebels opposed to President Bashar al-Assad had retreated to al-Sheitaat tribal areas from which they had been trying to mount resistance to Islamic State's expansion.

He said, on condition of anonymity, that the resistance had been crushed in the past few days. "The situation is very bad, but the people can't repel them," he said.

He said that in tandem with their violent campaign, Islamic State was distributing gas, electricity, fuel, and food to garner local support.

"It is a poor area. They are winning support this way. They won a lot of support this way. They are halting theft and punishing thieves. This is also giving them credibility."

More than 170,000 people have been killed in Syria's civil war, which pits overwhelmingly Sunni Muslim rebels against Assad, a member of the Shi'ite-derived Alawite minority, backed by Shi'ite militias from Iraq and Lebanon.

The insurgency is split between competing factions, with Islamic State emerging as the most powerful.

In Raqqa, Islamic State's power base in Syria, its hold appears to be growing only firmer even as Syrian government forces intensify air strikes on territory held by the group.

One Syrian living in an area of Islamic State control near Raqqa said the number of its fighters in the streets had grown dramatically in the past few weeks, particularly since it captured the army's 17th Division at the end of July.

The group has carried out beheadings, levied a tax on non-Muslims, and settled foreign fighters in confiscated homes, said the resident, who asked for anonymity because of security concerns.

But despite that, as in Deir al-Zor, it has won a degree of respect among locals by curbing crime using its version of law and order. For youths without work, salaries offered by Islamic State are one of the few sources of income.

"The (Islamic) State has respect and standing, and its voice is heard," said the resident, speaking by Skype.



Read more: http://www.businessinsider.com/r-islamic-state-beheads-crucifies-in-push-for-syrias-east-2014-11#ixzz3A5abtQKb

Subject: RE: BS: Caliphate
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 11 Aug 14 - 09:29 AM

Richard,
What some have appeared to argue is that if not enough is done about Isis it somehow justifies Israel's (actual or alleged) war crimes. That is another manifest stupidity.

No.
It is the massive emphasis only on attacking Israel for its actions.
Guardian 3 days ago,

"Why the disproportionate coverage of Israel? "Jews are news" many say, with a shrug. But this obsession with Israel's conduct tacitly encourages the easy slide into hostility towards Jews.

First, the reporting gives the false impression that the situation in Gaza, though tragic, is uniquely horrific. Compare it to the silence surrounding Isis's frightening rampage through Iraq: Mosul has been emptied of its ancient Christian community; hundreds of thousands of Yezidis have been cleansed from Nineveh province. Compare it also to coverage of the plight of Palestinians in Syria, where thousands of Palestinians have been killed and the Yarmouk refugee camp remains under siege. How many newspaper front pages have been devoted to these events?"

http://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2014/aug/07/gaza-coverage-rise-antisemitic-attacks-europe

Subject: RE: BS: Caliphate
From: beardedbruce
Date: 11 Aug 14 - 10:03 AM

BAGHDAD (Reuters) - Islamic State militants have killed at least 500 members of Iraq's Yazidi ethnic minority during their offensive in the north, Iraq's human rights minister told Reuters on Sunday.

Mohammed Shia al-Sudani said the Sunni militants had also buried alive some of their victims, including women and children. Some 300 women were kidnapped as slaves, he added.

"We have striking evidence obtained from Yazidis fleeing Sinjar and some who escaped death, and also crime scene images that show indisputably that the gangs of the Islamic States have executed at least 500 Yazidis after seizing Sinjar," Sudani told Reuters.

Sinjar is the ancient home of the Yazidis, one of the towns captured by the Sunni militants who view the community as "devil worshipers".

"Some of the victims, including women and children were buried alive in scattered mass graves in and around Sinjar," Sudani said.

The Islamic State, which has declared a caliphate in parts of Iraq and Syria, has prompted tens of thousands of Yazidis and Christians to flee for their lives during their push to within a 30-minute drive of the Kurdish regional capital Arbil.

The Yazidis, followers of an ancient religion derived from Zoroastrianism, are spread over northern Iraq and are part of the country's Kurdish minority.

A deadline passed at midday on Sunday for 300 Yazidi families to convert to Islam or face death at the hands of the Islamic State. It was not immediately clear whether the Iraqi minister was talking about the fate of those families or others in the conflict.

The militant group, which arrived in northern Iraq in June, has routed Kurds in its latest advance, seizing several towns, a fifth oilfield and Iraq's biggest dam - possibly gaining the ability to flood cities and cut off water and power supplies.

Subject: RE: BS: Caliphate
From: beardedbruce
Date: 11 Aug 14 - 10:07 AM

Washington (AFP) - Former secretary of state Hillary Clinton blamed the rise of Islamist militants in Iraq and Syria on failures of US policy under President Barack Obama, in an interview published Sunday.

Clinton specifically faulted the US decision to stay on the sidelines of the insurgency against Syria's President Bashar al-Assad as opening the way for the most extreme rebel faction, the Islamic State.

"The failure to help build up a credible fighting force of the people who were the originators of the protests against Assad —- there were Islamists, there were secularists, there was everything in the middle -— the failure to do that left a big vacuum, which the jihadists have now filled," Clinton told the Atlantic.

Clinton, widely considered an undeclared presidential candidate, was an unsuccessful advocate of arming the Syrian rebels when she was secretary of state during Obama's first term.

She was interviewed before the US president's decision Thursday to order limited air strikes to check an IS offensive into Kurdistan, which threatened US nationals and facilities and sent thousands of refugees fleeing into the mountains.

Obama, who oversaw the US withdrawal from Iraq in 2011, vowed not to send US troops back into the country and said Iraqis needed to confront the jihadist threat by forming an inclusive unity government.

Clinton, however, suggested in the interview that Obama lacked a strategy for dealing with the jihadist threat.

"Great nations need organizing principles, and 'Don't do stupid stuff' is not an organizing principle," she said referring to an Obama slogan.

She said the United States must develop an "overarching" strategy to confront Islamist extremism, likening it to the long US struggle against Soviet-led communism.

"One of the reasons why I worry about what's happening in the Middle East right now is because of the breakout capacity of jihadist groups that can affect Europe, can affect the United States," she said. "Jihadist groups are governing territory. They will never stay there, though. They are driven to expand. Their raison d'etre is to be against the West, against the Crusaders, against the fill-in-the-blank—and we all fit into one of these categories.

"How do we try to contain that? I'm thinking a lot about containment, deterrence, and defeat," she said.

Her arguments, seen as an attempt to distance herself from Obama, echoed those of Republican critics who accuse Obama of allowing a power vacuum to develop by failing to bring US leadership to bear in conflicts from Syria to Iraq to Ukraine.

Subject: RE: BS: Caliphate
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 11 Aug 14 - 11:41 AM

It is the massive emphasis only on attacking Israel for its actions.
It's fairly obvious that the Israeli propaganda factory is getting its act together in presenting opposition to the Gazan massacre as 'Antisemitic' - it's a ploy that will backfire on every Jew on the planet
"I think you made that up Jim, but he did support Obamas' proposed intervention over chemical weapons like You and I did"
You have opposed all intervention in Syria and you described my doing so as "invasion" (which you continue to do) "warmongering and fascism"
Why do you make these statements publicly if you intend to lie about them later, and if you supported intervention, why did you propose providing anti-riot equipment and defend the sale of sniper rifles and chemicals for weapons
The lobotomy obviously didn't work!
Jim Carroll

Jews for Justice
American Liberl Zionist Response
Jewish blogs
Independant Jewish voices - Canada
Crisis among American Zionists
Global Jewry
Stop the War Coalition
Jewish Voice for Peace

Subject: RE: BS: Caliphate
From: Greg F.
Date: 11 Aug 14 - 11:47 AM

Former secretary of state Hillary Clinton blamed the rise of Islamist militants in Iraq and Syria on failures of US policy under President Barack Obama

Bullshit, Bullshot.

Blame lies with the failed interventionist policies of U.S. Presidents Bush I, Ronnie RayGun & Bush II.

This one ain't down to Obama. Hillary is just starting her presidential campaigning a bit early.

Subject: RE: BS: Caliphate
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 11 Aug 14 - 11:52 AM

Jim, I did support Obama's proposed intervention over CW.
So did France's socialist government, both US parties and all 3 UK main parties.
Against were the Tea Party, UKIP, and all your Mudcat mates.
Remember?

Subject: RE: BS: Caliphate
From: bobad
Date: 11 Aug 14 - 11:53 AM

TONY Abbott has denounced as "hideous" and "barbaric" a photograph of Australian terrorist Khaled Sharrouf's son holding the severed head of a slain Syrian soldier.

The shocking photograph — posted on Twitter by a proud father with the words "Thats my boy!" - drew condemnation from across the political divide after being published in The Australian today. The picture has attracted worldwide news coverage.

Barbaric image of Khaled Sharrouf's son a warning to the world: Tony Abbott

Subject: RE: BS: Caliphate
From: Greg F.
Date: 11 Aug 14 - 12:20 PM

I guess Mr. Abbott has forgotten about the "trophies" that soldiers - U.S, British, Austrlian, etc - took in Vietnam, eh Boo?

Subject: RE: BS: Caliphate
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 11 Aug 14 - 12:21 PM

You are a ******* liar Keith
Not only did you not support intervention, but you expressed fears at what would happen if Assad fell - you actually supported the bastard while at the same time wringing your hands for what he was doing.
Correction - you are a hypocritical liar
Jim Carroll

"Subject: RE: BS: Homs horror
From: Keith A of Hertford - PM
Date: 19 Mar 12 - 04:25 AM
I am criticised for not having any solutions to the crisis in Syria.
That puts me in good company with the world's greatest statesmen and leaders!
I DO NOT FAVOUR A MILITARY INTERVENTION.
I ALSO FEAR FOR SYRIA'S CHRISTIANS IF AND WHEN THE REGIME FALLS.

I started the thread to express horror at the indiscriminate attacks on civilians (hand=wringing sympathy according to the Hard Left), and anger that all attempts to secure a Security Council resolution were being blocked by Russia and China who also continued to arm the regime.
The Hard Left seemed not to share in that anger, reserving it all for Britain."

Subject: RE: BS: Caliphate
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 11 Aug 14 - 12:40 PM

Yes Jim, but Obama's proposed intervention over CW was over a year later, and I supported it.

Subject: RE: BS: Caliphate
From: bobad
Date: 11 Aug 14 - 12:52 PM

Oh and Greg, your attempts at establishing moral equivalences are becoming more and more pathetic....I suggest you give it a rest.

Subject: RE: BS: Caliphate
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 11 Aug 14 - 12:54 PM

BS: chemical weapons in Syria
From: Jim Carroll - PM
Date: 28 Aug 13 - 09:27 AM

"The weapons inspectors have resumed their work."
Excellent - hope they get finished before the Brits and US invade, as they seem to have decided (at long last) to do
Jim Carroll

chemical weapons in Syria
From: Keith A of Hertford - PM
Date: 30 Aug 13 - 01:31 PM

If we do not treat nerve gas as different to every other form of violent oppression, it will become just as common.

At the moment it is still a "red line."
A "game changer."

If we lose that we condemn unknown thousands to death by nerve gas because any tyrant can get it cheap.

They might hesitate if they know it will cost them their presidential palace.

Subject: RE: BS: Caliphate
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 11 Aug 14 - 12:56 PM

BS: chemical weapons in Syria
From: GUEST,keith A - PM
Date: 08 Sep 13 - 10:36 AM

If only all those people and politicians now opposing any intervention had expressed that view back when Obama first announced that he regarded chemical weapons as a red line.

If only they had objected at the time that they actually did not care what methods of slaughter were used on Syrians, Obama would have known what to expect.

No-one on Mudcat came out and said it was not our concern whether gas, germs or radionucleides rained on innocent families, but now they are outraged that Obama assumed decent people would support him.

Subject: RE: BS: Caliphate
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 11 Aug 14 - 01:11 PM

Keith, you are imagining that predominantly only Israel is criticised. There were pages on ISIS in the Mirror just recently.

Subject: RE: BS: Caliphate
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 11 Aug 14 - 01:17 PM

There has been much coverage since Quraqosh and Sinjar fell, but little previously.
Guardian,
""Why the disproportionate coverage of Israel? "Jews are news" many say, with a shrug. But this obsession with Israel's conduct tacitly encourages the easy slide into hostility towards Jews.

First, the reporting gives the false impression that the situation in Gaza, though tragic, is uniquely horrific. Compare it to the silence surrounding Isis's frightening rampage through Iraq: Mosul has been emptied of its ancient Christian community; hundreds of thousands of Yezidis have been cleansed from Nineveh province. Compare it also to coverage of the plight of Palestinians in Syria, where thousands of Palestinians have been killed and the Yarmouk refugee camp remains under siege. How many newspaper front pages have been devoted to these events?"
http://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2014/aug/07/gaza-coverage-rise-antisemitic-attacks-europe

Subject: RE: BS: Caliphate
From: Greg F.
Date: 11 Aug 14 - 01:26 PM

Oh and Greg, your attempts at establishing moral equivalences are becoming more and more pathetic...

Amusing, Boo, especially as you, Bullshot & FKWT constantly do the same thing when you can spin it to Israel's favor.

Have you got a mirror in the house?

Subject: RE: BS: Caliphate
From: beardedbruce
Date: 11 Aug 14 - 01:33 PM

Greggie,,

ANd if we do, YOU COMPLAIN ABOUT IT.

Are you still claiming that YOU get to do things tat the rest of us are forbidden to do? That you and your stooges have special privileges, and don't have the same rules to follow as those you DEMAND of the rest of us?


WHO DIED AND MADE YOU GOD???

Subject: RE: BS: Caliphate
From: Greg F.
Date: 11 Aug 14 - 01:45 PM

Special privileges like you Boo & etc. grant to Israel you mean, Bullshot?

WHO DIED AND MADE YOU GOD???

You really could benefit from psychiatric help, you know.

Subject: RE: BS: Caliphate
From: beardedbruce
Date: 11 Aug 14 - 01:54 PM

Greggie boy,

As you are the certified insane resident bigot, I ams sure you know far more about needing psychiatric help than the rest of us.

Subject: RE: BS: Caliphate
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 11 Aug 14 - 01:59 PM

Keith, you are trying to grant absolution to Israel for irrational reasons. Even if there should be more coverage of Isis and Boko Haram, none of that exculpates Israel, and the insistence that it is "antisemitism" frankly does those suffering from real antisemitism a disservice.


I would however ask why it is that you and your fellow travellers decry what you allege to be a PC reluctance to investigate alleged wrongdoing by Muslims, or their prevalence on schoolboards - but support a definition of antisemitism that (by way of my paraphrase) includes as a form of antisemitism the questioning of whether Jews have excessive influence or control of media or the law or of legislation.

Subject: RE: BS: Caliphate
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 11 Aug 14 - 02:41 PM

I am not claiming "absolution" for anyone.
I am just questioning why Israel's actions are so much more discussed than the much worse behaviour of others.

Guardian,
"Tiny Israel ranks fifth in the list of foreign countries most reported on by the Guardian. Gaza is an important news story – but the wall-to-wall coverage leaves many scratching their heads. Nobody seems to recall similar attention devoted to the far greater civilian casualties of the UK's operations in Iraq and Afghanistan.

Why the disproportionate coverage of Israel? "Jews are news" many say, with a shrug. But this obsession with Israel's conduct tacitly encourages the easy slide into hostility towards Jews.

First, the reporting gives the false impression that the situation in Gaza, though tragic, is uniquely horrific. Compare it to the silence surrounding Isis's frightening rampage through Iraq: Mosul has been emptied of its ancient Christian community; hundreds of thousands of Yezidis have been cleansed from Nineveh province. Compare it also to coverage of the plight of Palestinians in Syria, where thousands of Palestinians have been killed and the Yarmouk refugee camp remains under siege. How many newspaper front pages have been devoted to these events?"

Subject: RE: BS: Caliphate
From: Teribus
Date: 12 Aug 14 - 01:42 AM

" I am against the United States using the plight of those "suffering, desperate people" as a window of opportunity to protect its oil interests."

What oil interests, Christmas?

Subject: RE: BS: Caliphate
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 12 Aug 14 - 02:45 AM

"What oil interests, Christmas?"
When the U.S. announced its intentions to become involved in this, it did so on the basis that it was doing so on humanitarian grounds - excellent, pity it didn't apply in Syria or Gaza, but there you go.
It added the rider "and in order to protect the interests of the American people", which left it free go "go where no man ought to go" wherever and whenever it saw fit
Maybe Middle eastern oil is no longer of interest to the U.S. and we no longer have to concern ourselves with Gulf Wars or Weapons of Mass Destruction - what does your friend, who reads these things for you think, me little Tortoise?
Asleep on duty again, tsk, tsk, - you'll be put on a charge.
Back to your post.
"I am just questioning why Israel's actions are so much more discussed than the much worse behaviour of others"
No you are not - you are just claiming infallibility for Israel once again.
Israel has just slaughtered around 2000 people; in the past it engineered the rape and massacre of up to 3,500 unarmed refugees.
It has given itself the right to declare Israel to be wherever she wishes it to be, to evict or slaughter anybody who gets in her way.
She has the manpower and weapons, including nuclear facility, to carry out such a policy and is ruled by an extremist right-wing government driven by a mission and a 'God-given' right.
She has the power to reduce the Middle East to ashes, making her a far greater threat than all the other fanatical headbangers rolled together.
We've just seen what she is prepared to do to anybody who interferes with her ambitions.
She is the leading threat to world peace and safety today.
"You really could benefit from psychiatric help, you know"
Too late for that, I'm afraid - he's "infallible, don't forget - someone else with a Messianic Mission.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Caliphate
From: Teribus
Date: 12 Aug 14 - 02:54 AM

"Maybe Middle eastern oil is no longer of interest to the U.S."

In which case Christmas, my batty little fruit cake, why mention it, or does it have to be mentioned in accordance your little lefty-Stalinist script.

Subject: RE: BS: Caliphate
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 12 Aug 14 - 03:20 AM

Sorry - did that actually mean anything, me little goose-stepper?
America, by announcing her policy in the way it was stated, gave herself the right to extend her action to wherever there are American interests
Isn't your reader up yet - maybe you should leave it till later!
Not one of you bunch of warriors has commented on the comments of the list of Jews who find all this as offensive as the rest of us
no surprise there
Jim Carroll