95 years old, can't have a bath on NHS!

Subject: RE: 95 years old, can't have a bath on NHS!
From: Lizzie Cornish 1
Date: 07 Oct 09 - 01:27 PM

"Now lots of overworked NHS and Social Services staff will be spending long hours of their valuable time justifying their actions to a bunch of journalists who couldn't really care less as long as they get a sensationalist story that fits their own agenda."

Could I just get this straight, please.

The Occupational Therapist *herself* asked me to go right to the top with this one.

They are at the blunt end of this, having to tell the patients that they can't have this and they can't have that, whilst those at the top hide behind closed doors and leave them to get on with it all, whilst not giving a hoot about their patients.

I've worked with doctors and nurses and I know how damn hard they work, how terrible, at times, their lives are with what they have to see, do and cope with. I have nothing but admiration for them.

The OT came back 15 minutes later with all the details for me, because she wanted me to complain.


So...put that in your pipe and smoke it, sonny. Yeesh!


Show of Hands, jeddy, wrote 'Cutthroats Crooks and Conmen' a wonderful song about what is happening and who this land is being run by. It was written under a Tory govt. but it applies just as much, if not more, today.

Show of Hands are part of the reason I found my voice.

Sadly, they too wanted it stopped.

Luckily, as you will see by the Insubordination Smiley on my Myspace page, I don't listen to even them....

Yes, I will let you know of the outcome about all this.

One outcome is that Vi too has found her voice...and when BT sent her a rude letter telling her she was overdue in her payment of her bill and she had better pay immediately (despite only having had the line put in a week before) she, instead of handing me the bill, rang them herself and wiped the floor with them for sending out such a worriesome letter.

She spent ages reading it, through her magnifying glass, as she's registered blind..then wrote out her customer reference number in HUGE letters so that she could quote it to them.

At 95 she has turned into a fighter..

Subject: RE: 95 years old, can't have a bath on NHS!
From: jacqui.c
Date: 07 Oct 09 - 01:29 PM

If Lizzie really cared about Vi she would do something PRACTICAL to make sure that she could use the bath.

Surely the old lady's safety and comfort, for the small amount that it would cost, is worth more than screaming about a principle right now. Vi even offered to pay for the handle herself but Lizzie says no. How much does that show here care for the individual against her wanting to take up another cause.

Subject: RE: 95 years old, can't have a bath on NHS!
From: Lizzie Cornish 1
Date: 07 Oct 09 - 01:48 PM

Look, the WHOLE point of getting the Occupational therapist IN was so that she could asses Vi, see what she needed, see her getting in and out of the bath etc....

I phoned for that appointment the day after we moved here...and believe me, jacqui, I was stressed beyond belief at the time...

I was told I'd have to wait SEVEN weeks for an appointment and at no time was I told that she'd probably never get any help anyway.

If I'd been told that, I'd have kicked up a stink anyway, done the same thing, but I waited because I felt that she was the right person to see.

I bathed Vi myself, but it was a disaster, because she was very distressed over the lack of privacy. She's fiercely independant and has always managed with handles on the wall before.

The seat is far more cumbersome for her and you have to have handles on the bath itself, in front of the seat, to push yourself in and out. She can't cope with the thought of that and they'd not supply it anyway.

I will ensure that now, something is done immediately. Had I known about this crazy state of affairs 7 weeks back, I'd have made other arrangements back then, as well as shouting out about it.

jacqui, I'm afraid I take offence at your remarks, because I've looked after 3 out of 4 of my 'parents and parents-in-law' since my daughter was one year old. I've barely ever had a time when I've just had my own little family to care for, because others needed help to...and at times it's been exhausting and upsetting, but I damn well gritted my teeth and did it.

so please do not dare suggest that I'm not caring for Vi as I should be, because that really gets up my nose.

Thank you..

And as you are English, you should know and understand what is at principle here. You may think it's fine for Torbay Care Trust to behave as they've done, I didn't...and to be honest, neither does their OT lady, or the man in the Complaints Department that I rang.

I'm no snivelling coward and if something's wrong, I'll damn well say it, no matter what.


However, please do not let any of my words above stop you from the usual lizzie bashing...

Subject: RE: 95 years old, can't have a bath on NHS!
From: SINSULL
Date: 07 Oct 09 - 02:05 PM

I think Jacqui's point is that when you were told it would take seven weeks before you could see the OT and arrange for the railing, why not simply install it yourself? It costs less than $20. You have a builder on site and a fifteen year old eager to learn how to build things. Vi herself wanted to pay for it.

Then continue the fight to have the appropriate agency pay for it.

You would be exactly where you are now and Vi would have had a decent bath every day for the past two months.

Subject: RE: 95 years old, can't have a bath on NHS!
From: Mrs.Duck
Date: 07 Oct 09 - 02:19 PM

Quite frankly I'd have a lot more sympathy if you just stopped whinging on and on ad nauseum.

Subject: RE: 95 years old, can't have a bath on NHS!
From: mandotim
Date: 07 Oct 09 - 02:23 PM

I watched your interview Lizzie; credit where it's due, you handled yourself and the interview well. Why not try the calm and rational approach elsewhere? Here, for example? A spot of listening would help, although you seem to think that not listening is a virtue. Sinsull is right; you could have had this fixed by now if you hadn't been so preoccupied with your own agenda of 'heroic, insubordinate Lizzie fights the State'. From personal experience, I reckon it's a 15 minute job to fix a handrail fit for the purpose. How long have you wasted on this pointless campaign, when you could have fixed the problem?
Incidentally, if I'd been in the OT's position, I'd have told you to take your complaints to the top as well; they are trained to say this to stop their patients being upset by ranting relatives. That doesn't change the fact that time and resources have and will be wasted responding to your actions. By the way, if it's ok for you call me, a man in his 50s, 'Sonny', is it ok for me to call you 'Silly Old Biddy'? Just wondered.

Subject: RE: 95 years old, can't have a bath on NHS!
From: Lizzie Cornish 1
Date: 07 Oct 09 - 02:38 PM

I am an old biddy, so you can call me what you want, sonny.

Nope, sorry....I left it for the OT to come here because I wanted it done properly. Vi puts a great deal of pull on handles when she gets in and out, and no way would I do a bodged job for her.

It's taken over 6 weeks to get her medical notes transferred over here, and that was with them speeding things up! ????

You guys just don't get it..this is not about me, it's about a Care Trust that doesn't care...and the fact most of you have overlooked that point, other than Villan, who used to live here, so he understands what this is about...all you can do is see 'the bad side of lizzie' yet again and off you all go.....

You tell me over and over to read what's written, act on it and stop ranting...

Well, maybe, just maybe, some of you should do exactly the same.



There are times when I feel just like Winston................

Subject: RE: 95 years old, can't have a bath on NHS!
From: mandotim
Date: 07 Oct 09 - 02:57 PM

Thanks for the permission Lizzie, I'll do my best to oblige. I've read everything you've posted in this thread and many others over the years. Carefully, and generally with an open mind. I've supported your ideas from time to time, and disagreed at other times. The problem here is that I actually know for certain what I'm talking about here, I have direct experience both in my professional and private life. Someone as self-obsessed as you probably won't care about this, but aside from my mother's hip replacements, one of the factors that contributed to the death of my blind, disabled kid brother earlier this year was the failure of a private landlord to fix a handrail by some dangerous steps down to my brother's flat. He fell, was unconcious for three days, and in all likelihood this precipitated the Addisonian Crisis that killed him. I tried to fix the handrail myself, but the landlord threatened to have me arrested for vandalising his property. He too was seen as 'not a priority case', as his family regularly made the 260 mile round trip to clean his flat and check he was ok. Don't you dare presume to lecture me about caring and problems with equipment.
In my professional life I have been involved in investigating some of these cases, and in redesigning services to provide better care. I know how this system works, and all that people like you do is slow it down and make it even less efficient. There is a complaints procedure you could have used,and there are lots of avenues you could have explored to get this small job done even if you are not competent to do it yourself. Whatever; Vi would have been able to have a bath ages ago, and wouldn't have had to suffer the indignities you describe.
Your self obsession and total lack of self awareness, coupled with the inability to listen to sound advice has caused more distress for Vi than was necessary. Silly Old Biddy doesn't begin to cover it. I'm out of here.

Subject: RE: 95 years old, can't have a bath on NHS!
From: Wesley S
Date: 07 Oct 09 - 03:08 PM

Winston Churchill? As in dead?

"this is not about me"

At this point it's debatable. And I would think that the best way to make sure that people don't "Lizzie bash" here is to not leave yourself open for bashing.....

Unless you enjoy it.

Subject: RE: 95 years old, can't have a bath on NHS!
From: SINSULL
Date: 07 Oct 09 - 03:13 PM

Actually it is about 95 year old woman forced to perch unsafely in a basin for eight weeks or do without bathing. That is obscene.

Of course, a professional licensed builder could not possibly safely install a household device that most people install themselves without a problem. I can see that...all too clearly.

Subject: RE: 95 years old, can't have a bath on NHS!
From: Wesley S
Date: 07 Oct 09 - 03:15 PM

Check here for info

Subject: RE: 95 years old, can't have a bath on NHS!
From: Lizzie Cornish 1
Date: 07 Oct 09 - 03:23 PM

No, another Winston......

Subject: RE: 95 years old, can't have a bath on NHS!
From: Lizzie Cornish 1
Date: 07 Oct 09 - 03:32 PM

Actually, Tim...you still don't get it.

I did it so that it would blow this problem open, get others talking about it....

But off you go again..."You're so self-obsessed, Lizzie!" yadda yadda yadda...

yup, and that's why I've looked after 3 out of 4 of my elderly parents and in-laws...total self obsession, right?

No, Vi wanted to have the people come to see if they could help her. She told me she'd be fine for a few weeks washing down, as they'd be here soon enough...Ha!

She never wants to be any trouble to anyone, just gets on with things every single day...

She managed fine with handrails before, absolutely fine but nope, that wasn't even taken into consideration, because the seat and handles were recommended, and then the use of the shower, being hand-held.

The builder didn't fit any handles because er....Torbay Care Trust were er...on their way round to do that for her, or so I so stupidly thought...

There was far more in that interview, FAR more, with far more passion and anger too, but he already said, before we started, that the BBC have to be very careful what they allow on, in case of legal action being taken....and they've had several run in's with the Care Trust before....so what you got was the beige bland and boring part...but that doesn't matter, because it will have touched other people, made them feel a little angry too..and perhaps make them fight as well, for their relatives.

This situation is wrong, as are many other things in this country, and if we do not stand together and use our voices, in an ever increasing sound proofed world, then we will never be heard.

You get the Health Service you deserve I guess...and it seems to me that most here want the NHS to do less and less and less, whilst those at the top take more and more and more...

This is NOT about me....but as ever, that's what you guys will spin around to because your heads are always facing the wrong path.

I'm sorry about your brother, mandotim, extremely sorry.

Subject: RE: 95 years old, can't have a bath on NHS!
From: Lizzie Cornish 1
Date: 07 Oct 09 - 03:48 PM

"Don't you see that the whole aim of Newspeak is to narrow the range of thought?...

Has it ever occurred to you, Winston, that by the year 2050, at the very latest, not a single human being will be alive who could understand such a conversation as we are having now?... The whole climate of thought will be different. In fact, there will be no thought, as we understand it now. Orthodoxy means not thinking—not needing to think. Orthodoxy is unconsciousness."
- George Orwell, 1984, Book 1, Chapter 5


"I heard an Ol' Biddy say today that Social Services used to provide free handrails for the elderly, so that they could have a bath? And it got worse, because she went on to say that once, District Nurses used to visit those who needed help, at home, care for them and bath them in their own homes! Of course, we realised she was raving mad....because people have always had to pay for everything to do with their medical care in Torquayiana"

Subject: RE: 95 years old, can't have a bath on NHS!
From: jacqui.c
Date: 07 Oct 09 - 04:42 PM

I've always been of the opinion that, while State help can be available, if it is possible for a person or their family to take care of relatively simple matters then that is the way to go. Over reliance on State help just adds to the tax burden on the whole community and means that. possibly, someone who cannot do for themselves may get overlooked.

All we seem to be hearing from you, Lizzie, is a diatribe about the 'fat cats' who, you say are taking the cream here. Do you really think, that if these people exist, they will be the ones to take the heat when this kind of storm in a teacup blows up? They won't. It will be someone a lot further down the totem pole who will be made a scapegoat for this kind of nonsense.

Villan had the right idea - find a solicitor to deal with the matter IF it is worth the aggravation. That is what most sensible people would do if it wasn't a problem that they could solve themselves.
insofar as this problem goes - the solution would have been so simple. My daughter's parents in law are in their 70s and are going on frail. Their FAMILY help them out and, if they were in this situation, the grab handles would have been put up when the problem first arose. I would not dream of leaving someone I cared about in such a situation for so long a time, in spite of their protestations.

Subject: RE: 95 years old, can't have a bath on NHS!
From: artbrooks
Date: 07 Oct 09 - 05:26 PM

Perhaps there is some entitlement to have this work performed by some governmental office, at some level. If so, in the US at least, there would be a work order submitted and in due course (2-3 weeks at the quickest) a team of two carpenters would sent out, at $25 per hour each, to do the work...which would take at least two hours. The grab bar(s) would have been purchased on a low-bid basis, from a manufacturer in Bangladesh, for twice what they'd cost on the open market. There might also be a supervisor ($35/hour) along later to inspect. The total cost, passed on to the taxpayer, would be on the order of $250. The alternative, of course, would be to buy the bars at the hardware store for $15, install them, and attempt (futilely) to get reimbursed. I guess it all depends on what's important to you.

Subject: RE: 95 years old, can't have a bath on NHS!
From: Folkiedave
Date: 07 Oct 09 - 06:35 PM

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/england/cornwall/8295585.stm

Subject: RE: 95 years old, can't have a bath on NHS!
From: The Sandman
Date: 07 Oct 09 - 06:42 PM

Lizzie is attempting to look after her ex mother in law,that in itself is worthy,she is trying to get a problem sorted,which involves bureaucracy,which can be very frustrating.
she feels the need to come on here and let off steam[that is understandable too].
to attribute to her ulterior motives,as some of the posters have done,is unpleasant and debasing.

Subject: RE: 95 years old, can't have a bath on NHS!
From: jacqui.c
Date: 07 Oct 09 - 07:42 PM

The problem need not involve bureaucracy. It is a simple problem that could be resolved very easily with a trip to a hardware store.

With statements such as

I told her about the corruption, the apathy, the Orwellian times we now live in, the bastards who see 95 year olds as just more fodder to cut back on, whilst they wine and dine themselves in their posh bloody offices!!!

They count their pennies...they make us work for 6 hours, on basic wages with no tea breaks, no lunch breaks, even telling us that if we WANT a tea break, they'll take 15 minutes OFF our salary!!!???????????


And meanwhile..the Fatcatprats grin their 'Cheshire' grins....and lap up the cream from the money they've just saved from yet another little old lady bewildered and apologetic, who has, through no choice of her own, given in.

it's hard to see that this is not just another of Lizzie's diatribes against all the ills that she sees in the state of the world. We've seen it oh so often recently and it gets a bit difficult to take it seriously after a while.

Subject: RE: 95 years old, can't have a bath on NHS!
From: kendall
Date: 07 Oct 09 - 07:48 PM

Not long ago I almost broke my shin bone from slipping in the tub. I bought a handle and two screws, installed it myself, genius not required, and have used it ever since.

Subject: RE: 95 years old, can't have a bath on NHS!
From: Rasener
Date: 07 Oct 09 - 07:55 PM

Bloody hell Kendall, that must have been very painful sticking those screws in your shin :-)

I think Lizzie's MIL looks a very nice lady and its a crying shame it couldn't have been dealt with, without all the kerfuffle.
It is very important that she manages to look after herself as long as possible. Going into nursing care is aweful, as i saw with my mother.

Keep going VI.

Subject: RE: 95 years old, can't have a bath on NHS!
From: Don Firth
Date: 08 Oct 09 - 03:26 PM

Hey, it can happen!

On February 15th, 2000, I managed to deck myself in the bathroom. Broken left femur, wound up in the hospital for about three weeks. I came out with a titanium rod in my left femur held in place by four screws.

Dunno if sticking the screws in was painful. Thanks to a good anesthesiologist, I think I was orbiting Saturn while it was being done.

I now have grab bars all over the bathroom. I had a contractor install them (professional job, bolted to studs, good and solid). It never occurred to me to try to get some government agency to pay to have it done.

Don Firth

P. S. I haven't tried to go through an airport metal detector since that particular installation. I'd probably drive them bananas!

Subject: RE: 95 years old, can't have a bath on NHS!
From: SINSULL
Date: 08 Oct 09 - 03:41 PM

Kendall's fall was a scary event for the entire Kendall Groupie Community. He cut his nose. We watched breathlessly as it healed without a scar fortunately. Jacqui wouldn't let us enshrine the scab.

Subject: RE: 95 years old, can't have a bath on NHS!
From: Herga Kitty
Date: 08 Oct 09 - 04:40 PM

Well, the story of Lizzie's MIL has made it onto the BBC news website

Kitty

Subject: RE: 95 years old, can't have a bath on NHS!
From: SINSULL
Date: 08 Oct 09 - 04:47 PM

Yes. It appeared yesterday. There are links above.

Subject: RE: 95 years old, can't have a bath on NHS!
From: Folkiedave
Date: 08 Oct 09 - 05:11 PM

Bit of thread drift. Gavin Atkin, a great singer Duet player and fiddle player down in the Kent area fell over and broke his ankle. He is now known as Gavin "Ten Bolts" Atkin.

Subject: RE: 95 years old, can't have a bath on NHS!
From: Don Firth
Date: 08 Oct 09 - 06:07 PM

Careful with your neck.

CLICKY

Don Firth

Subject: RE: 95 years old, can't have a bath on NHS!
From: GUEST,Jenny Brampton
Date: 08 Oct 09 - 07:32 PM

Learn to smile before you kill

JB

Subject: RE: 95 years old, can't have a bath on NHS!
From: jeddy
Date: 09 Oct 09 - 07:47 AM

what news lizzie??????

it wouldn't suprise me if you get some nice builder offering to fit handles for free. people can be wonderfully suprising, even nowadays.

TCA

jade x x x

Subject: RE: 95 years old, can't have a bath on NHS!
From: Lizzie Cornish 1
Date: 09 Oct 09 - 08:02 AM

The lccal paper has just left, after ringing up to ask if they could follow up on the story. They're after Torbay Care Trust for many things, and find the same as the BBC, a wall of silence hidden behind...'We're following Government Guidelines'..

At the moment, they're trying to close down a Respite Care centre in Torquay, the John Parkes centre, where severely disabled children are taken care of for a while to give their parents a break.

Torbay Care Trust says it costs too much to run and the children can be just as well cared for by 'trained families' in their own homes..

Age Concern will fit things for free. The elderly though, have to buy them.

This isn't just about Vi, jeddy, it's about all the other Vi's and Vic's out there who have no one to fight for them, whilst they struggle to get by on a meagre pension, often with no family or friends around them to help out.

It never used to be this way, and THAT is the danger here, that so many people have become so compliant to 'The New Criteria' without even bothering to ask what cutbacks those at the top are making...

Yes, we are in a recession, but the cutbacks start at the TOP, with those who sit in plush offices, driving plush cars, often company ones, who have large homes and large bank balances...It should NOT start with the people at the bottom, let alone when some of those people are 95 years old. As I said, Vi is lucky, she's looked after well and has others to fight for her, many don't have that at all, and this is about THEM.

The more you make a population feel that 'this should be bought by you, and that should be bought by you'...and the more the population gives in to that, BELIEVES it, then the more you are staring a private medical world in the face...

I am NOT knocking ANY National Health Carers here, the medical side, that is, but I sure am knocking the managerial side who make these decisions and then stay locked away from the very people who are affected by their decisions, whilst continuing to live their comfortable lives.

Subject: RE: 95 years old, can't have a bath on NHS!
From: Rasener
Date: 09 Oct 09 - 09:48 AM

The John Parkes unit is a wonderful unit.

Both our daughters used to go there for diagnosis and help with ADHD and Autism. The staff were wonderful and two people in particular got top ratings from me. His name was David Schurer - I think he was German. Brilliant man and a lady called Rosie Wagstaff an amazing lady.

As I used to go with my daughters for every trip there, I did get to know the staff from the Respite unit. It is just the most amazing unit going.

I hope they do not close it.

Lizzie is ther a petition for the John Parkes Unit please.

Subject: RE: 95 years old, can't have a bath on NHS!
From: Rasener
Date: 09 Oct 09 - 10:09 AM

Lizzie
Just so things don't get taken out of context about the John Parkes Unit, I will be posting the very latest press release which is being sent to me from the person in Torbay Hospital who is responsible for the units well being. I have just been chatting too her.
As soon as I get it, I will post it on here.

Subject: RE: 95 years old, can't have a bath on NHS!
From: Rasener
Date: 09 Oct 09 - 10:24 AM

OK here is an earlier press release concerning John Parkes Unit

Torbay Care Trust and NHS Devon
Joint press statement
11 September 2009
A spokesman said:
"Firstly we like to say thank you to all of the parents and carers from Torbay and Devon who attended today's meeting.
"This was a really useful and valuable opportunity for us to discuss the concerns and aspirations regarding respite and short breaks services for children. It also enabled us to set out a clear way forward for the development of services, through working in close partnership with the families involved.
"Most importantly, today's meeting gave us the opportunity to tell parents and carers that the John Parkes Unit will remain open.
"All of those involved in providing and commissioning services at the Unit understand the value of the care which it provides, currently for around 19 families.
"However, we know that there are more than 2,000 families in Torbay and Devon who require respite and short breaks care and we are committed to developing flexible services which are able to meet the needs of as many families as possible.
"Some key actions have arisen as a result of today's meeting which will enable us to start making some positive progress.
"Firstly we will begin a process of reviewing the needs of every child currently receiving care in the Unit in order to ensure we are providing the right care in the right way.
"We have also pledged to set up a working party with parents and carers, healthcare and social workers to enable the John Parkes Unit to evolve into a service which is able to benefit the maximum number of families."

Subject: RE: 95 years old, can't have a bath on NHS!
From: Lizzie Cornish 1
Date: 09 Oct 09 - 10:29 AM

Thank you, Villan...

And *that* is why it is so important NEVER to give in, back down, or stop shouting, because if those parents hadn't stood up against Torbay Care Trust, if the press hadn't joined with them, bringing in many others to protest, then I've no doubt they'd have simply gone ahead and closed it.

Great news.

Subject: RE: 95 years old, can't have a bath on NHS!
From: Rasener
Date: 09 Oct 09 - 10:29 AM

And here is the very latest press release, issue today, concerning the John Parkes Unit. I have copied and pasted it from the Herald Express as sometimes lnks get outdated.

Disabled unit 'could be centre of excellence'
Thursday, September 17, 2009, 09:30
BAY health bosses have pledged commitment to the John Parkes Unit despite concerns about its future funding.

The Torbay Care Trust board heard the eight-bed respite centre at Torbay Hospital's annexe could become a 'centre of excellence', for Torbay's most disabled children.

But it will need to adapt to meet changing needs and provide better value for money.

The unit is currently used by 10 children in Torbay and nine from the Devon Primary Care Trust area.

But it could face a 50 per cent funding cut if the Devon trust decides not to continue using the unit in shake-up plans of its respite services.

Sharon Matson, director of commissioning, told yesterday's meeting: "We have no intention to close the unit and we want to work with parents and staff to look at how we can redesign it to make it into a centre of excellence for children in Torbay.

"Devon needs to go back and assess its children's needs and how it intends to commission for those needs.

"If Devon decided, and there has been no formal change in that status, that they do not want to buy services from John Parkes that leaves us with a financial loss of about 50 per cent."

But Strete parent Charlotte Stephens, 23, told the board she had already been told the unit had not bid for the Devon's renewed contract.

And her own respite care for three-year-old Bella will not be renewed 'because it is not on Devon's menu of respite care,' she told the meeting.

Chief executive Anthony Farnsworth agreed there were 'inconsistencies' in what has been said to parents.

But he reiterated his commitment for the parents of Torbay.

And even if Devon did pull out, the trust would tailor the unit to meet financial constraints.

Torbay parent Julia Melluish spoke on behalf of Bay parents concerned there were still plans to close the unit.

"Parents have been told by key workers they need to get on a waiting list for other respite services for when the unit closes," she said.

"I trust what you are saying here but there are different messages coming from other quarters.

"Why would social and key workers make it up?"

Mrs Matson said she did not know where those messages had originated.

"We are committed to make it financially viable and successful," she said.

Subject: RE: 95 years old, can't have a bath on NHS!
From: Lizzie Cornish 1
Date: 09 Oct 09 - 10:50 AM

Hmmmmmmmmm...........

Subject: RE: 95 years old, can't have a bath on NHS!
From: manitas_at_work
Date: 10 Oct 09 - 03:31 AM

"It never used to be like that.." Particularly pre-NHS it didn't people just got on with it and were helped by relatives rather than waiting around for government agencies to do it.

Overall, the NHs is great but we've gotten to rely too much on it.