Immigration to Belgium

Subject: RE: Immigration to Belgium
From: Riginslinger
Date: 15 Dec 07 - 04:49 PM

Emma - I did not quote the movement of people in the 17th century. Nothing I mentioned goes back over ten years or so.

                      I am not trying to promote ethnic cleansing. I'm simply suggesting that steps could be taken so that the circumstances that often give rise to ethnic cleansing will not come about.

Subject: RE: Immigration to Belgium
From: Emma B
Date: 15 Dec 07 - 05:01 PM

I shall only say this once more!

The Albanian diaspera occurred at the end of the 17th century as a direct result of Sebian emigration north!

Any subsequent movement of etnically Albanian Kosovan people in the last couple of decades has been the return of refugees following the atrocities and attempted ethnic cleansing of the Milosevic regime.

Now, where is that shampoo?

Subject: RE: Immigration to Belgium
From: number 6
Date: 15 Dec 07 - 05:16 PM

here's a bottle Emma ... it's organic ... good stuff.

biLL

Subject: RE: Immigration to Belgium
From: Emma B
Date: 15 Dec 07 - 05:18 PM

Thanks Bill :)

I'm gonna wash that man right out of my hair ♫

Subject: RE: Immigration to Belgium
From: number 6
Date: 15 Dec 07 - 05:20 PM

"I'm simply suggesting that steps could be taken so that the circumstances that often give rise to ethnic cleansing will not come about."

here's a suggestion ... why don't we people of the world just try to get along ... there is still plenty of space for us to live, feed ourselves, provide good medical care ... and we could do it without destroying the planet, or even ourselves .... we just have to learn to accept one another and get along.

Imagine

biLL

Subject: RE: Immigration to Belgium
From: Riginslinger
Date: 15 Dec 07 - 06:16 PM

Okay, Emma, you obviously know a lot more about this part of the world than I do. I have no reason to doubt your knowledge of the history of the area. I was just using it as an example to make a point about population growth and migration. I will acknowledge that this was a bad example to use.

Subject: RE: Immigration to Belgium
From: Emma B
Date: 15 Dec 07 - 08:40 PM

Guest 15 Dec 07 - 07:36 PM, I have been willing to discuss issues with Ringinslinger in the sometimes 'confrontational' manner that can characterize Mudcat!

However, anonymous racist trolls have no place here.

Stand not upon the order of your leaving.......

Subject: RE: Immigration to Belgium
From: Riginslinger
Date: 15 Dec 07 - 08:48 PM

That's troubling, guest. We know those forces are out there, and knowing that makes it hard to take some of the political operatives at their word, even if they're being totally straight-forward and honest--there's really no way to know.

                   When we read Hispanic journalists, for instance, it's hard not to ask oneself, "Is this guy working for the Nation of Aztlan or not?"

                   And the groups, LaRaza, MALDF, MEChA, and etc. they all seem to promote the idea that America should have more Latino immigrants and fewer from Asia and other places. It's all very suspicious.

Subject: RE: Immigration to Belgium
From: Sorcha
Date: 15 Dec 07 - 10:05 PM

Oh gee.....America.....WHICH America? North? South? Central?
United States...WHICH United States?
Los Estados Unidos de Mexico.....The United States of Mexico.

Celts--I suggest you do a bit of research on the 'Celts'. They 'may' have come out of Scythia, the Alps, the Eurasian steppes, Gaul, or a heck of a lot of places. They sure did end up in a lot of places too.

Quote:

"Celtic culture was spread from the Iberian Peninsula to Anatolia (Turkey), but the ultimate origin of the Celts is a subject of controversy. Traditionally, scholars have placed the Celtic homeland in what is now southern Germany and Austria, associating the earliest Celtic peoples with the Hallstatt culture. (see List of Celtic tribes for the names of specific, early Celtic peoples)."

From Wiki, http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Celt which DOES admit it needs more citations for accuracy, but in the main, the article seems correct.

NO WAY is Belgium 'too far East'.....sheesh, it's nearly the Hallstatt 'homeland'.

Reference overpopulation and migration routes:

I suggest you do your homework before you start slinging mud. Go read some Abraham Maslow. 'Immigration' is neither the result nor the cause of overpopulation. Historically, 'immigration' HAS meant the fall of empires. See Rome. Before Rome, see Greece. See Alexander.

What exactly are you afraid of?

That Spanish will become the standard tongue of the United States of America? I rather doubt that, mostly because English is more adaptable, more easily 'bent' to new words and technology, and is far too established to be replaced easily. It's also easier to learn than Nahuatl. (Actually, Spanish is easier to learn than English)

Afraid that 'white' will become a minority? Well, lemme tell ya a couple of things.
1) Hispanic/Mexican IS white.

2) I am pretty sure that the WASPs are already a 'minority' in the USA. I mean those 'white' people descended from European countries OTHER than Spain. After all, if we include Spain, we must include all those Spanish-speaking peoples that dared to interbreed with the Indian population of the southern Americas. Besides, those Spaniards were Roman Catholic! Is that what scares you? A religion other than yours? Go take some comparative religion classes.

3) It has been scientifically PROVEN that 'race' just doesn't exist. RACE means homo sapiens...HUMAN. ALL HUMANS are able to interbreed with all others. Is that what scares you?

Now, 'ethnicity' does exist and is closely tied to 'culture'. Are cultures other than the one you are a member of what scares you? Better get used to that because if the HUMAN RACE doesn't learn and learn FAST how to be a Multi Cultural race, the planet is pretty doomed.

This IS due partly to overpopulation which causes many bad things. All crime rates rise, particularly 'crimes against persons' (and I will include animal abuse in that). When people are too crowded they tend to 'go nuts' and do things they wouldn't otherwise do. Research 'carrying capacity'.

Part of the problem (which 'may' be induced by overpopulation) is ecological. Simply by being on the planet and becoming a global phenomenon, humans have changed the Earth. Technology has both harmed and hurt.

Remember, not ALL of the planet is overpopulated, and it simply can't be the Root of All Evil that you would seem to like it to be. Migration has always happened in the planet history, and not just Human migration. Overpopulation is sometimes, but not always the cause of migrations.

Suspicious, eh? Of what? That our near neighbors want a piece of the pie? I've never heard of AZATLAN, MALDF, MEChA, and etc. but I'm pretty sure that La Raza is a 'gang' related thing. So, 'ethnic pride' is a BAD thing, Ringslinger? Isn't that exactly what YOU are promoting?


(I'd really like to know about the 'and etc.' groups)
Sorry for the book—I was a bit irritated. Rant over now.

Subject: RE: Immigration to Belgium
From: number 6
Date: 15 Dec 07 - 10:33 PM

Good post Sorcha .... I may be of Irish, German, Latvian Jew heritage but the road map in my genes undoubtably shows roads from all over ... and the same is with all of us. People on this earth have been constantly migrating ... and they always will.

On the contrary, I believe there is lots of room left in this world for us all ... all we have to do is learn to work together, to accept, not to fear our differences and we will persevere.

Imagine

biLL

Subject: RE: Immigration to Belgium
From: Riginslinger
Date: 15 Dec 07 - 10:57 PM

"I've never heard of AZATLAN, MALDF, MEChA, and etc."

                         Might want to look into it!



            "So, 'ethnic pride' is a BAD thing, Ringslinger? Isn't that exactly what YOU are promoting?"


                         No, not at all.

Subject: RE: Immigration to Belgium
From: Sorcha
Date: 15 Dec 07 - 11:15 PM

Hey, biLL...'out of Africa'......Olduvai, Lucy....

And I WILL look into them, ringwhateveryousling.

Subject: RE: Immigration to Belgium
From: number 6
Date: 15 Dec 07 - 11:55 PM

"If the country is a democracy, however, the long time residents could find themselves quickly out-voted".

Well, it's a democracy. If your unwilling to go with the flow of the majority ... then move on. Find a place/region/country that will be more acceptable to your needs beliefs or whatever.

How many people on the Mudcat were 'long time' residents of one region, or one country and moved on because they wanted or needed something better for themselves or their family, something different or maybe they just became tired of being 'long time' resident of one place and needed to refresh their soul. This is part of the human spirit and it will continue to do so ... regardless of hate and fear.

biLL .. who did move on from overcrowded Upper Canada to another region in Canada, the Maritimes. Hell, my grandson is a born Maritimer. He is the offspring of an Irishmen and of our adopted daughter, who happens to be the bioligical daughter of Islamic Kosovans ... whew, and the roadmap of his genes continue.

Subject: RE: Immigration to Belgium
From: Mr Happy
Date: 16 Dec 07 - 05:26 AM

I'd still like to which countries are 'overpopulated'

Subject: RE: Immigration to Belgium
From: Riginslinger
Date: 16 Dec 07 - 10:14 AM

Apparently the government of China thought they were over populated. That's why they implemented the "one child" policy.

             In India a large number of female fetuses are aborted each year so the parents won't be obligated to raise a girl. If they needed people there, I doubt if that would be happening.

             It's a subjective thing, of course, until you're experiencing standing room only, no water to drink, and foul air to breathe.

               I think the proper spelling for Aztlan is A-Z-T-L-A-N.

Subject: RE: Immigration to Belgium
From: Emma B
Date: 16 Dec 07 - 10:20 AM

I vivited China recently, interestingly enough one notable preferential treatment ethnic minorities there enjoy is that they are exempt from the population growth control of the One-Child Policy!

Subject: RE: Immigration to Belgium
From: Riginslinger
Date: 16 Dec 07 - 10:32 AM

Emma - That is interesting.

             Another thing I've been wondering for a while now is what happens when you have a large number of young men ready to marry and a huge shortage of young women. One would have to think there would be some repercussions from a development like that.

Subject: RE: Immigration to Belgium
From: number 6
Date: 16 Dec 07 - 10:40 AM

"In India a large number of female fetuses are aborted each year so the parents won't be obligated to raise a girl."

That tragic act is due to a cultural aspect. When your child marries you receive a substantial high dowry for a male, you pay the high dowry for the female. Over population is far from their consideration/thought with female fetuses being aborted.

biLL

Subject: RE: Immigration to Belgium
From: Emma B
Date: 16 Dec 07 - 10:42 AM

The Indian government have officially banned taking pre-natal tests solely to determine the sex of a fetus; under Indian law, ending a pregnancy only because the fetus is female is already outlawed, although the practice is said to be still common.

'Women are pressured to have sons for reasons ranging from the desire of fathers to have their names and family traditions carried on by a male line, to the Hindu tradition of having the oldest son light a parent's funeral pyre. There is also the tradition of dowry, under which families with sons demand payments from their brides' families.'

'Geeta Mukherjee, a 70-year-old veteran of India's independence movement who has been campaigning for women's rights for decades as a Member of Parliament. "Our society is absolutely male-dominated. It is the men who decide how many children they will have, and whether any of them will be girls. That is the condition of our country." '

'Census counts in India have shown a trend that many demographers consider alarming: from 972 females for every 1,000 males in 1901, to 934 in 1981, and 927 in 1991. In Haryana, a populous northern state that surrounds Delhi, the figure in 1991 dipped to 874 females for every 1,000 men, a disproportion said to be virtually unprecedented in similar counts around the world, except in countries where the male population had been decimated by war'

from New York Times today

Subject: RE: Immigration to Belgium
From: Riginslinger
Date: 16 Dec 07 - 10:46 AM

One can't help but think the results of all of this will manifest themselves in some othe and unsuspected manner.

Subject: RE: Immigration to Belgium
From: Wolfgang
Date: 17 Dec 07 - 10:39 AM

The whole story is just obvious nonsense as far as Belgium is concerned. Someone who knows Belgium would never speak about a liberal party. Like most parties in Belgium, there are two of them, one for each language group (or three, if you want to count the tiny Liberal party for the German speaking minority).

In addition to that, as in so many European countries, the "Liberals" are a right-wing party and the immigration policy described above is far from what they want and support.

Wolfgang

Subject: RE: Immigration to Belgium
From: Riginslinger
Date: 17 Dec 07 - 10:42 AM

"I suggest you do your homework before you start slinging mud. Go read some Abraham Maslow. 'Immigration' is neither the result nor the cause of overpopulation. Historically, 'immigration' HAS meant the fall of empires. See Rome..."

               Well Sorcha, at least your not so blind as to suggest, as some posters do, that overpopulation doesn't exist.

               And, of course, once an area begins to reach its saturation point, it would make sense that immigrants would quit going there. That wouldn't, however, preclude the immigrants who went there earlier from procreating, and that's where the overpopulation would most likely come from.

                And Rome was never a democracy, so it wasn't vulnerable to immigration in the same way that modern countries are. But it's not too hard to figure out how runaway immigration could result in many modern democracies falling to third world status. If that's what you want, support unchecked immigration.

Subject: RE: Immigration to Belgium
From: number 6
Date: 17 Dec 07 - 11:16 AM

Ringslinger ... In defense of your referring me to being 'blind', I feel there is much land on this planet than can become 'productive' to sustain the world's population ..... I've also cut and pasted this from Wikepedia 'overpopulation' ... this reflects my views in my stand to having a positve approach and not taking the route of the doom and gloomers of the world. All it all it can be done ... if all of mankind wants it to.

"Similarly, in his 2007 book The Improving State of the World, Indur M. Goklany argues that there is little problem with overpopulation, as humanity's state is rapidly improving overall and environmental problems can be overcome. It proposes that in the early stages of economic and technological development, negative environmental impacts increase because securing access to such necessities as food, shelter, and energy is seen as more important than protecting the environment. As development continues and these supply problems are solved, environmental impact becomes a higher priority, and steps are then taken to reduce it. This pattern can be seen for many environmental indicators, such as air quality, availability of safe water, sanitation, and toxic residues (e.g., DDT and PCBs) in human tissues, which initially declined with increasing development but have more recently improved."

biLL

Subject: RE: Immigration to Belgium
From: Mr Happy
Date: 17 Dec 07 - 11:28 AM

'Overpopulation refers to when an organism's letters exceed the carrying capacity of its ecological niche. In common pastry, human population and its environment, the Earth.'

not sure what this means?

1st para from here:http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Overpopulation

Subject: RE: Immigration to Belgium
From: number 6
Date: 17 Dec 07 - 11:32 AM

I should also add .... New York, Chicago, L.A. are overpopulated ... but there is enough food grown in the U.S.alone to sustain the populations ... in fact the waste of food from these cities could probably feed the starving countries of the third world.

This world is not overpopulated .... it's greed, gluttony, fear, ignorance that maintains the illusion of it.

The line from Dicken's Christmas Carol comes to mind .... "``If they would rather die,'' said Scrooge, ``they had better do it, and decrease the surplus population.

biLL

Subject: RE: Immigration to Belgium
From: Riginslinger
Date: 17 Dec 07 - 12:01 PM

"In defense of your referring me to being 'blind', I feel there is much land on this planet than can become 'productive' to sustain the world's population ....."


                  I suppose it all depends on your deffinition of "productive." Yes, you can go to Florida and continue to drain swamps, you can go to West Virbinia and continue to level the hills for coal. At the end of the day, however, it seems to me that you are headed for a standing-room-only form of misery.

Subject: RE: Immigration to Belgium
From: GUEST,number 6
Date: 17 Dec 07 - 12:14 PM

All I can say is Imagine.

Man's imagination can be put to peaceful, productive powers of reality. There is room for us all, in this world I believe. And when it does come to the point were there is no room, the powers of man's imagination can take us elsewhere ... if you don't let greed, gluttony, fear, ignorance and hopelessness stand in the way.

That's all I'm trying to say.

biLL

Subject: RE: Immigration to Belgium
From: Riginslinger
Date: 17 Dec 07 - 12:17 PM

biLL - I can certainly agree that greed, gluttony and ingorance are at the core of the problem, probably most problems.

Subject: RE: Immigration to Belgium
From: Goose Gander
Date: 17 Dec 07 - 01:40 PM

Emma B. -

While I disagree with Riginslinger's core contention that 'overpopulation' is the doom of this sad planet, your figures for the civilian toll from the Bosnian war are not current. The most recent estimates of which I am aware show a toll of just under 100,000 on both sides, including combatants and civilians. See here and here, too.

And there were war crimes and ethnic cleansing on both sides in Kosovo. I'm no fan of Milosovich, but he was far from the only guilty party in that conflict.

Subject: RE: Immigration to Belgium
From: Emma B
Date: 17 Dec 07 - 01:50 PM

I've no quarrel with that Michael, truth is always the 'first casualty of war' and not all human casualties were a direct result of fighting.

As to atrocities on both sides, revenge is also a sad factor too.

Subject: RE: Immigration to Belgium
From: Riginslinger
Date: 17 Dec 07 - 02:05 PM

"While I disagree... that 'overpopulation' is the doom of this sad planet, your figures for the civilian toll from the Bosnian war are not current."

               So, should we leave it to war to solve the overpopulation problem that would otherwise doom the planet?

Subject: RE: Immigration to Belgium
From: Goose Gander
Date: 17 Dec 07 - 02:21 PM

As I've argued before, we'll kill ourselves off long before we've killed the planet. The planet is probably laughing at us, if he/she/it is paying any attention at all.

Subject: RE: Immigration to Belgium
From: Riginslinger
Date: 17 Dec 07 - 02:24 PM

A planet comprised of lifeless slag isn't my idea of a heavenly body.

Subject: RE: Immigration to Belgium
From: Riginslinger
Date: 18 Dec 07 - 12:39 PM

"in so many European countries, the "Liberals" are a right-wing party and the immigration policy described above is far from what they want and support."


               Probably because the speaker was addressing an American audience, and to an American audience "liberal" is considered by some to be a derogatory term for "progressive." The speaker himself could probably be described as "right-wing," given the pulication he worked for. Bad choice of terms, I suspect.