BS: Bush & Democrats to legalize criminals

Subject: RE: BS: Bush & Democrats to legalize criminals
From: Dickey
Date: 22 May 07 - 02:10 AM

Bobert:

I can understand when somebody contradicts themselves and tries to backpedal their way out of it. What was in the rest of that post hummm? Not a word about how bad things were getting worse all the time like you claim now.

Yeah, I'm in touch. You keep fading in and out.

Subject: RE: BS: Bush & Democrats to legalize criminals
From: Dickey
Date: 22 May 07 - 02:17 AM

And Bobert, this Immigration Reform is the perfect wedge issue, even better than Iraq, for splitting off a big hunk of voters.

Then the Politicians will be adding up the possible votes if they are for war in Iraq and against amnesty or against Iraq and for amnesty. Or they are for both or against both.

It's all about votes, not what is best for the country and you/we foot the bill, not Boss Hogg and he is the one that wants the cheap labor.

Subject: RE: BS: Bush & Democrats to legalize criminals
From: GUEST,Anti - Im
Date: 22 May 07 - 02:32 AM

Here's a pleasant little bit of video, a little over 3 minutes long.

In the "politically correct" community of Seattle last year, illegals took over the streets in a way that would land citizens in jail. But police all over America are under orders not to touch illegals because, well...they're here doing a job, dammit. They left their own stinking countries so they could destroy ours. So anyway, hundreds of illegals swarming around the streets, blocking traffic and breaking the law, and an American citizen showed actual defiance. So the police had to put the hurt on him. Watch the video...this is how American police treat Americans over the issue of "immigration."

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IOe5uYFcXzY

Fortunately a lot of communities have their police trained better. This is just how the gutless freaks in Seattle allow their cops to behave.

Subject: RE: BS: Bush & Democrats to legalize criminals
From: GUEST,Anti - Im
Date: 22 May 07 - 02:42 AM

You "liberals" are told you need to eliminate your genes with one-child policies, abortions, even suicide. Lots of stories on that the past couple of weeks, especially from Britain. White people telling other whites to quit breeding and die. But on the other side of the coin, here's what the hispanic perfessers are saying:

"We have an aging white America. They are not making babies. They are dying. The explosion is in our population... I love it. They are sh!tting in their pants with fear. I love it.... We have got to eliminate the gringo, and what I mean by that is if the worst comes to the worst, we have got to kill him."
~ Jose Angel Gutierrez, professor, University of Texas.

"Our devil has pale skin and blue eyes..." "To the gringos in the audience, I have one final message to convey, 'Up yours, baby. You've had it, from now on.' "
~ Jose Angel Gutierrez, professor, University of Texas.

"We need to avoid a white backlash by using codes understood by Latinos... non-Latinos aren't watching, they aren't raising questions"
~ Fernando Guerra, professor, Loyola Marymount

See, Mexican nationals haven't been schooled in the niceties of political correctness. While we Americans impose it on ourselves, and while Al Gore and the others sell us the bullshit that we need to commit suicide to "save the planet," Mexicans are being taught a whole different set of values.

Subject: RE: BS: Bush & Democrats to legalize criminals
From: Riginslinger
Date: 22 May 07 - 08:39 AM

"No new laws, legislation or fence is needed. Its already a crime to hire an illegal immigrant."

            dianavan--You're right, that's all that needs to be done.

                That's a pretty powerful video, Anti - Im.

Subject: RE: BS: Bush & Democrats to legalize criminals
From: artbrooks
Date: 22 May 07 - 08:45 AM

Mexicans, huh?...both Prof. Guerra and Prof. Guitierez are US citizens, born in the US. The statements attributed to Prof. Guitierez are apparently paraphrases of statements made in an interview he gave in 1969. Personally, there are a lot of things I said or did 38 years ago that don't have much to do with me today.

Subject: RE: BS: Bush & Democrats to legalize criminals
From: Riginslinger
Date: 22 May 07 - 10:26 AM

Still, the Nation of Aztlan is very much alive today, as is the student group MEChA, and they get a lot of their political support and energy from Latinos in academia.

Subject: RE: BS: Bush & Democrats to legalize criminals
From: Don Firth
Date: 22 May 07 - 01:18 PM

In the main, the demonstration in Seattle on May 1 st, 2006 was orderly. The idea that "illegals took over the streets" is disingenuous. Estimates of the crowds varied from 20,000 to 65,000, it was essentially orderly, and in most of the city, it was business as usual. The idea that all of the people—or even a large portion of them—were "illegals" is simply untrue. There were, of course, a number of hecklers, but their numbers were minuscule.

And there may be more than meets the eye in that video, Anti-Im. From a KIRO-TV News report for May 1, 2006 about the demonstration in Seattle:

Seattle Police bicycle officers made three arrests during the rally. Officer Debra Brown said that bicycle police responding to reports of a disturbance and found some people brandishing weapons. Police made the three arrests about 5:30 p.m.

Don Firth

Subject: RE: BS: Bush & Democrats to legalize criminals
From: artbrooks
Date: 22 May 07 - 01:27 PM

Looking at the video, it was an obvious set-up (otherwise, why was it so carefully filmed?). The "American citizen show(ing) actual defiance" had his arm extended out of his sunroof - middle finger extended - clearly trying to provoke the marchers. An officer told him to lower his arm, and he refused. The officer repeated himself, and he refused again. At which point the officers took him out of the car and cuffed him. Sounds like a valid charge of inciting to riot could be made against him.

Subject: RE: BS: Bush & Democrats to legalize criminals
From: Riginslinger
Date: 22 May 07 - 01:39 PM

On the other hand, watching the video of the cop in LA hitting the Hispanic in the park with a night-stick was much the same thing. The cop told the guy to "Move on," the guy refused to obey, so the cop hit him in the legs with the night-stick. The following day, 60 cops got laid off so the mayor could launch an investigation.
               It looks like a one-sided deal to me.

Subject: RE: BS: Bush & Democrats to legalize criminals
From: GUEST,Anti - Im
Date: 22 May 07 - 01:52 PM

Guerra and Gutierrez are Mexican where it matters--in their minds. If they love Mexico so much, let them move there. They won't have the right to free speech in Mexico. And as far as a statement being in the past and no longer applicable, screw you artbrooks. There, that was a couple of seconds in the past, so let's just forget about it. And why isn't the "gringo" talk addressed by any of you brainiacs? That's a derogatory term. What would you do if I were talking about "niggers" or...what's that term arch-racist Jesse Jackson used to use...oh, "Hymie Town." Yeah, what if I were peppering my posts with those words--would that be defended on Mudcat? Below is a link to some other loving statements from hispanic community leaders:

http://www.libertypost.org/cgi-bin/readart.cgi?ArtNum=133597&Disp=8&Trace=on

Man, the easiest people in the world to dupe are the academics and the "liberals." With liberals, you just have to focus their attention on an individual. Show little Juan suffering in the Arizona desert while he invades America for "a better life," but just don't mention the oppressive conditions that drove him out of Mexico. And don't mention that it's understood he'll work to "extend" Mexico because, well, the animals who drove him out of the country still patrol the streets of his family's village with automatic weapons. Just type in 'Oaxaca teachers strike guns' to see how Mexico treats its public servants. Here's a bit about a recent incident:

...Later that day, gunmen ambushed and opened fire on Triqui indigenous members of the APPO near Putla in the Mixteca region of the state, killing three people and wounding two; the Triquis were on their way to an assembly meeting.

Also that day, federal and state agents dressed in civilian clothes and armed with AR-15 assault rifles, beat and detained a leader of one of the largest organizations in the APPO, the Popular Revolutionary Front (FPR), German Mendoza Nube. Nube has been wheel-chair bound since 1987 when he was shot in the lower spine. He also suffers from severe diabetes. Two friends and neighbors were helping Nube get out of a car and into his wheelchair when the armed men pulled up in three cars and immediately beat him and threw him into the back of a pick-up truck...

The next day, Thursday August 10, the APPO convoked a march to demand the liberty of Torres Pereda and Mendoza Nube. Around 12,000 people marched toward the occupied CORTV station when they were ambushed in a narrow stretch of Morelos Avenue around 7:15 at night. Gunmen shot from both sides of the street, wounding three people and killing one. Jose Colmenares, a 50 year-old mechanic, joined the march to support his wife, a junior-high teacher from Ejutla. A gunman who ran out into the street shot Colmenares in the neck and heart. He died minutes later.

Marchers detained at least 8 suspects, and found a pistol, gloves, police boots and jackets in the house and health clinic from which the shots had been fired. Protestors set fire to the house to force hiding gunmen out, but they appeared to have escaped, and within half an hour protestors allowed firefighters access to the house. Firefighters extinguished the flames within minutes.

In the town square, tourists continued to sip coffee and listen to roaming mariachi musicians apparently oblivious to the gunshots and flames only a mile away....

http://www.corrugate.org/granito_de_arena/news/update_on_the_teachers_situation_in_oaxaca_august_14th

At least the thugs who work for the Mexican government aren't nancy-boy bicyclists like they have in Seattle. And you smug Canadians better take note that Seattle is pretty close to you. And those angry Mexican mobs are being held by cops wearing shorts and riding around on bicycles between lattes. Looks like Canada is going to be part of Azlan, too. Get your asses back to Europe, gringos.

Subject: RE: BS: Bush & Democrats to legalize criminals
From: GUEST,Anti - Im
Date: 22 May 07 - 02:08 PM

Inciting to riot. The same cameraman who filmed that incident had lots of footage of obscene hispanics cursing and spitting at him, too. I heard the cameraman interviewed on radio. So the hispanics were screaming at and threatening non-hispanics, but the nancy-boy cops didn't bother them. And what about the people in the background of the bit of film at the link--screaming and cursing and beating the man's car--why didn't the nancy-boys deal with them? The people in the background were breaking the law too.

One man was sitting in his car...on streets he pays for with tax money...and he exercised his First Amendment right of freedom of expression. And he was smacked down by the gutless cops. You defenders of the foreign invasion of America make me sick.

Subject: RE: BS: Bush & Democrats to legalize criminals
From: robomatic
Date: 22 May 07 - 02:13 PM

In the broad range of pre-history and history, the beautiful flora and fauna and topography of the Americas was first usurped by the humans who came over the landbridge and attacked the peaceful animals to make houses out of their skins and clothes, tools, and weapons from their bones and sinews. Makes me gorge rise to think of it.

After millenia of this kind of rampant abuse of their fellow creatures spread up and down the entire grand continent. Then came the vile Spanish and perfidious English to steal the land from under the existing inhabitants and enslave the populace in order to grow the murderous vegetable we call tobacco, and feed the poor of old Europe on inadequately processed grain, thus giving their own people pellagra when the indigenous population had on their own developed the processes to liberate all the nutrients that maize had to offer.

After the conquest of South America by the horrible Spanish and Portuguese and their Church, the dominaition of North America by the awful Dutch, English, and French, and their churches, were brought forth the hosts of Europe as cheap labor to lay railroad tracks and blast big big holes through the scenery, not to mention dig up huge tracts of overburden to obtain gold, silver, copper, and coal. When Irish, Norwegian, German, Swedish, Russian and Polish labor failed to satisfy, the capitalists reached across the Pacific to bring in Japanese, Chinese, Polynesians, to toil in the fields, dig in the rock, scrub the dirty clothes, and cut down the forests.

Througout this period, the original exploiters, the natives, had limited opportunities to play the plunder game or be exterminated. The other exploiters who had settled to the West and South had been for the most part dispossessed of their settlements to the West and forced South. But they could send their children north across the boarder to pick the fruits and harvest the grains, for very little money and practically no protection under the law.

The above has nothing to do with what is right, or legal. It's simply the way things were. And by the way, bad as it might sound, it was a hell of a lot better than the way the inhabitants of Europe conducted their affairs.

The 'system' as constituted has LONG permitted illegal immigration as a cost effective method of getting certain seasonal jobs done. More lately, with the commoditazation of labor, labor has taken advantage of the opportunities afforded, and the hardworking people of the south have expanded into territory that has rewarded them with pay. They have taken the opportunities to make their situations legal and been foisted off on a system that has purposely and cynically used them as a subterranean commodity within its huge economy.

Comes now an honest attempt to regularize the situation. If it is done half intelligently (a miracle in the current political climate), it would be most welcome, because it is not just a matter of justice, but it is also a matter of national security.

I have my doubts, because the necessary fallout of such a bill would be the necessity of enforcing it which would mean an honest enforcement of the southern border. I'll believe it when I see it.

Spanish is a noble tongue. Mexican food is an underappreciated culinary achievement. Mexicans and South Americans are also underappreciated by most Yanks.

We don't know how lucky we are. Bring 'em on!

Subject: RE: BS: Bush & Democrats to legalize criminals
From: Riginslinger
Date: 22 May 07 - 02:16 PM

On the other hand, dianavan was right. All they would have to do is enorce the laws that are on the books now, and none of this would be happening.

Subject: RE: BS: Bush & Democrats to legalize criminals
From: GUEST,diana
Date: 22 May 07 - 04:03 PM

Thats right, Riginslinger!

Instead of arresting the real criminals (the businesses who hire illegals), they prefer to turn this into a racial issue. Divide and conquer is the oldest strategy in the book.

As to the video the sound track was a little over the top. How do you know that the man gesturing was protesting illegal immigration, ifor? Its possible he was exhibiting road rage. Most people who object to peaceful demonstrations are those who are inconvenienced by the snarl of traffic. He should have been arrested for inciting a riot.

btw - The Mexican in the park was not attempting to turn a peaceful group, hostile.

Furthermore, there wouldn't be a "foreign invasion" if you enforced your own damn laws. You create your own problems so that businesses can get away with hiring illegals at half the price and avoid their responsibilities. Its the businesses who take advantage of the system and exploit other human beings who should be criminalized, not the Mexicans who are trying to feed their families.

Either prosecute the business people who hire illegals (like the law says) or give them amnesty so that they can fully contribute to American life. Building walls is not an option. There is no wall high enough or long enough and it only increases the profit of smugglers.

Subject: RE: BS: Bush & Democrats to legalize criminals
From: GUEST,dianavan
Date: 22 May 07 - 04:04 PM

I hate dropping my cookies.

Subject: RE: BS: Bush & Democrats to legalize criminals
From: GUEST,Anti - Im
Date: 22 May 07 - 05:48 PM

Enforce the laws. Fine. DEPORT THEM! "Fining those who hire" is being done plenty--it's part of the war against the American middle class taxpayer. Illegals have no freakin' money, so there's no benefit to busting them. Enforce ALL the laws and deport the 30 million illegals. Simple enough. Good idea.

Here's a page full of fun. Audio clips from the leaders of the hispanic community. My favorite is #14, Augustin Cebeda. It is my duty to die.

http://www.theamericanresistance.com/race_industry/true_agenda_audio.html

Subject: RE: BS: Bush & Democrats to legalize criminals
From: Riginslinger
Date: 22 May 07 - 05:48 PM

"Either prosecute the business people who hire illegals (like the law says) or give them amnesty so that they can fully contribute to American life."

          I agree with the first part of this statement. People who are hiring the illegals are not only taking advantage of them, but perverting the market for business folks who are trying to play a straight game.
          As far as giving them amnesty, I'm afraid of the population explosion that would create, among other things, but I firmly believe that people who work should expect to make a living wage, and the benefits that should go along with working. If the employers had to pay a decent wage and benefits, the incentive to hire illegal aliens would dry up in pretty short order.
          When you got to that point, assuming you could, then I think a guest worker program would make sense.

Subject: RE: BS: Bush & Democrats to legalize criminals
From: Peace
Date: 22 May 07 - 08:54 PM

I guess giving California back is out of the question . . . .

Subject: RE: BS: Bush & Democrats to legalize criminals
From: Riginslinger
Date: 23 May 07 - 07:27 AM

Maybe not. If more of the pro-illegal-elements would admit that's what they're really trying to bring about, at least it would be out on the table.

Subject: RE: BS: Bush & Democrats to legalize criminals
From: Amos
Date: 23 May 07 - 10:33 AM

It is kind of unfortunate that the Bush administration has so conclusively demonstrated its inability to manage anything well, whether war or succor or anything in between. Otherwise the administration of an efficient amnesty for present residents combined with firmer controls for future admissions -- including merit based citizenships -- would be a balanced solution. I see no reason why an amnesty should cause a population explosion, except by reproduction, which is built in to the equation.

A

Subject: RE: BS: Bush & Democrats to legalize criminals
From: Dickey
Date: 23 May 07 - 11:52 AM

The disastrous Citizenship USA project of 1996 was a luminous case of politics driving the INS to sacrifice enforcement to "benefits." When, in the early 1990s, the prospect of welfare reform drove immigrants to apply for citizenship in record numbers to preserve their welfare eligibility, the Clinton (awwk awwk) administration, seeing a political bonanza in hundreds of thousands of new welfare-dependent citizens, ordered the naturalization process radically expedited. Thanks to relentless administration pressure, processing errors in 1996 were 99 percent in New York and 90 percent in Los Angeles, and tens of thousands of aliens with criminal records, including for murder and armed robbery, were naturalized.

http://www.city-journal.org/html/14_1_the_illegal_alien.html

Subject: RE: BS: Bush & Democrats to legalize criminals
From: Riginslinger
Date: 23 May 07 - 12:52 PM

"I see no reason why an amnesty should cause a population explosion, except by reproduction,"

                Recent records show that most of the population growth in the US is caused by both immigration and offspring of immigrants. A lot of it is by reproduction, but that doesn't make it any more desirable. In fact, the situation that allows new borns automatic citizenship increases both immigration and the desire to have a child here.

Subject: RE: BS: Bush & Democrats to legalize criminals
From: beardedbruce
Date: 23 May 07 - 02:29 PM

Dobbs: New immigration plan ignores history's lessons
POSTED: 9:10 a.m. EDT, May 23, 2007
By Lou Dobbs
CNN

Editor's Note: Lou Dobbs' commentary appears weekly on CNN.com.

NEW YORK (CNN) -- There are times when reason carries the mind no further, when the mind is carried from the rational across the penumbra of the absurd. That is where the leadership of the U.S. Senate now resides.

What many once regarded as the world's great deliberative body looks more like a clamorous bazaar in which senators feverishly hawk duplicity and deceit as bright jewels of public policy. Comprehensive immigration reform is just such a bauble, and buyer beware.

Most beguiling among those merchants of mendacity is none other than Sen. Edward M. Kennedy, who has been peddling his wares at the Senate bazaar for more than four decades. Kennedy's counterfeit immigration views reach all the way back to his championship of the Immigration and Nationality Act of 1965.

In signing that legislation into law, President Lyndon Johnson promised it would not be revolutionary or affect the lives of millions, even as it overturned 60 years of U.S. immigration policy of national origin quotas and led to the creation of explosive chain migration.

Twenty-one years later, President Ronald Reagan signed into law amnesty for more than three million illegal aliens who had entered the country. President Reagan then promised the new employer sanctions would "remove the incentive for illegal immigration by eliminating the job opportunities," and that the law's amnesty provision would allow millions who were hiding in the shadows to "step into the sunlight."

And now, another 21 years later, we hear the same language as the pro-amnesty and open borders advocates demand that American citizens ignore history, reason and the national interest. They are again marketing the same false assurances about border enforcement and insist there will be no social or economic cost to the taxpayer or the nation. More than four decades of disruptive and destructive immigration policy initiatives should be a sufficient history lesson for all Americans.

The essential truth is clear: We cannot reform immigration law until we control immigration, and we cannot control immigration until we control our borders and our ports. This president and the congressional Democratic leadership refuse to recognize that reality and will not honor that truth.

President Bush and Sen. Kennedy pass for political stars in our tortured times, and that is sad enough. But if we follow the course they've set, true tragedy awaits us. And the fault will be ours.

The opinions expressed in this commentary are solely those of the writer.

Subject: RE: BS: Bush & Democrats to legalize criminals
From: artbrooks
Date: 23 May 07 - 02:58 PM

For a somewhat more centrist perspective, here is Ruben Navarrette's column for today. I take no credit or blame for the site itself - it had the column available with no log-in requirement.

Subject: RE: BS: Bush & Democrats to legalize criminals
From: beardedbruce
Date: 23 May 07 - 03:14 PM

Art,

That is a reasonable commentary. I agree with most of it.

There SHOULD be SOME penalty for having ignored the law, when so many others DO follow the rules and are still waiting to be granted status.
There SHOULD be a means for those who came illegally to pay that, and get in line with the others who wish to come here.
There MUST be enforcement of the present laws, both on immigration AND on the fines for employment of illegal immigrants.

I have no problem with a guest worker program, but if there will be citizenship granted, ALL people should have to meet the standards imposed on any particular group- such as Eastern Europeans and others who want to come here. Not fair having that those who came in illegally get in line ahead of those who have been trying to get here legally, and have been made to wait.

Subject: RE: BS: Bush & Democrats to legalize criminals
From: GUEST,dianavan
Date: 23 May 07 - 04:17 PM

Canada used to have what was called a 'landed immigrant status'. You could apply for it inside the country. In other words, you could cross into Canada and then apply for legal immigrant status. You were entitled to most of the same benefits as citizens (excluding welfare) but you couldn't vote. Its no longer a policy in Canada but it might work in the U.S.

Subject: RE: BS: Bush & Democrats to legalize criminals
From: Riginslinger
Date: 23 May 07 - 04:22 PM

"For a somewhat more centrist perspective, here is Ruben Navarrette's column for today"

         Navarrette is one of the most extreme voices out there. He seems like a "Nation of Aztlan" bomb thrower to me.

Subject: RE: BS: Bush & Democrats to legalize criminals
From: GUEST
Date: 23 May 07 - 04:25 PM

Jay Leno on the Tonight Show last night said, on the subject of paying a $5000 fine before being able to 'touch back' commented that those who were here working at minimum wage jobs would not be able to pay but those who were dealing in drugs, no prob.

Subject: RE: BS: Bush & Democrats to legalize criminals
From: Bobert
Date: 23 May 07 - 08:26 PM

Since when did the word "amnesty" become a four letter word??? I fear that the right wing has put eough PR $$$$ to do to this word what it did a couple decades to the word "liberal"... This is what the right wing does... It uses maga PR buck$$$ to reduce anything or anybody to a ***bumper sticker*** target of ***hate***...

But, hey, that is one advantage that the right wing has over thinking and compassionate people: thier constituency which is, by in large, ignorant and angry white people, of which there is no shortage...

Bobert

Subject: RE: BS: Bush & Democrats to legalize criminals
From: Ron Davies
Date: 23 May 07 - 10:05 PM

OK, Ringinslinger--

Would you mind giving us one piece of a bomb thrown by Navarette?


Did you even read the article Art linked to? For instance "These folks (the illegal immigrants) broke our laws and they need to make restitution on our terms".



Why do so many people around here feel compelled to shoot from the hip?

Sometimes it seems Mudcat really is, as somebody put it recently, a site that uses the WORN protocol----Write Only, Read Never.

Subject: RE: BS: Bush & Democrats to legalize criminals
From: Riginslinger
Date: 24 May 07 - 12:11 AM

Actually, I've been reading Navarette for a while now. He has a political agenda that shapes up over time. He almost never writes anything that doesn't promote the Aztlan/MECha story line. But I'll agree, until you get on to him, he seems subtle.

Subject: RE: BS: Bush & Democrats to legalize criminals
From: GUEST,Anti - Im
Date: 24 May 07 - 12:28 AM

The white/black thing is kind of moot at this point in American history. I mean, we have La Raza to deal with. Good article below:

Prudhomme was murdered because he identified himself as black (he was in fact mixed-race) in a neighborhood occupied by one of the many Latino street gangs in Los Angeles County. Incredibly, even though these gangs are fundamentally criminal enterprises interested mainly in money, gang experts inside and outside the government say that they are now engaged in a campaign of "ethnic cleansing" -- racial terror that is directed solely at African Americans.

"The way I hear these knuckleheads tell it, they don't want their neighborhoods infested with blacks, as if it's an infestation," says respected Los Angeles gang expert Tony Rafael, who interviewed several Latino street gang leaders for an upcoming book on the Mexican Mafia, the dominant Latino gang in Southern California. "It's pure racial animosity that manifests itself in a policy of a major criminal organization."

"There's absolutely no motive absent the color of their skin," adds former Los Angeles County Deputy District Attorney Michael Camacho. Before he became a judge, in 2003, Camacho successfully prosecuted a Latino gang member for the random shootings of three black men in Pomona, Calif.

"They generally don't like African Americans," Pomona gang unit officer Marcus Perez testified in that case. "If an African American enters their neighborhood, they're likely to be injured or killed."

http://www.alternet.org/story/46855/

The KKK is a brittle old memory now, but the FBI keeps propping it up to keep the black/white thing going, and Jesse Jackson and Sharpton stoke the fires, and that's the way the govt-owned media wants it. Look at the quote below:

"We have Nicaragua, soon we will have El Salvador, Guatemala, Honduras, Costa Rica, and Mexico. One day, tomorrow or five years or fifteen years from now, we're going to take 5 to 10 million Mexicans and they are going into Dallas, into El Paso, into Houston, into New Mexico, into San Diego, and each one will have embedded in his mind the idea of killing ten Americans."
~Thomas Borge, Nicaragua Interior Minister as quoted in the Washington Times, March 27, 1985

Notice he didn't say "killing ten whites." He said "Americans." White, black, Asian, doesn't matter to him. The worst racists I have ever known are hispanic. I see their opinions being fed to them by their media and community leaders, and maybe they have justified gripes, but I don't think we should legalize 30 million criminals who want to kill us. Just seems so...suicidal.

Subject: RE: BS: Bush & Democrats to legalize criminals
From: artbrooks
Date: 24 May 07 - 07:45 AM

That's several quotes from an article originally written for the Southern Poverty Law Center about Hispanic vs. Black gang violence in LA, which has been going on for a very long time (and doesn't seem to have much to do with immigration), and a 20-year-old threat from one of the more rabid of the original Sandinistas.

I am reminded of the Know-Nothing Party of the 1950, who were also anti-immigrant. Rather than being anti-Hispanic, they were anti-Irish and anti-Catholic; one of their "accomplishments" was destroying the stone that the Pope had sent for inclusion in the Washington Monument, then under construction. Like many of the current crop of anti-immigrants, hey also felt that the allegedly higher birth-rate among Catholics and the Irish in particular would destroy American culture.

Aztlan? Yes, there may still be some Hispanics of Aztec (or Mexican) descent who think that the American Southwest and the Mexican Northwest should be split off into a separate nation. There are also fringe cases among African Americans, such as some members of the nation of Islam, who believe in black separatism, some militia members who would like to break off from the US (or to reform it in their image), some religious cultists who don't think the laws of the US apply to them, and so forth. However, those groups also don't appear to have much to do with immigration.

The majority of Americans of Hispanic origin believe, like Navarrette, that there is a serious problem here, and that placing the illegals on a fast track toward legal status isn't the answer...but that immediate deportation (besides being impractical) isn't either. Where I live, in New Mexico (yes, that is a state in the United States, regardless of the name), many of the residents descend from families that have been here since some years before the Pilgrims landed in Massachusetts. Some isolated enclaves still have Spanish as their first language, and I am told that it is a very old dialect of the language; many others do not speak Spanish at all. Yet, very few of the letters to the paper from people with Hispanic surnames favor an unrestricted opening of the gates to people from the south.

It is clear, I'm sorry to say, that at least two of the active participants in this discussion equate Hispanics with illegal immigrants (and vice versa). There are large numbers of illegal residents in the US from Ireland, China, Poland, and, yes, even Canada, but these people do not seem to be part of the problem. Are you as vehement about immigrants, legal or not, from Spain? Could it be that the issue is really with the fact that the majority of them, right now, are from Mexico and Central and South America, are part Indian in ancestry, and are darker in complexion?

Please, don't lash right back - take a while to think about it.

Subject: RE: BS: Bush & Democrats to legalize criminals
From: Riginslinger
Date: 24 May 07 - 08:33 AM

"The majority of Americans of Hispanic origin believe, like Navarrette, that there is a serious problem here, and that placing the illegals on a fast track toward legal status isn't the answer...but that immediate deportation (besides being impractical) isn't either."

             I think you've highlighted the hole in your agrument by including this observation. No one on the side of containing runaway immigration who I've heard is trying to make the case that all of these illegals should be deported. This is a point that Tom Tancredo makes over and over, but the corporate dominated media in America refuses to pick it up.

             Multinational corporations in America want cheaper and cheaper labor, and the more people they can get to bid on their jobs the cheaper that labor becomes. The mainstream media is an arm of this corporate animal and they do what is asked of them. One of their ploys is to continue to announce that "deportation isn't practical."

             This plays into the hands of people like Navarrette, Loretta Sanchez, the mayor of Los Angeles, and the lieutenant governor of California. All of whom want to see the Latino populations explode because that brings more political power to themselves. To indicate that Navarrette is an honest broker in this dialogue is naive in the extreme.

             I would agree that the huge majority of the immigrants are innocent pawns in this struggle, but so are native born American workers.

             I suspect there are solutions to these problems, but the bill the corporate hit-men are trying to pass in the Senate is most definately not the answer.

Subject: RE: BS: Bush & Democrats to legalize criminals
From: GUEST,Anti - Im
Date: 24 May 07 - 09:32 AM

artbrook -- you have a group of people running around calling themselves La Raza (the race). The race is going to take over this, kill that, etc. Look up some of La Raza's history and writings. They actually DO what liberals accuse the dead-and-gone KKK of doing. Racial politics being practiced in your face, and it's not a problem? Look at all the flak the "white extremist groups" get. Racism is racism, but the hispanic racism is the worst I've ever seen in America. The old "nigger don't let the sun go down on you here" mentality has been transplanted from the south to California. Hispanics killing blacks simply because they're black.

And the southern California problem is FED by a constant influx of illegals. Homegrown gangs exist, but they might be manageable if recruiting weren't so easy. Shut down the borders and starve the gangs of at least that method of expansion.

Illegal immigration is bad all around. Nothing good about it. And lots of hispanics belong to and support La Raza, which is a hate group based on race. Shouldn't be tolerated. People need to quit making excuses for what is sheer racism. La Raza is bad, illegal immigration is bad.

Subject: RE: BS: Bush & Democrats to legalize criminals
From: artbrooks
Date: 24 May 07 - 09:49 AM

La Raza

Subject: RE: BS: Bush & Democrats to legalize criminals
From: Riginslinger
Date: 24 May 07 - 10:17 AM

Yeah! There you go. You might have to read between the lines a little--the part about MEChA is absolutely laughable--but the truth is there.

Subject: RE: BS: Bush & Democrats to legalize criminals
From: Ebbie
Date: 24 May 07 - 12:43 PM

I agree. In northern Alaska, the Inupiaq translate their name as 'The People'. I have no doubt that they are planning to take over the country.

Subject: RE: BS: Bush & Democrats to legalize criminals
From: Riginslinger
Date: 24 May 07 - 12:48 PM

The Inupiaq might be a little short of manpower, but the Latinos deffinately are not.

Subject: RE: BS: Bush & Democrats to legalize criminals
From: GUEST,Anti - Im
Date: 24 May 07 - 01:18 PM

Selective presentation of propaganda. That's really sharp. Any group that bases its very name on their race is, by definition, racist. As far as community service, Hitler's people were doing what THEY could to clean up communities, weren't they? I just don't like the La Raza part where they march millions strong on cue and threaten to kill Americans.

I can link to some tired old stories about the FBI infiltrating and leading KKK groups, and then contrast that to La Raza and Mecha screamers going on about killing whites, but why bother? If you know the problem is there and choose not to face it, I won't be able to change your mind. Listen to some of the audio clips at the libertypost link above. There are millions of pages of that hate on the internet now, from "the tan klan."

And I really do recommend you folks do a search for "The Terry Anderson Show" and go to his website...hell, I'll do it:

http://www.theterryandersonshow.com/

Maybe he has some shows archived there. He's a black man in southern California. A conservative. He's watched his home being overrun by criminal illegals while the cops are under orders to look the other way.

Subject: RE: BS: Bush & Democrats to legalize criminals
From: Peace
Date: 24 May 07 - 01:57 PM

The figure of 30,000,000 that seems to be being accepted is bullshit.

Subject: RE: BS: Bush & Democrats to legalize criminals
From: artbrooks
Date: 24 May 07 - 02:29 PM

Any group that bases its very name on their race is, by definition, racist. You do know, I assume, that Hispanic/Latino/Chicano is a cultural/linguistic definition rather than a race, right? This same theory thus applies to the NAACP, the Jewish Anti-Defamation League, the American Irish Historical Society, the Chinese-American Citizens Alliance, the Catholic Church...

Sorry, but the blatant bigotry is too much for me. I hope that you are able to find a nice cozy WASP enclave, with a good sheet laundry, and never need help from anyone who don't meet your definition of purity.

Subject: RE: BS: Bush & Democrats to legalize criminals
From: GUEST
Date: 24 May 07 - 03:49 PM

"I would agree that the huge majority of the immigrants are innocent pawns in this struggle, but so are native born American workers." - You got that right, Riginslinger.

Anytime racism comes into play, the workers on both sides are conquered and the businessman wins. This is just a way for irresponsible businesses to avoid criminal prosecution for hiring illegals. If the politicians do anything, they should be seeking enforcment of the law which prohibits the hiring of illegals. Instead, they pit the workers against each other.

Its an old game that appeals to racists and it works every time; especially in America.

Its called exploitation of the ignorant.

Subject: RE: BS: Bush & Democrats to legalize criminals
From: Riginslinger
Date: 24 May 07 - 04:10 PM

"Its called exploitation of the ignorant."


            The really sad part of it is, there are a number of us out here who can see what's going on, but we seem to be helpless to do anything about it.

Subject: RE: BS: Bush & Democrats to legalize criminals
From: GUEST,Anti - Im
Date: 24 May 07 - 04:32 PM

You sure get pissy when confronted with reason, artbrooks. "La Raza." The Race. They are THE race, according to their self-identification. You don't have a problem with that? Then I guess you're fine with the Aryan Nation. It's just words, right?

As far as "fine the employers," it's being done. But why isn't "deport the illegals" being done? The news shows you 13 here, 110 there, but what about the 100+ that congregate every morning in the post office parking lot where I sometimes stop, 30 miles away? I complain every time to the postal workers inside, and they couldn't care less. One day I heard a man sitting on the curb speaking freakin' Arabic into a cell phone, and the postal workers didn't care. The criminal illegals know they are protected by the federal government, so they congregate in the P.O. parking lot and wait for contractors to pick them up for day-work. The cops then ticket the contractors and NEVER ASK THE ILLEGALS FOR I.D. I walk over and complain to the cops when I see that happening near the parking lot, and luckily we haven't reached the point yet where they beat me down and arrest me--they just say they're "enforcing the law" and cannot even look me in they eye as they utter the words.

By the way, you Americans, boycot Home Depot. They have "refreshment centers" for illegal aliens. The illegals can lounge around and wait for contractors to come out of the store after buying supplies. Home Depot actually provides accommodations to known criminals who are waiting to be picked up for day labor. I just found out about this. I'll never spend another penny there.

Subject: RE: BS: Bush & Democrats to legalize criminals
From: Q (Frank Staplin)
Date: 24 May 07 - 06:14 PM

Send some of those immigrants to Canada. Shopped at Home Depot last night.
Can't get a house re-roofed. Labor all tied up in the housing boom.

Subject: RE: BS: Bush & Democrats to legalize criminals
From: Riginslinger
Date: 24 May 07 - 07:02 PM

Wait a minute. It looks like the housing boom is about to crash.

Subject: RE: BS: Bush & Democrats to legalize criminals
From: Riginslinger
Date: 30 May 07 - 10:10 PM

"I am reminded of the Know-Nothing Party of the 1950, who were also anti-immigrant. Rather than being anti-Hispanic, they were anti-Irish and anti-Catholic; one of their "accomplishments" was destroying the stone that the Pope had sent for inclusion in the Washington Monument, then under construction. Like many of the current crop of anti-immigrants, hey also felt that the allegedly higher birth-rate among Catholics and the Irish in particular would destroy American culture."

    artbrooks--I think you meant the 1860's. But one of the big differences is, in 1860 the world population was about 1.8 billion. Now it is about 6 billion. By the year 2050 it is expected to reach 9 billion.

                This population growth is largely coming from those parts of the world where ancient superstitions say population growth is a good thing. In parts of the world where reality has taken hold, population growth has dropped off. Therefore, human migration, from areas of intense population concentrations to areas of moderate concentration threatens the very continued existance of the planet.

Subject: RE: BS: Bush & Democrats to legalize criminals
From: Ebbie
Date: 30 May 07 - 10:48 PM

"freakin' Arabic"

Thank God there's nothing racist about that.