Origins: Tramps and Hawkers

Subject: RE: tramps and hawkers
From: Effsee
Date: 12 Nov 06 - 10:00 AM

Buchan & Hall in "The Scottish Folk Singer" have the line :-
"An' aye the rickle o' cairn marks the Hoose o' John o' Groat"
i.e. These house of Jo'G is nothing but piles of rubble.
Listening to Jimmy singing the song it's easy to mishear his pronunciation of "cairn" as "carlin".

Subject: RE: tramps and hawkers
From: Effsee
Date: 12 Nov 06 - 10:08 AM

Sorry, *rickles*

Subject: RE: tramps and hawkers
From: GUEST,Guest, Big Tim
Date: 12 Nov 06 - 11:53 AM

Thanks Effsee - that makes sense and may well be the solution, at least its understandable.

I got both 'rickle' from the Penguin Book of Scottish Verse, don't know where they got it.

Subject: RE: tramps and hawkers
From: C. Ham
Date: 12 Nov 06 - 03:00 PM

The late Jim Ringer, a California singer who performed with his wife Mary McCaslin, covered the song years ago.

No, Jim did not "cover" the song. He took the melody and wrote new words to it.

I believe Jim Ringer's song by this name is the "Rose of the San Joaquin"

"The Rose of the San Joaquin" was written by Tom Russell and Ian Tyson.

Subject: RE: tramps and hawkers
From: Big Tim
Date: 14 Feb 07 - 09:48 AM

'I helped to build the michty bridge that spans the busy Forth' line is a clue to the date of the song?

Obviously not the Forth Road Bridge (1964) so must be the Forth Rail Bridge, constructed between 1893 and 1890.

Subject: RE: tramps and hawkers
From: Scrump
Date: 14 Feb 07 - 11:13 AM

the Forth Rail Bridge, constructed between 1893 and 1890

So, they built it backwards, starting in the middle and working their way towards the banks :D

Subject: RE: tramps and hawkers
From: Big Tim
Date: 14 Feb 07 - 11:20 AM

Sorry Scrump, 1883-1890.

Subject: RE: tramps and hawkers
From: Scrump
Date: 14 Feb 07 - 11:40 AM

:D

Subject: RE: tramps and hawkers
From: bubblyrat
Date: 14 Feb 07 - 08:26 PM

I have to say that the tune for "Ponchartrain " as performed by,for example,the Boys of the Lough , isn"t the same as Tramps & Hawkers. I always think that "Paddy West" sounds closer than Ponchartrain, or however you spell it !!

Subject: RE: tramps and hawkers
From: Malcolm Douglas
Date: 14 Feb 07 - 09:56 PM

'Ponchartrain' has several different tunes associated with it. People who have only heard one tend to find that confusing. The 'Tramps and Hawkers' tune (also used for 'Flora the Lily of the West' and, earlier, 'Caroline of Edinburgh Town') is used in the version of 'Ponchartrain' of which Planxty and, later, Paul Brady, recorded arrangements.

These being well-known nowadays, it is usually that tune that people outside the USA mean when they mention it.

Subject: RE: tramps and hawkers
From: Scotus
Date: 14 Feb 07 - 10:12 PM

There's talk of building another bridge over the Forth - so -

The first Forth bridge was the rail bridge, the second Forth bridge was the Kincardine bridge, the third Forth bridge was the road bridge, so the new bridge will be the fourth Forth bridge. Seems satisfyingly complete somehow!

Cheers, Jack

Subject: RE: tramps and hawkers
From: Dave Hunt
Date: 14 Feb 07 - 10:54 PM

Going right back to Nov 06 (hey I only just got round to reading it!) when 'oldhippie' gave us the words - I'm not sure about his line *an' places ill tae ken* I learned it from Jimmie McBeath a _very_ long time ago and always sang *places ilk y'ken* as in 'other places you know'
Dave

Subject: RE: tramps and hawkers
From: GUEST,DonMeixner
Date: 14 Feb 07 - 11:41 PM

Well hell. I think you are all learning that everyone does somethings a little more differentlyer. The folk process has many songs with slightly changed melodies being referenced to one primary source. The Streets of Loredo and the St. James Infirmary and A Sailor/Soldier/Trooper Cut Down in His Prime being a good example.

I have heard the "Lakes of Pontchartrain" sung with a few distinct melodies. I can't tell which is righter but it matters little as all were pretty good. There is one Lake Pontchartrain now but that river has been dredged, widened, flooded, leveed and altered over the years
that you need an ariel view to see the other smaller lakes in the region.   These smaller lakes all appear to connect with Pontchartrain which is the second largest salt water Lake in the US.

I have always thought "gatherers a blaw" meant. "People who lived in the open air. such as Tinkers and or Gypsies."

Don

Subject: RE: tramps and hawkers
From: Big Tim
Date: 15 Feb 07 - 04:48 AM

The 'fourth' bridge/crossing may be a tunnel!

Subject: RE: tramps and hawkers
From: Scrump
Date: 15 Feb 07 - 07:54 AM

The first Forth bridge was the rail bridge, the second Forth bridge was the Kincardine bridge, the third Forth bridge was the road bridge, so the new bridge will be the fourth Forth bridge. Seems satisfyingly complete somehow!

Sounds as if the Queensferry Bridge Painting Company will be kept even more busy then :-)

The 'Tramps and Hawkers' tune (also used for 'Flora the Lily of the West' and, earlier, 'Caroline of Edinburgh Town') is used in the version of 'Ponchartrain' of which Planxty and, later, Paul Brady, recorded arrangements.

So you are saying that the tune Paul Brady sings to "Lakes of Ponchartrain" is what you call the "Tramps & Hawkers" tune then.

The tune I would call the "Tramps & Hawkers" tune is the one used by (among others) the Dubliners. It's the same tune Ewan MacColl used for his Radio Ballads song "My Little Son". Do you know this tune, and if so, what would you call it? Is it just another tune used for "Tramps & Hawkers", or do you give it a different name (perhaps associated with a different song)?

Just interested to know. I realise that either tune could be used for any of the songs Ponchartrain, Tramps & Hawkers, Paddy West, etc.

Subject: RE: tramps and hawkers
From: bubblyrat
Date: 15 Feb 07 - 10:58 AM

Well, after all that,I"m still confused !! I have two tunes that I know well----One is the "Tramps & Hawkers/ Paddy West " that I have heard various artists do over the years, & the other one is for "The Lakes of Ponchartrain" and excuse me, but they are quite different !!
Yes ,I grant you that the words to the songs are probably interchangeable, but that doesn"t alter the fact that it AINT the same tune !!

Subject: RE: tramps and hawkers
From: Scrump
Date: 15 Feb 07 - 11:00 AM

Yes, it is confusing! I'm now wondering if I've been singing "Tramps & Hawkers" and "Ponchartrain" to the wrong tunes all these years!

Subject: RE: tramps and hawkers
From: Deskjet
Date: 15 Feb 07 - 11:08 AM

Not to mention Bert Jansch's great version of the song.

Subject: RE: tramps and hawkers
From: Tootler
Date: 15 Feb 07 - 08:22 PM

I sang it at a local club last week. There was a suggestion that a new verse is needed featuring wind turbines and pylons :-)

Anyone game?

Subject: RE: tramps and hawkers
From: akenaton
Date: 16 Feb 07 - 06:58 PM

"Getherers o' blaw" were tinkers and travellers who carried a leather pouch which was used to carry "blaw" a mixture of oatmeal and animal fat.."Dripping". This mixture was begged or "cadged" door to door.

I got this from sleeve notes on an old Jimmy Mcbeath EP many years ago.

I also remember braxy sheep.
Braxy caused the sheeps stomach to swell and sometimes burst.
Some said it was a bacterial infection, others that a rapid change of feeding affected the animals.
The mutton from a "Braxy" sheep was perfectly edible, and many small farmers survived on it....Ake

Subject: RE: tramps and hawkers
From: dick greenhaus
Date: 16 Feb 07 - 07:22 PM

Well, the tune that seems to have gottenitself atached to Lakes (yes, it's the plural in all the early collected versions) was supplied by Mike Waterson, and it's a rather noce reworking of Tramps and Hawkers (Paddy West, etc.) The earlier tune was something completely different.

Subject: RE: tramps and hawkers
From: GUEST, Molly Mck
Date: 25 Feb 07 - 09:06 AM

Just thought I'd get my tuppence worth in here. I come from a family of Irish immigrant Travellers and family legend goes that Richard McKay from Armagh; 1800- 1897; who happens to be one of my ancestors wrote this travellers' song! The version the family knows, does not have the verse pertaining to shipbuilding on the Clyde! Some of the words used in the song are I think Cant words
He is also given credit for writing the Irish song Sweet Carnlough Bay which then became The Road and the Miles to Dundee when Richard made his home in Blairgowrie where he was also buried. Many of his descendants made their home in Dundee and are still there to this day. Just thought this would interest some of you   Molly

Subject: RE: tramps and hawkers
From: John MacKenzie
Date: 25 Feb 07 - 09:34 AM

Very interesting Molly, not surprised he ended up in Blairgowrie as there's a fine tradition of travellers round that way.
Giok

Subject: RE: tramps and hawkers
From: Jim I
Date: 26 Feb 07 - 08:17 AM

Dave Hunt said "and always sang *places ilk y'ken* as in 'other places you know"

I always thought it was "places ilka ken" as in "places everyone (i.e. each person)knows"

Subject: RE: tramps and hawkers
From: GUEST,ib48
Date: 27 Feb 07 - 06:12 AM

isnt this a clothes shop in hartlepool?

Subject: RE: tramps and hawkers
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 27 Feb 07 - 06:20 AM

Ewan McColl also used the T&H tune for a song called Englands Motorways, about navvies.

Subject: RE: tramps and hawkers
From: Big Tim
Date: 27 Feb 07 - 11:10 AM

Very interesting Molly. This is the only other claim to authorship other than Brechin Jimmy Henderson that I have ever seen. Anything stronger than 'family legend' to go on?                                 

But why not mention the Clyde since all the other geographical references in the song (except for 'Paddy's land!)are in Scotland?

Subject: RE: tramps and hawkers
From: Tattie Bogle
Date: 27 Feb 07 - 07:34 PM

I have Tramps and Hawkers on an LP of Alex Campbell's, the first folk LP I ever bought back in the 60s. Now I have a CD by Old Blind Dogs where they've really funked it up (yes, that was an n in the middle there!) Sorry, but I prefer the older version!
I also had a "discussion" with someone re the tune for "Lake(s) of Ponchartrain" being the same as the one used for "Flora, the Lily of the West": it IS the same tune on the Chieftains' "The Long Black Veil" CD, as sung by Mark Knopfler: the other person was adamant that I was wrong! But I do also remember the other tune for "Flora" on a Joan Baez LP.
But I agree with Scrump: not the same tune as the usual one for T & H.

Subject: RE: tramps and hawkers
From: GUEST,Molly
Date: 28 Feb 07 - 06:09 AM

Tim A few years back I was to record my Uncle who was in his 90s telling me about Richard but he died three days before we got round to it. He was going to tell me other songs that Richard was reposible for; Tramps being one of them. He was born about five years after Richard died. So unfortunately as far as Tramps and Hawkers is concerned it's still legend. But the words are almost a record of his life; with the exception of the verse about shipbuilding which I learned many years after. The Road and the Miles to Dundee became more or less proved when I bought an Irish Song book in Tralee and his name was above the song Sweet Carnlough Bay which then became the Scots version Road and the Miles to Dundee. So I'm still inclined to believe Richard was the writer of the two songs.   molly

Subject: RE: tramps and hawkers
From: Lighter
Date: 28 Feb 07 - 07:43 AM

"Gatherers of a'" makes enough sense for me.

Subject: RE: tramps and hawkers
From: Big Tim
Date: 28 Feb 07 - 08:23 AM

Thanks Molly. According to Colm O Lochlainn, 'Sweet Carnlough Bay', which is very similar to 'Road and Miles to Dundee' was written by 'the poet Mackay, well known character around the Glens of Antrim'. O Lochlainn learned 'Carnlough' from Cathal O Byrne in 1913.

Subject: RE: tramps and hawkers
From: Wheatman
Date: 28 Feb 07 - 02:59 PM

MacColl used the tune for a radio ballad called "Come, me little son" a lullaby which tells the tale of an absent father who was working on motorway construction. It is included in the Ewan Macoll and Peggy Seeger song book published in 1963. I rather like Bob Davenport's rendition of Tramps and Hawkers

Subject: RE: tramps and hawkers
From: GUEST,Hector Gilchrist
Date: 28 Feb 07 - 03:52 PM

I heard this song from Jimmy McBeath when regularly at the Aberdeen Club.The tune has always been in my mind,as a version of the Donegal song Glen Swilly,which I got from an Irish worker at the Mauchline creamery in 1959 in my student days.Jimmy used to sing "broon's a toad" but it could have been Tod.or fox,anyway he had his own unique orally transmitted versions and probably made a few phrases up along the way!

Subject: RE: tramps and hawkers
From: GUEST,Molly
Date: 01 Mar 07 - 12:02 PM

Hi Tim Yes that's the Fella Richard McKay or MacKay whatever you prefer I've seen our name spelt about five different ways but it's the same McKay. Richard lived to the grand old age of 97 when he died in Bankfoot Perthshire. He and his family emigrated to Scotland during the Famine about 1846 Molly

Subject: RE: tramps and hawkers
From: Big Tim
Date: 02 Mar 07 - 01:00 AM

Fascinating stuff. Thanks Molly.

Subject: RE: tramps and hawkers
From: quokka
Date: 17 Apr 08 - 11:55 PM

the version I have from the Battlefield Band has two extra verses that don't appear on the DT version. The first is at the beginning of the song:

I dreamed a dream the other night, a dream of long ago
I saw yen o' the travelling folk, along the open road
His step was light, his head held high
tae catch the scent o' spring
and his voice rang roun' the countryside, and he began tae sing

Then the song continues more or less like the DT version, but at the end there is this verse:

When I'd awoken from my dream, the dawn song had begun
The birds sang out their old old song, to greet the rising sun
I lay along the shadows and I thought of days long gone
And those wand'ring tramps and hawkin' lads
Whose days are surely done

Subject: RE: tramps and hawkers
From: Seamus Kennedy
Date: 18 Apr 08 - 12:05 AM

Isn't T & H also the tune for The Homes Of Donegal?

And if you listen really closely, you'll find the the Lakes of Pontchartrain is 'Where The Blarney Roses Grow" played slowly.

Seamus

Subject: RE: tramps and hawkers
From: Moleskin Joe
Date: 18 Apr 08 - 07:07 AM

I have always believed "bla" was either bog cotton or the strands of sheep's wool that are quite common where sheep have been. However I can't remember where I got this from. I don't think oatmeal is something you would "gather".

Subject: RE: tramps and hawkers
From: Midchuck
Date: 18 Apr 08 - 07:21 AM

I don't think I've ever heard the original "Tramps and Hawkers" sung, but I've heard "Peter Amberly," Lakes of Ponchartain," and the Jim Ringer "Tramps and Hawkers," all sung to the same melody, so I kind of assume that's the "right" one. But the versions of "Lily of the West" that I've heard have a different tune.

The confusion on the title of the Jim Ringer song is due to the fact that, as indicated above, Tom Russell and Ian Tyson wrote an entirely different song entitled "The Rose of the San Joaquin." Then Tom put out an album entitled "The Rose of the San Joaquin," on which he did, inter alia, a cover of the Jim Ringer song.

Peter

Subject: RE: tramps and hawkers
From: GUEST,MC Fat
Date: 18 Apr 08 - 07:33 AM

I sing a verse which was written by somone who's name I forget who lived locally to me in the Vale of Leven, Dumbartonshire it goes

I have seen Dumbartons castle Rock
and it's black against the sky
but I've yet to see such beauty as
Loch Lomond to the eye
For her islands are shining emerald green
and her waters cold and deep
and sky turns red oer the craggy hills
as the sun goes doon tae sleep

Subject: RE: tramps and hawkers
From: quokka
Date: 18 Apr 08 - 08:03 AM

Thanks, guest MC Fat...I think I have about 14 verses now!There are significant differences between the DT version and the Battlefield's one. If anyone has any others please post. We could be heading for the world's longest folk song - hey, maybe that could be a new thread!

Subject: RE: tramps and hawkers
From: GUEST,Pete Campbell
Date: 19 Jul 08 - 11:31 PM

Listen to "Huck's Tune" by Bob Dylan, from the soundtrack of "Lucky You" and there it is again - the Tramps and Hawkers melody. And there is a nod to Jim Ringers lyrics in one line: Dylan has "I'm blinded to what might have been" and Jim Ringer starts with "I choose not to see the things that be..."

Such a great tune.

Subject: RE: tramps and hawkers
From: Dave Hanson
Date: 20 Jul 08 - 02:12 AM

' Places ill tae ken ' simply means places strange to see.

eric

Subject: RE: tramps and hawkers
From: van lingle
Date: 20 Jul 08 - 05:00 AM

Patrick Street used this melody for "Patrick Street" and Nic Jones used it for "Barrack Street" two similar songs, the former set in Ireland the latter in England.
BTW, Old Blind Dogs do a great version of T&H on Old Blind Dogs Live
(2005?)

Subject: RE: tramps and hawkers
From: GUEST,Ewan McVicar
Date: 20 Jul 08 - 05:18 AM

I've always suspected that the 'work' verse was Ewan MacColl adding to the too short version he had, [as people quoted above have added verses] since the rest of the song is not about 'settled' employment. In Alan Lomax's interviews with Jimmy MacBeath, Jimmy talks about spells of employment on farms etc, but Jimmy was of 'settled' stock. Can't think of Scottish travellers talking about being ploughmen or bridgebuilders.

Subject: RE: tramps and hawkers
From: Tattie Bogle
Date: 20 Jul 08 - 04:42 PM

Van Lingle, T & H by OBD...........a matter of opinion! IMHO the funky version they've come up with is not to my hunble taste at all, having come up with Alex Campbell's rendition.
TB

Subject: RE: tramps and hawkers
From: GUEST
Date: 20 Jul 08 - 08:54 PM

It's "places ilk tae ken".
ilk = like = similar

Ross

Subject: RE: tramps and hawkers
From: van lingle
Date: 20 Jul 08 - 09:01 PM

Right Tattie, I should have included IMO.

Subject: RE: tramps and hawkers
From: Big Tim
Date: 21 Jul 08 - 06:13 AM

I usually took 'places ill tae ken' to mean places that didn't exactly make the tramps and hawkers welcome. Chambers Scottish dictionary gives 11 different definitions but they are all very similar: evil, unwholesome, harsh, severe, troublesome, unfriendly, etc.

Subject: RE: tramps and hawkers
From: Leadfingers
Date: 21 Jul 08 - 06:29 AM

What is the connection with the tune 'Winding Banks Of Erne' and T & H ?
I have a recollection that this was supposed to be the original melody .