BS: Man's name or woman's name?

Subject: RE: BS: Man's name or woman's name?
From: Genie
Date: 11 Jan 03 - 09:56 AM

McGrath, in the US, I've never known a woman named "Sidney" but I've known of several named "Sydney."

sandra, I also have known male and females named "Kerry" and "Jade." (The boy Jade I knew was born about 1975, IIRC.)

Subject: RE: BS: Man's name or woman's name?
From: Schantieman
Date: 11 Jan 03 - 10:17 AM

Marion

(can't imagine why he changed it to John Wayne!)

Stephen (male)

Subject: RE: BS: Man's name or woman's name?
From: GUEST
Date: 11 Jan 03 - 10:20 AM

McGrath is wrong. In the Donegal dialect, where Enya hails from, the pronounciation of the name Aine is N-ya. In the Connemara dialect, the pronouncication of the name is Awn-ya.

But go ahead and take McGrath & katlaughing's word for it folks, just so you can feel vindicated about the nasty anon guest.

Subject: RE: BS: Man's name or woman's name?
From: Mooh
Date: 11 Jan 03 - 10:57 AM

Alison, Shannon, Kelly, Robin (my brother's name), Michael (my name, definitely male, but isn't there an actress...?), Jean, Billy-Jo, Joe, Georgie, and on and on...

Some of the current trend towards seemingly contrived names has hit the schoolyards with a force...children finding new and imaginative ways of making fun of others by twisting their names, and I wonder if parents think of such things when they name their children. I didn't.

Mooh (pronounced Mike).

Subject: RE: BS: Man's name or woman's name?
From: Peg
Date: 11 Jan 03 - 11:21 AM

Androgynous-sounding names are all the rage in the US now...as well as first names that sound like surnames (Jordan, Tyler, Macy, Haley, Madison, Shane and names like that are popular for girls (Morgan seems to be making a comeback, too), Cooper and Tyler are both popular for boys). Nice to get away from so many Brittanys (and of course Britneys) and Ashleys (thoguh they are beautiful names but spoiled by being so common now, like Heather and Courtney). Irish-sounding names with Americanized spellings seem to be popular too, like Catelyn.

I had an aunt and uncle who named their son Dylan (which I assumed was "Dillon" after Sheriff Matt Dillon until they told me differently) way back in the 1970s; I think that was the first wave; I have met a few young men in their early 30s with this name...

on a related topic, I am not sure what is being implied by Cluin about Sean Young's underarm hair, but she is a very beautiful woman and PLENTY of women in Europe shave their legs and not their underarms and no one implies they are unfeminine. I myself do not shave under my arms (haven't for some time) and I would defy anyone to tell me I am not as feminine as they come. Does this mean men who dye their hair or use hair-styling products are complete sissies? Sheesh. The American attitude about this stuff is dumb.

Subject: RE: BS: Man's name or woman's name?
From: Genie
Date: 11 Jan 03 - 12:23 PM

"Claude" is another of those names that's used for both sexes (especially among the French).

Subject: RE: BS: Man's name or woman's name?
From: GUEST,Robinson Stanley
Date: 11 Jan 03 - 12:26 PM

What about Americans who seem to like Surnames as first names and Christian names as Surnames. ha! Ha!

Subject: RE: BS: Man's name or woman's name?
From: Sorcha
Date: 11 Jan 03 - 12:40 PM

Spaw's maw in law is Clarence. And I knew a woman named Chauncey.

Subject: RE: BS: Man's name or woman's name?
From: katlaughing
Date: 11 Jan 03 - 12:46 PM

Michael Learned is the actress who was the mom on the Waltons.

Subject: RE: BS: Man's name or woman's name?
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 11 Jan 03 - 01:22 PM

The strange thing about names is that you can get different names that sound the same and even look the same, but they've got there by different ways.

So you can get someone called Anne, and it's an anglicisation of Áine, and another person called Anne, as an anglicisation of the name that's descended from the biblical one, Hannah or Anna or whatever - which Áine has nothing to do with in its roots or its meaning.

Am I unjust in feeling that it is in a way bad manners to give a male name to a female baby? I mean one where it hasn't already become customary to use it in that way.

Subject: RE: BS: Man's name or woman's name?
From: Amos
Date: 11 Jan 03 - 01:42 PM

This oriful nasty Nameless One has personal baggage leaking out her/his earholes, doesn't it?

There are better ways to remedy that than flogging your hurt superiority from a hideyhole, mate.

You could find out who you really are, and that would make things easier for you.


A

Subject: RE: BS: Man's name or woman's name?
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 11 Jan 03 - 01:47 PM

Not necessarily.

I'm reminded of the fella who threw up everything and went off to find himself. A couple of year later he comes back looking more miserable than ever. When asked he said that, when at least he found himself, he didn't like him at all.

Subject: RE: BS: Man's name or woman's name?
From: GUEST,Q
Date: 11 Jan 03 - 01:56 PM

Reminds me of the country song, "A Boy Named Sue."

Subject: RE: BS: Man's name or woman's name?
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 11 Jan 03 - 02:04 PM

Of course if you spell it Sioux noone would think of it as a girlie name.

Subject: RE: BS: Man's name or woman's name?
From: GUEST
Date: 11 Jan 03 - 02:11 PM

I'm not exactly losing sleep over people being offended by my remarks to McGrath and katlaughing.

This is a public forum. If people insist upon publicly claiming to have authoritative knowledge on subjects they obviously know little about, then they've no one but themselves to blame when they are caught out making fools of themselves.

Sure, I could have been more polite about it, but McGrath and katlaughing have a long history of being pretty nasty to anon guests. Anon guests they disagree with/dislike often triggers their worst passive aggressive tendencies (the preferred mode of interaction of many here in Mudcat), until finally their anger grows to the point where they just can't control their behavior towards the anon guest anymore. So they start making indirect snide, cutting, critical remarks about anon guest, claiming they aren't communicating directly with them, or give "warnings" to others having a conversation with an anon guest, to try and get others to cooperate with their vendetta game.

Which then leads McGrath and katlaughing to do stupid things like they have here, which is to try and show up/put down the anon guest they love to hate. When it doesn't work, and it is them who ends up with egg on their faces, that inevitably makes a few Mudcatters feel terribly uneasy and embarrassed for them. So then Mudcatters like Amos come rushing in to play the knight in shining amour, defending the Mudcat realm from those who do not share the love for it they do, and who would dare dishonor their friends. So they too decide to go after anon guest. Same old shit, as katlaughing loves to proclaim.

Yawn.

Subject: RE: BS: Man's name or woman's name?
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 11 Jan 03 - 02:22 PM

Then there's Orna, which is yet another completely different name. "Dark haired" (And nothing to do with Oonagh either.)

This started me thinking about the names we give animals. If you hear someone calling their dog "Rover" wouldn't you tend to assume that it was a male? And wouldn't you probably be right?

Subject: RE: BS: Man's name or woman's name?
From: GUEST,Q
Date: 11 Jan 03 - 03:08 PM

Some jackel has showed up- (sorry, jackels, you are pretty smart. Saw on TV how jackel-dog crosses are being trained to sniff out drugs in Moscow).
McGrath, I remember Oonagh O'Neill, a daughter of that little man with the bowler and cane. Is it a "cross-dressing" name as well?
The author, Ayn Rand- is this a variant of Aine? Always pronounced ain as in ain't here. Not that it matters, most names like that get mispronounced (Sean = Seen, etc.)

Subject: RE: BS: Man's name or woman's name?
From: Mooh
Date: 11 Jan 03 - 03:43 PM

kat...Kat to the rescue again! I think you're right, simply because of all the limited TV I've watched, I do remember watching the Waltons when I was younger, and maybe that's where I've seen Michael Learned's name. My wife and kids watch the Waltons still I think, though it could be Little House On The Prairie for all I know. Anyway, over the years I've heard people mess up Michael as Mitchell, Michelle, Meekle (or something), without any kind of crosscultural or other excuse.

Thanks, Mooh.

Subject: RE: BS: Man's name or woman's name?
From: katlaughing
Date: 11 Jan 03 - 06:58 PM

Yer welcome, Mooh!:-) You got me to thinking, though, so I checked. It was the Waltons. I seem to recall she got her name because her dad wanted a boy, bygawd. In that instance it seems selfish of the parent to so name a child, imo.

ttfn,

kat

Subject: RE: BS: Man's name or woman's name?
From: Cluin
Date: 11 Jan 03 - 07:43 PM

If you happen to have a copy of the Clannad album, "Fuaim", and you check the credits, you'll see the name Eithne Ní Bhraonáin who played keyboards and contributed vocals. She joined the group that already had her older sister Máire and brothers Pól and Ciarán in it for that album and is pictured on the front cover group portait.

This was Enya, before she went solo and adopted the "new" name.

Subject: RE: BS: Man's name or woman's name?
From: GUEST
Date: 11 Jan 03 - 07:51 PM

Thats right. Eithne and Aine are the same name, pronounced the same way, but spelled differently, as I also explained above. Enya is a merely her handler's attempts to anglicize the spelling to make it appear to English speakers in such a way as they might have a stab at actually pronouncing it correctly. This matters a great deal for things like air play on radio. You don't want pronounciation of the name to be an impediment to the music getting played, and to create name recognition.

Subject: RE: BS: Man's name or woman's name?
From: Hrothgar
Date: 11 Jan 03 - 09:02 PM

I work with a lady named Sioux.

Subject: RE: BS: Man's name or woman's name?
From: Stilly River Sage
Date: 11 Jan 03 - 09:19 PM

A woman in an organization I work with at the university is named "Dean," but I don't know if she uses the male name pronunciation or stretches it out as "De-an."

SRS

Subject: RE: BS: Man's name or woman's name?
From: Cluin
Date: 11 Jan 03 - 09:20 PM

My niece is named Cheyenne.

Subject: RE: BS: Man's name or woman's name?
From: GUEST,Calico
Date: 12 Jan 03 - 03:23 AM

I personally have known three different women named "Michael."

And there was a female figure skater named "Lawrence," who was part of the US skating team that was killed in that plane crash (in 1971?).

Subject: RE: BS: Man's name or woman's name?
From: GUEST,Calico
Date: 12 Jan 03 - 03:25 AM

Actually, I think the skater's name was "Laurence." It was pronounced the French way, and I think she may have been of French-Canadian background, though she skated for the US.

Subject: RE: BS: Man's name or woman's name?
From: Gurney
Date: 12 Jan 03 - 04:55 AM

Names like Shannon or Sioux must surely be gender unspecific (is that a word?) as the population there must be of both sexes, barring the odd hairdresser. Chris(topher)

Subject: RE: BS: Man's name or woman's name?
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 12 Jan 03 - 06:42 AM

Names are rather like songs. You get a whole family of songs made up of variants, which can be very different, but where the ancestry can ve traced back to an earlier form - and then you'll get a song where there's been soem koind of convergence, so it's hard to say which family a song comes from.

With names of course you are dealing maybe with one or two syllables, and inevitablybnthe same combinations of syllables will crop up in different places and times, and sometimes they'll be used for men and sometimes for women.

And people can get quite passionate and indignant about that kind of thing, as if there was a list of names created as Platonic Forms before the world was made, and any messing about the blurred the edges was a kind of blasphemny.

Subject: RE: BS: Man's name or woman's name?
From: brid widder
Date: 12 Jan 03 - 12:11 PM

I think you're right that Rover would be a male dog... and why does no-one call a cat Rover... or Fido.... cats rove don't they?... and in my experience Tiddles would be very appropriate for most dogs!

Subject: RE: BS: Man's name or woman's name?
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 12 Jan 03 - 12:25 PM

We had a cat called Strider. Male.

But normally we have given our cats human names of the appropriate Gender. (Well, Strider was a human name too for that matter.)

Subject: RE: BS: Man's name or woman's name?
From: weepiper
Date: 12 Jan 03 - 12:47 PM

My real name (Holly) used to be exclusively male but is now exclusively female (like me!).

When I was at university in the Celtic Department there was a girl from Connemara named Eithne and she pronounced it 'eth-ne'. So there GUEST who thinks it's always pronounced the same as Aine.

Subject: RE: BS: Man's name or woman's name?
From: GUEST,Q
Date: 12 Jan 03 - 03:43 PM

Looks like some people think there ought to be a law on names and their use.
A friend from Holland told me that when he was born, names by law had to be biblical. He doubts that this still holds- all sorts of names show up now.

Subject: RE: BS: Man's name or woman's name?
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 12 Jan 03 - 03:48 PM

There are some names which amount to child cruelty.

Subject: RE: BS: Man's name or woman's name?
From: Bob Bolton
Date: 12 Jan 03 - 07:51 PM

G'day Q,

All sorts of traditions and prejudices can be applied to names when the law controls them. Down in South Australia there is a lovely instrument maker (concertinas, violins, hardengfels, &c)/silversmith named Pierre Hooft, of Dutch ancestry. His father should have been registered as Pieter ... but he was born while his father was working in Flanders ... and the clerk in the registry was French-speaking - and wrote the name down as Pierre!

Now Pierre is also called that, because, the eldest son takes the father's name ... even when it has been mucked up by a xenophobic Froggie bureaucrat!

Regards,

BobBolton

Subject: RE: BS: Man's name or woman's name?
From: JennieG
Date: 12 Jan 03 - 08:11 PM

Movies made in the 30's seemed to use cross-gender names often...women were called "Sidonie" - probably posher than "Sydney" or "Sidney" but pronounced the same - men tended to be called "Kit". Now I don't know about you, girls, but when my knight on a white charger comes to carry me away from my humdrum life I don't want him to be called "Kit"! But I used to have an Aunt Kitty.
My mother's maiden name was Mavis Davis........
Cheers
JennieG who was named for a movie star (Jennifer) and my mother's cousin (Grace)

Subject: RE: BS: Man's name or woman's name?
From: GUEST,Q
Date: 12 Jan 03 - 08:19 PM

The Spanish usually have gender endings- Tomás, Tomasina, Juan, Juana, etc. We have some, like Frank and Frankie.

Subject: RE: BS: Man's name or woman's name?
From: katlaughing
Date: 12 Jan 03 - 10:10 PM

There is also Riki/Rickie/Ricky

Subject: RE: BS: Man's name or woman's name?
From: Cluin
Date: 12 Jan 03 - 11:29 PM

"Rikki don't lose that number..."

Sure got sick of that one being sung to me all the time.

Subject: RE: BS: Man's name or woman's name?
From: Stilly River Sage
Date: 12 Jan 03 - 11:37 PM

Intersting. Some of these names have such associations. I had a coworker whose wife's name was Myrna Loy Manning. She was named for her aunt, who had been named for the actress Myrna Loy.

Subject: RE: BS: Man's name or woman's name?
From: Gervase
Date: 13 Jan 03 - 03:25 AM

My former sister-in-law is a Sydney. My own name's caused enough confusion over the years - I've lost count of the letters I've had addressed to Ms/Mrs/Miss Gervase, and the telephone calls that ask: "Is she there?"
Spammers generally seem to get it right, though, judging by the number of offers to increase the size of my todger and to send me shedloads of cheap Viagra!

Subject: RE: BS: Man's name or woman's name?
From: GUEST,Sally
Date: 13 Jan 03 - 03:42 AM

I'm a boy my mom's name is John, my pa's name is Ethel - we're normal!

Subject: RE: BS: Man's name or woman's name?
From: HuwG
Date: 13 Jan 03 - 08:51 AM

As this post to the Ten obscure facts about yourself thread shows, my parents are from widely differing parts of Britain, and when it came to naming their first-born (me) there was quite a tussle. My mother won, my dad chose my middle name of Lindsay as consolation prize; this was both his first name, and his father's first name before him, back to time immemorial.

Now any Scot will tell you, Lindsay is the family name of the Earls of Crawford (who apparently live in biscuit tins), and any Tynesider will know that it is not unusual as a first name for boys there.

Unfortunately, I found myself growing up in Yorkshire with both first and middle names that were unusable. I have yet to meet an English primary-school teacher who has heard of "Huw" as a first name, in spite of the fact that the BBC has many newsreaders and commentators of that name, while "Hugh" has almost faded from use entirely. And "Lindsay" was quite an exotic handle in a part of the world where "Albert", "Sam" and various Old-Testament first names are still in use. There were occasions when I might have preferred to have been called "Sue".

Rant over. My parents, incidentally, are quite dear people, still living harmoniously (in every sense of the word; they are both members of a large choir), and disappointed only in their wastrel and prodigal eldest son. Boo, hoo !

Subject: RE: BS: Man's name or woman's name?
From: HuwG
Date: 13 Jan 03 - 09:22 AM

Oops ! Try this blue clicky for the personal history, rather than the addenda.

Subject: RE: BS: Man's name or woman's name?
From: JennyO
Date: 13 Jan 03 - 12:55 PM

"Ayn", as in Ayn Rand, is pronounced "Ine".

In my family, a frequently occurring name was "Meredith", and it was used for boys and girls alike. My cousin (a man) and my niece were both called Meredith.

Jenny

Subject: RE: BS: Man's name or woman's name?
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 13 Jan 03 - 01:47 PM

Frankie? I'd assume that would be a man. Like Christie, or even Patsy if the surname was Irish.

Abbreviations tend to be unisex, especially when they are from the kind of names that have male and female versions, where the same abbreviation is normal for both - Patrick and Patricia become Pat, for example.

Kit is different, because as a man's name it's short for Christopher, and as a woman's it's from Katherine and so forth.

I see noone has come up with any names that started female and ended up more typically seen as male; and I haven't been able to think of any.

Subject: RE: BS: Man's name or woman's name?
From: JennieG
Date: 14 Jan 03 - 04:52 AM

Esme is another...it was used in 16th cent Scotland as a man's name but seems to have transmogrified (love that word!) into a woman's name. My mother had a friend called Esme.
Andre (m) / Andree (f)
Adrian (m) / Adrienne (f)
Vivian, Vyvyan (m) / Vivienne (f)
Wasn't Oscar Wilde's son called Vyvyan?
Cheers
JennieG

Subject: RE: BS: Man's name or woman's name?
From: Bullfrog Jones
Date: 14 Jan 03 - 04:59 AM

Sian -- You beat me to Michael Learned, but I seem to recall that (on The Waltons at least) she was credited as Miss Michael Learned, presumably to point up the fact that she was a woman (which to this adolescent viewer was only too blindingly obvious!)

McGrath -- the most famous Brooklyn in Britain (the Beckham spawn) is a boy.

Gervase -- spammers don't necessarily get it right. Apart from the offers of viagra and penile enhancement I often receive advice on how to increase the size of my breasts -- and frankly, they don't need any outside help!

Remember the singer-songwriter Shawn Phillips? I was working Front Of House on one of his shows back in the '70's and a very grand but confused lady came in expecting to see the actress (and Mrs Richard Harris) Sian Phillips!

BJ

Subject: RE: BS: Man's name or woman's name?
From: Schantieman
Date: 14 Jan 03 - 05:01 AM

Most of those are French - they're rather more relaxed about sex - but strict about getting their genders right!

Then of course there's Wendy, invented by J M Barrie in Peter Pan (but not, so far as I know, used for boys - except on the Rugby field: "you great big Wendy!"

Jessie?

Steve

Subject: RE: BS: Man's name or woman's name?
From: brid widder
Date: 14 Jan 03 - 05:44 AM

Paul Paula/Pauline... Gerald Geraldine...Robert Roberta... George Georgina... there are lots of those, where the ending changes the gender...

Kim in the Rudyard Kipling book was a boy... all the Kims I know are female. Rudyard... now there's an unusual name... he was named after Rudyard reservoir near Stoke on Trent... where his parents met... not unlike the Beckham babe being Brooklyn. Near Rudyard there's another reservoir called Tittisworth... if they'd done their courting there ....in the same area Stanley Reservoir gave Rudyard's cousin Stanley Baldwin his name.

Speaking of registrars making a cock up... I have a patient called Rosina, an elderly lady who should have been Rose Ena... I think the mistake is better... she doesn't.

Subject: RE: BS: Man's name or woman's name?
From: Declan
Date: 14 Jan 03 - 07:36 AM

Eithne and Áine are different names.

It so happens that in Donegal pronounciation they sound similar because the Á souunds like EH in Donegal whereas in other rigions it has more like an AW sound and the th tends to be suppressed in Donegal as well.

An Eithne from Connemara is likely to pronounce her name as in ETHNIC whereas in Donegal it will sound more like the ENYA anglacisation, but it still doesn't mean it is the same name as Áine. The name Eithne or Ethna is generally used in both Irish and English, whereas in english Áine is generally translated to Ann(e).

I always thought Wendy was a form of Gwendoline, but I could be wrong.