BS: Another war in the Middle East?

Subject: RE: BS: Another war in the Middle East?
From: Peace
Date: 28 May 07 - 04:34 PM

Death. It ends in death for all people.

Subject: RE: BS: Another war in the Middle East?
From: Peace
Date: 28 May 07 - 04:45 PM

"Rockets fired from jet fighters or apache helicopters are indiscriminate when they explode in busy streets or crowded apartment blocks."


Rockets fired by Hamas are indiscriminate when they explode in busy streets or crowded apartment blocks.

Subject: RE: BS: Another war in the Middle East?
From: C. Ham
Date: 29 May 07 - 08:39 AM

Jonathan Kay of the National Post has an excellent column today on Lebanon's current campaign against the terrorists operating out of Palestinian refugee camps.

Jonathan Kay column: May 29, 2007

Subject: RE: BS: Another war in the Middle East?
From: GUEST,ifor
Date: 29 May 07 - 11:16 AM

I'm sorry. My eyes have now been opened and I must apologize for all the untruths that I've posted and all of the insults and anti-semitism that have come from me.

I will now leave Mudcat.

Subject: RE: BS: Another war in the Middle East?
From: beardedbruce
Date: 29 May 07 - 05:12 PM

Lebanon army, militants in heavy clashes at camp

By Nazih Siddiq
2 hours, 26 minutes ago



NAHR AL-BARED, Lebanon (Reuters) - The Lebanese army launched artillery shells at a Palestinian refugee camp on Tuesday and militants barricaded inside fired mortars in the heaviest fighting there in a week.

As dusk fell, the rattle of heavy machine gun fire was also heard at the Nahr al-Bared camp -- the base of militant group       Fatah al-Islam which is surrounded by the Lebanese army.

"Clashes are expected," a military source said. "It's an open front." Smoke was seen rising from buildings inside the camp, a maze of alleyways which was home to 40,000 before the fighting began. Thousands of Palestinians have fled.

One Lebanese soldier was killed early on Tuesday, bringing the death toll in Lebanon's worst internal fighting since the 1975-1990 civil war to at least 79 people -- 34 soldiers, 27 militants and 18 civilians.

The Lebanese government says Fatah al-Islam triggered the fighting when it attacked army positions around the camp and the northern city of Tripoli on May 20. It has demanded the militants surrender.

Fatah al-Islam say they have been acting in self defense and reject the demand to hand over any of their fighters.

A 1969 Arab agreement stops the army from entering Lebanon's 12 Palestinian refugee camps, home to 400,000.

The government has given Palestinian leaders in Lebanon a chance to find a way out of the standoff, concerned that the refugees will see more army action at the camp as an attack on their community.

"The Palestinians' blood is too hot to handle and we cannot bear the consequences of spilled blood. We are not in this battle to attack Palestinians but to repel an attack against Palestinians and Lebanese," Prime Minister Fouad Siniora said.

The prospect of a decisive military solution to the standoff has been played down by the government in recent days because it could trigger violence at the other refugee camps, even though Fatah al-Islam has little support among Palestinians.

NO PROGRESS TOWARDS SOLUTION

The Palestinian leaders have outlined a plan to end the standoff and are communicating with Fatah al-Islam through clerics in the camp.

But a Palestinian mediator, who asked not to be identified, said there had been no progress towards a solution. "There is a need to move quickly but that is not happening," he said.

He said the crisis could deepen if it not resolved soon because the militants and their sleeper cells "will get the chance to catch their breath and launch attacks elsewhere. The Lebanese government must find a way out."

Members of Lebanon's anti-Syrian cabinet have described Fatah al-Islam as a tool of Syrian intelligence, though Damascus denies any links to the group.

"The first concern for the government and army is to remove the Palestinian civilians from inside the camp. After that the army will deal with Fatah al-Islam," Saad al-Hariri, head of the ruling government coalition bloc, told the pan-Arab al-Sharq al-Awsat newspaper.

"There will be no negotiations with those terrorists who came to Lebanon to carry out the orders of Syrian intelligence."

Lebanese authorities say Fatah al-Islam includes Arabs from Saudi Arabia, Algeria, Tunisia,       Syria and Lebanon.

Subject: RE: BS: Another war in the Middle East?
From: GUEST,ifor
Date: 29 May 07 - 05:50 PM

I have just read the above posting from someone [probably a zionist ] claiming to be me!I have counted 5 lies or mistruths in just three sentences.
At least one zionist who is sending stuff to Mudcat must be getting desperate.
ifor

Subject: RE: BS: Another war in the Middle East?
From: Peace
Date: 29 May 07 - 06:02 PM

If you are referring to the following post

"Subject: RE: BS: Another war in the Middle East?
From: GUEST,ifor - PM
Date: 29 May 07 - 11:16 AM

I'm sorry. My eyes have now been opened and I must apologize for all the untruths that I've posted and all of the insults and anti-semitism that have come from me.

I will now leave Mudcat."

and it was NOT by you, e-mail Joe Offer and have him reprimand the person who DID post it. I think you are a bloody idiot, and I find your racist views against Jews to be highly offensive, but no one should have the right to post using your name. You can message Joe under your membership name and let him know. He attends to stuff like that.

Subject: RE: BS: Another war in the Middle East?
From: beardedbruce
Date: 29 May 07 - 06:04 PM

Agreed, Peace. To post as someone else is the mark of a true coward, and a fool.

Subject: RE: BS: Another war in the Middle East?
From: beardedbruce
Date: 29 May 07 - 06:10 PM

Ifor,

Still waiting with those questions:

Now, HOW MANY Jews are presently living in JORDAN - the Palestinian Moslem Homeland)?

HOW many Moslems in Israel?

BTW, what about the GREATER number of Jews driven out of the Arab nations?

Or do you insist that Arab Jews are not supposed to have the "rights" that YOU have denanded for the Palestinian Arabs?



And did you READ the article mentioned in the post of
C. Ham
Date: 29 May 07 - 08:39 AM ?

It would be interesting to hear YOUR comments on the topic, AFTER you have read the article.

Subject: RE: BS: Another war in the Middle East?
From: beardedbruce
Date: 29 May 07 - 06:16 PM

another report:

Fighting resumes in Lebanon

By SAM F. GHATTAS, Associated Press Writer
15 minutes ago



BEIRUT, Lebanon - The army clashed with al-Qaida-linked Islamic fighters in a Palestinian refugee camp Tuesday, breaking a weeklong truce. Lebanon's government said it's determined to defeat the militants but remains willing to give mediation a chance.

Lebanese army artillery pounded positions on the northern edge of the Nahr el-Bared camp and near the Mediterranean coastline, apparently trying to prevent any militants from fleeing, reporters at the scene said. One rocket apparently fired from the       Fatah Islam militants started a fire on the edge of the camp.

Sporadic gunfire exchanges have continued daily since the truce halted three days of heavy fighting. But the fighting that started before sundown and lasted 1 1/2 hours was the worst outbreak of violence in a week.

U.S.-backed Prime Minister Fuad Saniora vowed to defeat the militants.

"We cannot compromise on the issue of terrorism," he said before the renewed fighting.

Three days of fighting beginning May 20 has given way to a tense standoff between the army and Fatah Islam militants holed up in the northern Lebanon camp.

The army has positioned hundreds of soldiers, backed by tanks and armored carriers, in place to storm the camp, where hundreds of fighters remain along with thousands of Palestinian civilians.

The likelihood of brutal house-to-house fighting has apparently prompted the government to give Palestinian factions and Muslim clerics a chance to talk the militants into surrendering. Fatah Islam leaders have said they will never surrender.

The standoff has raised concerns of more violence across Lebanon, which has a total of 12 Palestinian refugee camps where militant movements are rampant.

Officials said Tuesday a Lebanese army soldier died in fighting around Nahr el-Bared. His death brings to 31 the number of troops killed since the fighting erupted. Some 20 civilians and about 60 militants also have been killed.

Subject: RE: BS: Another war in the Middle East?
From: GUEST,ifor
Date: 30 May 07 - 11:55 AM

I am certainly not an anti semite or a racist and have opposed racism all my adult life. The first demonstration I ever joined was in support of the Vietnamese people against American imperialism and I have also opposed the rise of the BNP in the UK which is a genuinely vicious racist and anti semitic organisation.
There are many Jewish people across the world who are opposed to the Zionist policies of Israel and who are calling for a free Palestine.I support that basic demand.
It is the oppression of the Palestinians over many decades which has led to the poisonous and ruinous situation in Israel and the wider Middle East.
The Palestinians have been exiled,butchered,imprisoned and humiliated for a very long time.They will not give up their claim to the homeland they have lived on for hundreds if not thousands of years.
The zionist goons with their uzi submachine guns act like colonial racists and indeed are colonial racist of a thuggish kind.
This is not an original idea ! Take Gilad Atzman ,the Israeli born jazz musician and former member of the Israeli Defence Forces who has denounced Israeli policies towards the Palestinians and who has renounced his Israeli citizenship.Take a listen to his composition "Jenin" written in memory of those Palestinians slaughtered in that camp six years ago.
Or what about the experiences of Ygal Gluckstein ,the Palestinian born Jew and implacable opponent of Zionism for all his life.And what about the brave Mordechai Vanunu who has sacrificed his best years to expose the nuclear weapons possessed by the Israeli state.They kept him in solitary confinement for many years but his message has gone around the world.
And there are Israeli historians who are revealing the extent to which Israeli forces massacred and terrorised the Palestinians in order to drive them out of their homeland.

The zionists have driven down a murderous dead end ....the only solution they offer is more bombs,more imprisonments ,more land confiscation and a more militarised Israel with a cowed Palestinian population.But it aint working ...and it aint gonna work in the future.....
ifor

Subject: RE: BS: Another war in the Middle East?
From: beardedbruce
Date: 30 May 07 - 02:13 PM

Ifor,

Still waiting with those questions:

Now, HOW MANY Jews are presently living in JORDAN - the Palestinian Moslem Homeland)?

HOW many Moslems in Israel?

BTW, what about the GREATER number of Jews driven out of the Arab nations?

Or do you insist that Arab Jews are not supposed to have the "rights" that YOU have demanded for the Palestinian Arabs?

Subject: RE: BS: Another war in the Middle East?
From: beardedbruce
Date: 30 May 07 - 03:36 PM

Ifor,

And did you READ the article mentioned in the post of
C. Ham
Date: 29 May 07 - 08:39 AM ?

It would be interesting to hear YOUR comments on the topic, AFTER you have read the article.

Subject: RE: BS: Another war in the Middle East?
From: Teribus
Date: 30 May 07 - 06:17 PM

BB you will get no answer from Guest ifor for your questions as they would not suit the preconceived notions and distrotions so lovingly clung to by the Socialist Workers Party faithful.

Subject: RE: BS: Another war in the Middle East?
From: GUEST,H
Date: 30 May 07 - 06:35 PM

The Union of College and University lecturers today voted to consult all branches of the union to discuss whether or not an academic boycott of Israel should begin.
This idea has grown in the UK in the past few years as a consequence of Israel's attack on Palestinian students,colleges and academics in in the occupied territories.
H

Subject: RE: BS: Another war in the Middle East?
From: beardedbruce
Date: 30 May 07 - 07:41 PM

H,

Have they instituted a boycott for the Palestinian's random rocket attacks on the Israeli civilian poppulation, including both Jews and Moslems?

If not, they are hypocritical scum.

Subject: RE: BS: Another war in the Middle East?
From: beardedbruce
Date: 30 May 07 - 08:21 PM

U.N. approves Hariri assassination tribunal

POSTED: 5:22 p.m. EDT, May 30, 2007

Story Highlights• Tribunal will prosecute 2005 truck bombing that killed former Lebanese PM
• West sees move as wasy to boost Lebanese government's authority
• Lebanon has history of political assassinations that have gone unpunished
• Syria has been accused of playing role in murder; Syria has denied charge

UNITED NATIONS (Reuters) -- In a challenge to Syria, the U.N. Security Council on Wednesday voted to set up a court to prosecute the murder two years ago of former Lebanese Prime Minister Rafik Hariri.

In pushing through the resolution, Western powers are gambling that the boost to the Lebanese government's authority and to the rule of law will outweigh any violent reaction in the region.

Britain's U.N. ambassador, Emyr Jones Parry, told reporters the vote would "send the right political signal" to Lebanon, a country with a long history of political assassinations, many of which have gone unpunished.

After months of arguments between deeply divided Lebanese politicians and talks between the Beirut government and the United Nations, 10 council members supported the Western-sponsored resolution to set up the court and five abstained.

There were no votes against.

The five countries that abstained -- Russia, China, Qatar, Indonesia and South Africa -- argued that the council was exceeding its authority and interfering in Lebanese affairs.

"It is not appropriate for the Security Council to impose such a tribunal on Lebanon," South African Ambassador Dumisani Kumalo told the council.

The move responds to a request from Lebanese Prime Minister Fouad Siniora, but the country's parliament has not approved the plan because Speaker Nabih Berri, an opposition leader who disputes the Cabinet's legitimacy, has not convened the chamber.

Syria said the U.N. action violated Lebanese sovereignty and could plunge Lebanon into further instability.

A government statement carried by the official news agency said Syria stuck by its long-standing concerns about the court compromising Syria's own jurisdiction over any Syrians who could be indicted for Hariri's 2005 killing.

"Setting up the court under Chapter Seven violates the sovereignty of Lebanon and could cause the situation there to become worse," the statement said. "There has been no change in the Syrian position on the court."

Ties with Syria
Central to the dispute are Lebanon's ties with Syria, which pro-government Lebanese leaders accuse of killing Hariri and 22 others with a truck bomb in 2005.

Syria denied involvement but was forced to withdraw its troops from Lebanon, ending a 29-year presence.

The outcry over the assassination forced Syria to withdraw troops from Lebanon.

Damascus denies involvement but has indicated it will not cooperate with the court. Washington's U.N. ambassador, Zalmay Khalilzad, warned Syria on Tuesday it would face "increased pressure" if it did not do so.

Despite warnings by pro-Syrian Lebanese President Emile Lahoud and others that setting up the court could trigger a fresh wave of violence, Western leaders say it is essential as a matter of principle to try Hariri's murderers.

Critics on the council say that invoking Chapter 7 of the U.N. Charter to enforce the court's establishment, as the resolution does, is going too far.

Jones Parry rejected that view.

"Legally we can, politically we ought" to set up the court, he said.

But he described Lebanon as "a unique case", brought about by the inability of the Lebanese parliament to endorse the tribunal.

Western envoys amended the resolution last week to allow until June 10 before it goes into force to offer Lebanese factions a last chance to bury their differences over it.

The resolution puts into effect an agreement the United Nations reached with the Lebanese government last November.

Key details of the tribunal, including where it would be based, remain to be decided and diplomats expect a year's delay before it starts working.

Lebanese authorities are currently holding eight people over the Hariri killing. They are four pro-Syrian generals who headed Lebanese security departments at the time and four members of a small Syrian-backed Sunni Muslim group accused of having played a role in monitoring Hariri's movements.

But a continuing U.N. investigation has not yet recommended who should be indicted in the affair.

Hariri's son praises tribunal idea
Hariri's son hailed the U.N. resolution.

"This is a victory for oppressed Lebanon," Saad Hariri, also leader of the parliament's ruling majority, said in a televised address shortly after the Security Council passed the resolution.

"It is the moment of arriving at the gateway of justice," he said, choking with tears. Hariri said the move, opposed by Lebanon's pro-Syrian opposition leaders, was "salvation from the long criminal series of terrorism".

Supporters in mainly Sunni Muslim areas of Beirut went to the streets to celebrate the resolution as fireworks lit the night sky and candles illuminated the streets. Some supporters fired assualt rifles into the air.

A stun grenade exploded at about the same time in a Christian suburb of Beirut, causing no casualties or damage.

Subject: RE: BS: Another war in the Middle East?
From: GUEST,H
Date: 31 May 07 - 03:56 AM

But Israel is occupying land it does not own...and never has.It should withdraw from the West Bank,East Jerusalem and the Golan Heightsand stop its blockade of Gaza.There are hundreds of illegal Israeli settlements on this illegally occupied territory occupied mainly by people who have migrated to Israel from America and Russia .This occupation and the grab for agricultural land,water supplies ,Israeli only roads and the separation wall which snakes its way across the occupied land is THE cause of the ongoing hostility between the occupier and the occupied.
We have seen Israel practice its neighbourliness against the population of Lebanon last year which resulted in death and destruction of innocent civilians fleeing in car convoys, sheltering apartment blocks etc.Israel is like the neighbourhood bully that will strike and strike again until his victim says how much he likes him!
H

Subject: RE: BS: Another war in the Middle East?
From: GUEST,IFOR
Date: 31 May 07 - 11:37 AM

Film Showing
               "Our Suffering In This Land"
Tuesday 5th June at the Dylan Thomas Centre,Maritime Quarter
Swansea at 7pm ...free entry
Teacher Ed Hill visited the occupied territories with a delegation organised by Zaytoun,the olive oil exporters .He was so shocked by what he saw along the Separation wall and the suffering meted out to the Palestinian people that he made a film about his experiences which is now to be shown as part of the Swansea Bay Film Festival.Ed will be on hand to introduce the film and to discuss its making.
ifor

Subject: RE: BS: Another war in the Middle East?
From: Teribus
Date: 31 May 07 - 12:44 PM

I see that Guest ifor still refuses to answer your questions BB.

Also not a single mention in either his diatribe or Guest H's of the kidnappings and the thousands of rockets launched at Israel from South Lebanon, they apparently are fully justified.

Guest H take a look, a really good look at what constituted the Jewish and Arab lands at the end of Britain's League of Nations Mandate in 1947. I think that you will find that in the war fought between Arab and Jew (That only took place because the Arabs refused to agree to the UN deliniated borders) in 1948 which saw the birth and recognition of the State of Israel by the United Nations, that Egypt captured Gaza and held onto it when it had no right to; that Syria captured parts of the Golan and the shore of the Sea of Gallilee that had formed agreed borders back in 1923 and held onto it when it had no right to and finally the Jordanians captured and held onto the West Bank when it had no right to.

One simple fact that the pair of you want to consider. If all involve recognise the State of Israel and stop attacking Israel, Israel will stop hitting back.

Subject: RE: BS: Another war in the Middle East?
From: GUEST,al
Date: 31 May 07 - 02:04 PM

Why doesn't Israel hand all the land it has occupies [illegally ] in exchange for a general agreement on peace and security that could also see the return of refugees from exile,the de nuclearisation of the Middle East and the guarantee of Human Rights and Civil Rights for all in the land .
Just a thought!
al

Subject: RE: BS: Another war in the Middle East?
From: beardedbruce
Date: 31 May 07 - 03:06 PM

Al,

Why don't the Palestinian refugees go to the PALESTINIAN MOSLEM homeland ( Transjordan, 1923) and settle there in peace, and be absorbed, as the Arab Jewish refugees were settled in the JEWISH Homeland of Israel??

There is NO " illegal" occupation: the West bank is "in dispute", and declaring that it is Palestinian when the Palestinian have refused to negotiate in good faith ( ie, to stop the illegal area mass bombardment, prohibited by the Geneva Conventions, by the daily rocket attacks upon a civilian population seem to show a slight bias.

Please look at the history of the region.

http://www.unitedjerusalem.com/Graphics/Maps/PartitionforTransJordan.asp

Subject: RE: BS: Another war in the Middle East?
From: GUEST,al
Date: 31 May 07 - 04:33 PM

There you have it from a zionist!
Not interested in peace,security or justice.....and are all those Brooklyn born gun totin macho fundamentalist types in the paramilitary settlements really refugees from the USA ? Somehow I doubt it.
Al

Subject: RE: BS: Another war in the Middle East?
From: beardedbruce
Date: 31 May 07 - 04:43 PM

Al

"Not interested in peace,security or justice"


This does describe the present, and past, Palestinian position.


"are all those Brooklyn born gun totin macho fundamentalist types in the paramilitary settlements really refugees from the USA ?"

No-one except for YOU have made that representation. There were over 800,000 Jewish refugees from Arab nations ( as opposed to 640,000 Palestinians who fled that became Israel) that WERE settled in Israel. Sorry if you don't want a just settlement of the situation.

Subject: RE: BS: Another war in the Middle East?
From: beardedbruce
Date: 31 May 07 - 08:44 PM

Let me make a correction, to be precise:

There were over 800,000 Jewish refugees from Arab nations ( as opposed to 640,000 Palestinians who fled that became Israel) the majority of which WERE settled in Israel.

Some did settle in other countries.


Now, how many of the 640,000 Palestinian Moslems were accepted by the other Moslem nations as citizens, and settled? Or were they kept in camps, ON ARAB TERRITORY?

Subject: RE: BS: Another war in the Middle East?
From: Teribus
Date: 01 Jun 07 - 11:52 AM

Guest al and Guest ifor. Have a look at that map that BB linked to, then let us all know where Gaza, shore of the Sea of Gallilee and the west bank were.

Subject: RE: BS: Another war in the Middle East?
From: GUEST,al
Date: 01 Jun 07 - 12:50 PM

Let's have the Law of the Right to Return for everyone! Palestinians included.
al

Subject: RE: BS: Another war in the Middle East?
From: beardedbruce
Date: 01 Jun 07 - 01:41 PM

Al,

THEY HAVE IT- to the PALESTINIAN MOSLEM HOMELAND of Jordan.

Subject: RE: BS: Another war in the Middle East?
From: GUEST,al
Date: 01 Jun 07 - 02:45 PM

Reply to BeardedBruce
Those people who were forced out of Haifa and other towns and cities and villages in what is now Israel would like to return there....ethnic cleansing is illegal in International Law and that is what those Palestinians suffered :this seems beyond the comprehension of Zionists who claim a biblical right to rule the land and beyond the comprehension of you...if someone came to my country and claimed it because of purported events 2000 years ago they would be seen as barking mad!
al

Subject: RE: BS: Another war in the Middle East?
From: beardedbruce
Date: 01 Jun 07 - 02:49 PM

Al,

Those people who were forced out of the Arab nations would like to return there....ethnic cleansing is illegal in International Law and that is what those Jews suffered :this seems beyond the comprehension of those that demand for the Moslem Palestinians what they would deny to the Arab Jews.


JORDAN was established in 1923 as the ARAB (MOSLEM) PALESTINIAN HOMELAND. NO JEWS were permitted to reside there.


Now, HOW MANY Jews are presently living in JORDAN - the Palestinian Moslem Homeland)?

HOW many Moslems in Israel?


BTW, what about the GREATER number of Jews driven out of the Arab nations?

Or do you insist that Arab Jews are not supposed to have the "rights" that YOU have demanded for the Palestinian Arabs?

Subject: RE: BS: Another war in the Middle East?
From: beardedbruce
Date: 01 Jun 07 - 02:55 PM

BTW Al,

The right to return that YOU demand, if applied to Jews, would allow for the resettlement of the West Bank Jewish communities "ethnically clensed" BY THE ARABS between 1948 and 1967. Israel HAS stated it would trade that land for peace: YOU would have to insist that they do not, and the Jews driven out be allowed to resettle there.

I grew up living across the street from a Palestinaian family driven out of Ramallah - BY THE MOSLEMS ( They were Lebonese Orthodox). The town HAD been mainly Christian, before 1948...

SO, when will you demand that the present occupants give the land back to those that they drove off?????

Subject: RE: BS: Another war in the Middle East?
From: GUEST,al
Date: 01 Jun 07 - 03:11 PM

BeardedBruce,
Its not a question of MY demanding the right of return of Palestinian people to their homeland.The key point is THEY are demanding the right of return...the same right of return enjoyed by Jewish people across the world even though many of them have never been to Israel.

In order to return to their homeland from which they were driven the Palestinians have experienced exile, mass imprisonment,bombing,slaughter in the refugee camps and the confidcation of their farms,the demolition of their homes in vast numbers,the uprooting of their orchards and so much more.
It is the Palestinian people who are demanding a free Palestiniae and the Israeli state and their Zionist supporters cannot keep a lid on things despite having the most militarised state in the world and one of the world's most mightiest armies.This a state that practices torture on its Palestinian opponents without legal restraint and of course is a nuclear armed state which has implications across the region and the world.
And lets not kid ourselves that all Israelis are fundamentalist Zionists ..they are not.Many recognise the injustices meted out to the Palrestinians and have joined peace groups and groups opposed to the demolition of houses etc.Here lies hope for the future.The zionist path is a road to further destruction and misery and is a political and moral dead end.
I notice from the news today that one fundamentalist Zionistleader is calling for the carpet bombing of Gaza ...it simply isnt going to work!
al

Subject: RE: BS: Another war in the Middle East?
From: beardedbruce
Date: 01 Jun 07 - 03:27 PM

Al,

You have missed the point of the "right of return".

It is NOT a right to return to your native country- NO nation can give that to others of another nation.

Israel was formed as the JEWISH homeland. All JEWS have the right to immigrate there. THAT is the "Right of Return".

JORDAN was formed as the PALESTINIAN MOSLEM Homeland. Jordanian Law states that all PALESTINIANS ( as long as they are NOT Jews) may immigrate to JORDAN. The "Right of Return" thus has been enacted that you are talking about.


Do Jews have the right to demand to return to those Arab nations they were driven out of, from 1948 to 1967? NO!!!!


Do Palestinian Moslems have the right to demand to return to those lands they fled, under Arab promises that they would get all of Israel, in 1948? NO!!!!


Did the Arabs have the legal right to remove the Jews living on the West Bank , driven out during the period from 1948 to 1956? NO!!!!

Subject: RE: BS: Another war in the Middle East?
From: beardedbruce
Date: 01 Jun 07 - 03:38 PM

I notice from the news today that several fundamentalist Moslem leaders are calling for the destruction of Israel...it simply isn't going to work!

Subject: RE: BS: Another war in the Middle East?
From: C. Ham
Date: 01 Jun 07 - 05:01 PM

Those people who were forced out of the Arab nations would like to return there....ethnic cleansing is illegal in International Law and that is what those Jews suffered :this seems beyond the comprehension of those that demand for the Moslem Palestinians what they would deny to the Arab Jews.

I haven't seen any studies or polls showing that many Jews (or their children, grandchildren, great-grandchildren) forced out of Arab countries circa 1948-49 have any desire to go back. They are fully integrated in places like Israel, and to some extent, diaspora countries like Canada, the U.S., France, etc. I know many personally and I've never heard any of them express a desire to return to places like Egypt or Iraq.

Subject: RE: BS: Another war in the Middle East?
From: beardedbruce
Date: 01 Jun 07 - 05:36 PM

"They are fully integrated in places like Israel, and to some extent, diaspora countries like Canada, the U.S., France, etc"

BECAUSE those countries accepted them in, UNLIKE the Arab nations and the Palestinian Moslems.


Those Moslems that accepted the offer of the Israelis to live in pace, and remain in Israel are there today.

Subject: RE: BS: Another war in the Middle East?
From: GUEST,ifor
Date: 01 Jun 07 - 07:06 PM

Actually the Palestinians living within the borders of pre 1967 Israel are treated as third class citizens and are obviously not wanted there by the zionists...the mistreatment of Palestinians living on the West Bank and in Gaza and East Jerusalem is truely shocking and has besmirched the name of Israel across the world. Hence the growing amount of support for a free Palestine!
ifor

Subject: RE: BS: Another war in the Middle East?
From: beardedbruce
Date: 01 Jun 07 - 07:59 PM

Ifor,

Still waiting...


Now, HOW MANY Jews are presently living in JORDAN - the Palestinian Moslem Homeland)?

HOW many Moslems in Israel?


BTW, what about the GREATER number of Jews driven out of the Arab nations?

Or do you insist that Arab Jews are not supposed to have the "rights" that YOU have demanded for the Palestinian Arabs?

Subject: RE: BS: Another war in the Middle East?
From: beardedbruce
Date: 01 Jun 07 - 09:06 PM

back to what is really happening...

Fighting flares as Lebanese troops enter refugee camp

POSTED: 2:41 p.m. EDT, June 1, 2007

Story Highlights• NEW: Clashes intensify as Lebanese forces go into camp's northern outskirts
• Islamic militants are barricaded inside refugee camp north of Tripoli
• Artillery fire some of the heaviest since the start of the campaign May 20
• Move comes a day after officials confirm second round of U.S. supply flights

TRIPOLI, Lebanon (CNN) -- Lebanese soldiers -- backed by gunboats, heavy artillery and rows of tanks -- entered a Palestinian refugee camp that has hosted days of fierce fighting north of Tripoli, a military source said Friday.

Two Lebanese soldiers were killed Friday during clashes with Islamic militants at the Nahr el-Bared camp, the army said.

Columns of tanks rolled nearby as Lebanese troops entered the northern edges of the refugee camp, breaking more than a week of relative calm in the fighting between the army and Fatah al-Islam, a militant group alleged to be linked to al Qaeda.

Troops also pounded the camp with 155 mm shells in what is the heaviest daytime artillery fire seen since the beginning of the campaign. Lebanese security sources said the militants were pinned down in one area.

The violence began May 20 when Lebanese internal security forces were conducting raids in a Tripoli neighborhood following a bank robbery. The raids triggered clashes near the refugee camp after, army sources say, Fatah al-Islam militants shot at the troops, who returned fire.

The battles are the worst internal violence since the end of Lebanon's civil war in 1990.

The Lebanese military said it is pinpointing and targeting militant strongholds so as to avoid civilian casualties. The army has accused the militants of using civilians as human shields.

More than 30,000 Palestinians called the overcrowded camp home before fighting erupted last month. Many fled the camp last week, and Red Cross officials estimated Friday that about 10,000 civilians may still be inside.

Many Palestinians fled on foot, carrying babies and belongings, while others crowded into cars and vans and waved white flags from the windows, pleading with militants and soldiers not to shoot.

About 30 soldiers, 50 militants and one civilian have been killed, Lebanese officials said. However, Palestinian sources reported a lower death toll for militants -- 17 to 25 -- and a higher one for civilians, 20.

Friday's fighting comes a day after tank and artillery ammunition arrived in Beirut as part of a second wave of U.S. military supply flights.

Last week, the Lebanese government requested emergency assistance, saying it needed ammunition because it had depleted its stock during the operation.

Arab nations also have assisted in supplying the Lebanese military.

Prime Minister Fouad Siniora has said he refuses to "surrender to the terrorism of the militants" and accused Fatah al-Islam of using Palestinian refugees as a prop for the group's attempt to destabilize the country.

Friday's offensive defies warnings from Hezbollah leader Sheikh Hassan Nasrallah, who during a televised address last week told Lebanese forces not to enter the camp. Nasrallah also warned against sacrificing the Palestinian civilians in the camp. (Full story)

"Suppose that the government is having a war on terror, that doesn't mean they should kill half of the people on the street," he said.

The Lebanese military stays out of the Palestinian camps under a 1969 agreement that allows the Palestinians to run them.

Although critical of the Lebanese military, Nasrallah also lambasted Fatah al-Islam, accusing the group not only of an aggression against the army, but also of an aggression against all of Lebanon.

Hezbollah, an Iranian-backed Shiite faction, views extremist Sunni groups such as al Qaeda and Fatah al-Islam as enemies.

Subject: RE: BS: Another war in the Middle East?
From: GUEST,ifor
Date: 02 Jun 07 - 08:28 AM

40 YEARS OF OCCUPATION IS ENOUGH!

MARCH AND RALLY IN LONDON ON SATURDAY THE 9TH JUNE

ASSEMBLE AT LINCOLN INNS FIELD AT 1.30PM

MARCH AND RALLY AT TRAFALGAR SQUARE

SPEAKERS INCLUDE lABOUR PARTY,GREEN AND RESPECT MEMBERS OF PARLIAMENT AS WELL AS PALESTINIAN AND ISRAELI SPEAKERS.

Subject: RE: BS: Another war in the Middle East?
From: GUEST,beardedbruce
Date: 02 Jun 07 - 01:29 PM

Ifor,

Still waiting...


Now, HOW MANY Jews are presently living in JORDAN - the Palestinian Moslem Homeland)?

HOW many Moslems in Israel?


BTW, what about the GREATER number of Jews driven out of the Arab nations?

Or do you insist that Arab Jews are not supposed to have the "rights" that YOU have demanded for the Palestinian Arabs?

Subject: RE: BS: Another war in the Middle East?
From: Teribus
Date: 02 Jun 07 - 04:29 PM

Do come along Guest ifor, ou have been asked some fairly relevant questions, as an authority on the subject the least that you can do is attempt to answer the points put to you. If you cannot then at least have the guts and decency to admit that you can't.

Subject: RE: BS: Another war in the Middle East?
From: Peace
Date: 02 Jun 07 - 09:03 PM

What you gentlemen fail to understand is that ifor does not ever intend to answer the questions you have put. His purpose is to highlight Palestinian problems without ever having to admit that Isrealis are human and also have rights as humans. His mission is to highlight only the wrongs done to Palestinians. Ipso facto, to him, Israelis are less than human, because by his silence, he denies them their humanity. Stop wasting your time on ifor. The back and forth simply gives him a forum for his one-sided view.

Subject: RE: BS: Another war in the Middle East?
From: GUEST,ifor
Date: 03 Jun 07 - 01:51 AM

Peace
You are much misnamed.....the zionisim that you and your pals espouse here on this thread has led to a cycle of wars, oppression,land theft ,wholesale imprisonment,butchery in the refugee camps,the tearing up of international law and human rights,economic blockade,the destruction of civilian infrastructure in the Lebanon and Gaza,theft of water supplies and the malnutrition of children on a mass scale...the victims in all the above have been the Palestinian people ...the people that many zionists cannot even bear to call "Palestinian" in case it means they have to recognise their right to a national identity.

It is the Israeli state which has one of the most formidable military machines in the world that it routinely uses against Palestinian civilians...9 Palestinian children have been slaughterd in the past month and dozens of adult civilians killed. It is the Israeli state which is armed ,supported and funded by the USA and the UK for that matter.Without this support it would have probably gone bankrupt a long time ago.

The injustice and scandal of the Palestinian people is recognised across the world...not by you lot of course....there are many prominent Jewish people and organisations who have spoken out against the crimes and the oppression...inside Israel there are soldiers who refuse to fight over the 1967 borders,there are activists who oppose the mass destruction of Palestinian houses,there are Jewish members of the International Solidarity Movement bearing witness to Israeli crimes in the occupied territories. Many Zionists regard these people as "self hating Jews".They believe that all Jewish people who speak out against Zionism are self hating...they loath individuals like Noam Chomsky who are prominent and outspoken in the defence of the Palestinians.

In the occupied territories today the Palestinians are being beaten up,imprisoned, harrassed and intimidated as the Apartheid Wall CARVES their land into a series of bantustans and is stolen from them ,often by extreme guntoting fundamentalist Zionists who are American or Russian by birth.
In Hebron this week pictures have been flashed across the world of a Palestinian mother and baby being stoned by zionist settlers while the security forces look on with indifference.
Whiel the oppression goes on so will the support for the Palestinians.Get used to it.
ifor

Subject: RE: BS: Another war in the Middle East?
From: GUEST,IFOR
Date: 03 Jun 07 - 01:58 AM

Two Palestinian children,aged 8 and 12 .were shot dead yesterday by Israeli troops ,as they searched for scrap metal in Northern Gaza.A third child was wounded and taken to an Israeli hospital.Both children were shot in the chest.
Amnesty International has reported that some 120 Palestinian children were killed last year by the Israeli military.
ifor

Subject: RE: BS: Another war in the Middle East?
From: Peace
Date: 03 Jun 07 - 02:11 AM

Your view of me means less than nothing. It simply matches my view of you. Get used to that.

Subject: RE: BS: Another war in the Middle East?
From: GUEST
Date: 03 Jun 07 - 03:47 AM

IFOR is right. The world sees no justification for killing the children who were in Palestinian territory near the beach. They were shot in the chest!

The Israelis say they were crawling toward a fence.

Nobody condones the cold-blooded killing of children. How do the Zionists defend such actions?

If Israelis are human and have rights as humans, they should also respect the rights of others. Nobody is automatically entitled to respect. Respect has to be earned and with privilege comes responsibility.

There is absolutely nothing about Zionist Israel that I respect. In fact, I see Israel as a welfare state, completely dependent on the U.S. and Britain. They like to think, however, that they are strong and independent. They are really just a colony of neo-cons in the Middle East.

The idea that European Jews would be able to return to their homeland and live in peace as God's chosen people is a pretty thought. Thats all it is. A poem gone terribly wrong. No rhyme and no reason.

Subject: RE: BS: Another war in the Middle East?
From: Teribus
Date: 03 Jun 07 - 04:56 AM

Since the start of the Oslo peace process, the UK alone has given over £370 million in aid to Palestine, the EU jointly has given a great deal more. Anually I believe that the EU jointly used to give the Palestinians $670 million, this was more or less halted with the election of Hamas and Hamas refusal to set aside it's declared intent to erradicate the State of Israel and its people. I have attempted to find this massive amount of aid that the UK supposedly gives to Israel each year but as yet have found nothing.

The US definitely provides Israel with massive aid in the form of loan guarantees. They do the same to a lesser extent to countries in the region that have signed peace agreements with Israel.

The Israeli armed forces are formidable but by no means are they the largest in the area. They are certainly the best equipped, best trained and most effective. But that is entirely down to the reason that they have to be. Israel has been under constant threat of annihilation since the day of it inception. To date it has managed to successfully defend itself against such threats, the second that those threats are removed Israel will live at peace with its neighbours. But as long as indiscriminate and unprovoked attacks are made against the civilian population of Israel, Israel has the right to defend its citizens and requires permission from none to do so.

Subject: RE: BS: Another war in the Middle East?
From: GUEST,ifor
Date: 03 Jun 07 - 08:03 AM

The Israeli state has also stolen almost a billion pounds of taxes which the people of Gaza have paid..
but this is in addition to the land,orchards,farms,hills,grazing pastures,water etc stolen from the people of Palestine.
It is also in addition to the villages erased by the hundred and the towns and cities literally stolen from the Palestinians.
The refugees from Jenin for example came from Haifa but had all their property confiscated by the Israeli state.
In founding the state of Israel it practiced wholesale ethnic cleansing....its the crime that keeps coming back to the surface of political life like a dead body in the sand.
ifor

Subject: RE: BS: Another war in the Middle East?
From: Teribus
Date: 03 Jun 07 - 08:42 AM

Well Guest Ifor such are the prices paid when your leaders opt for war instead of peace. The Israeli's were quite prepared to accept the UN deliniated boundaries proposed in 1948. The Arab League rejected them out of hand and opted to drive the Jews into the sea.

In order to give themselves a free hand in this enterprise they advised "their" people to leave on the premiss that they could return once the Jews had been wiped out.

Well as we all know Guest Ifor it didn't happen, but to the murderous bastards who kicked it all off, they seem to think that it's all a game and that at the end of it everything goes back to way it was before, except that they did not hand back Gaza, the West Bank, or parts of the Golan. Kind of like playing poker and whenever you lose a hand you cry and ask for your money back.

By and large the Israeli's did go back to their start lines and the Arabs made promises and commitments that they had no intention of keeping. Attacks on Israel continued, after 1967 however, the Israeli's said that they would hold onto what they had taken until binding bilateral agreements had been reached with it's neighbours.